5047 Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:15:57 -0700
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Konstantin Zahariev,
The influence of European rhythms in the Tango is via the Habanera (Spain).
Pompeyo Camps draws a parallel between ragtime and tango in the way the USA
black musicians utilized polkas and European rhythms in the formation of the
ragtime to obtain a dual race type of music. In the same way, Argentines of
black descendent received European influence from the Habanera in the formation
of the first forms of Tango.
The result between ragtime and tango is the similarity of rhythms; the parallel
is that early Tangos and Milongas have parts of cakewalks and ragtime music.
The proof is in some of the music left behind by the pianist Manuel O.
Campoamor a.k.a. "El Negro".
Another source of European influence in the tango dance is given by Jose
Gobello, who explains that Tango was a peculiar way to dance Mazurca in the
areas adjacent to the port in Buenos Aires.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:04:09 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707181504g3b3d9f08idece09433b88151@mail.gmail.com>
Dear Bruno,
Tango borrowed the cuban habanera rhythm pattern. The spanish habanera
is derived from the cuban habanera as it came to Spain and got adopted
there.
Secondly, ragtime itself is connected to West African and Haitian drum
lines (time lines). I am not sure what we are arguing about here. As
far as I remember, I did not claim that there has never been any
influence from Europe on the development of the musical form; my
comments were in the strict context of replying to claims about
influences of european _rhythms_ on tango.
We should also separate the development of the musical form from the
development of the dance form. Some of your examples below are about
the dance form which I have thoughts on but have not addressed.
Lastly, you say "early Tangos and Milongas have parts of cakewalks and
ragtime music.". As far as I can tell there were no milongas in the
sense of post-1930 milonga, and the ones before that were folk music
forms not associated with tango.
As to cakewalk, you may be referring to the popular
sixteenth-eight-sixteenth note combination. That one is actually
present in several countries (Cuba, Brazil, USA) and, if memory
serves, in many national/popular dances and it can all be traced,
again, back to west african/haitian drum time lines.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/18/07, romerob@telusplanet.net <romerob@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Konstantin Zahariev,
>
> The influence of European rhythms in the Tango is via the Habanera (Spain).
> Pompeyo Camps draws a parallel between ragtime and tango in the way the USA
> black musicians utilized polkas and European rhythms in the formation of the
> ragtime to obtain a dual race type of music. In the same way, Argentines of
> black descendent received European influence from the Habanera in the formation
> of the first forms of Tango.
>
> The result between ragtime and tango is the similarity of rhythms; the parallel
> is that early Tangos and Milongas have parts of cakewalks and ragtime music.
> The proof is in some of the music left behind by the pianist Manuel O.
> Campoamor a.k.a. "El Negro".
>
> Another source of European influence in the tango dance is given by Jose
> Gobello, who explains that Tango was a peculiar way to dance Mazurca in the
> areas adjacent to the port in Buenos Aires.
>
>
> Bruno
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Konstantin Zahariev
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 10:01 AM
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] On the influence of european rhythms in Tango
>
> On 7/17/07, romerob@telusplanet.net <romerob@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> > >On European rhythms which influenced Tango:
> >
> > By Pompeyo Camps , "Tango and Ragtime: a parallel in time and distance"
> > Cultural Service of the United States of America, Buenos Aires
> > 1976
> > publication, "The African influence in Tango has been primorial" Newspaper "La
> > Opinion", Buenos Aires, March 12, 1977.
> >
> > ....The band - that historical institution of the United States with its
> > marching pieces and polkas of european origin. They furnished black pianists
> > the emulsifying agent of the music of a dual race. It was the 2/4 measure "in
> > tempo de marcia", the way music was notated by Joplin ( or Slow march tempo)
> > with the classic accompaniment of the double bass in 1/4 notes and music
> chords
> > in contratempo of 1/8 notes. This corresponds to the pianist's playing with
> his
> > left hand, while with the right hand plays the cut sincopations and the
> > displaced accents, which are characteristic of the African rhythms.
>
>
> This seems to be about US bands and seems to desribe ragtime. What are
> you trying to say?
>
>
> > On the working class who created tango:
> > If you mean the first forms of Tango you might be referring to soldiers and
> > women of black descent who appeared to be a subclass within a working class.
>
>
> I was talking about working class families living in conventillos, and
> gathering each night in the large interior yards to socialize, play
> music, dance.
>
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:59:51 -0700
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Konstantin Zahariev,
>>From "La musica en Cuba", by Alejandro Carpentier, Fondo de Cultura Economica,
Mejico 1967
.....When Argentina lost its blacks it needed that that the Tango rhythm return
>from Spain through the Zarzuela (Operetta or Musical Comedy) and from the
Habanera edited in Europe giving form to what is its national dance.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:15 PM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
Dear Bruno,
Tango borrowed the cuban habanera rhythm pattern. The spanish habanera
is derived from the cuban habanera as it came to Spain and got adopted
there.
Secondly, ragtime itself is connected to West African and Haitian drum
lines (time lines). I am not sure what we are arguing about here. As
far as I remember, I did not claim that there has never been any
influence from Europe on the development of the musical form; my
comments were in the strict context of replying to claims about
influences of european _rhythms_ on tango.
We should also separate the development of the musical form from the
development of the dance form. Some of your examples below are about
the dance form which I have thoughts on but have not addressed.
Lastly, you say "early Tangos and Milongas have parts of cakewalks and
ragtime music.". As far as I can tell there were no milongas in the
sense of post-1930 milonga, and the ones before that were folk music
forms not associated with tango.
As to cakewalk, you may be referring to the popular
sixteenth-eight-sixteenth note combination. That one is actually
present in several countries (Cuba, Brazil, USA) and, if memory
serves, in many national/popular dances and it can all be traced,
again, back to west african/haitian drum time lines.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:15:55 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707181715vda528aexe5cccbca6df9b470@mail.gmail.com>
Dear Bruno,
We can start a discussion about unsourced or poorly sourced claims
>from books or monographs, especially when on subject peripheral to the
main subject, especially from decades ago. I am really not being
contrarian here, despite appearances, just sceptical in a scientific
sense. I am aware of contradictory claims from different books. That
is why I tend to rely more on scientific (peer-reviewed) papers and/or
dissertations and theses, whenever possible.
And look at this sentence: "When Argentina lost its blacks it needed
that that the Tango rhythm return from Spain..." - raising all sorts
of flags already. Then ..." from the Habanera edited in Europe" - this
is not even a contradiction with the claim that the tango borrowed the
cuban habanera rhythm pattern (yes the spanish habanera had it as
well, since the spanish habanera was a cuban habanera that made it to
Europe).
It may be a matter of labelling preference to you and me, but a music
that has a haitian/west african rhythm pattern is not evidence to me
for european influence on the rhythm pattern of the tango. If
anything, its presence in european music is just evidence for
haitian/west african influence on the europeans, not the other way
around.
In parting, I think I have spent way too much time today on this. I
have to get my materials out and go through them again when I find the
time.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/18/07, romerob@telusplanet.net <romerob@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Konstantin Zahariev,
>
> >From "La musica en Cuba", by Alejandro Carpentier, Fondo de Cultura Economica,
> Mejico 1967
>
> .....When Argentina lost its blacks it needed that that the Tango rhythm return
> from Spain through the Zarzuela (Operetta or Musical Comedy) and from the
> Habanera edited in Europe giving form to what is its national dance.
>
> Bruno
> -----Original Message----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
> Konstantin Zahariev
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:15 PM
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Influence of European rhythms in the Tango
>
> Dear Bruno,
>
> Tango borrowed the cuban habanera rhythm pattern. The spanish habanera
> is derived from the cuban habanera as it came to Spain and got adopted
> there.
>
> Secondly, ragtime itself is connected to West African and Haitian drum
> lines (time lines). I am not sure what we are arguing about here. As
> far as I remember, I did not claim that there has never been any
> influence from Europe on the development of the musical form; my
> comments were in the strict context of replying to claims about
> influences of european _rhythms_ on tango.
>
> We should also separate the development of the musical form from the
> development of the dance form. Some of your examples below are about
> the dance form which I have thoughts on but have not addressed.
>
> Lastly, you say "early Tangos and Milongas have parts of cakewalks and
> ragtime music.". As far as I can tell there were no milongas in the
> sense of post-1930 milonga, and the ones before that were folk music
> forms not associated with tango.
>
> As to cakewalk, you may be referring to the popular
> sixteenth-eight-sixteenth note combination. That one is actually
> present in several countries (Cuba, Brazil, USA) and, if memory
> serves, in many national/popular dances and it can all be traced,
> again, back to west african/haitian drum time lines.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
>
>
>
>
>
