1498 Is the partner transcended?
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 09:59:46 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Is the partner transcended?
> Before anything, we are people who repeatedly have
> an almost mystical experience. It comes unbidden. It
> can never be called up on demand....
I've got a question about the transcendant experience
that some of you all have had dancing: did both
partners feel it? I have read and heard accounts of
people who had "flow experiences" in tango where it
seems like they verified afterwards that both partners
felt it. But is that a universal? Personal accounts?
And, please, don't be shy - I suspect the response "I
was alone" is one that will set off the bells with
some of our more frequent posters, but I'd like to
know the truth.
Marisa
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:45:11 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the partner transcended?
> people who had "flow experiences" in tango where it
> seems like they verified afterwards that both
> partners
> felt it. But is that a universal? Personal
> accounts?
Dear Marissa,
I believe that by the very nature of this experience
it can not occur without the open hearts of both
participants allowing it to. With this type of
connection, you indeed know how your partner is
feeling. If they are not feeling it, you just know.
And that prevents it from transcending. So, really
the only way that it happens is for two people at the
same time.
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 17:48:43 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the partner transcended?
Sometimes, no once in a blue moon, I flow with my partner (no-one specifice
it has happened with different people) so we both seem to reach new heights
and it can be ecstatic. So I think the transcendent state is when you stop
thinking and you flow instead. But I didn't stop to ask at the end if 'it
was good for her too.'
Guy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Is the partner transcended?
> > Before anything, we are people who repeatedly have
> > an almost mystical experience. It comes unbidden. It
>
> > can never be called up on demand....
>
> I've got a question about the transcendant experience
> that some of you all have had dancing: did both
> partners feel it? I have read and heard accounts of
> people who had "flow experiences" in tango where it
> seems like they verified afterwards that both partners
> felt it. But is that a universal? Personal accounts?
> And, please, don't be shy - I suspect the response "I
> was alone" is one that will set off the bells with
> some of our more frequent posters, but I'd like to
> know the truth.
>
> Marisa
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:42:18 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the partner transcended?
Sergio,
I would like to ask you (and anyone else) a couple of quick
questions about your transcendent tangos. I'm just looking for similarity
or difference with my experience.
1. Were you aware of leading steps, or even of her following steps? In my
experience I could only surmise that I had taken steps but could never
recall actually leading them. I just felt the music and the moving of my
partner with the music.
2. Hard to find words for this, hopefully you will find some sense in this
question. Was there a detailed almost magnified awareness of your
partner's movement so that there was a flow of mutual understanding,
almost like there was no questioning, the dance was just happening for you
both with out either of you seeming to make any decisions? The specific
transcendence I have in mind here is that lead/follow is transcended. It
must be happening but not by conscious deliberation. This question I
realize is redundant. I mean if I can't remember what steps I took how can
I remember leading them.
3. I find this implied in your description but don't want to assume. Was
your awareness of your partner and her moving, and dancing more detailed,
vivid, almost magnified compared to usual dancing? Did you find the music
to be more vivid and magnified so all kinds of details were present. It
did sound to me like you were experiencing what is sometimes called a time
dilation. And odd experience when experience becomes more detailed and
vivid and in a sense, slowed down doesn't make sense, but all the time
necessary, no pressure. This is described by some athletes also. I'm doing
a bad job of putting it in words hoping someone will improve on this or
will post an apt quote expressing how "flow" can feel like all the time in
the world is right there in the midst of all these multitudes of changes.
peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:45:26 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Is the partner transcended?
I have been dancing tango regularly for about ten years, what I described:
some sort of magical experience happened to me only twice. The first time
about one year after I started dancing regularly, and the second one about
three years ago. This second time some sort of unusual experience but of a
lesser degree occurred with the same person about two or three times more.
*"1. Were you aware of leading steps, or even of her following steps?"
No I was not aware of leading steps. It seemed that the dance was done in
automatic control. It took possession of my will. I obviously must have been
leading and she was following in perfect harmony, but I was not aware of
consciously leading any particular steps.
**"2.Was there a detailed almost magnified awareness of your
partner's movement so that there was a flow of mutual understanding,
almost like there was no questioning, the dance was just happening for you
both with out either of you seeming to make any decisions? "
Exactly as you describe it. The dance occurred, we were floating in the air,
going around the floor, very close to each other.
I knew she was there, but it was as if she was part of myself. Close to the
end I looked at her face for the first time and she looked back with her
oriental eyes, some tremor shook my whole body.
***3. 3." I find this implied in your description but don't want to assume.
Was
your awareness of your partner and her moving, and dancing more detailed,
vivid, almost magnified compared to usual dancing? Did you find the music
to be more vivid and magnified so all kinds of details were present. It
did sound to me like you were experiencing what is sometimes called a time
dilation. And odd experience when experience becomes more detailed and
vivid and in a sense, slowed down doesn't make sense, but all the time
necessary, no pressure. "
I knew that we were dancing in perfect synchronization with the music, in a
perfect way, naturally,effortlessly, floating in the air close to the floor
but without touching it. We moved together as one. I was not aware of her
movements. Nothing was magnified. Quite the opposite, everything seemed to
be foggy, distant, the music lower, the rest of the sound and the people
vanished. There was no pressure to rush, the time was there, I was not aware
that it was running. The Music stopping brought me back to reality.
I tried to think what other elements could have effected or affected this
type of condition.
The first time I was dancing with a person that was an excellent dancer. The
ambiance was perfect, that of an air conditioned room.
She was indifferent to me physically and I was ambivalent with respect to
her personality, although there was some spiritual connection of some
degree.
The second time occurred in a very distressing circumstance, I was
disappointed we were assigned a place outdoors on a ship on an evening of
bad weather, windy, rainy the floor rolling in such a way that it was
difficult to keep your balance.
The girl was a stranger, I did not know her but I felt physically attracted
to her.
I am 6'1'' tall, the two girls were tall close to 5'9'' perhaps. I
attributed to this matching of heights the perfect, comfortable embrace that
we shared.
I noticed in Argentina that many couples seem to be in some sort of trance
while dancing but when the music stops they go about their life as if
nothing had happened and I have never heard anyone talking about these type
of experience.
This is the first time I read a description very similar to what I
experienced.
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:14:59 -0700
From: Judy Stockinger <judytango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Is the partner transcended?
Sergio, Jonathan & list,
I think there are two types of transcendence being talked about here.
One is the type Sergio speaks of, where both partners are aware of it, (perhaps some pheremones or something else is at work here?) .
The other is where one partner may experience it independently of the other and to me that is more like a kind of "creative flow" type experience. Those of you who engage in other art forms probably can relate to this.
What do you think?
Judy
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 23:30:26 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the partner transcended?
Judy wrote:
> Sergio, Jonathan & list,
>
> I think there are two types of transcendence being talked about here.
Judy,
It's very difficult to talk about. Brain research is offering some
stuff. I'm still trying to figure out how to talk about it which is the
main reason I post to this list to get feedback as to whether I can
express this in ways that others can understand.
I am thinking transcendence is a large area and like other areas
of human activity there are many modes of expression. One thing about
posting to this list is that I need to work my thoughts to the point that
I can express them briefly. Many of my ideas I can't do that with yet. So,
I proceed slowly grateful for any leads people send me, or feedback that
lets me know if I'm unclear or clear.
Yes, I think both of those forms of transcendence are possible in
tango. Given my lumper orientation I tend to see them as different
expression of a common underlying process.
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:34:25 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the partner transcended?
Judy, Sergio, Jonathan, et al,
Thanks for your thoughts and experiences on a subject dear to my heart.
I think the transcendental tango under discussion is of only one type, and
involves a shared experience between partners. I've tried to verify this
whenever I have an especilaly good connection with a partner ("...did you
notice anything about our dance during the last third of that last
song...?") Invariably the partner confirms something. THe experiences
often seem to allow us different perspectives, and so they differ in detail
(I experienced a sweeping awareness of interior aspects of her body, she
experienced a gliding oneness with me). But I never hear that she's
thinking about her foot hurting, or that her boyfriend walked in the room.
I think the cloud of pheromones I generate with my partner can provide a
powerful furnace for revving up the connection - but there's no guarantees.
Pheromone research shows that not everybody responds to the same chemical
triggers. But the boy-girl dynamic combined with the loosening of
boundaries in the lead-follow dynamic certainly loads the dice in favor of
an experience of intense intimacy. The lead-follow and boy-girl stuff
primes the pump - then as the transpersonal fire kicks in, the steps
disappear, the leader and follower disappear, the music disappears - and
there is only The Dance...until the music stops.
The experience of time dilation, brighter colors, sharper vision, all seem
to connect for me with this experience of transcending my personal
boundaries to join with my partner. I've had this experience several times,
to different depths, for different lengths of time - but never longer than
one song. The first time, I'd only been dancing tango for three months.
Around Colorado, we frequently use the term "tango trance" (first planted
here by Daniel Trenner, I believe) to describe the event.
In the "tantric tango" class my partner and I are developing, we are seeking
to draw from other disciplines, spiritual paths, and world religious
traditions to synthesize ways to make this experience more repeatable,
deeper, and longer lasting. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that the
three thousand year history of Hindu temple dancing, for example, might well
have something to offer those who seek more transcendence in their tango. I
imagine that a community of tango dancers who valued this spiritual approach
to tango, and concsiously sought to get good at it, would be a great place
to dance, even for those who didn't subscribe to the spiritual approach.
"Tango your way to Heaven!"
Ever since this happened to me the first time, I've been "stalking the wild
tango trance." I really strongly believe that tango can serve as a
spiritual path, a profound sharing with my partner as a way to develop
clearer awareness of our shared spiritual essence, leading to a wider
sharing within our community...and on and on, all the way to Nirvana...
Of course, one can always just do tango as a way to get a date, too. ;>
Tango your way to Heaven,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
============================
"...after that tango, we are no longer strangers..."
--- Robert Heinlein, "The Number of the Beast"
============================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 16:20:42 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Is the partner transcended?
Dear list
Despite my short time dancing tango (3 years), I have had some kind of
transcendence a few times.
I agree, there are 2 two kinds: one is entirely my experience, and may not
be felt by my partner (although I trust she would at least be enjoying the
dance!).
The other involves both partners, but it feels to me (and in discussion with
a partner, feels similarly to her), that it is more than the sum of its
parts. Perhaps it is the 'mind of the duet' at work - 2 people, but one
mind, one dance?
OTOH, I know of leaders who report absolutely great dances, but the woman
dancing with them complains secretly to others of it being terrible. So I
guess it is likely I could be fooling myself too ...
Gary
Judy said:
> One is the type Sergio speaks of, where both partners are aware of it,
> (perhaps some pheremones or something else is at work here?) .
