5528 Kizomba, tango's African cousin
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:56:02 -0700
From: "Oleh Kovalchuke" <tangospring@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<e5c6fa070801291056j54a193c0h8cc89a56e1ec138a@mail.gmail.com>
How can anyone deny African roots of tango after watching this clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
--
Oleh Kovalchuke
https://www.tangospring.com
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:00:56 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: "Oleh Kovalchuke" <tangospring@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340801310600me713612m1cb8f786c63e33d9@mail.gmail.com>
On 1/29/08, Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@gmail.com> wrote:
> How can anyone deny African roots of tango after watching this clip?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
>
> --
> Oleh Kovalchuke
> https://www.tangospring.com
What I see is a white couple doing some tango steps to non-tango
music, loosely connected to the music, in front of a mostly white
audience. I doubt this was filmed in Africa.
If it hasn't already happened, this could spark a new trend at
Alternative 'Milongas'.
The music may be African, but the dance is an imitation of tango. I
would like to see what the real Kizomba looks like.
This is not to deny the African influence on tango, but it is not
demonstrated here.
Ron
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:30:26 -0700
From: "Oleh Kovalchuke" <tangospring@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<e5c6fa070801310630t7a86f068kdbeea8281e3ba44d@mail.gmail.com>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizomba
"Kizomba is one of the most popular genres of dance and music from
Angola. Sung generally in Portuguese, it is a genre of music with a
romantic flow mixed with African rhythm. The kizomba dancing style is
also known to be very sensual.
Kizomba is native to Angola, derived directly from zouk music with
influences from other Lusophone countries."
--
Oleh Kovalchuke
https://www.tangospring.com
On Jan 31, 2008 7:00 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois
<tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/29/08, Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@gmail.com> wrote:
> > How can anyone deny African roots of tango after watching this clip?
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
> >
> > --
> > Oleh Kovalchuke
> > https://www.tangospring.com
>
>
> What I see is a white couple doing some tango steps to non-tango
> music, loosely connected to the music, in front of a mostly white
> audience. I doubt this was filmed in Africa.
>
> If it hasn't already happened, this could spark a new trend at
> Alternative 'Milongas'.
>
> The music may be African, but the dance is an imitation of tango. I
> would like to see what the real Kizomba looks like.
>
> This is not to deny the African influence on tango, but it is not
> demonstrated here.
>
> Ron
>
--
Oleh Kovalchuke
Interaction Design is the Design of Time
https://www.tangospring.com/IxDtopicWhatIsInteractionDesign.htm
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:37:40 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Oleh,
Firstly, I'm not denying any African roots of Tango.
But your reasoning here totally escapes me. How does a very modern couple dancing
something that vaguely resembles Tango, to something that sounds like African music,
in any way demonstrate the African roots of Tango? I can dance some Tango steps to
an Irish jig - would that show the Irish roots of Tango?
Keith, HK
On Wed Jan 30 2:56 , "Oleh Kovalchuke" sent:
>How can anyone deny African roots of tango after watching this clip?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:50:38 -0800 (PST)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@gmail.com>, Tango Society of Central
Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Oleh,
Check out the bomba and plena music of Puerto Rico.
I think the instruments and the rhythms have similar
sources.
Nancy
Loves to dance.....almost everything!
--- Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizomba
>
> "Kizomba is one of the most popular genres of dance
> and music from
> Angola. Sung generally in Portuguese, it is a genre
> of music with a
> romantic flow mixed with African rhythm. The kizomba
> dancing style is
> also known to be very sensual.
>
> Kizomba is native to Angola, derived directly from
> zouk music with
> influences from other Lusophone countries."
>
> --
> Oleh Kovalchuke
> https://www.tangospring.com
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2008 7:00 AM, Tango Society of Central
> Illinois
> <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/29/08, Oleh Kovalchuke
> <tangospring@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > How can anyone deny African roots of tango after
> watching this clip?
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
> > >
> > > --
> > > Oleh Kovalchuke
> > > https://www.tangospring.com
> >
> >
> > What I see is a white couple doing some tango
> steps to non-tango
> > music, loosely connected to the music, in front of
> a mostly white
> > audience. I doubt this was filmed in Africa.
> >
> > If it hasn't already happened, this could spark a
> new trend at
> > Alternative 'Milongas'.
> >
> > The music may be African, but the dance is an
> imitation of tango. I
> > would like to see what the real Kizomba looks
> like.
> >
> > This is not to deny the African influence on
> tango, but it is not
> > demonstrated here.
> >
> > Ron
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oleh Kovalchuke
> Interaction Design is the Design of Time
>
https://www.tangospring.com/IxDtopicWhatIsInteractionDesign.htm
>
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:03:18 -0500
From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<4f5d14730801310703x14990de6g85cdfda6c99820f3@mail.gmail.com>
> On Wed Jan 30 2:56 , "Oleh Kovalchuke" sent:
>
> >How can anyone deny African roots of tango after watching this clip?
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch\?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
Everyone should bear in mind that a lot of the youtube clips about
kizomba are from salsa/dance festivals where the dance has suffered
several evolutions. Most of these dancers dance salsa, tango, kizomba,
and other dances. It's normal that they start including parts from
another.
I have friends that have african origins and they go out and dance
kizomba. It never seemed so refined or polished :)
There's also a lot of styling... which is not usual. kizomba is a very
sensual/sexual dance and that's why a lot of people like it. It's
similar to tango in some ways, of course...
I thought it was pretty much well accepted that tango has had some
african (from slaves) origins. Is it not the case?
b
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:14:54 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Oleh,
The problem with Wikepedia is that anybody can write anything. And,
that particular article is preceded by the note:
This article does not cite any references or sources. (June 2007)
You're gonna have to do much better than this to demonstrate any
of the origins of Tango or anything else.
Modern Kizomba looks like a lot of fun btw, but that's all you've shown
us so far.
What I'd be interested in is what Kizomba looked like in the mid-19th
century - not what it looks like today.
Keith, HK
On Thu Jan 31 22:30 , "Oleh Kovalchuke" sent:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizomba
>
>"Kizomba is one of the most popular genres of dance and music from
>Angola. Sung generally in Portuguese, it is a genre of music with a
>romantic flow mixed with African rhythm. The kizomba dancing style is
>also known to be very sensual.
>
>Kizomba is native to Angola, derived directly from zouk music with
>influences from other Lusophone countries."
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:15:36 -0600
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizomba
>
> "Kizomba is one of the most popular genres of dance and music from
> Angola. Sung generally in Portuguese, it is a genre of music with a
> romantic flow mixed with African rhythm. The kizomba dancing style is
> also known to be very sensual.
>
> Kizomba is native to Angola, derived directly from zouk music with
> influences from other Lusophone countries."
>
It doesn't sound like African music to my ears. It sounds like
Portuguese music with some African drumming.
Lusophone = Portuguese speaking, BTW and has nothing to do with Africa.
Quite pleasant and a good deal of fun. From what I can read about
Angolan music, it is very, very heavily influenced by Western types
(such as salsa, merengue, rumba and others). Just because it is from
Africa does not mean it is African. Most of Portugal's former colonies
(e.g. Brazil) have similar music.
> --
> Oleh Kovalchuke
> https://www.tangospring.com
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2008 7:00 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois
> <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/29/08, Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How can anyone deny African roots of tango after watching this clip?
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRw62Ouq-0A
>>>
>>>
*Sigh* One more time people... A trend in US academia has been to
redress past injustices to Blacks by accepting Afrocentrism and
Melanism. This has been catching on outside of the US too, but for those
of you who are unfamiliar read here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrocentrism (especially the subsection on
"Criticisms") and here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin_Theory#Melanin_Theory. "Political
Correctness" is just revival tent moralizing made respectable enough for
yuppies and mostly the supporters of the more extreme ends of these
movements do so on strictly moral grounds, which in their estimate
excuses any other shortcomings.
[OK, I'm at a University and feel strongly that scholarship is both
craft & calling. Bad work should not be excused.]
There have been several books written (such as Black Athena) that try
hard (and with often astonishingly poor scholarship) to support various
claims. The recent "Tango, An Art History of Love" is pretty much in
this vein too: The author, an art historian, knows virtually zilch
about dance or music but writes a corrective tome demonstrating that
Tango is almost wholly African and broadly hints at systematic
oppression to hide the fact (ok, you Argentines tell me if you're a
bunch of racists since that's what he called you.) Now, certainly there
are diverse influences in Tango and doubtless there are bona fide
African roots to many of the musical gestures but this is not the way
uncover these. Just because the claim is at least partially valid does
not excuse slovenly scholarship, the introduction of identity politics
and ideology.
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 06:33:16 -0200
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Facundo and Kely claim that the Tango is traceable to the African dance
called "Tambo" (from where it perhaps got the name as well), which
continued to be danced by African slaves in the New World as a form of
recreation. It combined with the Cuban Habanera to give Candombe, from
which evolved Milonga and then Tango. I have no independent confirmation
of this history, but it's my recollection of something Facundo said some
years ago at a workshop in Boston.
Robert Farris Thompson, an art historian from Yale, has written a book
that deals in large measure with the African roots of Tango, called
"Tango: The Art History of Love." (He gave a lecture on the subject,
along with Facundo and Kely in Boston in January 2003, well before the
book was published, sponsored by the Tango Society of Boston and the
Cambridge Center for Adult Education.)
I haven't read the book, and don't remember anything of the lecture, but
some of what appear to be relevant to this theme (and must surely be
elaborated upon in the book) appear in an interview which may be found at
https://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/86/Robert+Farris+Thompson-2005
A couple of excerpt from this interview:
NS: Can you explain what candombe is?
RFT: Yes. In classical Ki-Kongo ? ka, "pertaining to", plus ndombe,
"black person," or "black people." Candombe is, again, transnational.
It's not just an Uruguayan and Argentine term. It's a black nationalist
term in Kongo itself. In the 40s, when guys were plotting, "how can we
get rid of the Belgians?", they called their group candombe, which
roughly means, "all that we are as blacks." ...
and
NS: And we know that that word tango was already around. There's
that occurrence of it in 1786 in New Orleans, written down by the
Spanish governor: "los tangos, o bailes de negros."
RFT: Well, there you go.
Shahrukh
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 12:38:05 -0500
From: "jjg" <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Shahrukh Merchant wrote:
> Facundo and Kely claim that the Tango is traceable to the African dance
> called "Tambo" (from where it perhaps got the name as well), which
> continued to be danced by African slaves in the New World as a form of
> recreation. It combined with the Cuban Habanera to give Candombe, from
> which evolved Milonga and then Tango. I have no independent confirmation
> of this history, but it's my recollection of something Facundo said some
> years ago at a workshop in Boston.
There was also tango in Andalucia (Spain) and tango as a word (with various
interpretation of "holding") has been around in Spanish a long time.
Thompson's tortured attempts at etymology are not really reliable. He is about
as much of a specialist in African languages as I am. Typical is his
derivation below.
First of all, he has an attitude that Black is Black and does not
differentiate between any of them. The analog to his argument would be to
claim that something is of "European" origin then randomly quote snippets of
Greek, Russian, classical Sanskrit and French to prove it. With that much
variety heck yeah you'll find some phonetic parallels. I'll be I can "prove"
that the word "tango" is North European that way. His comment of "well there
you go" doesn't prove anything except again that the word "tango" has been in
Spanish for a while. His statement essentially leads one to think that it
supports him, which I don't see at all. If a plantation owner talks about
"singing Negros" are we to infer they invented music?
More to the point, when I bought his book I was really looking forward to the
topic he was to address and was soundly disappointed. I think it is an
interesting theme that needs to be explored but will require someone who
intimately knows Argentina, various West African languages (and can
substantiate which are likely to have been valid sources in Argentina), types
of *authentic* African dances (so Kizomba probably wouldn't qualify) and
traditional music as practiced by the tribes in question. S/He will also need
to know western dances (e.g. Andalusian tango) and explain why they do/do not
have any bearing on modern tango. Instead I got a chatty, mediocre coffee
table book that had me rolling my eyes almost every page.
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 15:46:20 -0700
From: "Oleh Kovalchuke" <tangospring@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba, tango's African cousin
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<e5c6fa070802031446o831f212n6a8a4b766d71d46f@mail.gmail.com>
Jeff Gaynor wrote ( https://tinyurl.com/2b2bqn ):
"(ok, you Argentines tell me if you're a bunch of racists since that's
what he called you.)"
To answer your question, Jeff,
1. Did the author call all Argentineans in toto racists?
...
3. A good movie made in Argentina and showing casual racism in
Argentina is 'La Cienaga' (2001) by Lucrecia Martel.
the rest of the answer can be found here: https://tinyurl.com/2avner
--
Oleh Kovalchuke
Argentine Tango: Connection, Balance, Rhythm
https://www.tangospring.com/tangoblog.htm
