Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo


5487 Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:19:28 -0500 From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> Subject: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: <tango-l@mit.edu> <DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702482AB9@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL> Okay Krasimir, the second piece in this improv by Gustavo/Giselle is done to the same music you selected in your clip. I think the G/G clip is so much more interesting, so much more musical, and so much more emotional than the Peralta clip you selected, it blows it out of the water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of_GJn8n3QA Krasimir Stoyanov ?rta: > No, I am not going to explain. If it is not obvious to you, all words on > this world will not make you see. >> Compare this (tango in its truest form): > https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc <https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc> >> to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I can't really say they > dance > tango. Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:58 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com > I think the G/G clip is so much more interesting, so much more musical, > and so much more emotional than the Peralta clip you selected, it blows > it out of the water. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of_GJn8n3QA I find it really hard to tell, because the dancing is way out of sync with the music. This becomes staringly obvious from about 40s in. This looks way worse than the usual YouTube problem, so I guess it must be down to ham-fistedness in the editing by "Tango Television NYC", whoever they are. A real shame. -- Chris Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:40:18 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: <tango-l@mit.edu> I agree that this time Gistavo/Guiselle dance really interesting. Usually not so. This time they dance almost correctly, the deviations from the optimal technique are not great, and that's why it is a good performance. It really grabbed my attention and I watched it with pleasure. But, even in this clip, they show that they are not skilled in the most basic of skills - I'm not telling which one, everybody should know.. So, I see they are talented dancers, that sometimes manage to dance beautifully. But most of the time, sadly, no. The clip with the world champions is interesting in a very different way - not the number and the speed of combinations. It's a matter of maturity in tango to be able to perceive this kind of beauty. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:19 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo > Okay Krasimir, the second piece in this improv by Gustavo/Giselle is > done to the same music you selected in your clip. I think the G/G clip > is so much more interesting, so much more musical, and so much more > emotional than the Peralta clip you selected, it blows it out of the > water. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of_GJn8n3QA > > Krasimir Stoyanov ?rta: > >> No, I am not going to explain. If it is not obvious to you, all words > on > >> this world will not make you see. > >>> Compare this (tango in its truest form): > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc> > >>> to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I can't really say > they > >> dance > >> tango. > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:04:26 -0800 (PST) From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, tango-l@mit.edu Krasimir, Can you please direct us to a video of you dancing 'correctly'? Thanks so much, Nancy --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > I agree that this time Gistavo/Guiselle dance really > interesting. Usually > not so. > > This time they dance almost correctly, the > deviations from the optimal > technique are not great, and that's why it is a good > performance. It really > grabbed my attention and I watched it with pleasure. > But, even in this clip, > they show that they are not skilled in the most > basic of skills - I'm not > telling which one, everybody should know.. > > So, I see they are talented dancers, that sometimes > manage to dance > beautifully. But most of the time, sadly, no. > > The clip with the world champions is interesting in > a very different way - > not the number and the speed of combinations. It's a > matter of maturity in > tango to be able to perceive this kind of beauty. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> > To: <tango-l@mit.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:19 PM > Subject: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo > > > > Okay Krasimir, the second piece in this improv by > Gustavo/Giselle is > > done to the same music you selected in your clip. > I think the G/G clip > > is so much more interesting, so much more musical, > and so much more > > emotional than the Peralta clip you selected, it > blows it out of the > > water. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of_GJn8n3QA > > > > Krasimir Stoyanov ?rta: > > > >> No, I am not going to explain. If it is not > obvious to you, all words > > on > > > >> this world will not make you see. > > > >>> Compare this (tango in its truest form): > > > >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc> > > > >>> to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I > can't really say > > they > > > >> dance > > > >> tango. > > > > <<Rito es la danza en tu vida y el tango que tu amas te quema en su llama>> de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:42:16 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: <tango-l@mit.edu> Unfortunately not. So far I am like those critics, that write articles about others. They themselves cannot show anything. I would be happy to change this, but so far I have no opportunity. Don't have the time, don't have the money to travel. And the level of dancing at the local milongas is disastrous. So, how can I show me dancing correctly? Yes, I know how to do it, but I need a partner, right? So far I fail in my efforts to "create" one. The thing that I have no idea how to stop is their doing things on their own. Sometimes they stop, and we dance well. But most of the time, they anticipate, and the millisecond they "discover" the step, they are already ahead of you in the step. This is very, very bad thing in tango, it simply kills the dance, kills the connection. And I don't know how to make them not do it. I have a lady that I teach to for two months. She can already perform the correct walking. BUT, only when she stops anticipating. It happens once a week or so. But, most of the time, no. And this stops her progress for now. So you see, I am not ready to show anything. I am desperate, and I don't think anyone can help, it is the job of the follower to stop guessing and anticipating - the correct technique is in place to make the movement the right way, but she's simply not using it. The second she "decides" to do something, she just ignores the skills I thought to her. Yes, I know she is too new in tango, but these kind of going from 0% to 100% and back from dance to dance are something I have no idea how to deal with. Is this because she lacks the talent needed? And please, don't use the "vs." thing. Tango is not fight club. You may actually see the local dancing level here: https://www.youtube.com/krasi69 ----- Original Message ----- Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>, Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, tango-l@mit.edu also, I am curious to see the dancing of the "one who knows", Chis UK :) If he is shy/embarassed, he can post something HE considers great dancing. In the mean time you can watch ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxD6pSNBn4A# @all: if you find something better, please post, will be interesting exercise. IL NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote: Krasimir, Can you please direct us to a video of you dancing 'correctly'? Thanks so much, Nancy --- Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > I agree that this time Gistavo/Guiselle dance really > interesting. Usually > not so. Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 00:57:42 -0500 From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu Oh dear, Krasimir. I enjoy your posts and your ideas about Tango. But now it seems you're just another of those guys who blames everything on the girl. Sorry if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but that's what it sounds like. If you've been teaching a lady for 2 months and she still can't dance well with you as her partner, then maybe you're not cut out to be a teacher. And please don't blame the lady for lacking the talent needed. Look to yourself. Maybe you've discovered that teaching Tango just isn't as easy as a lot of people seem to think. Krasimir, you should come to Hong Kong. We have wonderful ladies here who are a delight to dance with - easy to lead and excellent followers. They don't guess and they don't anticipate. The reason is that that we have excellent local teachers. We now have around 4 or 5 local couples teaching Tango and all are producing very nice dancers. We have a few bad apples, but they're always the ones who don't go to classes. Keith, HK On Wed Jan 23 12:42 , "Krasimir Stoyanov" sent: Yes, I know how to do >it, but I need a partner, right? So far I fail in my efforts to "create" >one. The thing that I have no idea how to stop is their doing things on >their own. Sometimes they stop, and we dance well. But most of the time, >they anticipate, and the millisecond they "discover" the step, they are >already ahead of you in the step. This is very, very bad thing in tango, it >simply kills the dance, kills the connection. And I don't know how to make >them not do it. I have a lady that I teach to for two months. She can >already perform the correct walking. BUT, only when she stops anticipating. >It happens once a week or so. But, most of the time, no. And this stops her >progress for now. So you see, I am not ready to show anything. > >I am desperate, and I don't think anyone can help, it is the job of the >follower to stop guessing and anticipating - the correct technique is in >place to make the movement the right way, but she's simply not using it. The >second she "decides" to do something, she just ignores the skills I thought >to her. Yes, I know she is too new in tango, but these kind of going from 0% >to 100% and back from dance to dance are something I have no idea how to >deal with. > >Is this because she lacks the talent needed? > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:55:15 +0200 From: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" You missed the point. I said that she does what is needed for a good dance, but not always. And I am puzzled why. She may dance well for a tanda, or for the whole milonga, but then, it may be a week or more, before it happens again. And, as I feel my feet shaking, I cannot continue with the teaching, the foundation is not stable, if it happens just by occation. Last sunday she was simply marvelous, I don't know how it looked from outside, but it felt great. No milonga on monday, and yesterday, she showed no technique at all. Guessing, jumping ahead, robotic kind of stiffness, etc. No idea why is this. Before I start teaching her, she NEVER danced well, only the most desparate men wanted her. So, she learned a lot from me, people see it and tell her - but I have no idea how to make it stable. I know I am not the best possible teacher, I'd rather not do it, but I am forced to do it - the local teachers are either not paying attention to technique, or, in the case of my former teacher, have embraced weird ideas (filling open spaces, pulling the lady with the left hand, etc.). By technique I mean leading and following the most basic things - posture, walking, pivots. No colcadas, volcadas, complex sacadas etc. I don't want to stress her with such things. Quoting Keith <keith@tangohk.com>: > Oh dear, Krasimir. I enjoy your posts and your ideas about Tango. But now it > seems you're just another of those guys who blames everything on the girl. > Sorry if I'm interpreting you incorrectly but that's what it sounds > like. If you've > been teaching a lady for 2 months and she still can't dance well > with you as her > partner, then maybe you're not cut out to be a teacher. And please > don't blame > the lady for lacking the talent needed. Look to yourself. Maybe > you've discovered > that teaching Tango just isn't as easy as a lot of people seem to think. > > Krasimir, you should come to Hong Kong. We have wonderful ladies here who are > a delight to dance with - easy to lead and excellent followers. They > don't guess > and they don't anticipate. The reason is that that we have excellent > local teachers. > We now have around 4 or 5 local couples teaching Tango and all are producing > very nice dancers. We have a few bad apples, but they're always the ones who > don't go to classes. > > Keith, HK > > > On Wed Jan 23 12:42 , "Krasimir Stoyanov" sent: > > Yes, I know how to do >> it, but I need a partner, right? So far I fail in my efforts to "create" >> one. The thing that I have no idea how to stop is their doing things on >> their own. Sometimes they stop, and we dance well. But most of the time, >> they anticipate, and the millisecond they "discover" the step, they are >> already ahead of you in the step. This is very, very bad thing in tango, it >> simply kills the dance, kills the connection. And I don't know how to make >> them not do it. I have a lady that I teach to for two months. She can >> already perform the correct walking. BUT, only when she stops anticipating. >> It happens once a week or so. But, most of the time, no. And this stops her >> progress for now. So you see, I am not ready to show anything. >> >> I am desperate, and I don't think anyone can help, it is the job of the >> follower to stop guessing and anticipating - the correct technique is in >> place to make the movement the right way, but she's simply not using it. The >> second she "decides" to do something, she just ignores the skills I thought >> to her. Yes, I know she is too new in tango, but these kind of going from 0% >> to 100% and back from dance to dance are something I have no idea how to >> deal with. >> >> Is this because she lacks the talent needed? >> > > > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:00:19 -0500 From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu Krasimir, It sounds a lot like nerves to me. Good Tango is obviously very important to you, but if you give the impression to the lady that it's a matter of life and death, she's going to get nervous. Try to get her to relax and just have some fun. Keith, HK On Wed Jan 23 14:55 , Krasimir Stoyanov sent: >You missed the point. I said that she does what is needed for a good >dance, but not always. And I am puzzled why. She may dance well for a >tanda, or for the whole milonga, but then, it may be a week or more, >before it happens again. And, as I feel my feet shaking, I cannot >continue with the teaching, the foundation is not stable, if it >happens just by occation. > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 12:21:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>, tango-l@mit.edu Y'know, I get so irritated with you people who are so arrogant and inconsiderate as to openly discuss and, indeed, have the affrontery to condemn world-class teachers in such a publicly derogatory manner! Gustavo and Giselle-Anne are teachers at the top of their art. They are to tango what Muhammed Ali, Rocky Marciano etc were to boxing. They are what Sinatra, Torme, Eckstine, Basie, Goodman, Parker, Armstrong etc were to jazz/swing... what Shakespeare, Tennyson, Miller etc were to literature... what Hughes, Larkin, Owen, Byron etc were to poetry! They are innovators! They took tango and evolved it! To improve, to mature, to achieve the ultimate everything needs to evolve. Get that into your head. If you don't like them, that's your problem and distinct lack of taste and class. Don't be so tacky as to presume you are so much better than they that you can condemn them out of hand like some sort of poor-man's armchair critic! Furthermore, I bet in a fight, Gustavo could kick shit out of your favourites anyway! So there! Dani Krasimir Stoyanov ?rta: > No, I am not going to explain. If it is not obvious to you, all words on > this world will not make you see. >> Compare this (tango in its truest form): > https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc <https://www.youtube.com/watch?vº-mGU_X8Mc> >> to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I can't really say they > dance > tango. Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:12:12 +0200 From: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" Quoting Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>: > They are innovators! They took tango and evolved it! To improve, to > mature, to achieve the ultimate everything needs to evolve. Get that > into your head. :-) It is not evolution, it is degradation. Get that into your head. Putting some new elements on top of bad basic tango skills is a real comedy. > Furthermore, I bet in a fight, Gustavo could kick shit out of your > favourites anyway! So there! Real tango way of thinking! But no, if you know the tango technique in details, you would realize, that there are very many people that are far better than Gustavo. And in a hypotetic fight, they'll win. You are just blind to see it, because you youself don't have the level to. Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:44:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > But no, if you know the tango > technique in details, you would realize, that there are very many people that are far better than Gustavo. Enough already! If Gustavo or Fabian knew that people on this list were arguing whether they were among the best Argentine dancers in the world, they'd probably laugh. They both put TEACHING before PERFORMING. I doubt they'd think they were the ultimate technicians and could probably point out others who they admire. To me, this thread is like comparing apple and oranges. My own philosophy is that one shouldn't be criticizing someone publicly unless you've told them the same criticism to their face. Otherwise, it's cowardly. However, to say, "I don't care for so-and-so because..." is okay since it's expressing a personal opinion. Opinions are often based on personal experiences. These experiences are different for every person and should be respected. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:12 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo Quoting Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>: > They are innovators! They took tango and evolved it! To improve, to > mature, to achieve the ultimate everything needs to evolve. Get that > into your head. :-) It is not evolution, it is degradation. Get that into your head. Putting some new elements on top of bad basic tango skills is a real comedy. > Furthermore, I bet in a fight, Gustavo could kick shit out of your > favourites anyway! So there! Real tango way of thinking! But no, if you know the tango technique in details, you would realize, that there are very many people that are far better than Gustavo. And in a hypotetic fight, they'll win. You are just blind to see it, because you youself don't have the level to. Be a better friend, newshound, and Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 06:19:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > You missed the point. I said that she does what is needed > for a good dance, but not always. And I am puzzled why. She may dance well for a tanda, or for the whole milonga, but then, it may be a week or more, before it happens again. And, as I feel my feet shaking, I cannot continue with the teaching, the foundation is not stable,if it > happens just by occasion. And she's only been dancing/learning for about 2 months? Give her a break. You try walking backwards all the time. I'd be more worried at 6 months. Having one good day a week isn't bad for a beginner. I second Keith's thoughts that she might be getting nervous. Or else she's bored and you are not keeping her attention focused on you. You can try using suspension, subtle movements, or varying your step size and timing to keep her focused on you. It can be a useful exercise to figure out what kind of day she's having (maybe her job was stressful that day) and adjusting accordingly. If you want to teach her to anticipate less, then when she does go off on her own, let her go. Loosen your embrace and just stand there. Wait until she's done, as if saying "are you done, yet?". It may mean that she stumbles or falls into a step. Let her. Otherwise, she's not going to figure out on her own that she anticipated. From a follower's perspective, that's going to be a more effective learning tool than a guy who is constantly compensating for her. As long as you're still dancing at her level or slightly above, it's fine. Hope this helps. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:49:31 +0200 From: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>: > --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: >> But no, if you know the tango >> technique in details, you would realize, that there are > very many people that are far better than Gustavo. > > Enough already! Enough of what? I have my own opinion and the right to express it. > If Gustavo or Fabian knew that people on > this list were arguing whether they were among the best > Argentine dancers in the world, they'd probably laugh. If they knew how much richer their dance could become, they'd stop laughing. Now I laugh at their incompetence - it is really funny how they don't use simple, but powerful tools. Actually, they use them as we all do, they simply don't realize it happens - and therefore can't control the process. 99% of tango-dancers in the world are like that - doing things in semi-conscious manner. That's the result of learning by practice, while noone explains to them how it really works. On the contrary, real masters know those tools, and use them consistently in a well-controlled manner. About saying this in their faces? How can I do this, when I have someone whose ego will 1000% stop him from paying the slightest attention to my words? Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 00:22:32 +0900 From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu> > It is not evolution, it is degradation. Get that into your head. > Putting some new elements on top of bad basic tango skills is a real > comedy. ...And in a hypotetic fight, they'll win. You > are just blind to see it, because you youself don't have the level to. Krasimir and Co: if you guys were skilled in discussion or debate at all, you would be wise enough to add "in my opinion" or IMO in list lingo, instead of getting on our nerves with your sweeping statements. > > > Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:22:02 +0200 From: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu format="flowed" Quoting "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>: > And she's only been dancing/learning for about 2 months? > Give her a break. You try walking backwards all the time. > I'd be more worried at 6 months. Having one good day a > week isn't bad for a beginner. Yeah, you may be right. It is just my impatience to have good dancing. I am really starving for it. > Or else she's bored and you are not keeping her > attention focused on you. You can try using suspension, > subtle movements, or varying your step size and timing to > keep her focused on you. I think it is the contrary, she is too focused. I do all kind of subtle things, and she thinks her job is to "detect" them. That makes her anxious she might miss to react accordingly. She does not seem to get my words that the subtle things would happen to her without her intervention, so she should be relaxed and not trying to feel them in advance. > If you want to teach her to anticipate less, then when she > does go off on her own, let her go. Loosen your embrace > and just stand there. Wait until she's done, as if saying > "are you done, yet?". Doesn't help. She quickly realizes the mistake, but it wouldn't stop her from doing it again. > It may mean that she stumbles or > falls into a step. Let her. Otherwise, she's not going to > figure out on her own that she anticipated. From a > follower's perspective, that's going to be a more effective > learning tool than a guy who is constantly compensating for > her. As long as you're still dancing at her level or > slightly above, it's fine. This is difficult to me, I simply cannot lower my level - actually I can, but it is boring to me. And I cannot hide it. Imagine what happens when the lady detects I am bored? Real disaster :-). And my believe is we should execute all the steps correctly (I am not saying perfectly, just correctly) in order for her body to memorize and automate the movements. But how can you automate something, if you do it correctly say, 20% of the time? And 80% incorrectly? The right habits are erased by the bad. Really weird stuff. Actually, I know one working solution - she needs a good environment, a bunch of good leaders to dance with. But, so far it's only me. There is one leader I teach to, but he is not very serious, taking two lessons a month is not enough I think. Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:38:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, Tango-L --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > Enough of what? I have my own opinion and the right to > express it. You have already. And again and again and again and again and again, without adding anything new. Try saying something new or take it offline if you want to continue arguing. > About saying this in their faces? > How can I do this, when I have someone whose ego will > 1000% stop him > from paying the slightest attention to my words? That's simply an excuse, not a reason. Doesn't make it any less cowardly. Besides, you don't know anything about their ego unless you've actually tried it. I'm done paying attention to this part of the thread. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:39:39 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, Tango-L I'm sorry, I meant to say "take it off-list" rather than "take it offline". Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Be a better friend, newshound, and Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:22:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: Astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>, Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, tango-l@mit.edu Astrid, In my opinion, in fact, IMO, in fact, IMHO... your talking rubbish! I appreciate your opinion... but... in your case an opinion is always an opinion until it talks too much... just like krasimir or whatever his name is. The very art of debate naturally presumes that the point being made IS that person's own opinion. If not, it would be qualified by referring to the source of the point. I've debated competitively at international level and I know what I'm talking about! While we're at it, krapimir, in response to your arrogant diatribe response to my posting... what make YOU, little ol' YOU the authority??? Your opinion is biased and a personal opinion - NOT an expert opinion. However, even if it were, GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD that you've no right to publicly condemn those who promote and develop tango. What have YOU done for tango excpet criticise and posting belching platitudes that seem to serve only for the sake of your own inflated ego to 'attempt to' elevate your seeming (yet perhaps even obvious) artificial intellect to others on this List. Furthermore, IMHO, you are senseless enough to attack my tango knowledge and yet you know nothing about me. You behave as though stupidity were a virtue... why is that? Dani Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 18:47:51 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: "Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~" <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>, "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>, <tango-l@mit.edu> Sorry, but you were the one to attack me first. And you used the offensive phrase "get IT into your head". IT WAS into my head. Several years ago they were my idols too, until I started to see the difference between real and fake masters. Then IT went out of my head. So I was where you are know, but you have never been where I am now. I am not forcing anyone to think like me, you are free to like whoever dancer you want to. ----- Original Message ----- From: Club~TangoLa Dolce Vita~ Furthermore, you are senseless enough to attack my tango knowledge and yet you know nothing about me. You behave as though stupidity were a virtue... why is that? Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com > you've no right to publicly condemn those who promote and develop tango. Let's see if I understand you correctly, Dani. Krasimir has no right to publicly condemn those who promote and develop tango... but you have the right to publicly commend them? ;) -- Chris Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com > who can possibly afford the enormous expense of learning only > by private tuition? You're thinking of bad private tuition. E.g. from those "you never stop learning" (& paying) teachers with whom actually you never start learning. Good private tuition gets you quickly to the point where you've had enough and should just get out and dance. The honest teacher will tell you when you're there. -- Chris PS > am curious to see the dancing of the "one who knows", Chis UK :) Flattery will get you nowhere ;) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:00:07 -0500 From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo Chris, "When you're there" means differerent things to different people. Being able to ... get out and dance ... is a very good start and may even be sufficient for many people. But while many are satisfied with a level of mediocrity, others want to achieve excellence. Some may seek to emulate or even dare to surpass the masters. So, the teacher can't tell you ... when you're there. That's something you can only tell yourself. And, for myself, I know that I'll never be there. I know that I'll never even be able to approach the level of Gustavo or Javier or many of the other Argentinean maestros that I admire - but I can always dream. But Chris, since one purpose of this list is to help each other, can you give us some examples of teachers you admire and who can provide good private tuition? Or can you only criticise? Keith, HK On Sat Jan 26 5:08 , "Chris, UK" sent: >Good private tuition gets you quickly to the point where you've had enough >and should just get out and dance. The honest teacher will tell you when >you're there. Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:37:38 +0930 From: Rodney Daniells <tango0809@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: <tango-l@mit.edu> Sorry I don't participate all that much but this time I just couldn't resist. I've had the opportunity to be associated with both these dancers/teachers and very frankly you can't campare the two. Fabian Peralta with Natasha and now with his new partner Virginia looks good and dances very simply and elegantly but compared to Gustavo and Giselle they are no more than intermediate in their knowledge and skills. Gustavo (and Giselle) are the ultimate Masters and it is an insult to compare them with anyone let alone Fabian Parelta. Cheers Rod stinfo/tango-l It's simple! Sell your car for just $30 at CarPoint.com.au https://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641&_tv2955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:17:18 -0500 From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: tango-l@mit.edu Rod, thanks for stating the obvious. But some will never get it. Keith, HK On Wed Jan 30 14:07 , Rodney Daniells sent: > >I've had the opportunity to be associated with both these dancers/teachers and very frankly you can't campare the two. Fabian Peralta with Natasha and now with his new partner Virginia looks good and dances very simply and elegantly but compared to Gustavo and Giselle they are no more than intermediate in their knowledge and skills. Gustavo (and Giselle) are the ultimate Masters and it is an insult to compare them with anyone let alone Fabian Parelta. > >Cheers >Rod Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:04:13 -0500 From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: keith@tangohk.com Cc: tango-l@mit.edu <4f5d14730801300904x1d5e7104n7ce9fcb1e9f3501a@mail.gmail.com> On 1/30/08, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote: > Rod, thanks for stating the obvious. But some will never get it. Yes Keith, that's why most of us should learn not to feed the trolls. :-) They're very easy to spot and normally share common features in their speech: evasive rhetoric and excuses. One's opinion is only as important as others make it. What most of us recognize as masters won't stop being so because of a mailing list. Humble persons will always learn from everyone, even how not to behave, act and hastily judge. You may now keep on fighting :) b > > Keith, HK > > > On Wed Jan 30 14:07 , Rodney Daniells sent: > > > > >I've had the opportunity to be associated with both these dancers/teachers and very frankly you can't campare the two. Fabian Peralta with Natasha and now with his new partner Virginia looks good and dances very simply and elegantly but compared to Gustavo and Giselle they are no more than intermediate in their knowledge and skills. Gustavo (and Giselle) are the ultimate Masters and it is an insult to compare them with anyone let alone Fabian Parelta. > > > >Cheers > >Rod > > > -- Bruno Afonso https://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese) https://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:37:02 +1100 From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu> <EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643DA1@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com> Yes, therein lies the problem. Gustavo is so far ahead of everyone that his dancing and teaching are of little use to most people. It is simply too advanced for us to learn what he has to teach. I am sure it would be great to study with him if you are already a teacher with 10 years + of tango under your belt and excellent fitness and flexibility. When I get to that stage I will be enrolling in his workshops. But in the meantime and for the rest of us we probably need someone working at a more basic level. Incidentally I don't think you can regard Fabian as intermediate. He has his areas of strength and in them (such as his amazing turns, musicality and elegance of movement) I think he is in a class of his own. But it is not very productive to compare people such as this as they all have their strengths and weaknesses but are so far ahead of the rest of us that we should study everything they do. Victor Bennetts >Rod, thanks for stating the obvious. But some will never get it. >Keith, HK >>On Wed Jan 30 14:07 , Rodney Daniells sent: >> >>I've had the opportunity to be associated with both these dancers/teachers and very frankly you can't campare the two. Fabian Peralta with Natasha and now with his new partner Virginia looks good and dances very simply and elegantly but compared to Gustavo and Giselle they are no more than intermediate in their knowledge and skills. Gustavo (and Giselle) are the ultimate Masters and it is an insult to compare them with anyone let alone Fabian Parelta. >> >>Cheers >>Rod ************** CAUTION - Disclaimer ************* This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by e-mail and delete the original message. Further, you are not to copy, disclose, or distribute this e-mail or its contents to any other person and any such actions are unlawful. This e-mail may contain viruses. Infosys has taken every reasonable precaution to minimize this risk, but is not liable for any damage you may sustain as a result of any virus in this e-mail. You should carry out your own virus checks before opening the e-mail or attachment. Infosys reserves the right to monitor and review the content of all messages sent to or from this e-mail address. 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5487 Krasimir, peralta vs gustavo