5297  In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 10:17:04 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Igor wrote:

<Tete is one of the Greatest living Masters of Tango.

I am sure he does not give a dime about your opinion about him. Neither do
we - those who like him, value his dancing, and consider him as a teacher.>

What I wrote about Tete not originating close embrace is a simple fact, not
an opinion. You will learn as you hopefully gain more experience and
perspective that many milongueros (even the admired ones who genuinely dance very well)
have a tendency to fabricate their place in tango history; sometimes it's a
minor falsehood, but unfortunately too often it is an egregious lie, as in this
case. Some "milongueros" even stopped dancing completely for many years but
as tango became newly popular again and potentially profitable, they
conveniently left out that part. It often is a little painful and disappointing to
learn the reality. They count on people like you who have not been around long
enough to dispute whatever claims they make, but some of us have a little more
tenure in the tango world. Nobody originated close embrace, especially not
Tete. People have danced close for probably a century. That is one of the reasons
it gained the reputation very early as a scandalous and erotic dance.
There are things to be learned from Tete but thinking that "Tete is one of
the greatest (?!) living masters of tango" is definitely a personal opinion,
and that is fine, but saying that he did not originate close embrace is not.
It is a fact.

Cheers,
Charles




See what's new at https://www.aol.com

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:28:09 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: Crrtango@aol.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Thank you Charles for pointing out once again (as I have been doing for
over a decade on this very List)
the legendary nature of tango history.

>>>>>Some "milongueros" even stopped dancing completely for many years but

as tango became newly popular again and potentially profitable, they
conveniently left out that part.<<<<

Most of the milongueros we met in the late 80s and early 90s (among the
well-known ones Finito Ribera and Pupi Castello) told us that they had stopped
dancing tango for 20-25 years previous to the early '80s, mostly giving family
as the principal reason although given the attitude or the Argentine government
to tango during many of these years, there may be additional reasons.
Thus Fino, who was considered the best social
dancer of the '80s, who died in 1987 at the age of about 55, could not have
been dancing more than a total of, if he started at 15, 20 years or so max.
So probably a majority of the "old milongueros" who say they have been dancing
for over 50 years and claim to have danced during the '40s are exaggerating
especially if they are under 75.

As for the origins of close embrace, Tete was, as far as I know, one of the first
to teach the style, in 1993 or 4, under the auspices of Susana Miller. In 1994
Daniel Trenner told me all about him, her and milonguero style as the only true
form of social tango. He then began to propagate this myth at Stanford Tango Week.

In 1987, and probably for decades or a century previous, a very simple form of
close embrace was prevalent in the center of town, but not in other barrios.
Of course I only know what I have experienced, much of which may not be true
even as experience. That is the nature of tango.

On our last trip to BsAs I bought a book which related a story about me that
while flattering wasn't at all true. And an aspiring tango historian told me
another store about myself, even more flattering, with even less basis in
reality.

So I take all tango history, especially stories told by milongueros,
including descriptions of what is happening right
now in the milongas and even my own experience, as myth and legend and advise
any truth seekers to remain skeptical. Twenty years ago, before tango
in Buenos Aires became an international commodity, there was more accurate
information to be gleaned, maybe . . . .

Barbara in Puerto Vallarta


Crrtango@aol.com wrote:

>Igor wrote:
>
> <Tete is one of the Greatest living Masters of Tango.
>
>I am sure he does not give a dime about your opinion about him. Neither do
>we - those who like him, value his dancing, and consider him as a teacher.>
>
>What I wrote about Tete not originating close embrace is a simple fact, not
>an opinion. You will learn as you hopefully gain more experience and
>perspective that many milongueros (even the admired ones who genuinely dance very well)
>have a tendency to fabricate their place in tango history; sometimes it's a
>minor falsehood, but unfortunately too often it is an egregious lie, as in this
>case. Some "milongueros" even stopped dancing completely for many years but
>as tango became newly popular again and potentially profitable, they
>conveniently left out that part. It often is a little painful and disappointing to
>learn the reality. They count on people like you who have not been around long
>enough to dispute whatever claims they make, but some of us have a little more
>tenure in the tango world. Nobody originated close embrace, especially not
>Tete. People have danced close for probably a century. That is one of the reasons
>it gained the reputation very early as a scandalous and erotic dance.
>There are things to be learned from Tete but thinking that "Tete is one of
>the greatest (?!) living masters of tango" is definitely a personal opinion,
>and that is fine, but saying that he did not originate close embrace is not.
>It is a fact.
>
>Cheers,
>Charles
>
>
>
>
> See what's new at https://www.aol.com
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:36:53 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
<00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF363@stancosbs1.stanco.local>

Just trying to ascertain whether Barbara is inferring that close embrace
Tango style originated around 93-94 with Tete. I do have several photos

>from around 1900 which clearly shows the man's right arm totally around

the woman as could only be achieved with close embrace.

Anton

"As for the origins of close embrace, Tete was, as far as I know, one of
the first
to teach the style, in 1993 or 4, under the auspices of Susana Miller.
In 1994
Daniel Trenner told me all about him, her and milonguero style as the
only true
form of social tango. He then began to propagate this myth at Stanford
Tango Week."

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:26:18 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: Anton Stanley <antonst@alidas.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>


Hmmmm... Perhaps this only proves that Tete originated the close embrace about 107 years ago. Not such a far fetched idea if you consider him a Deity ;-)

Manuel

> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 05:36:53 +1000
> From: antonst@alidas.com.au
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
>
> Just trying to ascertain whether Barbara is inferring that close embrace
> Tango style originated around 93-94 with Tete. I do have several photos
> from around 1900 which clearly shows the man's right arm totally around
> the woman as could only be achieved with close embrace.
>
> Anton

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:01:53 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: Anton Stanley <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Dear List,
What I wrote was:

>>>As for the origins of close embrace, Tete was, as far as I know, one of the first

to teach the style, in 1993 or 4, under the auspices of Susana Miller. In 1994
Daniel Trenner told me all about him, her and milonguero style as the only true
form of social tango. He then began to propagate this myth at Stanford Tango Week.

In 1987, and probably for decades or a century previous, a very simple form of
close embrace was prevalent in the center of town, but not in other barrios.
Of course I only know what I have experienced, much of which may not be true
even as experience. That is the nature of tango.<<<<<<

Please notice that I did not say that close embrace started anytime recently, but
probably decades or a century ago, and I never said that Tete claimed to have
originated the style, only that he began to teach his individual version when
other teachers were teaching either a more open style or a closed/open style.

Barbara






Anton Stanley wrote:

>Just trying to ascertain whether Barbara is inferring that close embrace
>Tango style originated around 93-94 with Tete. I do have several photos
>>from around 1900 which clearly shows the man's right arm totally around
>the woman as could only be achieved with close embrace.
>
>Anton
>
>"As for the origins of close embrace, Tete was, as far as I know, one of
>the first
>to teach the style, in 1993 or 4, under the auspices of Susana Miller.
>In 1994
>Daniel Trenner told me all about him, her and milonguero style as the
>only true
>form of social tango. He then began to propagate this myth at Stanford
>Tango Week."
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:08:39 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Barbara, I'm pretty sure you misunderstood or misrepresent Daniel.

Maybe he said something and maybe you heard something, but it doesn't
make sense that Daniel would claim milonguero to be "the only true
form of social tango" for several reasons:

(1) Daniel teaches social tango, but nobody would ever call him a
Milonguero Style teacher or dancer. I HAVE seen him teach milonguero
style (like Susana or Tete), but only occasionally in more advanced
classes. Daniel almost always taught and presented social tango as an
improvisational, dance with pivoting ochos and grapevines, an
approach that owes more to the "salon" tradition in general rather
than the "milonguero" one in specific. He had many inspirations, but I
always felt his analysis or teaching methodology owed most to Gustavo
and Mingo circa 1995.

(2) In 1994 in the US, 90% of tango was done in a wide-open embrace
full of ganchos and big boleos. This was not at all typical or
authentic for Buenos Aires milongas. So, if Daniel was claiming that
social tango in Buenos Aires was more typically done in close-embrace,
that is quite easily understood as his attempt to contrast the weird
fantasy imitation done in the US with the way tango was actually
danced in Buenos Aires.

(3) Maybe someone says something hyperbolic, or exaggerates for
impact, or maybe one comment is taken out of context. But, it is a
dishonest argument to find one technical point and then claim you have
the true insight into what they believe. It's like the courtroom
lawyer trying to catch the witness in a little slip-up.


Strawman Argument:

For the hundredth time, AUTHENTICITY IS ABOUT FEEL AND MUSICALITY, NOT
STYLE.

There is something called authenticity; otherwise where would you get
astonished comments like "You don't dance like a foreigner", or "Wait
a minute, where did you learn?", or "You mean they dance like that in
the US?"

It makes me wonder: how does a foreigner dance?

The really curious thing is that you frequently hear the claim on
Tango-L that "some people say milonguero is the only authentic tango"

>from people who dislike milonguero, and are trying to build up a

strawman. You rarely (if ever?) hear milonguero style proponents claim
authenticity for only one style.

First, it is just stupid.

Go to Buenos Aires. Go to the social milongas. Observe what you see.
There are many styles common on the social dance floors. What milongas
are there where the everybody is in a wide-open embrace, doing loads
of ganchos and big boleos.

I guess you could actually say that typical, authentic social dancing
in Buenos Aires is done in a close embrace, but all the salon (social)
styles are very close compared with 1995 US tango dancing.




On Nov 19, 2007, at 10:28 AM, Barbara Garvey wrote:

> Thank you Charles for pointing out once again (as I have been doing
> for
> over a decade on this very List)
> the legendary nature of tango history.
>
>>>>>> Some "milongueros" even stopped dancing completely for many
>>>>>> years but
> as tango became newly popular again and potentially profitable, they
> conveniently left out that part.<<<<
> ...
> As for the origins of close embrace, Tete was, as far as I know, one
> of the first
> to teach the style, in 1993 or 4, under the auspices of Susana
> Miller. In 1994
> Daniel Trenner told me all about him, her and milonguero style as
> the only true
> form of social tango. He then began to propagate this myth at
> Stanford Tango Week.
>
> In 1987, and probably for decades or a century previous, a very
> simple form of
> close embrace was prevalent in the center of town, but not in other
> barrios.
> Of course I only know what I have experienced, much of which may not
> be true
> even as experience. That is the nature of tango.
> ...
> Barbara in Puerto Vallarta

Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:37:21 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>

Why are stuck in this rut over who invented close embrace and what was Tete's role? A lot of people don't even dance close embrace which makes the discussion even less relevant. Hopefully by the time I return from my cruise where I'm a dance host (ballroom, not AT), this issue will be over.

I'm glad there's close embrace (because I can't dance any other way.) I never stopped to think about its origin. I just want to enjoy it.

To the Americans, Happy Thanksgiving.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:26:16 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] In the land of the blind, the one-eyed..etc.
To: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>, "Anton Stanley"
<antonst@alidas.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

> Hmmmm... Perhaps this only proves that Tete originated the close embrace
> about 107 years ago. Not such a far fetched idea if you consider him a
> Deity ;-)
>
> Manuel

Thank you, Manuel, for bringing some common sense to this discussion and
putting things back on the firm ground of reality.

; )
Astrid

>