1797 Lead and follow
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:30:43 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Lead and follow
" Leaders who are taught the idea of
> indicating the lead and then following the follower
> are the better dancers."
I thank Carlos Rojas, Brian Dunn and Barbara Garvey for their explanation.
They say:
"we propose her a step, then
she decides how and when the step is taken (just like in real life),
then we followed her and try to step just a fraction of a second after
her. This approach makes the worker appear smoother because the focus
point is her step and not the worker's."
"...One is the "caveman" approach - you force her to go HERE, then THERE,
and
right NOW. It is controlling, effective, forceful, and has a brutal edge to
it. "
"As Daniel would portray it
metaphorically, this is leading by guiding: showing a way for the follower
to move, then WAITING to see if and when the follower responded before
initiating his ACCOMPANYING movement."
"the leader moves
his upper body very slightly to the left without twisting it or pivoting,
causing his partner to step to her right; he then follows with a slightly
larger step to the left with his left foot. The size of his initial
upper-body movement should determine the size of the follower's step, which
determines the size of his side step, which ideally will indicate the length
of steps the leader plans to take in the rest of the dance."
My interpretation of their explanation is (please correct me if I am wrong),
that one member of the couple the man or the leader initiates the movement,
either as a 'proposal' or 'by showing the way' or doing precisely both by
using the chest. Then the woman, the follower, executes the step and the man
finishes the movement. The whole process takes fractions of seconds.
Barbara allows the woman some freedom as to decide how big or small the step
should be. I am sure that many leaders will disagree with this last element.
This means that the leader decides how big the step should be by stepping
immediately and chronologically with her, guiding the length of the step and
arriving at the end at the same time, many leaders will intend that the lady
takes a slightly smaller step than his.
The 'caveman' approach should is described by Brian as a legitimate way of
leading but it seems to me that it borders in what we call : 'not knowing
how to lead'. This manhandling or cranking of the woman is frequently seen
in beginners. The experienced leader is very gentle in his lead.
So then: the man suggests the lead *and waits for the lady to follow .
It seems that what we are describing using different words is "good lead and
follow", nothing else.
Let's analyze the alternatives:
The man suggests a move and proceeds to move without waiting for the lady to
follow. This is a typical example of poor leading in beginners.
They do not allow enough time to the lady and she feels rushed.
Another frequent problem beginner leaders may encounter is to move leaving
the lady behind, following Barbara's example on step #2 of the base the
leader takes a step to the side, his left but fails to lead so the follower
remains where she was and follows late.
What we are talking about is to lead properly in the sense that: the leader
feels the music, decides what move to execute as a corporal expression of
the feelings that such music awakens in him, then he proceeds to communicate
to the lady what he wants to do, she receives his message and moves, *then
he completes the movement. The message is conveyed by the chest, and the
frame.
It is very interesting when a message to move is conveyed to the lady
without any movement of the feet of the leader. An example of this happens
when after a barrida of the man there is an "intention" a motionless lead
for the woman to sweep (drag) back or when there is an indication for her to
do a sacada after a sacada of the man. This "intention" conveyed by a motion
of the upper body without moving the feet seems to be almost telepathic.
There are many ways to lead, with the chest for instance, both partners
crossing their arms at the back while there is contact at the upper chests,
or similarly keeping contact only at the forehead.
The lead should be initiated at the right moment, after the follower has
placed her weight on the proper foot and not before.
It should be gentle, also clear so that it is understood without any
possible doubt, sufficient time should be allowed for the follower to
complete the movement and express herself artistically.
There are times when a beginner follower misinterprets the lead, here the
good leader 'compensates' by changing the figure he had in mind to
accommodate whatever movement she performs. This is perhaps, IMO the only
time when the leader really 'follows' the follower.
The rest of the time, in other words, he allows enough time for the lady to
complete and express herself in motion.
To say that a leader follows the follower could have the implication that
the man leads a step and the lady executes whatever she wants then the man
follows her. I assume that this could be an interesting exercise to test
the leader's improvisation skill. :))
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:19:17 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Teachers who lead and follow
Last night I was at a salsa venue and I saw a woman leading another woman in
salsa - she was really good! I was sitting next to another salsa teacher,
and he was watching closely. When the song was over, he ran over and asked
the woman to dance - but to lead him! I thought that was fantastic!
In the professional level of ballroom dance instruction, all teachers lead
and follow. There is no question that a professional teacher would not be
competent in both roles. I see this less in non-professional teachers, and
have rarely seen this in salsa until last night.
This brought me to a question - when you pick a teacher do you verify that
they can do both roles? Is it important to you?
I am also constantly surprised by women who whisper to me after a dance
"That was really good! Better than most of the men!" I think first of all
that they don't need to whisper - are men's egos really that delicate? And
also, shouldn't I, as a teacher, be expected to be one of the best leaders?
Oh, yes - in the myth-busting mode - last time I was in Buenos Aires I led
my male partner (an Argentine) at a regular milonga and was not immediately
thrown out into the street. As a matter of fact, the people who saw us loved
it!
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN 55408
www.mndance.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:41:28 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Dear Lois:
Who drives the car is not important if you get where
you are going. What is important for the follower is
the the total tango experience. A woman leading the
dance is not the same experience as a man leading the
dance. It may be a cool thing for a woman to lead or
a man to follow, but it is totally different, and it
always will be. These are not equal things, even
though they can be cool things. I enjoy them every
once in awhile, just like I enjoy close embrace, every
once in a while, but not all the time....lol.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
> Last night I was at a salsa venue and I saw a woman
> leading another woman in
> salsa - she was really good! I was sitting next to
> another salsa teacher,
> and he was watching closely. When the song was over,
> he ran over and asked
> the woman to dance - but to lead him! I thought that
> was fantastic!
>
> In the professional level of ballroom dance
> instruction, all teachers lead
> and follow. There is no question that a professional
> teacher would not be
> competent in both roles. I see this less in
> non-professional teachers, and
> have rarely seen this in salsa until last night.
>
> This brought me to a question - when you pick a
> teacher do you verify that
> they can do both roles? Is it important to you?
>
> I am also constantly surprised by women who whisper
> to me after a dance
> "That was really good! Better than most of the men!"
> I think first of all
> that they don't need to whisper - are men's egos
> really that delicate? And
> also, shouldn't I, as a teacher, be expected to be
> one of the best leaders?
>
> Oh, yes - in the myth-busting mode - last time I was
> in Buenos Aires I led
> my male partner (an Argentine) at a regular milonga
> and was not immediately
> thrown out into the street. As a matter of fact, the
> people who saw us loved
> it!
>
> Lois Donnay
> Minneapolis, MN 55408
> www.mndance.com
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:56:08 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Lois Donnay wrote:
>Last night I was at a salsa venue and I saw a woman leading another woman in
>salsa - she was really good! I was sitting next to another salsa teacher,
>and he was watching closely. When the song was over, he ran over and asked
>the woman to dance - but to lead him! I thought that was fantastic!
>
>In the professional level of ballroom dance instruction, all teachers lead
>and follow. There is no question that a professional teacher would not be
>competent in both roles. I see this less in non-professional teachers, and
>have rarely seen this in salsa until last night.
>
>This brought me to a question - when you pick a teacher do you verify that
>they can do both roles? Is it important to you?
>
>
Yes it is important to me for a single teacher working by themselves.
However, I
assume that anyone hanging their shingle out as a teacher can both lead
and follow.
>I am also constantly surprised by women who whisper to me after a dance
>"That was really good! Better than most of the men!" I think first of all
>that they don't need to whisper - are men's egos really that delicate? And
>also, shouldn't I, as a teacher, be expected to be one of the best leaders?
>
>
I'm not surprised. At the mini-festival in St. Louis last November, more
than a few women were leading at any one time dring the milongas, and
they were all clearly better than I am.
It's easy for men to take it in a negative sense in terms of feeling
competed
against. A better frame might be to consider that it's a sign that men
aren't
doing their job properly if so many women take up leading. I think
that's at
least partly true, but not the whole reason so many women lead.
However, I also take the percentage of female leaders who dance well as
proof that following well is a real advantage to learning the lead.
However it's also true that men today have limited opportunities to learn
following. Enough men feel awkward dancing with other men and enough
women simply aren't interested (yet?) in leading that the only time I can
count on getting practice following is during workshops during practicas or
when short of women for a class.
Also, in newer/smaller communities, beginning men get pressed into service
as leaders right away.
>Oh, yes - in the myth-busting mode - last time I was in Buenos Aires I led
>my male partner (an Argentine) at a regular milonga and was not immediately
>thrown out into the street. As a matter of fact, the people who saw us loved
>it!
>
>
LOL. Premature generalization is the root of much evil.
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:38:20 -0500
From: jackie ling wong <jackie.wong@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
hi lois,
i lead and follow and teach and like to take lessons from either a
couple (where the follower plays an active teaching role) or someone
who can dance both.
i too led during traditional milongas in buenos aires (Argentine
women)...and didn't get much flak but there were definitely feelings
about what we were doing... some bad but most positive or it didn't
matter. for me, i just want to socialize with my friends, dance and
have fun. why should it bother anyone else if i dance with a woman
or man...leading or following?
i'll be in minneapolis for the festival in june. let's dance!
jackie
www.tangopulse.net
On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:19 PM, Lois Donnay wrote:
Last night I was at a salsa venue and I saw a woman leading another
woman in
salsa - she was really good! I was sitting next to another salsa
teacher,
and he was watching closely. When the song was over, he ran over and
asked
the woman to dance - but to lead him! I thought that was fantastic!
In the professional level of ballroom dance instruction, all teachers
lead
and follow. There is no question that a professional teacher would
not be
competent in both roles. I see this less in non-professional
teachers, and
have rarely seen this in salsa until last night.
This brought me to a question - when you pick a teacher do you verify
that
they can do both roles? Is it important to you?
I am also constantly surprised by women who whisper to me after a dance
"That was really good! Better than most of the men!" I think first of
all
that they don't need to whisper - are men's egos really that
delicate? And
also, shouldn't I, as a teacher, be expected to be one of the best
leaders?
Oh, yes - in the myth-busting mode - last time I was in Buenos Aires
I led
my male partner (an Argentine) at a regular milonga and was not
immediately
thrown out into the street. As a matter of fact, the people who saw
us loved
it!
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN 55408
www.mndance.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:56:05 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Good question, Lois! And I think this is one area
where sexism raises its little head.
If the instructors teach as a couple, I don't check
for dual-role dancing.
If the instructor is a man, I usually don't check if
he can dance the woman's role. Partly because most
men simply cannot dance the role as well as a woman
can. For me, it is more important that they respect
the woman and know their own limitations.
If the instructor is a woman, I do check that she can
also dance the man's role enough to be able to analyze
problems accurately.
I also get the same comments of surprise when I dance
the man's part at milongas (even from my own
students!). I think the surprise comes because men
tend to focus on vocabulary a lot and can fall back on
using muscles (often inadvertently), whereas women who
dance the man's part focus more on musicality and/or
do not resort to using muscle as often. So it's that
gentleness or musicality that they appreciate.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
> This brought me to a question - when you pick a
> teacher do you verify that
> they can do both roles? Is it important to you?
>
> I am also constantly surprised by women who whisper
> to me after a dance
> "That was really good! Better than most of the men!"
> I think first of all
> that they don't need to whisper - are men's egos
> really that delicate? And
> also, shouldn't I, as a teacher, be expected to be
> one of the best leaders?
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:01:57 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Dear Trini:
Again, I agree with you 100 percent.
"I think the surprise comes because men
tend to focus on vocabulary a lot and can fall back on
using muscles (often inadvertently), whereas women who
dance the man's part focus more on musicality and/or
do not resort to using muscle as often. So it's that
gentleness or musicality that they appreciate."
There is a difference....
This is why we often hear than men are the muscle (the
drummers who provide a strong lead and often wear
black clothing to try to be invisible in the
background) and the women are the melody (the music
who influence the lead and follow the men in all of
their mistakes, but make then men look good anyway).
To me that is not sexist. It is just Argentine Tango.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Good question, Lois! And I think this is one area
> where sexism raises its little head.
>
> If the instructors teach as a couple, I don't check
> for dual-role dancing.
>
> If the instructor is a man, I usually don't check if
> he can dance the woman's role. Partly because most
> men simply cannot dance the role as well as a woman
> can. For me, it is more important that they respect
> the woman and know their own limitations.
>
> If the instructor is a woman, I do check that she
> can
> also dance the man's role enough to be able to
> analyze
> problems accurately.
>
> I also get the same comments of surprise when I
> dance
> the man's part at milongas (even from my own
> students!). I think the surprise comes because men
> tend to focus on vocabulary a lot and can fall back
> on
> using muscles (often inadvertently), whereas women
> who
> dance the man's part focus more on musicality and/or
> do not resort to using muscle as often. So it's
> that
> gentleness or musicality that they appreciate.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
>
> > This brought me to a question - when you pick a
> > teacher do you verify that
> > they can do both roles? Is it important to you?
> >
> > I am also constantly surprised by women who
> whisper
> > to me after a dance
> > "That was really good! Better than most of the
> men!"
> > I think first of all
> > that they don't need to whisper - are men's egos
> > really that delicate? And
> > also, shouldn't I, as a teacher, be expected to be
> > one of the best leaders?
> >
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
> protection around
>
>
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:50:42 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Hola Derik,
Sean here. I would be very insulted if a woman told me
that I have a strong lead. I strive to be very clear
about my intention, but I try to never use my strength
against a woman.
There is no machismo in using your strength to move a
woman, only brutality. Brutes are not welcome at our
milongas.
Just my opinion,
Sean
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
<snip>
men are the muscle (the drummers who provide a strong
lead and often wear black clothing to try to be
invisible in the background)
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:47:20 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: The "brutes" are not the open embrace people. It is the reverse. Re: [TANGO-L] Teachers who lead and follow
Dear Sean:
Hola!
The problem here, is that we are again dealing with an
"out right lie and fabrication" from Susan Miller and
her "brutish" and "controling" little group of
so-called "close embrace all the time" dancers. If
you do not believe me, just click on the link below to
see a picture of Susana Miller dancing. As you will
see in the picture, she is absolutely leaning on her
dance partner. She is not balanced on her own weight
as you and her claim. The so called illusion is BS.
If the man in this picture stepped away from her, she
would fall flat on her face.
https://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/wtsusanamiller.gif
The fact is that "close embrace all the time" follower
has to be pushed around physically by direct contact
with the leader's body to take a step, and that to me
is far more "brutish" than a leader in an an open
embrace simply moving his body to indicate where the
follower might want to go.
The fundamental problem with "close embrace all the
time" followers is that they most of them do not know
how to follow a leader unless they are pushed around.
They are not shown by the "close embrace all the time"
teachers how to follow a leader without body contact.
The "brutes" are not the open embrace people. It is
the reverse.
PS- Please read my E-mail to Trini below again....
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:02:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: [TANGO-L] Close Embrace All the
> Time People
> To: patangos@YAHOO.COM, TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> CC: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
> Dear Trini, I understand what you are saying and I
> agree with you 100 percent. In Argentine Tango one
> tries to adapt and comunicate... be the best one can
> be for a partner, not try to control him or her.
> Derik
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Hola Derik,
>
> Sean here. I would be very insulted if a woman told
> me
> that I have a strong lead. I strive to be very clear
> about my intention, but I try to never use my
> strength
> against a woman.
>
> There is no machismo in using your strength to move
> a
> woman, only brutality. Brutes are not welcome at our
> milongas.
>
> Just my opinion,
>
> Sean
>
> --- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> men are the muscle (the drummers who provide a
> strong
> lead and often wear black clothing to try to be
> invisible in the background)
>
> protection around
>
>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:31:24 -0500
From: Stephane Fymat <stephane_fymat@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: FW: [TANGO-L] The "brutes" are not the open embrace people. It is the reverse. Re: [TANGO-L] Teachers who lead and follow
Whether open or closed embrace, there is a difference between having an axis
and sharing it with my partner vs. not having my own axis and using my
partner's axis as my own. I love dancing with a woman who has her own axis
and may choose to share it with me by leaning on me in a close embrace. She
shares her power with me, and honors me with her trust in me to take care of
that which she can do perfectly well on her own. I don't love dancing with
a woman who has no axis, and places the burden upon me without asking, by
leaning on me, so that now I must do the work of two people. Women without
their own axis in close embrace lean on the chest to prop themselves up. In
open embrace, they push down and grip your arms tightly to hold themselves
up. Same thing either way.
We men do our version when we don't have our own axis - often by dancing
fast to recover our lack of balance in one step with the next step, and
recovering that one with the next one, until it's all one off-the-beat salad
of steps that unnecessarily jerks the woman around.
To no one's surprise on this list, if we take care of our own axis first, we
then have something to give to the other person. In this case, shared axis,
and all of the wonderful feelings that come from that.
Stephane
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:34:39 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
There are other options for a woman to affect dancing of her partner than
the actual man's role in the dance. These range from subtle methods of
affecting the man's lead to interception of the lead and direct leading.
Without changing the embrace positions. A woman leads like a woman and her
man follows like a man.
There are many ways of doing it. It can be 1) Affecting the result of the
lead, 2) Blocking the lead, and 3) Intercepting the lead (as well as
accepting it as an offer). I wish more women master it. Men, of course,
should be ready for this and willing to try.
I have experienced dances when both lead and follow at the same time. I mean
it: at the same time, not interchanging. A step is a result of 2 leads
whenever one prevails or their combined effect. And both follow the combined
lead. It is a very rough description, though, but it is the first time I am
able to give some explanation of the phenomena.
* * *
Sometimes, rarely, I do practice the follower's role. If my partner is a
man, we dance differently than a man and a woman. When I follow, I follow
like a man.
Sometimes I even got a chance to be lead by a woman. In this case I follow
her in another way. I can not say that I follow like a woman, but not in the
same way like being led by a man. I can not explain it, but I feel it.
I wonder, when other women lead other women, do they lead as a woman or as a
man?
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:53:46 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
they say in tango...you dance who you are...
so perhaps it's not about dancing "as a man or woman"...
I am just beginning to lead.... but I get many woman followers who say
they like my lead better than some men's leads... I don't think it's
because I'm a woman or more feminine or lead like a woman or like a
man ...
I think it has to do with being clear, having sensitivity and regard for
your partner and especially musicality.
Ilene
"I wonder, when other women lead other women, do they lead as a woman or as a
man?"
Igor Polk wrote:
>There are other options for a woman to affect dancing of her partner than
>the actual man's role in the dance. These range from subtle methods of
>affecting the man's lead to interception of the lead and direct leading.
>Without changing the embrace positions. A woman leads like a woman and her
>man follows like a man.
>
>There are many ways of doing it. It can be 1) Affecting the result of the
>lead, 2) Blocking the lead, and 3) Intercepting the lead (as well as
>accepting it as an offer). I wish more women master it. Men, of course,
>should be ready for this and willing to try.
>
>I have experienced dances when both lead and follow at the same time. I mean
>it: at the same time, not interchanging. A step is a result of 2 leads
>whenever one prevails or their combined effect. And both follow the combined
>lead. It is a very rough description, though, but it is the first time I am
>able to give some explanation of the phenomena.
>
>* * *
>Sometimes, rarely, I do practice the follower's role. If my partner is a
>man, we dance differently than a man and a woman. When I follow, I follow
>like a man.
>
>Sometimes I even got a chance to be lead by a woman. In this case I follow
>her in another way. I can not say that I follow like a woman, but not in the
>same way like being led by a man. I can not explain it, but I feel it.
>
>
>
>
>
>Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:06:49 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Derik writes:
> Trini writes:
>
> > "I think the surprise comes because men
> > tend to focus on vocabulary a lot and can fall back on
> > using muscles (often inadvertently), whereas women who
> > dance the man's part focus more on musicality and/or
> > do not resort to using muscle as often. So it's that
> > gentleness or musicality that they appreciate."
No doubt you lead beautifully, Trini, but from
what I've seen, most women attempting to lead ("Gosh,
what's so hard about this, if a cloddy ol' man can do
it, anyone can just pick it up in a month or two,
right?") tend to compensate for their lack of natural
presence through body mass by overusing their muscles
to lead. And musicality? Until they have considerable
leading experience, most women I see trying to lead are
so hung up on the simple mechanics of just leading their
partner that they ignore musicality, and are oblivious
to all the other responsibilities of leading, such as
navigation, to the extent that they can become
a nuisance on the floor (just like an inexperienced man).
> This is why we often hear than men are the muscle (the
> drummers who provide a strong lead and often wear
> black clothing to try to be invisible in the
> background) and the women are the melody (the music
> who influence the lead and follow the men in all of
> their mistakes, but make then men look good anyway).
Oh dear, Derik, how do all these perfect women
put up with a world full of men who can't walk and
chew gum at the same time? It's a wonder they even
allow us to live.
> To me that is not sexist. It is just Argentine Tango.
Somebody bring me a bucket. *barf*
Jeez, Derik, you often have good things to say
here, but this little self-emasculating Alan Alda
impression isn't one of them.
It takes two to tango. *That's* what is "just
Argentine tango," not some quaint performance-ballroom
notion that the man's only purpose is to form
a discreet background frame to display the painting
of his dazzling, whirling partner in a $3000 sequined
dress. And for every woman who makes a man look good,
there's a man who makes some woman look good, big deal.
Ever watch Dancing with the Stars? Besides, there's
far more to social tango than how you "look" anyway.
And for your information, we don't wear black to
be invisible, we wear black because we're bad mf's
who'd just as soon stab you as shake your hand. :)
Huck
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:46:59 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: The "brutes" are not the open embrace people. It is the reverse. Re: [TANGO-L] Teachers who lead and follow
Hola Derik!
Thanks for the picture. It is beautiful. It is tango.
The style pictured has infinite possibilities. Any
limitations you experience are your own.
For another tango picture, check out the photo of
Andres and Meredith at
https://www.umich.edu/~umtango/events/festival-jan06/
It is beautiful. It is tango. The style pictured has
infinite possibilities. Any limitations you experience
are your own.
Sean
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
just click on the link below to see a picture of
Susana Miller dancing. If the man in this picture
stepped away from her, she would fall flat on her
face.
https://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/wtsusanamiller.gif
P.S. I have danced with this woman with a very similar
embrace. (As close as I can manage.) Trust me, no
matter what the man does, she won't fall on her face.
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:17:09 -0600
From: Leonardo Kunkayo <leonardok@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
I should enter into this discussion cautiously because I have had this
discussion in private over the years without any real conclusions. As
in most of these discussions here on Tango-L, they are based mostly in
supposition and limited to the speakers own experiences and not in
facts taken from the entire tango community. Solid fact would entail a
scientific study without biases.
And I freely admit my bias that I dance any dance because I wish to
lead not follow.
Women that lead and teach may do so out of necessity to the community
they are working in and I applaud them.
Observations I have made:
1. Women who lead at a milonga automatically get fewer invites from
male leaders to dance.
A majority end up sitting on the sidelines most of the time unless they
continue to ask for dances. It appears, especially beginning and
intermediate, male leaders are very hesitant to ask for a dance.
Probably because of a lack of confidence or perhaps it is less
enjoyable.
2. Women who are in the process of learning to lead go through a
process of being poor followers. It has been my experience the follower
is sluggish in her response to marks and lead invites. Their following
skills seem to regress for at least a certain amount of time. I don't
know but think that such a student/teacher is processing. Thinking too
much. Maybe about what they would have led in place of what was being
lead. I just know that the dance does not feel right, sometimes stiff.
I can get more excitement out of leading the dance with a raw beginner
than an intermediate woman leader.
3. Women who have had many years of leading can be or are excellent
followers. I have had some very enjoyable dances with ladies in this
category although fewer than I would have liked. When switching roles
the more they have the ability to disassociate one task from the other
makes for more success.
My synopsis:
Men gain more improvement to their dance when they learn to follow than
women gain by learning to lead.
I also agree as someone said earlier, women make better followers and
men make better leaders probably because of the nature and hormones of
men and women making them better suited to the specific task.
Two leaders dancing can feel more like a fight than a dance. The
funniest exhibition I ever witnessed was when Ricardo Moncada of Austin
and Pablo Pugliese danced together. Each one was fighting to gain the
lead over the other. The crowd was estatic with laughter and applause.
May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:33:11 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Teachers who lead and follow
Sean:
I'm happy when a woman tells me I have strong lead. She doesn't mean strong
as in lifting weights. She means strong as in firm and well defined. This
is a nomenclature problem.
Michael
Washington, DC
Going to NY Saturday for the all-night milonga
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Teachers who lead and follow
> Hola Derik,
>
> Sean here. I would be very insulted if a woman told me
> that I have a strong lead. I strive to be very clear
> about my intention, but I try to never use my strength
> against a woman.
>
> Just my opinion,
>
> Sean
>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:15:19 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Switching roles and Exchange of Lead and Follow
Men dancing with men and women dancing with women happened throughout of
history of the dance. In the past there was no problem about it whatsoever
and it happened everywhere, in all circumstances, and in any historical
period.
Only they did it if there was a luck of other sex.
In tango, switching roles between a man and a woman does not make sense,
since in the regular embrace they can dance exchanging lead and follow which
is the whole new world in the man-woman relationship on the dancing floor.
In fact, women affecting men and men listening to women is a sign of the
upmost level of tango dancing.
Interested?
Igor Polk
