4096 Lead Styles
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:24:53 -0800
From: Tango Gypsie <tangogypsie@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Lead Styles
I'd like to put a subject for discussion to members of this list.
I have been dancing tango for about 7 years. I'm told I lead well but on occasion when I dance with a relatively advanced follower, the dance doesn't go well, (although she seems to dance OK with other men)
Questions:
1. How many good leaders have this experience?
2. Are there different styles of lead and do followers get used to one style and no other?
3. Is it possible for a leader to lead so well that he can always dance well with any experienced or inexperienced follower?
4. Should one be concerned about the quality of ones lead after such a dance or after several similar dances with the same follower or after several followers?
Regards
Tango Gypsie
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:41:01 -0500
From: Stephane Fymat <stephane_fymat@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
A very good leader can lead anyone, except those who insist on dancing by
themselves and rip themselves out of your embrace. A good leader can also
adapt to any woman's style while still maintaining the essence of his own.
A very good leader can inspire a woman to surrender to his lead even if she
normally does not with other men.
When you see a woman dancing well with another man, don't be fooled.
Sometimes the woman is covering up for the man's bad lead, or vice-versa,
but you wouldn't know it by watching unless you were very experienced at it.
If an advanced follower doesn't follow you well, then your lead isn't as
good as you are told it is. The people giving you compliments may
themselves not know what a really good lead is.
You might try the following:
- try being a follower at a practica. Experience what women experience.
- at a practica, ask women how they feel in your embrace, what is clear, not
clear, go for the details, etc.
- take a raw beginner out to dance who has only had 1 - 2 classes. Anytime
she does something that you did not intend, she is exposing a flaw in your
lead. I know it sounds strange given she knows nothing, but it works.
You know you have a good lead when women spontaneously tell you that your
lead is very clear and when they get spontaneous smiles on their faces after
a dance with you.
Stephane
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 12:25 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Lead Styles
I'd like to put a subject for discussion to members of this list.
I have been dancing tango for about 7 years. I'm told I lead well but on
occasion when I dance with a relatively advanced follower, the dance doesn't
go well, (although she seems to dance OK with other men)
Questions:
1. How many good leaders have this experience?
2. Are there different styles of lead and do followers get used to one
style and no other?
3. Is it possible for a leader to lead so well that he can always dance
well with any experienced or inexperienced follower?
4. Should one be concerned about the quality of ones lead after such a
dance or after several similar dances with the same follower or after
several followers?
Regards
Tango Gypsie
Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and
works with Yahoo! Mail.
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:22:54 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Tango Gypsie wrote:
I'm told I lead well but on occasion when I dance with a
relatively advanced follower, the dance doesn't go well,
(although she seems to dance OK with other men)
>
> Questions:
Are there different styles of lead and do followers get used
to one style and no other?
Is it possible for a leader to lead so well that he can
always dance well with any experienced or inexperienced
follower?
Should one be concerned about the quality of ones lead after
such a dance or after several similar dances with the same
follower or after several followers?
Dear TG:
Dancers are not like light bulbs that can be interchanged in
a lamp. Sometimes there is good chemistry and connection and
sometimes there isn't. It can't be forced. A leader can't
lead an inexperienced follower who is so stiff her muscles
lock and she can't move. This is no different than a
follower who has problems with a leader who is so stiff that
she is thrown off her balance because the man uses his arms
instead of his upper body.
There will always be a mysterious "X" factor that is the
difference between a dance and heaven. A person's
willingness to give to the partner has a lot to do with it.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 08:47:45 -0600
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Lead Styles
Lois,
Are you telling us, that after all these years, you've never been lead to do volcadas and sacadas, to the music, from within a thoughtful =
connected embrace? If so, that's a cryin' shame.
ME
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:24:44 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Not at all. We have excellent leaders here. Plus I go to festivals and
travel to BA regularly. I don't quite know how you got that out of what I
said.
Lois
Minneapolis, MN
>
> Lois,
>
>
> Are you telling us, that after all these years, you've never
> been lead to do volcadas and sacadas, to the music, from
> within a thoughtful connected embrace? If so, that's a cryin' shame.
>
> ME
>
>
--
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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:59:11 -0600
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Great letter Lois, I'm glad you had the Malbec! I'm going to call the
addressee of your open letter "Armman Eyesdown". (LOL)
Unfortunately, as you said, Armman probably won't get this message, but
we can always hope. And....what about the flip side?
For every "newbie" in which these guys spark an interest in tango, how
many more will they run off? And even if they stick around, how many of
them will ever actually learn to follow? And how many of them will ever
realize that they don't really know how to dance tango, and what a
disservice has been done to them? Armman thinks he's doing such a good
job trying to enlarge the community, but why are 90% of his targets
19-21 yrs old, with attributes that are larger than normal, and look
like they stepped off a magazine cover?
It takes me about five seconds of dancing to identify one of these
followers who was "taught" by Armman and his arm muscles. I'll finish
the rest of the excruciating tanda, but that's the last time I'll ask
them to dance, which is a shame, because in many ways it's not their
fault.
How to get the message across? Women, don't dance with him. Don't accept
his invitations. If he asks, tell him why. And if the subject comes up,
tell the "newbies" how you feel. I'm amazed and dismayed at seeing
Houston's good followers continue to accept dances with Armman, just
because they don't want to say no, or possibly hurt his feelings. And
then they complain about not being able to follow him, and disliking the
experience.
I think probably every community has at least one Armman Eyesdown, and
they usually show up early in that community's life, and do irreparable
damage for years. What a shame.
Not tipsy in Houston,
Michael
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:50 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Lead Styles
Ok, I just got back from a milonga and had maybe one too many glasses of
Malbec, but I'm going to send an open letter to some of those dancers
who
measure skill by number of years. (Even the strongest 2nd grade teacher
passes Johnnie out after two or three years)
I'm sorry that we didn't get to dance again tonight. But I just can't do
it
anymore. I know that you started years ago, back when we all did. I know
that you took lessons way back then, when we all started watching videos
of
The Tango Lesson and we knew so little about the authentic tango. Yes,
we
danced together a lot back then, and back then it was easy - I knew my
part
whether led or not. I know that, since then, you have taken the selected
workshops with the big names that came through town. You learned the
fancy
secada move from Pablo, the cool volcada move from Tomas, the fun
molinete
move from Fernando. I truly understand that private lessons are outside
your budget, and you really get all the cool moves you need from videos.
Don't get me wrong - I know what you want me to do. Your arm shoves me
where
you want. I know that you're leading a front ocho, even though you are
staring at my feet the whole time and your shoulders are leading me into
something else. If I were not so attuned, more easily manhandled, I
would do
what you wanted - even if not very elegantly. But I don't like it. I
want to
follow well, not just put on a show to make you feel like you're a
really
cool tango dancer. I want to dance between us, not for the people at
that
table over there.
So many of the newbies here love dancing with you - they tell you what a
great leader you are! But it's a shame - a year later and all of a
sudden
they think they're too good for you. What's wrong with these women!
So, to answer number 4 - yes. Be very concerned. The better followers
can be
murder to lead when you're a lousy lead. I know. Every once in a while I
get
tired of giving the "pity dance" to a bad leader and follow exactly what
he
leads instead of fixing it for him. It's not pretty.
I'm sorry. I doubt that this will be read by the people who need it.
Please-I beg you-if you forward it on, remove all reference to me.
Name Withheld to protect the tipsy
Minneapolis
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Tango Gypsie <tangogypsie@YAHOO.COM>
>
> I'd like to put a subject for discussion to members of this list.
>
> I have been dancing tango for about 7 years. I'm told I
> lead well but on occasion when I dance with a relatively
> advanced follower, the dance doesn't go well, (although she
> seems to dance OK with other men)
>
> Questions:
> 1. How many good leaders have this experience?
> 2. Are there different styles of lead and do followers get
> used to one style and no other?
> 3. Is it possible for a leader to lead so well that he can
> always dance well with any experienced or inexperienced follower?
> 4. Should one be concerned about the quality of ones lead
> after such a dance or after several similar dances with the
> same follower or after several followers?
>
> Regards
> Tango Gypsie
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:14:39 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Dear Tango Gypssie:
Answer:
Choreography and "back leading" by the "so called"
advanced follower, who is only capable of dancing with
people who have memorized the exact same tango steps.
There are many of these people in tango, and most of
them are baleet trained dancers.
In my opinion the best followers are not trained
dancers, who need to know the choreagraphy to move.
The best followers are the musicians, who can feel the
music with their partner. Argentine tango is not
about the dance, it is about the communication. The
music is what ties everything together. It is the
unifying element of the dance. One needs to have a
heart to dance tango, not perfectly memorized steps.
My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
I'd like to put a subject for discussion to members of
this list.
I have been dancing tango for about 7 years. I'm
told I lead well
but on
occasion when I dance with a relatively advanced
follower, the dance
doesn't
go well, (although she seems to dance OK with other
men)
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Tango Gypsie <tangogypsie@YAHOO.COM>
>
> I'd like to put a subject for discussion to members
> of this list.
>
> I have been dancing tango for about 7 years. I'm
> told I lead well but on
> occasion when I dance with a relatively advanced
> follower, the dance doesn't
> go well, (although she seems to dance OK with other
> men)
>
> Questions:
> 1. How many good leaders have this experience?
> 2. Are there different styles of lead and do
> followers get used to one
> style and no other?
> 3. Is it possible for a leader to lead so well
> that he can always dance
> well with any experienced or inexperienced follower?
> 4. Should one be concerned about the quality of
> ones lead after such a
> dance or after several similar dances with the same
> follower or after
> several followers?
>
> Regards
> Tango Gypsie
>
>
>
>
> Brings words and photos together (easily) with
> PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
>
>
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Sent: Monday, 13 March 2006 5:50 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Lead Styles
Ok, I just got back from a milonga and had maybe one too many glasses of
Malbec, but I'm going to send an open letter to some of those dancers
who
measure skill by number of years. (Even the strongest 2nd grade teacher
passes Johnnie out after two or three years)
I'm sorry that we didn't get to dance again tonight. But I just can't do
it
anymore. I know that you started years ago, back when we all did. I know
that you took lessons way back then, when we all started watching videos
of
The Tango Lesson and we knew so little about the authentic tango. Yes,
we
danced together a lot back then, and back then it was easy - I knew my
part
whether led or not. I know that, since then, you have taken the selected
workshops with the big names that came through town. You learned the
fancy
secada move from Pablo, the cool volcada move from Tomas, the fun
molinete
move from Fernando. I truly understand that private lessons are outside
your budget, and you really get all the cool moves you need from videos.
Don't get me wrong - I know what you want me to do. Your arm shoves me
where
you want. I know that you're leading a front ocho, even though you are
staring at my feet the whole time and your shoulders are leading me into
something else. If I were not so attuned, more easily manhandled, I
would do
what you wanted - even if not very elegantly. But I don't like it. I
want to
follow well, not just put on a show to make you feel like you're a
really
cool tango dancer. I want to dance between us, not for the people at
that
table over there.
So many of the newbies here love dancing with you - they tell you what a
great leader you are! But it's a shame - a year later and all of a
sudden
they think they're too good for you. What's wrong with these women!
So, to answer number 4 - yes. Be very concerned. The better followers
can be
murder to lead when you're a lousy lead. I know. Every once in a while I
get
tired of giving the "pity dance" to a bad leader and follow exactly what
he
leads instead of fixing it for him. It's not pretty.
I'm sorry. I doubt that this will be read by the people who need it.
Please-I beg you-if you forward it on, remove all reference to me.
Name Withheld to protect the tipsy
Minneapolis
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Tango Gypsie <tangogypsie@YAHOO.COM>
>
> I'd like to put a subject for discussion to members of this list.
>
> I have been dancing tango for about 7 years. I'm told I
> lead well but on occasion when I dance with a relatively
> advanced follower, the dance doesn't go well, (although she
> seems to dance OK with other men)
>
> Questions:
> 1. How many good leaders have this experience?
> 2. Are there different styles of lead and do followers get
> used to one style and no other?
> 3. Is it possible for a leader to lead so well that he can
> always dance well with any experienced or inexperienced follower?
> 4. Should one be concerned about the quality of ones lead
> after such a dance or after several similar dances with the
> same follower or after several followers?
>
> Regards
> Tango Gypsie
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Sent: Tuesday, 14 March 2006 1:48 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Lead Styles
Lois,
Are you telling us, that after all these years, you've never been lead
to do volcadas and sacadas, to the music, from within a thoughtful
connected embrace? If so, that's a cryin' shame.
ME
Sent: Tuesday, 14 March 2006 3:25 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Lead Styles
Not at all. We have excellent leaders here. Plus I go to festivals and
travel to BA regularly. I don't quite know how you got that out of what
I
said.
Lois
Minneapolis, MN
>
> Lois,
>
>
> Are you telling us, that after all these years, you've never
> been lead to do volcadas and sacadas, to the music, from
> within a thoughtful connected embrace? If so, that's a cryin' shame.
>
> ME
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:45:04 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Dear Michael:
There is no Arm-man Eyes Down in Houston as you
describe him. He does not exist. There are some bad
followers who have memorized a few simple steps and
call that a complete tango.
Most people here in Houston lead with their bodies,
not there arms, because, thank God, most of the people
here now are Argentines, who know what they are doing.
I myself dance Argentine tango all the time with a
wonderful woman from Buenos Aires, who has been
dancing tango for many years. She knows how to follow.
One night when she was wearing a cast on one arm, we
danced just fine with only one hand behind her back,
doing turns, ochos etc with no problem at all. An arm
man cannot do that. The lead has to be the man's
body...always, and the Argentines here all know that
is true, and this is the way they dance.
The Argentines here in Houston, also do not lean on
their partner, which you finally have finally stopped
doing. I guess you learned that in BsAs. Good for
you.
Try to be honest for a change. What you are saying is
a total fabrication. Tango needs leaders, not critics
and more importantly, it needs people to be forthright
and honest. You are not.
PS - Houston's tango dancing population has growth
substantially in this last year, and most of the
dancers are Argentines and people from countries all
over the word, who already know how to dance Argentine
tango for real. Thank God.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Great letter Lois, I'm glad you had the Malbec! I'm
> going to call the
> addressee of your open letter "Armman Eyesdown".
> (LOL)
> Unfortunately, as you said, Armman probably won't
> get this message, but
> we can always hope. And....what about the flip side?
> For every "newbie" in which these guys spark an
> interest in tango, how
> many more will they run off? And even if they stick
> around, how many of
> them will ever actually learn to follow? And how
> many of them will ever
> realize that they don't really know how to dance
> tango, and what a
> disservice has been done to them? Armman thinks he's
> doing such a good
> job trying to enlarge the community, but why are 90%
> of his targets
> 19-21 yrs old, with attributes that are larger than
> normal, and look
> like they stepped off a magazine cover?
> It takes me about five seconds of dancing to
> identify one of these
> followers who was "taught" by Armman and his arm
> muscles. I'll finish
> the rest of the excruciating tanda, but that's the
> last time I'll ask
> them to dance, which is a shame, because in many
> ways it's not their
> fault.
> How to get the message across? Women, don't dance
> with him. Don't accept
> his invitations. If he asks, tell him why. And if
> the subject comes up,
> tell the "newbies" how you feel. I'm amazed and
> dismayed at seeing
> Houston's good followers continue to accept dances
> with Armman, just
> because they don't want to say no, or possibly hurt
> his feelings. And
> then they complain about not being able to follow
> him, and disliking the
> experience.
> I think probably every community has at least one
> Armman Eyesdown, and
> they usually show up early in that community's life,
> and do irreparable
> damage for years. What a shame.
>
> Not tipsy in Houston,
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine
> Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Lois
> Donnay
> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:50 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Lead Styles
>
> Ok, I just got back from a milonga and had maybe one
> too many glasses of
> Malbec, but I'm going to send an open letter to some
> of those dancers
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 12:26:01 -0500
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@LAW.NYC.GOV>
Subject: post re lead styles
Derik, your comments succinctly crystallized for me the elements of the
elusive "tango bliss" that keeps us returning to the milonga. I was
wondering why sometimes I didnt feel a close connection with former ballet
trained dancers. I play with either the melody or the rhythm, and for me
the perfect follower realizes how I am interpreting the piece that night,
that moment, for her. Maybe a musician makes a better tango beginner than a
ballroom trained dancer. The perfect follower can also be lead from the
chest alone. So often, with followers who need a strong arm wrestler, I am
tempted to just dance with my left hand behind my back, to re-establish the
connection, which is a good device used by many teachers. Is that bad
manners on the dance floor? Far better than "talking tango" , eh?
Tangomarty in NYC.
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Dear Tango Gypssie:
Answer:
Choreography and "back leading" by the "so called"
advanced follower, who is only capable of dancing with
people who have memorized the exact same tango steps.
There are many of these people in tango, and most of
them are baleet trained dancers.
In my opinion the best followers are not trained
dancers, who need to know the choreagraphy to move.
The best followers are the musicians, who can feel the
music with their partner. Argentine tango is not
about the dance, it is about the communication. The
music is what ties everything together. It is the
unifying element of the dance. One needs to have a
heart to dance tango, not perfectly memorized steps.
My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:14:39 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lead Styles
Dear Tango Gypssie:
Answer:
Choreography and "back leading" by the "so called"
advanced follower, who is only capable of dancing with
people who have memorized the exact same tango steps.
There are many of these people in tango, and most of
them are baleet trained dancers.
In my opinion the best followers are not trained
dancers, who need to know the choreagraphy to move.
The best followers are the musicians, who can feel the
music with their partner. Argentine tango is not
about the dance, it is about the communication. The
music is what ties everything together. It is the
unifying element of the dance. One needs to have a
heart to dance tango, not perfectly memorized steps.
My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:03:17 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: post re lead styles
--- "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@LAW.NYC.GOV> wrote:
> ... So often, with followers who need a
> strong arm wrestler, I am
> tempted to just dance with my left hand behind my
> back, to re-establish the
> connection, which is a good device used by many
> teachers. Is that bad
> manners on the dance floor? Far better than "talking
> tango" , eh?
Is it bad manners? That depends on how you do it -
and what you say when the follower asks you why you're
doing it. If you make it clear that you don't like
the way she dances, or if you end up "teaching" her so
she "improves", it's still bad manners. If you can
manage to pull it off as a stunt, or believably put
the blame on yourself, it is not. Good manners is not
about justifying behavior that makes you comfortable;
it is about behaving in a way that makes the other
person comfortable.
Marisa
