4224 leading w/fingers on back
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:08:13 -0500
From: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Good morning list,
This was posted a while back, and it has stuck in my mind...I know this
method is used frequently and maybe it's effective, but to me it really
looks tacky. I'd like to find out what the followers think about a
leader who guides with fingers of right hand; what does it feel like? Is
it bad? Or am I just biased because I have no fingers to use? (I
understand that fingers can be used as part of hand/arm/whole body...I'm
talking about the really obvious stuff where leader looks like he is
pushing buttons or switching levers).
<<<<<< Then you place your hand on her back and explain to the beginner
tango dancers that the right part of her back controls her Rt. leg and
that the Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one. Then you proceed to
show the correct lead of a front ocho. You touch the lady's rt. side of
her back with the fingers of your right hand applying a slight pressure
(no stubbing here) and the lady advances her rt. leg. to your right.
Then with the area of your rt. hand close to the wrist (the tennar
prominence of the hand) you put some pressure on the lt side of the
woman's back so that she pivots and advances her lt. leg finishing the
second half of her front ocho.>>>>>>>>
What do you think, ladies (or guys too, I guess)? And thanks for your
input!
Michael from Texas
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 10:37:46 -0400
From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: michaelfigart@yahoo.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
For me, the leader's right arm and hand are live -- they move
position and indicate leads depending on what I am leading and the
experience of the follower.
It is all done very lightly -- a subtle indication/suggestion to the
follower, using position of the right hand on the followers back, and
using the fingers and heel of the hand.
And, it is done in conjunction with the leader's body movement.
In my opinion, not tacky, but a positive lead.
Marty Waxman
New York City's Thursday afternoon and Friday mid-morning practicas.
At 10:08 AM 5/4/2006, Michael Figart II wrote:
>Good morning list,
>
>This was posted a while back, and it has stuck in my mind...I know this
>method is used frequently and maybe it's effective, but to me it really
>looks tacky. I'd like to find out what the followers think about a
>leader who guides with fingers of right hand; what does it feel like? Is
>it bad? Or am I just biased because I have no fingers to use? (I
>understand that fingers can be used as part of hand/arm/whole body...I'm
>talking about the really obvious stuff where leader looks like he is
>pushing buttons or switching levers).
>
><<<<<< Then you place your hand on her back and explain to the beginner
>tango dancers that the right part of her back controls her Rt. leg and
>that the Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one. Then you proceed to
>show the correct lead of a front ocho. You touch the lady's rt. side of
>her back with the fingers of your right hand applying a slight pressure
>(no stubbing here) and the lady advances her rt. leg. to your right.
>Then with the area of your rt. hand close to the wrist (the tennar
>prominence of the hand) you put some pressure on the lt side of the
>woman's back so that she pivots and advances her lt. leg finishing the
>second half of her front ocho.>>>>>>>>
>
>What do you think, ladies (or guys too, I guess)? And thanks for your
>input!
>
>Michael from Texas
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 02:56:28 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: michaelfigart@yahoo.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
> Good morning list,
I'd like to find out what the followers think about a leader
who> guides with fingers of right hand;
> Michael from Texas
Michael:
This sounds like a leader dancing tango as if it was a
ballroom dance. In ballroom, the right hand is used for
leading because most of the dances are in an open frame
where there isn't any upper body contact.
I dance ballroom but use my palm instead of my fingers. I've
seen ballroom teachers teach Argentine tango as if it was a
ballroom dance. This could be the source.
In ballroom, the man's right hand is under the woman's left
shoulder blade. In tango, I wrap my right arm around the
small of her back to ensure good contact as buckling a seat
belt.
The "Other" Michael
Washington, DC
The pollen is killng me. I should buy stock in Pfizer
Pharmaceuticals I buy so much Sudafed.
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 15:06:52 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Another gem (IMO) from Daniel Trenner's workshop here in Portland:
Some leaders use their torso/chest. Some do it well, others do it poorly.
Some leaders use their hands/arms/fingers. Some do it well, some do it
poorly. A woman will appreciate and enjoy a well-done hand/arm lead over a
poorly done torso/chest lead.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
To: michaelfigart@yahoo.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 11:35:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "joaquin" <joaquinenrobeas@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
Another gem (IMO) from Daniel Trenner's workshop here in Portland:<br><br>Some leaders use their torso/chest. Some do it well, others do it poorly. <br>Some leaders use their hands/arms/fingers. Some do it well, some do it <br>poorly. A woman will appreciate and enjoy a well-done hand/arm lead over a <br>poorly done torso/chest lead.<br><br> J<br> go-l<br>
Jay & Michael,
I've read that Larry de Los Angeles uses this technique with some success. You can read about it on his website. However, I've asked a couple of my partners whether they would appreciate the additional information from a lead, and they both said emphatically "NO" to the fingers/palm idea. So I don't use it. I like to keep my partners happy....
joaquin
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 09:03:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hey
Since you ask, personally I don't enjoy a lot of hand action on the back. I have felt the pinch, the claw, the knead and the piano hand and I don't know what it means so it doesn't make me do things other than look puzzled. I find it distracting. A bit invasive, even, depending on the situation. I prefer the flat hand on the back, to me it feels the nicest. It's reassuringly there and yet not intrusive. I follow the axis not the hand.
This applies when I'm dancing open. No hand issues, mostly, when dancing close. Well, some beginners squeeze or fiddle when nervous. I disregard that.
Have you leaders who use the hand, found that using the hand is a reliable consistent way to make followers do stuff?
Tine
Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net> wrote:
For me, the leader's right arm and hand are live -- they move
position and indicate leads depending on what I am leading and the
experience of the follower.
It is all done very lightly -- a subtle indication/suggestion to the
follower, using position of the right hand on the followers back, and
using the fingers and heel of the hand.
And, it is done in conjunction with the leader's body movement.
In my opinion, not tacky, but a positive lead.
Marty Waxman
New York City's Thursday afternoon and Friday mid-morning practicas.
At 10:08 AM 5/4/2006, Michael Figart II wrote:
>Good morning list,
>
>This was posted a while back, and it has stuck in my mind...I know this
>method is used frequently and maybe it's effective, but to me it really
>looks tacky. I'd like to find out what the followers think about a
>leader who guides with fingers of right hand; what does it feel like? Is
>it bad? Or am I just biased because I have no fingers to use? (I
>understand that fingers can be used as part of hand/arm/whole body...I'm
>talking about the really obvious stuff where leader looks like he is
>pushing buttons or switching levers).
>
><<<<<< Then you place your hand on her back and explain to the beginner
>tango dancers that the right part of her back controls her Rt. leg and
>that the Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one. Then you proceed to
>show the correct lead of a front ocho. You touch the lady's rt. side of
>her back with the fingers of your right hand applying a slight pressure
>(no stubbing here) and the lady advances her rt. leg. to your right.
>Then with the area of your rt. hand close to the wrist (the tennar
>prominence of the hand) you put some pressure on the lt side of the
>woman's back so that she pivots and advances her lt. leg finishing the
>second half of her front ocho.>>>>>>>>
>
>What do you think, ladies (or guys too, I guess)? And thanks for your
>input!
>
>Michael from Texas
>
>
>
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 01:41:22 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
> This was posted a while back, and it has stuck in my mind...I know this
> method is used frequently and maybe it's effective, but to me it really
> looks tacky. I'd like to find out what the followers think about a
> leader who guides with fingers of right hand; what does it feel like? Is
> it bad? Or am I just biased because I have no fingers to use?
I think, ochos can be led perfectly with the body and, if you will , the
right forearm. If a man uses his hand, I prefer, like Tine, the palm of the
hand. Of course, the finger lead can be understood, esp. by beginners, but
it really depends on how he does it. Our teacher told us once about a guy in
BsAs who got the nickname "El terminador", because he would press his
fingers like claws into the woman's back, and every woman would leave him
after one song, or even before the end of the first song.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 18:45:43 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back I
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I am the author of the note on leading front ochos with your fingers as
reprinted by Michael.
I am very happy this subject came to the front. The original note was
posted by me, because some dancers of "Close embrace all the time" including
Tine (who says to be conversant with open embrace as well) thought that the
front ocho should not be taught at all as they did not liked to dance with
women that had learned such a figure. they thought the front ocho was a
nuisance.
The first time I got into a discussion on this subject was a couple of years
ago when I was Assistant Instructor for Nito and Elba at CITA - COSMOTANGO
in Buenos Aires.
We were teaching 'agujas' (needles) . I started dancing with a Japanese
girl who after a few steps stopped and said: " you lead with your arms and
hands - you should lead with your chest " . I smiled and....
I answered for the whole group: There are several styles of tango, each one
with its own technique. In close embrace we lead with the chest. In open
embrace we teach to lead initially with the hand and fingers and secondarily
with your chest or torso.
Here we are in a lesson of 'agujas', a beautiful figure that at this time is
being done in open embrace.
We normally teach to dance in close embrace and to lead with the chest and
we start open embrace teaching to lead with the hands .
This is logical because when the torsos are apart the arms are an extension
of the body . The arms transmit the motion intention of the torso. This is
one of the reasons to keep good muscular tone in your arms as you are
dancing. Then we progress to incorporate leading with the chest as well.
Using the body to block or to open space inducing the moves of the woman.
Leading with your legs, the thigh or the calf, etc, etc.
We do exercises where we lead ochos and other movements without any contact
of the bodies . The woman follows visually the chest of the man. When we
teach canyengue style we use both the hands and the torso the same as
eventually we do in Salon open and close embrace.
Those that only learned close embrace milonguero (as taught by Susana
Miller) are going to lead with their chest and out of ignorance think that
any other form of leading is wrong, such was the case of the Japanese
student.
Finally the use of arms, hands and fingers is so subtle that it is barely
felt by the lady that has the open hand of the man on her back, nobody else
is able to distinguish any lead whatsoever.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 19:19:31 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back II - The soap opera
continues.
To: tango-l@mit.edu
We should understand then that each tango style has a different teaching
technique because it has a different technique all together.
Most famous tango instructors of Salon style open and close embrace, teach
as described by me in my last note. They instruct in the use of arms,
hands, fingers, chest, torso, body, legs, thighs and calves. (Nito, Zotto,
Carlos Copello, Mingo Pugliese, Diego , etc, and all the instructors of
Nuevo).
The only ones that instruct in leading with the chest only are the
instructors of 'Close embrace all the time' ( Susana Miller, etc.).
Those of us that had as sequencial instruction : Salon open, close,
milonguero, nuevo, canyengue . learned all the possible leads and use them
in our dancing and in our teaching.
Those that only learned 'Close embrace all the time' know how to lead with
the chest only, and this is enough for the style they do.
Example: We lead a boleo in Salon open with the hand at the back and the
chest, in close embrace salon or milonguero just with the chest, in nuevo
with the chest by doing countemotion.
Most elements differ in technique and in lead.
In this group there are people that are intelligent and know by now, that
there are other ways to dance and to lead than their own.
Then we have the likes of Michael Figart II that not only are ignorant but
are ignorant of their own ignorance as well, and refuse to recognize that
there is more than one way in which you can cook an omelet.
I recently had some private e-mail exchange with Michael. He wished to
argue the subject of what we should consider 'Social Tango'. I patiently
explained again to him that any style of tango done socially following the
milonga codes is 'social tango' and any style done on stage or during an
exhibition is 'stage tango'. So you frequently see people doing close
embrace all the time in exhibitions and you can see tango fantasia done
socially.
I advised him to avoid problems in the future and just say : "I dance close
embrace all the time and I do things this way" period, and refrain to
criticize other styles or even to compare in a negative way, to avoid
problems.
Guess what ? ten minutes later he posts my note on leading with fingers
calling this form of leading "tacky". In his ignorance he believed that all
the tango dancers were going to agree with him but by now there are very few
left like him and we all know where they are coming from.
As I said before this is the ignorant, ignorant of his own ignorance and
totally blind and unable to understand. the blind leading the blind.
So be it! Derik I understand your frustration now.
Best regards, Sergio.
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back II -
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> The only ones that instruct in leading with the
> chest only are the
> instructors of 'Close embrace all the time' (
> Susana Miller, etc.).
Actually, Susana Miller does advocate leading with the
arms and hands, even with the ear lobes if necessary.
It took us by surprise. She fussed over that with us
last year because she didn't think the men were
leading the women strongly enough during the ocho
cortado and turns to the right. They were not
engaging their arms.
I have also felt a type of hand lead from Robert Hauk,
at least I interpreted it as such since he was
pressing my back fairly strongly in different ways.
It could be that he was just trying to maintain a
strong torso connection though I was trying my dardest
to become his skin.
Oh, and for the diagonal embrace on the man's back -
I have heard from an excellent, excellent dancer that
Alicia Pons (another milonguero-style dancer) uses it
to press the back of the man to get him to pause. I
guess she uses that, along with her grounding to
suggest pauses.
I think the bottom line is that one has to do what is
necessary to make a clear invitation.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:36:54 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back II - The soap opera
continues.
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> The only ones that instruct in leading with the chest only are the
> instructors of 'Close embrace all the time' ( Susana Miller, etc.).
That is false to fact WRT to Susanna. A lot of people put
words in people's mouths on this list. Others need to take
a hefty dose of Sombunal (some-but-not-all).
I've heard Susanna specifically say that milongueros do not
always use the chest to lead, in some situations they also
use the hands, and I took a class in which she specifically
taught a figure where the hands got used. (And of course,
no one got it right).
Her point at the time was that milongueros use all the tools
they have, and that the primary considerations are the clarity
of communication and comfort of the woman.
In fact, I've heard a lot of people make absolute statements
in the form of "Milonguero style is this" or "Milonguero style
is that", and in the 10-12 classes I've taken with her, she has
violated every one of those absolute statements. I have seen
her teach sequences where torsos separate, pivoting back
ochos, figures led with the hands, men to walk backwards for
several beats, you name it.
I am left to conclude that by "Milonguero style" she means
the possibilities of the dance that the bulk of the non-pro
oldtimers (think bell curve) in BsAs choose, and nothing more.
What the hell, it's still a bigger range of possibilities
than anyone on this list will ever master in this lifetime.
Being able to dance any style is OK, but that probably leaves
the dancer of average talent and/or practice time as a jack of
all trades, master of none.
Christopher
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:12:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
Hi Jay,
Sean here. Long time no see! That sure sounds like
Trenner. He taught me one of the most important things
I ever learned about social tango. That is, if you
can?t lead something very well, don?t lead it at a
milonga. Perfect it at the practica first.
More importantly, he was the first person to start
teaching me how to dance. Before Trenner I was what
Andrea would probably call a UPS-er. FedEx-er might be
a better description: like a UPS-er, but way faster.
Sergio complained that some of his students are angry
because he taught them the "wrong style". They should
be grateful to have found a teacher like him. Imagine
how pissed off I was after finding out that I had
taken 4 years of tango classes without anyone ever
trying to teach me how to dance. It took me a few
years to get over it. Not until I was able to watch
them dance at a milonga did I realize that they were
not trying to cheat me or keep me an ignorant student
forever. They had taught me to do tango exactly the
same way they did it.
Now, when someone asks me how long I have been doing
tango I say "10 years". If they ask me how long I have
been dancing tango, I say "6 years".
Sean
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
Another gem (IMO) from Daniel Trenner's workshop
here in Portland:
Some leaders use their torso/chest. Some do it well,
others do it poorly. Some leaders use their
hands/arms/fingers. Some do it well, some do it
poorly. A woman will appreciate and enjoy a well-done
hand/arm lead over a poorly done torso/chest lead.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:16:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
Hi Jay,
Sean here. Long time no see! That sure sounds like
Trenner. He taught me one of the most important things
I ever learned about social tango. That is, if you
can?t lead something very well, don?t lead it at a
milonga. Perfect it at the practica first.
More importantly, he was the first person to start
teaching me how to dance. Before Trenner I was what
Andrea would probably call a UPS-er. A FedEx-er might
be a better description: like a UPS-er, but way
faster.
Sergio complained that some of his students are angry
because he taught them the "wrong style". They should
be grateful to have found a teacher like him. Imagine
how pissed off I was after finding out that I had
taken 4 years of tango classes without anyone ever
trying to teach me how to dance. It took me a few
years to get over it. Not until I was able to watch
them dance at a milonga did I realize that they were
not trying to cheat me or keep me an ignorant student
forever. They had taught me to do tango exactly the
same way they did it.
Now, when someone asks me how long I have been doing
tango I say "10 years". If they ask me how long I have
been dancing tango, I say "6 years".
Sean
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
Another gem (IMO) from Daniel Trenner's workshop
here in Portland:
Some leaders use their torso/chest. Some do it well,
others do it poorly. Some leaders use their
hands/arms/fingers. Some do it well, some do it
poorly. A woman will appreciate and enjoy a well-done
hand/arm lead over a poorly done torso/chest lead.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 23:26:53 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back II -
I remember a workshop several years ago with Metin Yazir. He was teaching a
figure in an open embrace and at one point had paused because his student
follower hadn't recognized his lead. He raised his eyebrows, questioning,
and she realized she was supposed to step, and did so.
So you can add the "eyebrow lead" to the many styles of leading.
:-)
J
www.TangoMoments.com
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:41:12 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Being on the novice side of the learning curve, and totally accepting that
there are no absolutes (except for this statement) I am finding this thread
interesting.
I have been taught and I primarily dance Salon Open is that you lead with
your chest/axis. In fact have seen it demonstrated that a good follow does need
to be touched by a good lead to be able to dance 99% of available figures.
Now the issue is I have to put this in practice.
On this premise, I see the use of the hand or arm for two principle
purposes: First, for safety, to protect your partner from harm, i.e. to prevent
him/her from being run into or you running her into someone that you didn't see or
who moved into your LOD unexpectedly. The second, purpose is to move your
partner in a direction that she would not intuitively expect to go. This was
introduced to me at a workshop and sorry, I can't remember the figure or the
step, but I do remember being told to use, and as Tine indicated the flat hand
to guide your follow in the direction you wish her to go.
With that said, anything that works and is acceptable to both dancers is
probable ok. I just have been taught to be a quiet and subtle as possible while
dance and that is the direction I am attempting to go.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 5/4/2006 3:29:14 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
yaletangoclub@yahoo.com writes:
Hey
Since you ask, personally I don't enjoy a lot of hand action on the back. I
have felt the pinch, the claw, the knead and the piano hand and I don't know
what it means so it doesn't make me do things other than look puzzled. I find
it distracting. A bit invasive, even, depending on the situation. I prefer
the flat hand on the back, to me it feels the nicest. It's reassuringly there
and yet not intrusive. I follow the axis not the hand.
This applies when I'm dancing open. No hand issues, mostly, when dancing
close. Well, some beginners squeeze or fiddle when nervous. I disregard that.
Have you leaders who use the hand, found that using the hand is a reliable
consistent way to make followers do stuff?
Tine
Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net> wrote:
For me, the leader's right arm and hand are live -- they move
position and indicate leads depending on what I am leading and the
experience of the follower.
It is all done very lightly -- a subtle indication/suggestion to the
follower, using position of the right hand on the followers back, and
using the fingers and heel of the hand.
And, it is done in conjunction with the leader's body movement.
In my opinion, not tacky, but a positive lead.
Marty Waxman
New York City's Thursday afternoon and Friday mid-morning practicas.
At 10:08 AM 5/4/2006, Michael Figart II wrote:
>Good morning list,
>
>This was posted a while back, and it has stuck in my mind...I know this
>method is used frequently and maybe it's effective, but to me it really
>looks tacky. I'd like to find out what the followers think about a
>leader who guides with fingers of right hand; what does it feel like? Is
>it bad? Or am I just biased because I have no fingers to use? (I
>understand that fingers can be used as part of hand/arm/whole body...I'm
>talking about the really obvious stuff where leader looks like he is
>pushing buttons or switching levers).
>
><<<<<< Then you place your hand on her back and explain to the beginner
>tango dancers that the right part of her back controls her Rt. leg and
>that the Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one. Then you proceed to
>show the correct lead of a front ocho. You touch the lady's rt. side of
>her back with the fingers of your right hand applying a slight pressure
>(no stubbing here) and the lady advances her rt. leg. to your right.
>Then with the area of your rt. hand close to the wrist (the tennar
>prominence of the hand) you put some pressure on the lt side of the
>woman's back so that she pivots and advances her lt. leg finishing the
>second half of her front ocho.>>>>>>>>
>
>What do you think, ladies (or guys too, I guess)? And thanks for your
>input!
>
>Michael from Texas
>
>
>
>Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L mailing list
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Tango-L mailing list
Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 14:55:02 +0100 (BST)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading w/fingers on back
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Dear All!
Below is the way I was taught as well. However, I have
since empirically found out that most of the "old
guard" who teach this way don't actually apply it when
on the dance floor, but lead "with the body" without
being aware of it. The most important element in the
dance, whatever the style, is the Centre of Gravity.
It would appear that we lead from the chest, but this
is only to project the CoG forward: our partner can
feel this and moves accordingly. As a consequence I
have now for many years been making my men keep their
right hand in their pocket, and lead from the CoG from
the very beginning. The use of the right hand to lead
usually degenerates into shunting the woman like a
sack of potatoes, as well described by Tine:
"....personally I don't enjoy a lot of hand action on
the back. I have felt the pinch, the claw, the knead
and the piano hand and I don't know what it means so
it doesn't make me do things other than look
puzzled....."
Actually, this way of leading, being very mechanical,
desensitises the woman and is quite tiring for the
man.
Cheers,
Andy.
--- Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net> wrote:
> For me, the leader's right arm and hand are live --
> they move
> position and indicate leads depending on what I am
> leading and the
> experience of the follower.
> It is all done very lightly -- a subtle
> indication/suggestion to the
> follower, using position of the right hand on the
> followers back, and
> using the fingers and heel of the hand.
> And, it is done in conjunction with the leader's
> body movement.
>
> In my opinion, not tacky, but a positive lead.
>
> Marty Waxman
> New York City's Thursday afternoon and Friday
> mid-morning practicas.
>
>
> At 10:08 AM 5/4/2006, Michael Figart II wrote:
> >Good morning list,
> >
> >This was posted a while back, and it has stuck in
> my mind...I know this
> >method is used frequently and maybe it's effective,
> but to me it really
> >looks tacky. I'd like to find out what the
> followers think about a
> >leader who guides with fingers of right hand; what
> does it feel like? Is
> >it bad? Or am I just biased because I have no
> fingers to use? (I
> >understand that fingers can be used as part of
> hand/arm/whole body...I'm
> >talking about the really obvious stuff where leader
> looks like he is
> >pushing buttons or switching levers).
> >
> ><<<<<< Then you place your hand on her back and
> explain to the beginner
> >tango dancers that the right part of her back
> controls her Rt. leg and
> >that the Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one.
> Then you proceed to
> >show the correct lead of a front ocho. You touch
> the lady's rt. side of
> >her back with the fingers of your right hand
> applying a slight pressure
> >(no stubbing here) and the lady advances her rt.
> leg. to your right.
> >Then with the area of your rt. hand close to the
> wrist (the tennar
> >prominence of the hand) you put some pressure on
> the lt side of the
> >woman's back so that she pivots and advances her
> lt. leg finishing the
> >second half of her front ocho.>>>>>>>>
> >
> >What do you think, ladies (or guys too, I guess)?
> And thanks for your
> >input!
> >
> >Michael from Texas
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.
