3072 learning to be social dancers
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:46:53 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: learning to be social dancers
Yesterday I received my copy of El Once Tango News (Issue 45) published by
Paul Lange and Michiko Okazaki in London, England.
Among the many interesting articles, Julia Wilkinson wrote an open letter to
teachers of tango, which makes a very good point.
Why do some of you teach us stage tango? The majority of salon dancers in
London are social dancers. We are not professional athletes, although we do
need to be physically fit. Dancing long steps, large pasos and galloping
ganchos means that many ladies return home covered in bruises with torn
stockings, bleeding feet and strained backs. It is disconcerting to be
floating round the dance floor on cloud nine to be suddenly stabbed by a
heel, elbowed in the back or knocked off balance by other dancers.
Respect of others and their dancing space is paramount in tango. Yet the
phrase "rugby scrum" has come to mind every Friday I have danced recently.
Unless our teachers explain and instill the codes of our wonderful dance
into the leaders we will become a lesser group.
Tango allows men to be gentlemen and considerate and women to respond
accordingly. A man should aim to take care of his partner for the three
minutes duration. . . .
Teachers, please teach us about the social side. We cannot dance
comfortably and change partners unless we respect each other's space and
learn to dance discretely in a small space . . . . Stage dancing is
wonderful on the stage (and when there is lots of space); close embrace is
wonderful in a busy salon.
Thanks, Julia. Let's hope that many teachers read your letter and start
teaching social tango in the new year.
I've been reading El Once since its first issues. Subscriptions are
available.
www.elonce.dircon.co.uk
Janis Kenyon
Buenos Aires
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:59:10 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Social dancers
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Ahem,
I'm really getting tired of hearing this idolatry of the social dance.
Those of you who prefer it vocally, and argue for its merits here, keep
blaming the hotshots, the performers, the nuevo dancers for making
things hectic on the floor, and you continue to exalt the private
meditation or 3-minute tryst over the (supposed) vulgarities of public
display. But it's a false dichotomy, and is really skewing the
perspective unduly in favor of "social dancing."
Crowd conditions aside, I've seen more floorcraft problems caused by
close-embrace "social" dancers than by anyone else, including beginners.
The show-offs may dance twice as quickly, and with ten times the
vocabulary, but they rarely crash or cause others any actual grief on
the floor. Rather, it's the social dancers, who move more slowly (which
is fine per se), that clog up the lanes, move against traffic, tailgate
unnecessarily, and fail to adapt their embrace (leader's left arm
especially) to the conditions of the moment. I can't count the number of
times I've been clotheslined by some "social dancer" schmuck who refused
to reel that sucker in on a crowded floor-- and I'm talking about
moments when I dance close & small, with my left arm behind my back and
my partner's right hand on my shoulder, to create more room for others.
There I am, the nuevo guy doing his part for the team, and here comes
some moron with his flying fist-- during a p a u s e in the music.
Hotshot performers _look_ intimidating, but on a night of imperfect
floorcraft (which is 95% of nights), you're far safer next to them than
you are in the general mix.
This is the case in DC, at both weekly dances and the area festivals; I
imagine it's not too different elsewhere, provided there is even room to
do an ocho cortado.
Furthermore, the "stage" (which I interpret to mean: show performances
as well as festival performances) is NOT reserved for hotshot dancers
only. I've seen many a "salon" performance as well. It's really quite
pointless to imagine that these boundaries aren't porous.
As a dancer who likes delighting the onlooker, and one who dances many
styles, including nuevo (when the floor and the music are right for it),
I'm going to stick up for hotshots. We attract new people to the dance;
we give passersby something to truly enjoy; we give rising talents
something artful to admire and emulate. We thrill our partners, and
leave them brushing a little improv stardust out of their hair. We make
the dance Dance. AND we put up with all these bullshit accusations,
coming from "social dancers" who are only out to please themselves with
their myopic little pseudo-love affairs on the pista, and who are too
self-absorbed to avoid getting in each other's way.
Now, I know male social dancers who can dance with shut eyes and not hit
anyone. Plenty exist, and they're a pleasure to have on the floor. But
the bad floorcraft at milongas isn't coming from their supposed
"opposites"-- the nuevo kids; rather, it comes from Bad Dancers, most of
whom, if I dare speak the truth, belong to the "social dance only" category.
Why is this the case? Welcome to the interesting part...
Social dancers _deliberately_ restrict themselves to a small vocabulary
of moves, under the aegis of refinement and simplicity. This is often a
noble-sounding excuse for the absence of skill, but that's no matter.
What Does matter is that they can't navigate as effectively or as
flexibly-- because they've cut themselves off from the wider variety of
movements.
Moreover, in the attempt to cast a profound spell on themselves and
their partner, they ignore much of what's around them. I mean other
dancers. And I mean other dancers sitting at tables as well as
non-dancers passing by for a look-see.
Like Dani, I had performing experience prior to my tango kidnapping.
None of it was in dance. Pleasing an audience in any performance medium
is an act of generosity, and it's quite inseparable from pleasing one's
partner, as I imagine EVERY tango performer (except those bizarre
choreography robot-people) knows full well. The notion that you can only
please one or the other-- like the related opinion that you must put one
of them first-- is plumb wrong, and spoken in ignorance.
So is the silly idea that pleasing a crowd, or a single bystander, is
egotistical. It is, rather, the annihilation of ego, the subordination
of self to an external Purpose, known, often, as entertainment, and,
occasionally, as art.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Ron Weigel wrote:
> On 7/12/06, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
>
>> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
>> Dani
>>
>> Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>
> OK, so dancing for the audience is preferred over dancing with your partner?
>
> So I guess it only takes ONE to tango.
>
> The stage is reserved for those who dance for the audience. (By the
> way, good stage dancers have good partner connection technique. Good
> stage dancers also dance a social style at the milongas.)
>
> Those who prefer to dance with our partners would like to have the
> social dance floor available to us. Sometimes we get in the way of the
> performers who have descended from the stage onto the social dance
> floor. Sorry about that.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 15:53:00 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social dancers
To: tango-L@mit.edu
> Ahem,
>
> I'm really getting tired of hearing this idolatry of the social dance.
> ...
> Crowd conditions aside, I've seen more floorcraft problems caused by
> close-embrace "social" dancers than by anyone else, including
> beginners.
> The show-offs may dance twice as quickly, and with ten times the
> vocabulary, but they rarely crash or cause others any actual grief on
> the floor. Rather, it's the social dancers, who move more slowly
> (which
> is fine per se), that clog up the lanes, move against traffic,
> tailgate
> unnecessarily, and fail to adapt their embrace (leader's left arm
> especially) to the conditions of the moment. I can't count the
> number of
> times I've been clotheslined by some "social dancer" schmuck who
> refused
> to reel that sucker in on a crowded floor-- and I'm talking about ...
> Jake Spatz
> Washington, DC
I'm trying to imagine all those slow-moving social dancers colliding
with the fast moving nuevo dancers.
Jake, have you seen the same thing at milongas in Buenos Aires, or at
festivals in other parts of the US? From my travels, i would have to
say slow-moving social dancers running into fast moving nuevo dancers
might be something specific to Washington, DC.
Also, you are completely free not to like social dancing. Nobody is
forcing you to dance socially. There are no tango police telling you
what to do. You can dance ballroom tango at a milonga, if you like.
You can invent new tango moves. You can mix country western moves
with tango, or salsa with tango. You can dance on stage or on the walls.
As a teacher, you are free to train up your dancers as you see fit.
Invent your own version of tango.
In short, you are not a victim of those social dancers.
But, a Milonga is a social tango dance, right?
I do understand why Ron Weigel would complain about wannabe stage
dancers running amok at a milonga. I was once standing next to him at
his milonga when a guy picked up his partner and began flinging her
from side to side around his waist, while she wiggled her feet up and
down. I'm not sure who teaches that move (the "Mermaid?"), but at a
milonga it felt more than a little bit out of place, and could have
wacked some of the other dancers if they hadn't cleared the floor.
But, even Ron would be the first to agree that, there is nothing
wrong with performance tango or nuevo tango. Nobody says there is.
What about context?
The issue is a matter of context: are we on stage, practice or
milonga or in a fountain at the park? What is the feel of the crowd?
How do I fit in with the line of dance and the other dancers. Are the
floors crowded or empty?
i've noticed when the Argentine stage dancers attend a social dance
(aka Milonga), they adjust their style to fit in with the general
crowd. Or, if they aren't particularly social dancers, they do their
performance, and then sit at their own table chatting or watching.
What about age and athletic ability?
In Argentina you see people dancing tango into their 80s, but hardly
any of those older dancers are doing stage or nuevo. I've watched
some beautiful shows with very athletic dancers. Most of the women
have years of ballet, and the men train intensively.
I like to watch lithe young bodies trained to perfection, as long as
their performance is musical and expressive, not just technical. On
the other hand, I've seen amateur shows that are pretty embarrassing.
Why do they think anybody wants to watch them? What's with the hat
and scarf?
What about outreach and community growth?
Yes, I will do a demo dance for random public audiences, but I prefer
to show the romance of social tango because I want the audience to
think "Wow, even I can do that". For me it is a matter of community
growth, and there are a hell of a lot more "normal" people than
athletic ones. More importantly, most guys don't want anything to do
with being on stage.
As Stephen Brown said a couple of years ago: "The sizzle sells the
sizzle; not the steak".
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 09:07:35 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social dancers
I personally think Jake's post is an unmitigated, reeking crock of manure:
TangoDC.com wrote:
> Ahem,
>
> I'm really getting tired of hearing this idolatry of the social dance.
> Those of you who prefer it vocally, and argue for its merits here, keep
> blaming the hotshots, the performers, the nuevo dancers for making
> things hectic on the floor, and you continue to exalt the private
> meditation or 3-minute tryst over the (supposed) vulgarities of public
> display. But it's a false dichotomy, and is really skewing the
> perspective unduly in favor of "social dancing."
>
As opposed to anti-social dancing, I suppose? But that's the obvious
potshot.
What we "social" dancers most precisely object to are 2 particular sets
of behaviors,
which have little to do with what style of tango you dance, but close
embrace dancers
by definition can't do all that well:
-- zipping sideways into free spaces across lanes
-- taking up more than a fair share of available floor space
if you navigate well, by definition you are a social dancer, no matter
what your vocabulary or speed.
> Crowd conditions aside, I've seen more floorcraft problems caused by
> close-embrace "social" dancers than by anyone else, including beginners.
> The show-offs may dance twice as quickly, and with ten times the
> vocabulary, but they rarely crash or cause others any actual grief on
> the floor.
False to facts. I've seen a boleo cause a trip to the emergency room,
and an incident where if someone had 4 been inches further to the left
they would have had a pair of stilleto heels buried to the hilt in their
back.
Next to that, I'll take slow close embrace dancers any day.
> Rather, it's the social dancers, who move more slowly (which
> is fine per se),
so why mention it?
> that clog up the lanes, move against traffic, tailgate
> unnecessarily,
What's tailgating to you? Shall I give you that 3 feet for the backstep
when
everyone else in the room has 8 inches to play with?
> and fail to adapt their embrace (leader's left arm
> especially) to the conditions of the moment.
Red Herring.
> I can't count the number of
> times I've been clotheslined by some "social dancer" schmuck who refused
> to reel that sucker in on a crowded floor-- and I'm talking about
> moments when I dance close & small, with my left arm behind my back and
> my partner's right hand on my shoulder, to create more room for others.
>
Aren't you the goody two shoes?
> There I am, the nuevo guy doing his part for the team, and here comes
> some moron with his flying fist--
I call BS. I'm in BsAs now, in the most crowded conditions I've ever
seen, with
space ranging from 2 feet to sometimes less than 12 inches between couples,
(which the locals will tell you is not crowded at all), and I've not
been clotheslined,
and I've never seen it happen. And what's more, the quality of dance
isn't as
high as all that where I go (the best dancers have an insider's club
here). And
out of thousands of couples, every person not dancing in close embrace has
been an obvious non-Argentine except for exactly 3: one is a well known
denizen
of the local milongas considered exceptionally awful (though he does
navigate OK),
and 2 were obvious beginners trying to do the 8 count basic and front ochos,
(rather endearing they were, ther reminded me of me 3 years ago).
Backstepping non-Argentines dancing like insane weasels on amphetamines
while looking at the floor, that's a problem in the tourist milongas
I've been
to here (Canning Monday nights is horrible for that). I even saw a pair
of idiots
trying to dance ballroom and Viennese Waltz steps at El Arranque last week.
The local elite dance (that I know of) at El Beso on Tuesday and
Thursday nights
and Gricel on Monday night; you've got lots of people with their arms
extended
nearly horizontally, and they don't have any more problems than the
Balmaceda
look alikes with followers hanging from their thumbs. After all, they can
see to the left, and no one is doing anything dumbass like moving into
their blind
spot on the right. No one dances with their left hand behind their
backs, it's not
necessary at all, and followers need that left hand.
> during a p a u s e in the music.
>
One man's pause is another man's contratiempo. I don't know, is the One
Right Interpretation school of musical interpretation in good odor these
days?
> Hotshot performers _look_ intimidating, but on a night of imperfect
> floorcraft (which is 95% of nights), you're far safer next to them than
> you are in the general mix.
>
Not the places I've been. Why do you think Andres Amarillo teaches a class
entitled, "How to share the floor with traditional dancers and not make
them
hate you"?
At Gricel on Monday night, the only people having continuous navigation
problems were some obvious foreigners that lost their way to Villa Malcolm.
They eventually found their way to the middle of the floor with the rest of
the idiotas, and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Hotshots other
than those?
Not to be seen. Crowded? Nope, it was a wide open floor, at least 8
feet of
room.
> This is the case in DC, at both weekly dances and the area festivals; I
> imagine it's not too different elsewhere, provided there is even room to
> do an ocho cortado.
>
Ocho cortados can happen with foot movements less than 4 inches, or upwards
of 24 inches, so your statment means nothing
> Furthermore, the "stage" (which I interpret to mean: show performances
> as well as festival performances) is NOT reserved for hotshot dancers
> only.
You don't know much about stage dancers of tango. See below.
> I've seen many a "salon" performance as well. It's really quite
> pointless to imagine that these boundaries aren't porous.
>
Film at 11:00. Tell us something we don't already know.
> As a dancer who likes delighting the onlooker, and one who dances many
> styles, including nuevo (when the floor and the music are right for it),
> I'm going to stick up for hotshots. We attract new people to the dance;
> we give passersby something to truly enjoy; we give rising talents
> something artful to admire and emulate. We thrill our partners, and
> leave them brushing a little improv stardust out of their hair. We make
> the dance Dance.
1. A Cluestick Upside The Head (TM) for you: If it's good tango,
everyone will enjoy it. If it's bad tango, only the ignorant
can appreciate it; for Those Who Know, it's plain revolting.
2. I don't know if you can dance or not, having never seen you.
But, lets see, you've been dancing tango regularly since October,
2004. Less than 2 years. Maybe, you were born with the balance
of a cat, the body control of Marcus Allen, Piazzola's grasp of
the music, the discipline of Charlie Parker, Baryshnikov's stamina,
and Chicho's ability to embody dance concepts, and practiced 12
hours a day. Far more likely: you're way too impressed with
yourself and the only people you thrill are beginners and the
unknowledgeable.
> AND we put up with all these bullshit accusations,
> coming from "social dancers" who are only out to please themselves with
> their myopic little pseudo-love affairs on the pista, and who are too
> self-absorbed to avoid getting in each other's way.
>
Can you say, "Straw man?" I know you could.
> Now, I know male social dancers who can dance with shut eyes and not hit
> anyone. Plenty exist, and they're a pleasure to have on the floor. But
> the bad floorcraft at milongas isn't coming from their supposed
> "opposites"-- the nuevo kids; rather, it comes from Bad Dancers, most of
> whom, if I dare speak the truth, belong to the "social dance only" category.
>
Bad dancers belong mostly to the social dance group because there are more
people trying to do "social tango" than there are those who identify
themselves
as "hotshots". Hotshots are a minority; frankly, most of them are wannabes.
So, your statement is true, but doesn't address the problem that
hotshots without
the skills to back up what they do, are a nightmare compared to the slow
motion
train wreck of ordinary bad social dancers.
> Why is this the case? Welcome to the interesting part...
>
> Social dancers _deliberately_ restrict themselves to a small vocabulary
> of moves, under the aegis of refinement and simplicity.
False to facts. However, it would be true if you prepended the words,
"Some but
not all" or the single word "many" to your statement.
> This is often a
> noble-sounding excuse for the absence of skill, but that's no matter.
>
Ad hominem.
> What Does matter is that they can't navigate as effectively or as
> flexibly-- because they've cut themselves off from the wider variety of
> movements.
>
Disproof by counterexample:
In the milongas, I use nothing but steps forward and to the side, a
change of face, a few
ways of doing front and back ochos and a couple of turns in each
direction. I *don't*
have the navigation problems you claim I should be having, even when
there's a foot
or less between couples.
When traffic is gridlocked, you inch along a few feet at a time, and
when it's crowded
in the milongas you keep it small and slow. How small and slow? Feet
moving 4 to 6
(or less) inches at a time, couples not moving at all down the line of
dance for 8, 16, or
24 beats at a time and then easing maybe a foot down the LOD over 4
beats. When you
have all the time in the world and no agenda, who needs more, and why
should there
ever be a collision?
> Moreover, in the attempt to cast a profound spell on themselves and
> their partner, they ignore much of what's around them. I mean other
> dancers. And I mean other dancers sitting at tables as well as
> non-dancers passing by for a look-see.
>
You've only managed to give conclusive proof that followers heads are
not made of air.
The real cause of collisions (and most other awkwardnesses) is leaders
being unable
to give up a fixed agenda. And that's mostly inexperience on the way to
becoming
experience.
> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
> DaniLike Dani, I had performing experience prior to my tango kidnapping.
> None of it was in dance. Pleasing an audience in any performance medium
> is an act of generosity, and it's quite inseparable from pleasing one's
> partner, as I imagine EVERY tango performer
Key word here: imagine. Not a word to sustain an argument on, when you
don't
know the facts.
Most (but not all, say 90+%) tango performers in Buenos Aires have a
background
in Jazz and Modern dance, and found work in a tango show. They know
absolutely
nothing about tango, don't move like tango dancers, and
> (except those bizarre choreography robot-people)
they have to be "choreography robot-people" just to eat
> knows full well.
and so they don't knowhow to lead or follow. Repeat, the large majority
of tango
performers are those "bizarre choreography robot-people" and haven't a clue
about pleasing a partner, because they don't have to.
Performers who actually dance socially on a regular basis are a great
rarity in
the tango world. Usually, stage performers show up in the milongas when
they
have a tour group from out of the country. The exceptions that I know
of are
Gavito, Oscar Mandagaran, Omar Vega, Maria Plazaola and Milena Plebs,
though
there may certainly be more.
Omar is perceived by some as dancing mostly for himself (by those who also
admit he is a genius), which makes him no less spectacular. Oscar,
Milena and
Maria would no doubt vigorously disagree with you as to their priorities
at the
milonga: they dance for personal pleasure only, as did Gavito.
Unfortunately, 5 is not a proper statistical sample. But I'm
comfortable with
the notion that performers at a milonga aren't there to impress anybody (not
even themselves).
> The notion that you can only
> please one or the other-- like the related opinion that you must put one
> of them first-- is plumb wrong, and spoken in ignorance.
>
That must mean, if I dance only to please my partner, I will automatically
please onlookers. But that is false to facts. A bailarin can dance in
a way
that would leave you scratching your head, but a bailarina would be
ecstatic.
Oscar Mandagaran has moments like that, with little mincing foot movements
that seem to go nowhere at all.
OTOH, I have seen plenty of performances here in Baires that pleased many
onlookers, but which even I in my less than fully knowledgeable state
can see
as technically awful and unmusical, and I can assure you would be a
nightmare
experience for followers who are actually good.
> So is the silly idea that pleasing a crowd, or a single bystander, is
> egotistical.
Another strawman. More likely, it's the overestimate of one's capacity to
do hotshot moves and not actually cause problems that is egotistical.
Sure,
it's not a monopoly of hotshots, but egotism and incompetence reinforce
each other.
> It is, rather, the annihilation of ego,
<sticks tongue firmly in cheek>
So, if annihilating your ego is a Good Thing (TM), why exactly are
you trying to win this argument?
> the subordination
> of self to an external Purpose, known, often, as entertainment, and,
> occasionally, as art.
Bleah. You rave on and on about being on the receiving end of the moral
superiority of social dancers, why leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth,
by resorting to it here?
Christopher
PS. Food for thought: by tself (and outside the discussion of whether Nuevo
is "authentic") authentic tango is such a large universe, that a
lifetime of
experience might enable the very greatest dancers to embody a tenth of
it (if they even wanted to learn many styles). How much do any of us really
knowanything about tango, Jake?
> Jake Spatz
> Washington, DC
>
>
> Ron Weigel wrote:
>
>> On 7/12/06, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
>>> Dani
>>>
>>> Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>
>> OK, so dancing for the audience is preferred over dancing with your partner?
>>
>> So I guess it only takes ONE to tango.
>>
>> The stage is reserved for those who dance for the audience. (By the
>> way, good stage dancers have good partner connection technique. Good
>> stage dancers also dance a social style at the milongas.)
>>
>> Those who prefer to dance with our partners would like to have the
>> social dance floor available to us. Sometimes we get in the way of the
>> performers who have descended from the stage onto the social dance
>> floor. Sorry about that.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:08:25 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Social dancers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Tango is divided into different styles:
1- Salon : the one danced socially in dancing halls, clubs, home parties,
private organizations, etc. improvised.
2- Stage; the one danced on stage choreographed or improvised.
Salon has several subdivisions: Open embrace, close embrace. Milonguero
(also called del centro, confiteria, club), Fantasia, Nuevo, Elegante, and
an infinite number of idiosyncratic personal styles.
All the styles danced outside the stage are considered to be social dancing.
Misconception #1 - Fantasia is stage dancing.
Tango fantasia is the one done with all the elements that belong to
Argentine Tango. It is done with amagues, boleos, ganchos, enrosques,
contrenrosques, barridas, calesitas, volcadas, colgadas, little jumps, etc.
Tango fantasia was the norm in social dancing till about 15 years ago when
the dancing floors in Buenos Aires were not crowded as they are today.
In the 70s. and 80s. people went dancing to do all the possible
embellishments, to see what the other dancers were doing, to try to copy new
steps, to do little exhibitions exactly the same as they are done today.
Dancers like Petroleo, Todaro, Virulazo, Lampazo, Nito and many others were
not stage dancers . They were social dancers that went to the local milongas
in the neighborhood to do social dancing.
Stage Dancing was developed by Carlos Copes and others that had the idea of
promoting tango abroad in the form of musical shows. Many tango fantasia
dancers joined those shows at that time.
It was in the 90s. when the dancing floors became crowded that people had to
adjust their style to the lack of space to dance. They had to limit their
vocabulary and the amplitude of the movements.
So foreigners come to B.A. and see a style adapted to the circumstances and
decide that that is the only social dance possible. They get a false idea,
return home where they have plenty of space to dance, and put chairs around
the floor to re-create crowded conditions and dance in a restricted form.
Misconception #2: Most people in B.A. today dance 'Milonguero Style"
(meaning the style taught by Susana Miller and others).
In reality most people dance Salon style in close embrace. They land on
their forefoot, they walk on one line, they do ochos knee leading vs. heel
leading, they use an embrace in "V", they do not dance apilado, etc. all of
them characteristics of salon style.
Misconception#3: Navigation problems are caused by dancers of certain
styles.
In reality navigation problems are caused by poor dancers of "any" style.
Good dancers of any style know how to navigate the floor without disturbing
the other dancers and adapt their dancing to the circumstances.
Summary:
You should dance the style you prefer
Fantasia or salon open or close embrace could be the preferred style by many
dancers all over the world when they have enough room available to dance as
generally is the case in the USA.
You should not limit your dancing to a few moves only because people in
crowded areas dance that way.
The style of tango you choose should take into consideration your age, your
athletic conditioning, the amount of time and dedication you wish to spend,
your natural dancing skills.
So as Argentines say " vivi y deja vivir". Live and let the others live
as well.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:35 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social dancers
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jake a.k.a. "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:
> I'd even say that sometimes classes, practice, and study Are the tango
> in its ideal form: milongas, with their annoying focus on personal
> pleasure, can sometimes seem inferior to them.
If those of that opinion stayed in their classrooms, they'd surely make
both themselves and everyone at the milongas quite a bit happier.
> Pleasing an audience in any performance medium is an act of generosity,
> and it's quite inseparable from pleasing one's partner
I guess then that social tango is not a performance medium. Serving
audience and partner in tango are separable and indeed separated by the
fact one is done by sight not touch, and the other by touch not sight.
> So is the silly idea that pleasing a crowd, or a single bystander, is
> egotistical. It is, rather, the annihilation of ego, the subordination
> of self to an external Purpose, known, often, as entertainment
... and more often still as exhibitionism.
Chris
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 21:02:50 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social dancers
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0607132102w7a9a3648t7bad5b6d2c0efe32@mail.gmail.com>
Sergio,
I would like some clarification on the points you made as these seems to
conflict with earlier reports I've read and photos I've seen.
On 7/13/06, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Misconception #1 - Fantasia is stage dancing.
>
> Tango fantasia is the one done with all the elements that belong to
> Argentine Tango. It is done with amagues, boleos, ganchos, enrosques,
> contrenrosques, barridas, calesitas, volcadas, colgadas, little jumps,
> etc.
>
> Tango fantasia was the norm in social dancing till about 15 years ago when
> the dancing floors in Buenos Aires were not crowded as they are today.
I had always read that during the Golden age the dance floors were quite
crowded and the photos I've seen have shown very tightly packed crowds. This
was also I think true of the big band dances during WWII. The photos and
newsreel footage I've seen show a very tightly packed floor of slow dancers
dancing pretty close also in England for example, though they weren't
dancing tango of course, more like a slow fox trot I guess.
Daniel Trenner also said that in the better milonga's people could be
ejected for doing ganchos which were at that time considered vulgar. And if
that was the case I can understand that viewpoint.
> In the 70s. and 80s. people went dancing to do all the possible
> embellishments, to see what the other dancers were doing, to try to copy
> new
> steps, to do little exhibitions exactly the same as they are done today.
> Dancers like Petroleo, Todaro, Virulazo, Lampazo, Nito and many others
> were
> not stage dancers . They were social dancers that went to the local
> milongas
> in the neighborhood to do social dancing.
Again here I've read that during the military dictatorship that large
gatherings were forbidden and that milongas and clubs were closed. This I
recall from Daniel Trenner.
I'm just a bit confused now about what tango was like in those periods.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Jonathan Thornton
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:32:49 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social dancers
Christopher L. Everett wrote:
> I personally think Jake's post is an unmitigated, reeking crock of manure:
>
Congratulations. Even though I agree with the substance of many of
your arguments, you've resorted to so much flame throwing
as to become the first person on the list to have such a
long mail marked automagically as spam by my Bayesian classifier.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
