5658  Let's save the social dance!

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!

I've been following the debates on Tango-L for a year and a half.
Most dramatic for me, has been the clash between Nuevo and Traditional styles of dance.
The topic becomes even more confused when one observes the similarities
between the two approaches..Nuevo is based on Traditional (so it says) and
most of it's moves have already been seen in Traditional Tango at some time or other (in demos).
The real clash, however, is on the dance floor. I have seen a small dancefloor that easily holds more than a dozen couples during a traditional social dance shrink to only able to
hold 4 couples doing Nuevo...what's it all about?
Well, for my part, I am finally seeing that THE clash is not between Viejo y Nuevo
but rather between Social and Performance dancing..(yes, it's been said here before but I am finally 'getting' it myself, thank you.) Performance tango borrows from the Milonguero tradition and uses it as a point of departure to morph into modern dance , ballet, you name it.
It uses as much of the floor as possible so as to be able to dance in the round, as it were,
and please as much of the surrounding audience as possible.
It is sometimes even called 'Milonguero' when in a demo performance
OK, if we are in agreement on the above...it follows that;
?WHY is Show Tango taught at all???( there are reasons for it besides greed.)
?Why isn't it called Performance Tango?
?How can we help the class-goer distinguish between what is appropriate
when dancing alone or with lot's of floor space and what is suitable for close quarters?
?How can we get the two (Social + Show) under the same roof and co operating with each other?????????
?ALL INPUT GRACIOUSLY LISTENED TO
?

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:45:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!

> From: Mario sopelote@yahoo.com

> > ?How can we get the two (Social + Show) under the same roof and co operating
> with each other?????????
>??>??

We can't and why should we? Social dancing is for sharing the dance floor with
many other couples and improvising figures to suit the space available.

Show Tango is for dancing a performace in front of an audience with, usually,
no other couples on the dance floor.

Social and Show tango, by definition, are not to be danced at the same time.

Show dancers should respect the social dance floor and leave their show
dance routines for the right time and place.

Jack

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:29:50 -0500
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!
<cff24c340906090829s2468c4b8m39e09eab0cd79584@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jack Dylan<jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>> From: Mario sopelote@yahoo.com
>
>> > ?How can we get the two (Social + Show) under the same roof and co operating
>> with each other????????
>>??>
>
> We can't and why should we? Social dancing is for sharing the dance floor with
> many other couples and improvising figures to suit the space available.
>
> Show Tango is for dancing a performace in front of an audience with, usually,
> no other couples on the dance floor.
>
> Social and Show tango, by definition, are not to be danced at the same time.
>
> Show dancers should respect the social dance floor and leave their show
> dance routines for the right time and place.
>
> Jack
>

Jack,

Very well stated. But ... EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

The problem is that performance dances derived from social tango
(e.g., nuevo) are not taught as performance dances. The instructors do
not say 'this is for performance'. Instead classes and workshops are
taught in conjunction with 'milongas'. The silence about
appropriateness leads to performance on the milonga dance floor.

Nuevo dances will argue that large movements that do not necessarily
follow the line of dance are appropriate if there is sufficient space.

Fine. I do not like to dance tango milonguero in a cave. It does not
feel like tango unless there are other couples dancing nearby.

I see a simple solution, but it requires agreement and cooperation
among dancers.

Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances
can be held on large floors where the density is low. Milongas (for
tango de salon / tango milonguero) can be held in smaller venues.
Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the
advertisement of the event.

To further avoid confusion, the terminology in advertising an event
should be consistent. A 'milonga' should be reserved for tango
milonguero or, more broadly tango de salon (the range of variation of
social tango danced in Buenos Aires milongas).

Nuevo dances should develop their own name, but let me suggest one
that was mentoned on another list: NUEVILONGA. This name is not only
accurate, but it is really cool!!

It would also help if instructors stopped called what they teach
'tango' when it is not what is danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires.
Call it 'nuevo'. Just think how cool that sounds. Everyone wants to
dance what is new and current.

Ron

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:37:44 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<ebb7980c0906090837g2eda8921o54b4aa56bf40a2bf@mail.gmail.com>

> Nuevo dances should develop their own name, but let me suggest one
> that was mentoned on another list: NUEVILONGA. This name is not only
> accurate, but it is really cool!!

It has EVIL in it!

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:49:30 -0400
From: Endzone 102 <endzone102@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!
<694bf47d0906090849y445ae11bg3af56df9b60bb73c@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois <
tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:

> I see a simple solution, but it requires agreement and cooperation
> among dancers.
>
> Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances
> can be held on large floors where the density is low. Milongas (for
> tango de salon / tango milonguero) can be held in smaller venues.
> Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the
> advertisement of the event.
>

That's not cooperation. That's segregation. It's just not ever going
to happen. Someone will always be unhappy. Perish the thought that there
might be a break from the traditional tango music every two or three hours.

This particular horse has been beaten to death, raised from the dead,
turned into dog food, eaten, re-purposed into fertilizer, had grass grown in
it, eaten by the next horse in the chain to be beaten to death.

-Greg G

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!



--- On Tue, 6/9/09, Endzone 102 <endzone102@gmail.com> wrote:

>> ? ? This particular horse has been beaten to
> death, raised from the dead,
> turned into dog food, eaten, re-purposed into fertilizer,
> had grass grown in
> it, eaten by the next horse in the chain to be beaten to
> death.
>
> -Greg G

Unfortunately, Greg, some people will never learn or refuse to. It's sorta' like those students in a class who refuse to do it the teacher's way because...well...I don't know why. Guess they're just not willing to learn. So teachers just shake their head and say to themselves, what a shame, oh well, better just spend time with those who are willing to learn.

And, as had been said ad infinitum, it's not stage tango people are doing. Sometimes it's just bad tango, which can be both open and close embrace. I've rarely seen true stage tango done at a milonga. It's mostly just bad tango.

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:36:33 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!


You'd like to save the social dance? Go look at what that is. Not
segregated. 1920s, 30s the big social dance era had all types of dancing at
social events. It's time to stop the compartmentalization and segregation
society seems to be heading towards. Totally xenophobic! Whatever happened
to a renaissance style mindset? Ack we're dying because of the ultra
specialization era we're living in.

_A

> From: Endzone 102 <endzone102@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:49:30 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Tango Society of Central Illinois <
> tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I see a simple solution, but it requires agreement and cooperation
>> among dancers.
>>
>> Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances
>> can be held on large floors where the density is low. Milongas (for
>> tango de salon / tango milonguero) can be held in smaller venues.
>> Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the
>> advertisement of the event.
>>
>
> That's not cooperation. That's segregation. It's just not ever going
> to happen. Someone will always be unhappy. Perish the thought that there
> might be a break from the traditional tango music every two or three hours.
>
> This particular horse has been beaten to death, raised from the dead,
> turned into dog food, eaten, re-purposed into fertilizer, had grass grown in
> it, eaten by the next horse in the chain to be beaten to death.
>
> -Greg G

Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:13:56 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!

Someone wrote:

>
> Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate.
> ...

And someone else wrote:

>
> It's just not ever going
> to happen.

You might think its "not ever going to happen", but in fact it
happens a lot, and pretty successfully. Particular milongas get a
reputation for having plenty of space for big dancing, or for having
a good flow of close couples dancing together. Sometimes for having
each, at different times of the night.

This can be affected by the milonga organiser's choice of venue, and
of course the music.

Yes, someone will always be unhappy. Its up to each organiser to
decide what kind of event to run -- ie who to make happy, and who to
worry less about. Alternative milongas don't worry much about people
who really don't like to dance tango to alternative music;
traditional milongas don't worry much about people who need lots of
space or don't want to dance to traditional tango all night; some
target people who are happy with a bit of everything, and leave those
who only like one or the other unhappy.

Both separation and integration provide choices. If you enjoy going
to events where both big and small tango co-exist on the floor, then
go to them, but don't be distressed if people who only like one or
the other don't come. But if you prefer one or the other, then choose
events that do that, and don't be distressed if people who want both
don't come.

As a dancer and as an organiser, I choose separation because that's
what I enjoy and value. Clearly, mileage varies.

GB

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:54:02 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:

> Very well stated. But ... EASIER SAID THAN DONE.
>
> The problem is that performance dances derived from social tango
> (e.g., nuevo) are not taught as performance dances. The instructors do
> not say 'this is for performance'. Instead classes and workshops are
> taught in conjunction with 'milongas'. The silence about
> appropriateness leads to performance on the milonga dance floor.

That's not the cause of the problem. I know followers who can do boleos
without ever lifting their foot and moving it only a couple of inches
outward, and I can dance some "performance" figures in very little room
(and others I can't).

A lot I also have to modify so as to not disturb the line of
dance (the frequent problem I can see with people doing some
"figures" is that they seem to want to initiate them in the
exact orientation they were taught, without regard for where
they'll end up. They also seem to be unable to break them up
into smaller parts that can be assembled at will depending
on circumstances.)

All it requires is the right attitude (respect for the space of others
on the dance floor and the ronda), not a different catalogue of
steps.

> Nuevo and tango de salon events should be kept separate. Nuevo dances
> can be held on large floors where the density is low.

There's no need to pigeon-hole anything if you're sensible. A given
floor doesn't have the same density at 10pm and 3am as it has at 1am.
Even a given tanda attracts a different public and causes a different
floor density.

> Dancers should respect the type of dancing that is suggested by the
> advertisement of the event.
>

Mhhh - what next? Separate dance events for people who step on the ball
of their feet and people who step heel first?

I don't like those rigid pigeon holes one little bit. Tango is a subculture
that's small enough as is, and I do think that cross-fertilisation
between different styles is interesting. We can all learn a lot from others
in this dance, and I don't necessarily want everyone at a milonga to behave
like I do (I don't need the comfort of feeling I'm doing "just like
the others" which makes me "right" as defined by my "peers").

People who don't respect the space of others should be whacked - and that
even applies to me when I'm out of line (it does happen - sometimes the music
and a particularly GOOD connection with a dance partner makes you
enter a trance that's not good for your awareness of others).

And people should be taught to adapt to circumstances. But it can't
really be taught in classes. That's something you can only learn by walking
your kilometres in milongas.

Approach milongas with an open mind and enough humility, and in the end
you'll be fine - after having learned from your mistakes. Usually, if you're
gracious about your gaffes people will tolerate them (to a point - not if
you continue to be blatantly ignoring what you do unto others).

And then once you'll be more experienced you'll bump into people who've
had less experience with a dance floor and be irritated by them. Then is the
time to remember how pathetic your floor navigation skills
were when *you* started and to be lenient.

All of that has little to do with style. I know close-embrace dancers who can
be just as rude as open-frame dancers at milongas. Especially when they're
so convinced they're the ones doing "real" social tango that it gives them
a huge sense of entitlement.

Awareness. That's what counts. And yes, teachers *should* make their pupils
aware of things and what counts on a social dance floor.

One gripe I have (and that happens indeed more often with teachers teaching
a style closer to "performance") is they sometimes teach patterns that change
your final orientation without making people *aware* that you have to bolt
on something at the beginning or the end or adjust the leading or trailing
steps to "get back" in the ronda - I don't have a crusade against back steps,
but if you want to make them of normal length try to turn 135? first against
the line of dance so that they become forward steps - and be sure there's room...

But their pupils *will* still have to walk to walk to really understand,
no matter how much they're told.

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:15:29 EDT
From: HBBOOGIE1@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Let's save the social dance!
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:29:05 +0930
From: "roger" <roger@websa.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] Let's save the social dance!

I almost agree with you Jack, however it depends on the space available.

I was at La Marshall in Buenos Aries, when a couple of their better dancer
got on the floor ahead of everyone else and gave a rather dramatic
performance. However as the floor became more crowed they toned down their
dancing. Thus respecting the other dancers.

I have a weakness for dramatic endings, but will tone these down if the
floor is crowed.

So I am saying that, yes, you can do a performance type of dance, but only
if the space allows. A crowed floor does not permit dramatic gestures, here
we agree. Respect the other dancers. Bumping into someone, somehow, shows
your lack of dancing ability.

Roger Spence

?
We can't and why should we? Social dancing is for sharing the dance floor
with many other couples and improvising figures to suit the space available.


Show Tango is for dancing a performance in front of an audience with,
usually, no other couples on the dance floor.

Social and Show tango, by definition, are not to be danced at the same time.

Show dancers should respect the social dance floor and leave their show
dance routines for the right time and place.

Jack