1944  Lunfardo (was Castilian)

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:37:48 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

La unica manera de salir de esta mistonga que nos
descangaya a los latinoamericanos, che -observo uno de
los delegados argentinos en la reunion inicial-, es
amurando a los bacanes que nos han afanao durante
tanto tiempo. No importa que no tengamos plata o
menega. Bien podemos chamuyar entre nosotros y
cambalachear pilchas por tamangos. ?Que mas nos
da morfar fainas al principio, hasta que nos hagamos
cancheros y nos empiece a piantar la guita? Todo es
cuestion de afanar el canyengue, che.

Kate says:

"For some reason, the accent marks in the Marco Aurelio
Almazan article came out all wrong. I'm sorry, though
I think it's still easy enough to read. (Hope so!)
Kate"

I removed the errors caused by the use of accents from the paragraph sent by
Kate as an example of use of Lunfardo.

To take the above paragraph seriously(imo) is totally absurd.

Marco Aurelio Almazan, says that during a business meeting between
Argentineans and Mexicans the above conversation took place.

I can assure you that an expression in those terms (seriously speaking)
never took place . It has to be a fabrication of the Mexican author with an
innocent amusing purpose... ? or used by both parties as a joke. I grew up
and went to school in Argentina.
I had to interact with immigrants from all over (many from Bolivia, Peru,
Chile, Uruguay, Colombia, Spain, etc)
When I was in the University about 20% of the students there were from Latin
American countries, some of them had become instructors and professors. We
never heard too many unintelligible words. They used "tu" instead of "vos"
that was all.

I have been to Mexico, to Puerto Rico and to Spain at least 15 times (each
country), I never heard any unintelligible terms, if an unusual word was
used it was immediately translated into the usual Castilian word.

I remember one dark night in a solitary street in Malaga (Spain) I met two
friendly guys that after a while started to speak "Calo" an argot that is
typical of gypsies. I could not understand a world and assumed that they
were plotting the best way to empty my pockets.
Nothing of the such occurred we ended in a place dancing with gypsy ladies
and drinking wine. :))

I am unable to understand the TV program from England "The Eastenders".

As far as I know nobody uses lunfardo exclusively to communicate, some
people use some isolated words here and there, nothing more.
The same as some people use slang in the USA.

Ex. Me voy a laburar. Laburar = Trabajar
Conoci una mina que esta un kilo = I got acquainted with a girl that
is very good looking.

The Mexicans speak a very polite and proper form of Castilian.

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:15:20 -0500
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

Since the admirable Dr. Who has banned me from sending any of my
comments directly to him, I am sending these to the list.

Sergio wrote:

>La unica manera de salir de esta mistonga que nos
>descangaya a los latinoamericanos, che -observo uno de
>los delegados argentinos en la reunion inicial-, es
>amurando a los bacanes que nos han afanao durante
>tanto tiempo. No importa que no tengamos plata o
>menega. Bien podemos chamuyar entre nosotros y
>cambalachear pilchas por tamangos. ?Que mas nos
>da morfar fainas al principio, hasta que nos hagamos
>cancheros y nos empiece a piantar la guita? Todo es
>cuestion de afanar el canyengue, che.
>
>Kate says:
>
>"For some reason, the accent marks in the Marco Aurelio
>Almazan article came out all wrong. I'm sorry, though
>I think it's still easy enough to read. (Hope so!)
>Kate"
>
>I removed the errors caused by the use of accents from the paragraph sent by
>Kate as an example of use of Lunfardo.
>
>To take the above paragraph seriously(imo) is totally absurd.
>

It stands to reason that the paragraph may be but a synopsis of what may
have taken place. But it is not at all absurd in illustrating the
possible confusion.

>Marco Aurelio Almazan, says that during a business meeting between
>Argentineans and Mexicans the above conversation took place.
>
>I can assure you that an expression in those terms (seriously speaking)
>never took place .
>

Really? Please, don't take it personally, but this is like the waste of
time in trying to explain sarcasm to the dim witted.

>It has to be a fabrication of the Mexican author with an
>innocent amusing purpose... ? or used by both parties as a joke. I grew up
>and went to school in Argentina.
>I had to interact with immigrants from all over (many from Bolivia, Peru,
>Chile, Uruguay, Colombia, Spain, etc)
>When I was in the University about 20% of the students there were from Latin
>American countries, some of them had become instructors and professors.
>

Hmm, was the rest or 80% from outside Argentina? Or are you saying that
Argentina is not a Latin American country. I ask the question because I
also see (specially in your attempts to write in English) you insist on
referring to Spanish as Castilian. I do not know if you do it out of
habit or as another affectation.

>We
>never heard too many unintelligible words. They used "tu" instead of "vos"
>that was all.
>
>I have been to Mexico, to Puerto Rico and to Spain at least 15 times (each
>country), I never heard any unintelligible terms, if an unusual word was
>used it was immediately translated into the usual Castilian word.
>
>I remember one dark night in a solitary street in Malaga (Spain) I met two
>friendly guys that after a while started to speak "Calo" an argot that is
>typical of gypsies. I could not understand a world [word] and assumed that they
>were plotting the best way to empty my pockets.
>

Just in case you, or someone else, can appreciate constructive criticism
being that this is in the context of understanding languages. You may
consider using either "Nothing of the sort...", or "No such thing..."
occurred, etc. But "Nothing of the such.." can only elicit a snicker
from any native English speaker, as the mixing of idiomatic expressions
is a sure sign of a foreigner.

>Nothing of the such occurred we ended in a place dancing with gypsy ladies
>and drinking wine. :))
>
> I am unable to understand the TV program from England "The Eastenders".
>

This is understandable, as you, obviously, travel in different circles.

>As far as I know nobody uses lunfardo exclusively to communicate, some
>people use some isolated words here and there, nothing more.
>The same as some people use slang in the USA.
>
>Ex. Me voy a laburar. Laburar = Trabajar
> Conoci una mina que esta un kilo = I got acquainted with a girl that
>is very good looking.
>
>The Mexicans speak a very polite and proper form of Castilian.
>

Some may not even know it since they speak mostly Spanish. But I jest.

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:25:32 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

Dirk produced another one of his intelligent notes and said:

"Since the admirable Dr. Who has banned me from sending any of my
comments directly to him, I am sending these to the list."

Dirk please do all of us a favor and stop writing your stupid notes.

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:48:39 -0800
From: John Taylor <gancho2004@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

>"It stands to reason that the paragraph may be but a synopsis of what

may
have taken place. But it is not at all absurd in illustrating the
possible confusion."

Dirk, it seems to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about.

>"Really? Please, don't take it personally, but this is like the waste of

time in trying to explain sarcasm to the dim witted."

Dirk, It seems to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about.

">The Mexicans speak a very polite and proper form of Castilian.

>

>"Some may not even know it since they speak mostly Spanish. But I jest."

Dirk it seems to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about.

Castilian and Spanish are the same. You should at least know this by now.

If you do not have anything to contribute to the list it is better to remain silent.

I can understand now why the Dr. is not receiving your mails anymore.
Do not bother writing to me either.










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Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:43:18 -0800
From: Catrina Imports <catrinaimports@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

The article I sent to the list is obviously fiction,
meant to be a humorous way to show the difference
between speaking the same language and speaking the
same slang or the same dialect.

In LatAm and Spain, almost all well-educated and
cultured people speak what we might call "standard
Spanish" w/ some regional variations. Most also handle
w/ ease the local slang and/or dialect. People w/ less
education tend to be unable to use a more "neutral" or
"standard" language w/ any consistency; they speak
using lots of slang and nonstandard constructions.
(This holds true in English and most other languages
as well.)

To say the Mexicans speak "a very polite and proper
form of Castilian" is a gross overgeneralization at
best. Some Mexicans whose first language is an
indigenous one don't speak Spanish or speak it very
poorly. Many others are native speakers of Spanish,
but they certainly don't speak anything that could be
called "proper" Spanish. Every language has it's share
of people whose use of the language is far from polite
or proper... and that happens even in Argentina.

Kate





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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:22:01 -0500
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

John Taylor wrote:

>>"It stands to reason that the paragraph may be but a synopsis of what
>>
>>
>may
>have taken place. But it is not at all absurd in illustrating the
>possible confusion."
>
> Dirk, it seems to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about.
>

Except, that the writer of the original paragraph happens to state:

"The article I sent to the list is obviously fiction,
meant to be a humorous way to show the difference
between speaking the same language and speaking the
same slang or the same dialect."

>>"Some may not even know it since they speak mostly Spanish. But I jest."
>>
>>
>
>Dirk it seems to me that you have no idea of what you are talking about.
>
>Castilian and Spanish are the same. You should at least know this by now.
>

I know they are the same. If you read my comments correctly, that is
the very reason I refer to the continued insistence by your "Dr Who",
the pompous Sergio with no last name, as an affectation.

Clear enough?

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 00:43:33 -0500
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Lunfardo (was Castilian)

Catrina Imports wrote:

>To say the Mexicans speak "a very polite and proper
>form of Castilian" is a gross overgeneralization at
>best. Some Mexicans whose first language is an
>indigenous one don't speak Spanish or speak it very
>poorly. Many others are native speakers of Spanish,
>but they certainly don't speak anything that could be
>called "proper" Spanish. Every language has it's share
>of people whose use of the language is far from polite
>or proper... and that happens even in Argentina.
>

Considering the number of times that Sergio does it, it is fairly
obvious that he needs to remind others in this list of his travels, and
upper class "only" contacts. Otherwise, his simplistic
overgeneralizations might mean that these "other" people do not count.

Dirk