5155 Masters of tango as a social dance
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 01:54:51 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Masters of tango as a social dance
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:16:53 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@pobox.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] (fwd) Masters of tango as a social dance
To: tango-L@mit.edu
On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 01:54:51 -0300, "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
wrote:
>Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 01:50:33 EDT
>From: Mrizik@aol.com
>Subject: [Tango-A] World-renowned maestros in Eugene, Oregon
>
>WORLD-RENOWNED MAESTROS, PERFORMERS & CHOREOGRAPHERS
>MARIA & CARLOS RIVAROLA
>On their world tour In Eugene, Oregon
>SEPTEMBER 26 - OCTOBER 3, 2007
>All in one package:
>1. Masters of tango as a social dance.
>2. Information and teaching from maestros of maestros.
>3. Indisputable experience: more than 60 years combined
>between the two of them.
>4. History: Cast members of Tango Argentino, the show
>that brought tango dancing to the international community.
>5. Choreographers & Dancers of the movie Tango, by Carlos Saura
>(Academy nominee) Naked Tango, and Tango Bar>>>
>
>
>Here we go again. More big hype to get people to sign up with the stars of
>tango.
>
>Yes, they were members of Tango Argentino in New York City in 1986, along
>with Gloria and Eduardo Arquimbau, Hector Mayoral and Elsa Maria, Juan
>Carlos Copes and Maria Nieves, Elvira and Virulazo, Nelida and Nelson Avila,
>Rodolfo and Gloria Dinzel. Each danced their own choreographies in the
>show.
>
>Yes, they teach classes at Escuela Argentina de Tango at Centro Cultural
>Borges.
>
>Yes, they were choreographers and dancers in Tango by Saura.
>
>But masters of tango as a social dance? They never dance in the milongas.
>They are ex-stage performers who teach. They have been on the judging panel
>of the campeonatos. They dance exhibitions.
>
>A friend of mine had a private lesson with Carlos Rivarola about six years
>ago. She paid him $100 for the hour. I asked her what she got for the
>money. She couldn't tell me. I asked her why she would study with someone
>who never dances in the milongas. I thought she wanted to improve her
>social dancing.
>
>Sixty years experience in what? Ricardo Suarez has danced 65 continuous
>years in the milongas.
>
>If you are interested in becoming a better social dancer, I suggest you
>find other teachers. They have no experience in the milongas of Buenos
>Aires. They have name recognition for being in a show that toured the
>world.
>
Gee whiz Janis, I must be a lucky fellow. The last time I was in Buenos Aires I
ran into Carlos & Maria at Sunderland on two different occasions. Maybe they
just don't go to the same milongas that you do. If you want to plug Ricardo
Suarez you can do that in a positive way and I'm sure that folks on the list
would like to hear about him. Why attempt to smear the Rivarolas in the process?
Ed Loomis
Sacramento, California
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 03:45:32 -0500
From: "el turco" <shusheta@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Masters of tango as a social dance
To: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<3eeb80e0709050145m8dd9f83gef8190dbff0f8936@mail.gmail.com>
As a pedagogist, after Janis' 2nd post, i have decided to write this post in
detail.
Janis said "Sixty years experience in what? Ricardo Suarez has danced 65
continuous years in the milongas."
Although i respect milongueros as part of the Tango culture, i analyzed that
dancing in milongas everyday over 40 years or whatever this does not
guarantee refine Tango Pedagogy skills.
No milonguero have taken classes or specialty workshops in their life. No
doubt Tango life was different those days, building skills in teaching dance
requires much more than just dancing. We know that in Tango unlike Flamenco,
mentorship wasn't popular among milongueros those days.
Of course each milonguero might have developed invaluable elements, but most
of them had no clue or tools how to transfer their experiences or knowledge
to someone from next generation. Also, "I show, You do it" is not a very
efficient pedagogic tool unfortunately. Most of them are just tango dancers
who were dancing every night for fun, meeting new people, developing the
"brotherhood", and being part of the social circle like these days'
"clubbers".
We live in 21st century, even in BsAs Tango scene continue to change, there
are more people dancing Tango outside Buones Aires. The popularity of Tango
continue to decline in other Argentine provinces, and thousands of
non-argentines start teaching Tango all over the world. The Sentimentalists
don't like this picture but Tango is NOT a folk dance of Argentina, Tango
does not have a country, it's immigrant itself. It's a socio-cultural
phenomenon along with it's music, and dance subforms.
Since it's a living culture, Tango music industry is also changing.
According to the records, In 1946, there were 650 registered Tango
orchestras in Buenos Aires, now everyone plays recorded music, killing the
tango music industry right at home of Tango.
Tango is Art form, requires expertise, systematic information flow.
Tango Pedagogy & Sustainability in Tango Communities:
As many of you can see that European Tango scene is much more healthy than
here in US not only because of 15 year- cultural gap between two continents
but also the difference in understanding of Tango Education between US and
Europe. There is no tango school concept developed in US yet, couples or
individual teachers teach by themselves rather than getting together and
combine their skills.
We need to keep looking for efficient ways to transfer our experiences,
knowledge to our students, We live in Information age, It's up to us
(dancers, teachers, organizers, community leaders and any tango aficionados)
to support Argentine Tango Culture in our home towns.
Some might get angry but, I strongly believe that the journey Argentine
Tango has begun in Buenos Aires however, it's future depends on outside
Buenos Aires.
Bests,
Burak Ozkosem
Chicago
tangoeclectique.com
On 9/4/07, Janis Kenyon <Jantango@feedback.net.ar> wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 01:50:33 EDT
> From: Mrizik@aol.com
> Subject: [Tango-A] World-renowned maestros in Eugene, Oregon
>
> WORLD-RENOWNED MAESTROS, PERFORMERS & CHOREOGRAPHERS
> MARIA & CARLOS RIVAROLA
> On their world tour In Eugene, Oregon
> SEPTEMBER 26 - OCTOBER 3, 2007
> All in one package:
> 1. Masters of tango as a social dance.
> 2. Information and teaching from maestros of maestros.
> 3. Indisputable experience: more than 60 years combined
> between the two of them.
> 4. History: Cast members of Tango Argentino, the show
> that brought tango dancing to the international community.
> 5. Choreographers & Dancers of the movie Tango, by Carlos Saura
> (Academy nominee) Naked Tango, and Tango Bar>>>
>
>
> Here we go again. More big hype to get people to sign up with the stars
> of
> tango.
>
> Yes, they were members of Tango Argentino in New York City in 1986, along
> with Gloria and Eduardo Arquimbau, Hector Mayoral and Elsa Maria, Juan
> Carlos Copes and Maria Nieves, Elvira and Virulazo, Nelida and Nelson
> Avila,
> Rodolfo and Gloria Dinzel. Each danced their own choreographies in the
> show.
>
> Yes, they teach classes at Escuela Argentina de Tango at Centro Cultural
> Borges.
>
> Yes, they were choreographers and dancers in Tango by Saura.
>
> But masters of tango as a social dance? They never dance in the milongas.
> They are ex-stage performers who teach. They have been on the judging
> panel
> of the campeonatos. They dance exhibitions.
>
> A friend of mine had a private lesson with Carlos Rivarola about six years
> ago. She paid him $100 for the hour. I asked her what she got for the
> money. She couldn't tell me. I asked her why she would study with
> someone
> who never dances in the milongas. I thought she wanted to improve her
> social dancing.
>
> Sixty years experience in what? Ricardo Suarez has danced 65 continuous
> years in the milongas.
>
> If you are interested in becoming a better social dancer, I suggest you
> find other teachers. They have no experience in the milongas of Buenos
> Aires. They have name recognition for being in a show that toured the
> world.
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:24:08 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Masters of tango as a social dance
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Burak has something of a point WRT to the "I show, you do" style of
teaching. However, if you come to an "I show, you do" class with strong
fundamentals there is no problem. If you don't have strong
fundamentals, then your weaknesses as a dancer will be on full display
to the knowing eye. Either way you will get something out of it.
Regarding the tango music industry, there's a reason why recorded music
dominates. It works for dancing in ways that modern tango groups either
can't (no skills) or won't (playing for themselves, not dancers)
reproduce. I'll go so far as to say that much music being marketed as
tango music is either club music or classical music with banoneon, So,
we are indeed supporting the modern tango music industry: we don't buy
it if we can't tango to it, so these bands should get their stuff
together and produce music dancers like tangoing to. Doesn't sound
sentimental to me.
Finally, we have lots of tango schools in the US. Metin Yazir's chain,
and several places in NYC where many tango teachers on as friendly basis
with each other work. The real problem with formal systems of teaching
is that they tend to emphasize a non-existent One True Tango over the
tango appropriate to the student. The cottage industry model of tango
instruction at least allows a wider diversity of styles than if each
city was dominated by a few big schools.
Christopher
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:24:33 -0400
From: "Ronda Patino" <rondap@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Masters of tango as a social dance
To: "'el turco'" <shusheta@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
"Tango does not have a country, it's an immigrant itself."
What a marvelous sentence from Burak Ozkosem! (I added "an"). Of course
tango has a birthplace, origin and history, but I think this is a wonderful
concept.
Ronda in Atlanta www.tango-rio.com
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:45:48 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Masters of tango as a social dance
To: Janis Kenyon <jantango@feedback.net.ar>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
>
> Sixty years experience in what? Ricardo Suarez has danced 65 continuous
> years in the milongas.
>
> If you are interested in becoming a better social dancer, I suggest you
> find other teachers. They have no experience in the milongas of Buenos
> Aires. They have name recognition for being in a show that toured the
> world.
Janis,
The length of time that someone has spent dancing in the milongas does not indicate anything more than how long he or she has been going to milongas. I realize that 65 years is a lot longer than say, 15 years. Still, I've seen dancers who've been dancing regularly at milongas for 15 years and they are far from a paragon of dance ability.... Also, I don't understand why you seem to have a bias against professional dancers. I don't know about you or others, but it's generally accepted that there are degrees of competence and talent in all manner of endeavors. Sports, professions, art (music, paint, sculpture, writing, etc.) have practitioners in all levels of proficiency. I don't think you'd disagree with the rankings of tennis players, chess masters, pokers players or what have you. Also, there are widely recognized rankings of writers, poets, singers, painters, photographers, and yes, even dancers!! It might be hard to swallow, but the most accomplished dancers easily excel !
in their art. It's obvious to all but the most closed minded and prejudiced who is a master of their art just by watching their performance.
In my opinion, I would like to learn an art from the best teacher/practitioner. Forget the excuse about all being for one's partner, the inner self, the passion, feelings, etc. The same thing holds true for such activities as skiing, kayaking, skating, pottery making, etc. For any of these things I would like to learn from the best and I would try to develop my own artistic style from the best I can emulate. I certainly would not just assume that the oldest living skier, writer or potter is necessarily the best one out there. Another flaw in your reasoning appears to be the idea that only someone who does nothing but go to milongas for years is a good dancer or teacher. I do not mean to say that Ricardo Suarez is not a good dancer or teacher. I don't know him and he might well be as you say. However. this idea that talent and expertise come from going to milongas for years, could not be further from the truth. Look, there are guys and women all over the world who have been g!
oing dancing for years and years. Likewise, there are golfers, tennis players, singers, musicians, writers, etc. Who have been doing it for years and years but are barely mediocre at their art. Contrary wise, there are many examples of the opposite. There are many young people who take up an art, sport or other activity and quickly become incredibly skilled and talented at it.
While your milongueros might well be excellent dancers and have a lot to teach and share with others, it does not mean that other, younger dancers are no good... Furthermore, the best professional dancers are quite good enough to dance at any milonga in the world. It's absurd to say that an expert, professional, talented tango dancer cannot dance socially. It's like saying that a professional plumber cannot flush a house toilet..... Please try to be more rational and logical in your posts. You are doing no good to your favorite milongueros by coming across as an illogical prejudiced person with a huge ax to grind.
Sincerely,
Manuel
