Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus


5384 Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:23:43 -0800 (PST) From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: tango-L@mit.edu MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS === Here's something that I got from the book: Men are from Mars: When discussing something, men want to state the answer. Women are from Venus: Women discuss to discuss. The answer isn't as important as the exchange of information. (It's been a while since I've read the book. I know I could have stated this better.) === Here is how I see it playing out in life: The man has the answer (so he thinks) and forces it on the woman. Because the man has the answer, he is forcing the conversation toward a monologue. The woman is barraged with this everyday. === Let's apply it to tango: Plenty of men know they are doing the step correctly, therefore they believe that the woman should accept it and just follow, damn it! Plenty of men know they are right and are awfully busy telling the women that they are wrong. These men turn the dance into a monologue. Women would sure love a beautiful conversation. === Here is how I see it applying to these posts: The women have stated, very clearly, that they don't appreciate being thought of in certain ways. The men are right and must make the women see this. === Putting it all together Men, if you will stop having to be right, this thread will cease to the delight of many! Try this on: You don't have to understand Venus. It's okay. Take a vow of silence on this topic for a week. At the end of that week, be okay with that silence! Thank you, in advance, for not responding to this post. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:45:04 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: <tango-L@mit.edu> Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 dialogue. So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass :-) instead of trying to play the too clever violin. This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some additions from the follower. Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, playing violin), it becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am tired of this pseudo-tango. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS > > === Here's something that I got from the book: > > Men are from Mars: When discussing something, men want to state the > answer. > > Women are from Venus: Women discuss to discuss. The answer isn't as > important as the exchange of information. (It's been a while since I've > read the book. I know I could have stated this better.) > > === Here is how I see it playing out in life: > > The man has the answer (so he thinks) and forces it on the woman. > > Because the man has the answer, he is forcing the conversation toward a > monologue. > > The woman is barraged with this everyday. > > === Let's apply it to tango: > > Plenty of men know they are doing the step correctly, therefore they > believe that the woman should accept it and just follow, damn it! > > Plenty of men know they are right and are awfully busy telling the > women that they are wrong. > > These men turn the dance into a monologue. > > Women would sure love a beautiful conversation. > > === Here is how I see it applying to these posts: > > The women have stated, very clearly, that they don't appreciate being > thought of in certain ways. > > The men are right and must make the women see this. > > === Putting it all together > > Men, if you will stop having to be right, this thread will cease to the > delight of many! > > Try this on: You don't have to understand Venus. It's okay. Take a vow > of silence on this topic for a week. At the end of that week, be okay > with that silence! > > Thank you, in advance, for not responding to this post. > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:03:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, Tango-L Krasimir, I'm not sure where you're from, but the reason you don't see the 50/50 dialogue might be because the women in your area aren't encouraged to reach that point. It's very difficult for a woman to reach that point of feeling and being an equal partner in the dance, both technically and psychologically. I have lost count of the number of women who have described an exchange with a man with me and have asked if he was being condenscending. The answer is usually yes. Understand this - they are actually asking me whether condenscending behavior is okay or not! They are looking for guidance in what they should already know is not good behavior. The amazing part is that unless I confirm what they already know, they will accept this behavior as normal! I know this because of certain dynamics that have occurred in my community. So if you'd like to see a more 50/50 dialogue, do what you can to encourage the women to become equal partners. You'll enjoy the results. Trini de Pittsburgh --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 > dialogue. > > So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass > :-) instead of trying > to play the too clever violin. > > This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some > additions from the > follower. > > Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, > playing violin), it > becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am > tired of this > pseudo-tango. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com> > To: <tango-L@mit.edu> > Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM > Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from > Venus > > > > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS > > > > === Here's something that I got from the book: > > > > Men are from Mars: When discussing something, men want > to state the > > answer. > > > > Women are from Venus: Women discuss to discuss. The > answer isn't as > > important as the exchange of information. (It's been a > while since I've > > read the book. I know I could have stated this > better.) > > > > === Here is how I see it playing out in life: > > > > The man has the answer (so he thinks) and forces it on > the woman. > > > > Because the man has the answer, he is forcing the > conversation toward a > > monologue. > > > > The woman is barraged with this everyday. > > > > === Let's apply it to tango: > > > > Plenty of men know they are doing the step > correctly, therefore they > > believe that the woman should accept it and just > follow, damn it! > > > > Plenty of men know they are right and are awfully > busy telling the > > women that they are wrong. > > > > These men turn the dance into a monologue. > > > > Women would sure love a beautiful conversation. > > > > === Here is how I see it applying to these posts: > > > > The women have stated, very clearly, that they don't > appreciate being > > thought of in certain ways. > > > > The men are right and must make the women see this. > > > > === Putting it all together > > > > Men, if you will stop having to be right, this thread > will cease to the > > delight of many! > > > > Try this on: You don't have to understand Venus. It's > okay. Take a vow > > of silence on this topic for a week. At the end of > that week, be okay > > with that silence! > > > > Thank you, in advance, for not responding to this > post. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 03:07:23 +0900 From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu> duh. where is our moderator when we need him? > This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some additions from > the > follower. > Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:33:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 dialogue. ... This dance is a monologue, like it or not, adorned by some additions from the follower. ... Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, playing violin), it becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am tired of this pseudo-tango. --- Sean here, As many people have already pointed out, violins and brushes are merely tools. Without someone to wield them, they are utterly useless. (Except for maybe releasing a few potential BTUs on a desperately cold winter night.) What has not been pointed out is that at best, a perfectly crafted tool will not hinder the user in reaching his potential. But no tool is perfect, so the tool always limits the user. A woman, on the other hand, does not need a man to dance. And rather than limit the man's potential the way a tool must, a woman may collaborate with a man to create a dance that is better than either can achieve by themselves. This synergy is my reason to dance. If you consider yourself an advanced dancer, but have not yet experienced a dance with a partner that is propelled way beyond either partner's potential, then I feel very sorry for you. I think you have not yet experienced tango. And as long as you believe tango is about "telling a story, (painting canvas, playing violin)", then I don't think you will ever experience the best aspect of tango. Loose your ego, or loose the dance. >>From time to time, I have complained that some women do not contribute to the dance. My complaints are really about the lack of synergy when dancing with these women. In some cases, it may just be "bad chemistry", or more likely, a lack of trust. But for the most part, I think that these women have abdicated their role in the dance, in order to not offend the men who would use them like tools. So these men, with their pathetic little egos, are part of the problem. But nobody may be used against his (her) will. If certain women choose to diminish themselves to receive more monologues, then I will find others who prefer to dance. I cannot blame the men for taking advantage of women who allow themselves to be used. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:22:34 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: <tango-L@mit.edu> And "the freedom of speach" is? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > duh. where is our moderator when we need him? > >> This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some additions from >> the >> follower. >> > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:32:22 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus No important is where I am from. Look all the good performances on youtube. Do you see a single one, where the leader does not DETERMINE the step? I have yet to see any, good or even bad, performance where both are equal 50% leaders. People, this is an art form. It is not politics, and please, stop fighting for equality, it is irrelevant here. I personally like to follow very much. But when I follow, I FOLLOW. I don't want to speak, I listen. I am the listening part of the monologue, and there is much pleasure in it. But you with your prejudices may never feel it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > Krasimir, > > I'm not sure where you're from, but the reason you don't > see the 50/50 dialogue might be because the women in your > area aren't encouraged to reach that point. > > It's very difficult for a woman to reach that point of > feeling and being an equal partner in the dance, both > technically and psychologically. > > I have lost count of the number of women who have described > an exchange with a man with me and have asked if he was > being condenscending. The answer is usually yes. > > Understand this - they are actually asking me whether > condenscending behavior is okay or not! They are looking > for guidance in what they should already know is not good > behavior. The amazing part is that unless I confirm what > they already know, they will accept this behavior as > normal! I know this because of certain dynamics that have > occurred in my community. > > So if you'd like to see a more 50/50 dialogue, do what you > can to encourage the women to become equal partners. > You'll enjoy the results. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > >> Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 >> dialogue. >> >> So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass >> :-) instead of trying >> to play the too clever violin. >> >> This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some >> additions from the >> follower. >> >> Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, >> playing violin), it >> becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am >> tired of this >> pseudo-tango. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com> >> To: <tango-L@mit.edu> >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM >> Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from >> Venus >> >> >> > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS >> > >> > === Here's something that I got from the book: >> > >> > Men are from Mars: When discussing something, men want >> to state the >> > answer. >> > >> > Women are from Venus: Women discuss to discuss. The >> answer isn't as >> > important as the exchange of information. (It's been a >> while since I've >> > read the book. I know I could have stated this >> better.) >> > >> > === Here is how I see it playing out in life: >> > >> > The man has the answer (so he thinks) and forces it on >> the woman. >> > >> > Because the man has the answer, he is forcing the >> conversation toward a >> > monologue. >> > >> > The woman is barraged with this everyday. >> > >> > === Let's apply it to tango: >> > >> > Plenty of men know they are doing the step >> correctly, therefore they >> > believe that the woman should accept it and just >> follow, damn it! >> > >> > Plenty of men know they are right and are awfully >> busy telling the >> > women that they are wrong. >> > >> > These men turn the dance into a monologue. >> > >> > Women would sure love a beautiful conversation. >> > >> > === Here is how I see it applying to these posts: >> > >> > The women have stated, very clearly, that they don't >> appreciate being >> > thought of in certain ways. >> > >> > The men are right and must make the women see this. >> > >> > === Putting it all together >> > >> > Men, if you will stop having to be right, this thread >> will cease to the >> > delight of many! >> > >> > Try this on: You don't have to understand Venus. It's >> okay. Take a vow >> > of silence on this topic for a week. At the end of >> that week, be okay >> > with that silence! >> > >> > Thank you, in advance, for not responding to this >> post. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> > > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social > dance! > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:29:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus The man leads. He determines the step. That is his role. But there is so much more to this dance than leading steps. If I dance to the same music with 10 different women, together we will create 10 very different dances. I will lead every step for every dance, and the women will follow. But still every dance will be different. I will listen to, reflect and be influenced by each woman's interpretation. I cannot transcend my own dance. But if the woman dances with me, rather than merely follows... Daniel Lapadula described it this way: Imagine the man is a cup of coffee. And imagine that all women are different; one woman is steamed cream, another is sugar, and a third is Irish Whiskey. Each will improve the coffee, but the combination of any one of them with the coffee will be very different. [More than one at a time, or anything involving whipped cream, and you have to go to a different list. :-)] Susana Miller once said (about a woman obsessed with technique), that a woman may follow flawlessly, and yet never dance. She asked why I would waste my time with a woman who doesn't dance, no matter how well she follows. Sean --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: Look all the good performances on youtube. Do you see a single one, where the leader does not DETERMINE the step? I have yet to see any, good or even bad, performance where both are equal 50% leaders. PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Be a better friend, newshound, and Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 06:26:50 -0800 (PST) From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, Tango-L Krasimir, I could add the following to what you said: A step is in three parts. 1. The leader suggests the direction and feel of the step. 2. The follower interprets what the leader has suggested and makes the step. 3. The leader follows the follower through the step. Given this sequence, during parts 2 and 3, it is the follower who could be thought of as having the monologue. :o) However, I prefer to think of the entire sequence as a myriad of small conversations going on. Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: No important is where I am from. Look all the good performances on youtube. Do you see a single one, where the leader does not DETERMINE the step? I have yet to see any, good or even bad, performance where both are equal 50% leaders. People, this is an art form. It is not politics, and please, stop fighting for equality, it is irrelevant here. I personally like to follow very much. But when I follow, I FOLLOW. I don't want to speak, I listen. I am the listening part of the monologue, and there is much pleasure in it. But you with your prejudices may never feel it. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > Krasimir, > > I'm not sure where you're from, but the reason you don't > see the 50/50 dialogue might be because the women in your > area aren't encouraged to reach that point. > > It's very difficult for a woman to reach that point of > feeling and being an equal partner in the dance, both > technically and psychologically. > > I have lost count of the number of women who have described > an exchange with a man with me and have asked if he was > being condenscending. The answer is usually yes. > > Understand this - they are actually asking me whether > condenscending behavior is okay or not! They are looking > for guidance in what they should already know is not good > behavior. The amazing part is that unless I confirm what > they already know, they will accept this behavior as > normal! I know this because of certain dynamics that have > occurred in my community. > > So if you'd like to see a more 50/50 dialogue, do what you > can to encourage the women to become equal partners. > You'll enjoy the results. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > >> Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 >> dialogue. >> >> So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass >> :-) instead of trying >> to play the too clever violin. >> >> This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some >> additions from the >> follower. >> >> Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, >> playing violin), it >> becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am >> tired of this >> pseudo-tango. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tango For Her" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM >> Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from >> Venus >> >> >> > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS >> > >> > === Here's something that I got from the book: >> > >> > Men are from Mars: When discussing something, men want >> to state the >> > answer. >> > >> > Women are from Venus: Women discuss to discuss. The >> answer isn't as >> > important as the exchange of information. (It's been a >> while since I've >> > read the book. I know I could have stated this >> better.) >> > >> > === Here is how I see it playing out in life: >> > >> > The man has the answer (so he thinks) and forces it on >> the woman. >> > >> > Because the man has the answer, he is forcing the >> conversation toward a >> > monologue. >> > >> > The woman is barraged with this everyday. >> > >> > === Let's apply it to tango: >> > >> > Plenty of men know they are doing the step >> correctly, therefore they >> > believe that the woman should accept it and just >> follow, damn it! >> > >> > Plenty of men know they are right and are awfully >> busy telling the >> > women that they are wrong. >> > >> > These men turn the dance into a monologue. >> > >> > Women would sure love a beautiful conversation. >> > >> > === Here is how I see it applying to these posts: >> > >> > The women have stated, very clearly, that they don't >> appreciate being >> > thought of in certain ways. >> > >> > The men are right and must make the women see this. >> > >> > === Putting it all together >> > >> > Men, if you will stop having to be right, this thread >> will cease to the >> > delight of many! >> > >> > Try this on: You don't have to understand Venus. It's >> okay. Take a vow >> > of silence on this topic for a week. At the end of >> that week, be okay >> > with that silence! >> > >> > Thank you, in advance, for not responding to this >> post. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> > > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social > dance! > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > Krasimir, > > I'm not sure where you're from, but the reason you don't > see the 50/50 dialogue might be because the women in your > area aren't encouraged to reach that point. > > It's very difficult for a woman to reach that point of > feeling and being an equal partner in the dance, both > technically and psychologically. > > I have lost count of the number of women who have described > an exchange with a man with me and have asked if he was > being condenscending. The answer is usually yes. > > Understand this - they are actually asking me whether > condenscending behavior is okay or not! They are looking > for guidance in what they should already know is not good > behavior. The amazing part is that unless I confirm what > they already know, they will accept this behavior as > normal! I know this because of certain dynamics that have > occurred in my community. > > So if you'd like to see a more 50/50 dialogue, do what you > can to encourage the women to become equal partners. > You'll enjoy the results. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > >> Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 >> dialogue. >> >> So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass >> :-) instead of trying >> to play the too clever violin. >> >> This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some >> additions from the >> follower. >> >> Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, >> playing violin), it >> becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am >> tired of this >> pseudo-tango. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tango For Her" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM >> Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from >> Venus >> >> >> > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS >> > >> > === Here's something that I got from the book: >> > >> > Men are from Mars: When discussing something, men want >> to state the >> > answer. >> > >> > Women are from Venus: Women discuss to discuss. The >> answer isn't as >> > important as the exchange of information. (It's been a >> while since I've >> > read the book. I know I could have stated this >> better.) >> > >> > === Here is how I see it playing out in life: >> > >> > The man has the answer (so he thinks) and forces it on >> the woman. >> > >> > Because the man has the answer, he is forcing the >> conversation toward a >> > monologue. >> > >> > The woman is barraged with this everyday. >> > >> > === Let's apply it to tango: >> > >> > Plenty of men know they are doing the step >> correctly, therefore they >> > believe that the woman should accept it and just >> follow, damn it! >> > >> > Plenty of men know they are right and are awfully >> busy telling the >> > women that they are wrong. >> > >> > These men turn the dance into a monologue. >> > >> > Women would sure love a beautiful conversation. >> > >> > === Here is how I see it applying to these posts: >> > >> > The women have stated, very clearly, that they don't >> appreciate being >> > thought of in certain ways. >> > >> > The men are right and must make the women see this. >> > >> > === Putting it all together >> > >> > Men, if you will stop having to be right, this thread >> will cease to the >> > delight of many! >> > >> > Try this on: You don't have to understand Venus. It's >> okay. Take a vow >> > of silence on this topic for a week. At the end of >> that week, be okay >> > with that silence! >> > >> > Thank you, in advance, for not responding to this >> post. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. >> >> > > > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society > Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social > dance! > https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ > > > > > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 07:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: > No important is where I am from. > Look all the good performances on youtube. Do you see a > single one, where > the leader does not DETERMINE the step? I have yet to see > any, good or even > bad, performance where both are equal 50% leaders. But performance videos are limiting because both parties are aware of their audience and can change how they dance for entertainment purposes. In good social dancing, where you see a strong connection between a couple, there's quite often a 50/50 partnership. It's also not always possible to see when the woman suggests the step and the man follows. If the man is really good, he makes it look smooth because he is following her and is extremely sensitive. Don't underestimate how sensitive the really really good leaders are. How I would describe dancing with these Argentines with 30+ years of experience is that they become one with me, as opposed to asking me to become one with them. Sometimes I feel as if they're reading my mind. It really does feel as if I'm dancing along and they are accompanying me. I've been a very lucky follower. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance! https://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 18:50:37 +0200 From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus Shorty, these 1, 2 and 3 are simply one and the same thing, because they mostly overlap. They never happen one after the other. Or, if they happen in such an order, it is not tango at all, some tango grotesque maybe. No, I am not going to discuss the technique. Someone said it before me: https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2004/msg00020.html Some parts of this publication demonstrate very high level of understanding the matter. Actually, it is simple, but blinded by the "equality" thing, one may miss the real gems there. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tango For Her To: Krasimir Stoyanov ; Tango-L Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus Krasimir, I could add the following to what you said: A step is in three parts. 1. The leader suggests the direction and feel of the step. 2. The follower interprets what the leader has suggested and makes the step. 3. The leader follows the follower through the step. Given this sequence, during parts 2 and 3, it is the follower who could be thought of as having the monologue. :o) However, I prefer to think of the entire sequence as a myriad of small conversations going on. Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: No important is where I am from. Look all the good performances on youtube. Do you see a single one, where the leader does not DETERMINE the step? I have yet to see any, good or even bad, performance where both are equal 50% leaders. People, this is an art form. It is not politics, and please, stop fighting for equality, it is irrelevant here. I personally like to follow very much. But when I follow, I FOLLOW. I don't want to speak, I listen. I am the listening part of the monologue, and there is much pleasure in it. But you with your prejudices may never feel it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" To: "Krasimir Stoyanov" ; "Tango-L" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > Krasimir, > > I'm not sure where you're from, but the reason you don't > see the 50/50 dialogue might be because the women in your > area aren't encouraged to reach that point. > > It's very difficult for a woman to reach that point of > feeling and being an equal partner in the dance, both > technically and psychologically. > > I have lost count of the number of women who have described > an exchange with a man with me and have asked if he was > being condenscending. The answer is usually yes. > > Understand this - they are actually asking me whether > condenscending behavior is okay or not! They are looking > for guidance in what they should already know is not good > behavior. The amazing part is that unless I confirm what > they already know, they will accept this behavior as > normal! I know this because of certain dynamics that have > occurred in my community. > > So if you'd like to see a more 50/50 dialogue, do what you > can to encourage the women to become equal partners. > You'll enjoy the results. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > >> Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 >> dialogue. >> >> So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass >> :-) instead of trying >> to play the too clever violin. >> >> This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some >> additions from the >> follower. >> >> Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, >> playing violin), it >> becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am >> tired of this >> pseudo-tango. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tango For Her" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM >> Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from >> Venus >> >> >> > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS >> > >> > === Here's something that I got from the book: >> > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:50:37 -0800 (PST) From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus To: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>, Tango-L Hey! I was just told that I dance grotesque tango! Cool! I'll be sure to let my partner know that that nirvana that we, sometimes, approach is grostesque! By the way, did you REALLY mean to tell me that I must be dancing grotesque tango? I'll ask so that I can learn. Did you mean to belittle the way I think of tango or am I just reading it wrong? Reading the article, I already said that there are a lot of little communications that go on within a step. Here's what I said: "However, I prefer to think of the entire sequence as a myriad of small conversations going on." In the article he said what I said, but with more detail! Anyway, on a macro level, it is A GREAT WAY to get younger leaders to pay better attention of their followers. Grotesque or helpful? I choose to be nice and be helpful. By the way I, for one, CAN make them happen one after another. Never say never, lest you close the doors to expanding your mind! Signed, Your grostesque tango dancer Oh, wait, there's more! "blinded by the "equality" thing, one may miss the real gems there." Who is blinded by the equality thing? I know that there have been different viewpoints here, but, was that a dig? I bet that if I danced with any of the followers that have been in these conversations, we would learn from each other's viewpoints. I don't think any of them are blinded. Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote: Shorty, these 1, 2 and 3 are simply one and the same thing, because they mostly overlap. They never happen one after the other. Or, if they happen in such an order, it is not tango at all, some tango grotesque maybe. No, I am not going to discuss the technique. Someone said it before me: https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2004/msg00020.html Some parts of this publication demonstrate very high level of understanding the matter. Actually, it is simple, but blinded by the "equality" thing, one may miss the real gems there. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus Krasimir, I could add the following to what you said: A step is in three parts. 1. The leader suggests the direction and feel of the step. 2. The follower interprets what the leader has suggested and makes the step. 3. The leader follows the follower through the step. Given this sequence, during parts 2 and 3, it is the follower who could be thought of as having the monologue. :o) However, I prefer to think of the entire sequence as a myriad of small conversations going on. Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: No important is where I am from. Look all the good performances on youtube. Do you see a single one, where the leader does not DETERMINE the step? I have yet to see any, good or even bad, performance where both are equal 50% leaders. People, this is an art form. It is not politics, and please, stop fighting for equality, it is irrelevant here. I personally like to follow very much. But when I follow, I FOLLOW. I don't want to speak, I listen. I am the listening part of the monologue, and there is much pleasure in it. But you with your prejudices may never feel it. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus > Krasimir, > > I'm not sure where you're from, but the reason you don't > see the 50/50 dialogue might be because the women in your > area aren't encouraged to reach that point. > > It's very difficult for a woman to reach that point of > feeling and being an equal partner in the dance, both > technically and psychologically. > > I have lost count of the number of women who have described > an exchange with a man with me and have asked if he was > being condenscending. The answer is usually yes. > > Understand this - they are actually asking me whether > condenscending behavior is okay or not! They are looking > for guidance in what they should already know is not good > behavior. The amazing part is that unless I confirm what > they already know, they will accept this behavior as > normal! I know this because of certain dynamics that have > occurred in my community. > > So if you'd like to see a more 50/50 dialogue, do what you > can to encourage the women to become equal partners. > You'll enjoy the results. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > --- Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > >> Sorry, I have not yet seen a tango, that is 50/50 >> dialogue. >> >> So, I would gladly be a violin (more likely contrabass >> :-) instead of trying >> to play the too clever violin. >> >> This dance is a monologue,like it ot not, adorned by some >> additions from the >> follower. >> >> Otherwise, instead of telling a story, (painting canvas, >> playing violin), it >> becomes a quarrel. I see it every night locally. And I am >> tired of this >> pseudo-tango. >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tango For Her" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 4:23 PM >> Subject: [Tango-L] Men are from Mars, Women are from >> Venus >> >> >> > MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS >> > >> > === Here's something that I got from the book: >> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. Continue to of violins & ladies \| ARTICLE INDEX