5000 Mens group practice
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:28:47 +0100
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I recently watched "ABRAZO" the documentary on the Tango festival in BA and there was a short clip of an all male production. The scene was then cut to Godoy talking about how men used to dance with men in terms of showing their skills, not nessercerily dancing together (embrace).
Anyhow the reason I ask is the title I saw on this clip was "Tango Emocion" which I assume was footage from Godoy's show. I have just purchased
"Tango Emocion - Mora Godoy - Tango Company [DVD] (2005)" from the US and am hoping this is from the show and on the DVD.
I mention this as I am actually thinking about trying to revive this male group dynamic, this practise together here in the UK. As some of you may recall I am involved with Housedance and though a separate dance; a group of us meet up and "jam" together. Watching each other learning and picking up different styles and steps. It would be interesting if such a thing as portrayed in that clip were to exist again. Men being men, and working together on polishing there techniques.
Let me know your thoughts or if this already exists anywhere in the world?
Thanks
'Mash
London, UK
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:54:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>, "\[Tango-L\]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi 'Mash,
In my experience, it's mainly men aged under-30 who are
willing to try following. Haven't met many men over the
age of 40 who are interested in following, and those that
are do not pursue it seriously. Without a willingness to
follow, I'm afraid an exchange among men is of limited use.
We've tried encouraging it but I get the impression that
they don't attain much joy in the process - kinda like
having to eat your veggies when you're a kid. I'm guessing
that the men in the video probably started tango while they
were still young.
With women, it's different. They may be hesitant at first,
but once they try it they make more of an effort to learn
to lead.
I'd love it if men could be encouraged to learn to how to
follow to encourage such an exchange. I think men don't
realize that one reason women can become such good leaders
quickly is that they know what a good leader feels like -
musical, sensitive, and just plain fun.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- 'Mash <mashdot@toshine.net> wrote:
>
> I recently watched "ABRAZO" the documentary on the Tango
> festival in BA and there was a short clip of an all male
> production. The scene was then cut to Godoy talking about
> how men used to dance with men in terms of showing their
> skills, not nessercerily dancing together (embrace).
>
> Anyhow the reason I ask is the title I saw on this clip
> was "Tango Emocion" which I assume was footage from
> Godoy's show. I have just purchased
> "Tango Emocion - Mora Godoy - Tango Company [DVD] (2005)"
> from the US and am hoping this is from the show and on
> the DVD.
>
> I mention this as I am actually thinking about trying to
> revive this male group dynamic, this practise together
> here in the UK. As some of you may recall I am involved
> with Housedance and though a separate dance; a group of
> us meet up and "jam" together. Watching each other
> learning and picking up different styles and steps. It
> would be interesting if such a thing as portrayed in that
> clip were to exist again. Men being men, and working
> together on polishing there techniques.
>
> Let me know your thoughts or if this already exists
> anywhere in the world?
>
> Thanks
>
> 'Mash
> London, UK
>
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 19:18:41 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hey Mash,
I've hosted a few (free) men-only workshops in my flat, and I've also
been getting men to dance with each other in my group classes for the
past few months. Occasionally I (or other guys) dance a tanda with a man
at the milongas, just for the hell of it.
As far as I can tell, people enjoy seeing it. And some of my male
students now enjoy learning the dance from both sides, and gaining the
greater perspective that comes with that. If people have barriers,
they'll either break through them (to their own benefit) or not.
But if you're looking to cultivate a group habit with it, you might as
well give it the larger goal of community improvement too. Bring new
guys into the dance that way, rather than making it a good-leader
clique... The novices will, I'm sure, learn rapidly and thoroughly, and
become quality partners for the women in your community.
Which is, of course, more than a nice side-effect.
Jake Spatz
DC
p.s. As for Trini's comment about resistance to following among over-40
dudes... I ain't seen it that much. Any man, once exposed to the value
of learning to follow, will see the obvious value in it and remain open
to the idea. I think she's talking about who puts it on the social
floor, which is a different matter and (to me) an insignificant one,
with respect to this issue. If there's already more women at the
milonga, men typically won't make the ratio worse by occupying each other.
'Mash wrote:
> I recently watched "ABRAZO" the documentary on the Tango festival in BA and there was a short clip of an all male production. The scene was then cut to Godoy talking about how men used to dance with men in terms of showing their skills, not nessercerily dancing together (embrace).
>
> Anyhow the reason I ask is the title I saw on this clip was "Tango Emocion" which I assume was footage from Godoy's show. I have just purchased
> "Tango Emocion - Mora Godoy - Tango Company [DVD] (2005)" from the US and am hoping this is from the show and on the DVD.
>
> I mention this as I am actually thinking about trying to revive this male group dynamic, this practise together here in the UK. As some of you may recall I am involved with Housedance and though a separate dance; a group of us meet up and "jam" together. Watching each other learning and picking up different styles and steps. It would be interesting if such a thing as portrayed in that clip were to exist again. Men being men, and working together on polishing there techniques.
>
> Let me know your thoughts or if this already exists anywhere in the world?
>
> Thanks
>
> 'Mash
> London, UK
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:20:20 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>Hi 'Mash,
>
>In my experience, it's mainly men aged under-30 who are
>willing to try following. Haven't met many men over the
>age of 40 who are interested in following, and those that
>are do not pursue it seriously. Without a willingness to
>follow, I'm afraid an exchange among men is of limited use.
>
>
So where do I get practice at following? The final issue here is that
for most social dancing this will take people far from their comfort
zone and so they just have no desire to do it. Sure they will plateau
with their dancing but as long as it works, why bother? This is the
single biggest reason really that men don't follow and women don't lead.
Many people on this list are instructors and *do* sincerely want to
improve. They forget that the average member of the community has a lot
less investment of themselves in it and are less motivated.
Well, as you all know I do martial arts. The one big training precept
their is that you learn a technique best by receiving it as well as
giving it and I think that applies in spades to dancing. In our
community I think there are a fair number of men who would like to
follow (at least in theory), but have contact anxiety being led by
another man. (Yes it's a guy thing and maybe rather than telling us
we're silly you should consider that you don't quite understand guys
after all...) I think that if more women were to get interested in
leading that might help solve the issue. Not sure if this applies
outside our area...
> We've tried encouraging it but I get the impression that
>they don't attain much joy in the process - kinda like
>having to eat your veggies when you're a kid.
>
Men are also uncomfortable following because they have little practice
with it and are consequently very clumsy. So here you are, a great tango
dancer in your own right and first time you lead you do everything that
you've been grousing at beginner's for. That's a dis-incentive for some.
The sort of awareness you need is very different than when you lead as
well as the body sense. Contrary to popular lore, following is gosh darn
hard work. The biggest limiting factor I'm finding in my tango is that
women don't really think there is that much to following and
consequently do not try to expand their abilities once they hit their
comfort zone.
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:18:24 -0700
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Men are also uncomfortable following because they have little practice
>with it and are consequently very clumsy. So here you are, a great
tango
>dancer in your own right and first time you lead you do everything
that
>you've been grousing at beginner's for. That's a dis-incentive for
some.
>The sort of awareness you need is very different than when you lead as
>well as the body sense. Contrary to popular lore, following is gosh
darn
>hard work. The biggest limiting factor I'm finding in my tango is that
>women don't really think there is that much to following and
>consequently do not try to expand their abilities once they hit their
>comfort zone.
Ding! Right on the money.
I've been in foundations classes here in the bay area and in boston,
where certain MEN will not take me as their follower because I'm a
guy. Its not because I'm a bad follower, its the whole GUY-THING.
I completely agree with this assertion that if you lead, you must
learn to follow. It makes you better leader...it really does. As a
lead you begin to understand exactly what is being asked of you as a
follower, it also strangely enough allows you the capacity to break
down the dance in a way that you hadn't seen before and thereby
produce some amazing figures as a lead. You begin to see
opportunities everywhere instead of putting your feet where they're
'supposed' to be, you begin to experiment and play and create. Its
actually quite freeing in more ways than you can imagine possible.
Tango from the lead side of things can be very mentally arduous. But
its a whole different angle when you add on top of that the level of
work that a follower has to go through in order to do what you just
'suggested' she do for you. I say suggested because it is a
suggestion, because in the few short months that I've been actively
following, I've learned that I've become a better leader because I
know exactly what I'm asking my follower to do, because I've done it
myself. Its improved my embrace, its improved my communication
skills, its opened opportunities. I can't stress this enough...leads
- LEARN HOW TO FOLLOW! You'll begin to understand just how frakkin
hard it is to do what some neophyte or experienced lead with an over
inflated ego who knows nothing of what its like to follow is asking
of you. And being rather brutish about it. Yes you will look stupid
at first, but you'll get better. And then you'll begin to appreciate
the better leads in the room. It will change your dance. I know a
lead here in the bay area that changed his whole M.O. after going to
a men's practica, and now you see him taking foundations classes as a
follower all the time. Well I see it. He's actually getting better
as a lead and a follower...and I've heard women say the same thing
about it.
The same thing for followers....LEARN HOW TO LEAD. It will get rid
of those nasty habits that every lead has been yapping at you about
for the last X number of years! At the same time it will improve
your abilities in so many areas. You'll finally get that whole 'on
the beat' thing. Why its important to keep your embellishments clear,
small and not to go wild on your dance partner. And that's just the
tip of the iceberg. It will also open up a world of dance partners
for you, instead of sitting all night long, change your shoes and
become a leader and get to dancing! Talk about a wild ride!
Just my .43 cents worth.
Oooops, there I go again, I'm in your inbox...again Sorry about that.
M i l e s.
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:02:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I take it that you are over aged 40, Jeff? ;)
I never suggested that men were silly for not learning the
women's role. I only pointed out a possible barrier to
implementation to 'Mash. In my travels in the Central/East
Coast of the U.S. The only place I've seen where a
significant number of men were comfortable following is Ann
Arbor, which is a demographically young community.
You're right about having women interested in leading will
encourage men to practice their following. Surely there's
a female teacher in your area? I would think she should
know how to lead basic vocabulary.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net> wrote:
In our community I think there are a fair number of men
who would like to follow (at least in theory), but have
contact anxiety being led by another man. (Yes it's a guy
thing and maybe rather than telling us we're silly you
should consider that you don't quite understand guys after
all...)
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that gives answers, not web links.
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:50:28 +0100
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 09:18:24AM -0700, m i l e s wrote:
> Just my .43 cents worth.
>
> Oooops, there I go again, I'm in your inbox...again Sorry about that.
>
> M i l e s.
>
Another classic from HipHop's hall of fame; Miles "43 Cent" with "Oooops I'm up in your inbox."
--
'Mash
London,UK
"May we be cautious in our strive for perfection
lest we lose the ability to dance."
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:29:32 +0100
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 07:18:41PM -0400, Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com) wrote:
> Hey Mash,
>
> I've hosted a few (free) men-only workshops in my flat, and I've also
> been getting men to dance with each other in my group classes for the
> past few months. Occasionally I (or other guys) dance a tanda with a man
> at the milongas, just for the hell of it.
>
Yup, thats what I was talking about. It would be great to see if this informal social practice exists here in London. Leandro runs a monthly techniques class which I always get so much out of. But it is still a workshop and less of just guys getting together and showing off, watching and learning from each other and basically enjoying the dance for dance sake. I have recently discovered that I suck at walking. I had the opportunity to lead Leandro's partner Romina and she immediately pointed out in great detail where I am going wrong. I am thinking to much, trying to do to much and not just walking.
This is what I would like to think a get together would sort out. A space for new dancers to get away from the thinking and back to the dancing. Then taking that passion, fun, creativity and putting it back into our connection with our partners.
Personally I am having to rethink my approach to Tango.
It is a dance not a discipline.
--
'Mash
London,UK
"May we be cautious in our strive for perfection
lest we lose the ability to dance."
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:38:06 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
We've had a weekly, men-only, drop-in group lesson here in Portland for some time, now hosted by Alex Krebs. It attracts complete beginners and advanced dancers alike. While we do work on leader technique, we mostly concentrate on follower's stuff, and everyone can attest, as many on the list have pointed out, that there are huge benefits to a leader from experiencing what it feels like to be led well vs. poorly.
At Portland milongas it is common to see men partnering with men for a tanda. While men dancing with men has happened frequently for years, a major change happened when Daniel Trenner was here for a week last year and taught a well-attended men's class in following. Then during one of the milongas, he and Alex did a performance that was just amazing. It really cranked up a lot of interest and enthusiasm for the process. Shortly afterwards a local tanguero started up a weekly men-only practica, and a little later Alex took it over as a drop-in group lesson. It's been very successful.
J
TangoMoments.com
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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:05:21 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Mens group practice
To: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Cc: "\[Tango-L\]" <tango-l@mit.edu>
We have in past here in Ann Arbor had reverse classes in swing and lindy
hop: all men take the class as follows and all women take the class as
leads. Since it is everyone in the class, there are no gender imbalance
issues. (Men in our community seem to be more highly motivated to learn
to follow...women are less easily persuaded to give it a try.)
Jay Rabe wrote:
> We've had a weekly, men-only, drop-in group lesson here in Portland for some time, now hosted by Alex Krebs. It attracts complete beginners and advanced dancers alike. While we do work on leader technique, we mostly concentrate on follower's stuff, and everyone can attest, as many on the list have pointed out, that there are huge benefits to a leader from experiencing what it feels like to be led well vs. poorly.
>
> At Portland milongas it is common to see men partnering with men for a tanda. While men dancing with men has happened frequently for years, a major change happened when Daniel Trenner was here for a week last year and taught a well-attended men's class in following. Then during one of the milongas, he and Alex did a performance that was just amazing. It really cranked up a lot of interest and enthusiasm for the process. Shortly afterwards a local tanguero started up a weekly men-only practica, and a little later Alex took it over as a drop-in group lesson. It's been very successful.
>
> J
> TangoMoments.com
>
> Make every IM count. Download Windows Live Messenger and join the i?m Initiative now. It?s free.
> https://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGWL_June07
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
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