2845  Milango (Konstantin)

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:52:51 -0700
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milango (Konstantin)

Konstantin <Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA>:

>

Could you indicate where the "two-and-one-hold-" is in relation to this:

.1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & 1
Pa'n ca fe' con pa'n ca fe' con pa'n etc
.um pa um pa um

<

Look at the top line of the pattern. You will see: 2 & 1 &
That is the {2-and-one-hold-}.
Like salsa on 3, or batchata ;) but I am not referring to any steps, just to
the music.

Listen to the exact effect in 19-teens tangos by the principal orchestras.

As to the "European tango" marching pattern ... I think it is a fascinating
subject, whatever one thinks of the aesthetics of it. As early (or late) as
the late 1920's or early 1930's (if memory serves me) there were
Argentine-style orchestras ti'picas in Germany (I don't know other countries)
playing tango as in Argentina, bandoneons and all; but by the time I started
listening (fifties) and dancing (1960) to tango music, all that seemed to be
coming out of Germany was Werner Mueller a.k.a. Ricardo Santos orchestra,
with the "ballroom tango" sound, exactly as you describe. (However the kettle
drums play only on the second 16th note of the triple, which is what makes
the pattern "tick".)

Where did that stuff come from? When did the Arg style tango go away, if it
did disappear from Germany? Is there any nexus with Arg musicians in Europe,
or anything at all Argentine? Since I never saw any evidence of a watershed
of the type Old Guard / New Guard in European / North Am "ballroom tango"
folklore, I suspect that the "march-like" was there early enough to be the
standard for "institutionalized ballroom tango"; and, since it seems to
reflect much more closely the New Guard, not earlier than the 1920's. If
there was a "mistake", who made it, and when? To my mind this is a
fascinating question, about which I never saw a single written line that I
can remember.

As you can see, I cannot help you in the least. Maybe others in the list can.

Cheers,

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 05:27:00 -0700
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milango (Konstantin)

Habanera rhythmic pattern and the "Eropean ballroom tango" thump-thump

Sorry, understanding this, just as similar recent remarks by myself and
others, requires either a little bit of music background, or a little outside
help. With that it is actually quite simple, and I believe not altogether
uninteresting or useless. I have run out of tricks, so I will assume that
tiny bit of background.

Woha, here's a tidbit about the possible pedigree of the European march-like
ballroom "tango" pattern. Possible, only. I keep noticing this and forgetting
it, but this is it now, no more.

The pattern is a de-natured and shifted habanera pattern.

First, how do you de-nature? (This is the principal step in the procedure.)
Easy! Instead of the normal habanera pattern

{dotted 8th, 16th, 8th, 8th} you go

{8th, 16th, >16th, 8th, 8th}

i.e., you add an attack (can be relatively weak) on the second quaternary
beat, taking away in the process the dotted effect: now you have no "missed"
quaternary beats. The result is so insipid, that you have to compensate
somehow for the complete loss of the habanera character. Let us do that by
accenting (off beat) the hell out of that critical second 16th note. If you
do this, voila', the "European ballroom tango" thump-thump comes magically
into being, more clearly so if you make all 8th note attacks about equally
accented. If you are sharp with your feeling for meter you will notice that
you are slightly off, one binary beat shifted, i.e., 1 exchanged with 2. But
that is nothing. Shifting one binary beat either way fixes the "problem":

{8th, 8th, 8th, 16th, >16th}

(Compare with Konstantin's first posting in this thread.)

You can omit the 8th at the beginning without changing the character of the
"rhythmic melody"; in fact it is "cleaner" that way.

It is also interesting to see how the habanera feeling returns magically the
moment you omit the first 16th note. In fact, the switch is rather more
dramatic this way. Our musical sense is subtle indeed.

While the dominant pulse (heart beat) of the habanera tends to be the binary
one, in this stuff it tends to be the quaternary one, march-like with 4
military steps per measure.

Cheers,

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 16:03:13 -0700
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milango (Konstantin)

Before I rejoinder Jay Jenkins response to Cristopher's remarks, all about
European bastardized "tango", let me thank JJ for his previous thorough
posting under the caption Carlos's milonga. It may give the opportunity, my
time permitting, to give a thorough thrashing, pardon me, airing to my views
on how to recognize proper history, and what a non-scholar (Jay or myself, or
anyone else) should strive for -- if we want, inter alia, to enjoy the higher
fascinations of the actual, rather than of the fanciful. That will not be
today. So,

Jay Jenkins:

> If somebody tells me that he is trying to decipher the pedigree of the

march-like European ballroom tango pattern. <

If I said that ;) I mis-spoke myself. I said here's a tidbit about the poss
pedigree, etc. I obviously meant possible MUSICAL pedigree, how one may have
degenerated into the other, as practiced by musicians. I remain as puzzled as
before concerning the historical facts, or plausible, rational, guesses (as
opposed to nonsensical guesses) about the historical facts: who, where, when,
how, for what reason, etc. Habanera is not there as a genre, as it is
perfectly clear to the careful reader that I am talking of the habanera
rhytmic pattern. I am assuming that by now people with a pair of ears and a
few well chosen vintage recordings know that that is also the rhythmic
pattern of the standard Old Guard tango.

> Then he says that it came to being due to the de-naturalization of the

Habanera. <

That I most certainly did not say. EVERY time the word habanera appears in my
posting it is QUALIFYING some other word (pattern, mostly; feeling, pulse,
character). Jay I hope you were paying a little more attention than this
during your years of academic preparation.

> Then he gives details on how such de-naturalization takes place. <

Again, not paying attention. I am the farthest thing possible from a
"scholar" who makes bald statements of fact without ANY visible or invisible
means of support OR even minimal plausibility. I do not even know that that
de-naturalization actually took place. It is just something that makes it
much less puzzling how Arg tango could possibly have been bastardized in the
way it was.

> Then finally announces "Eureka" or voila' "The European ballroom tango "

was born. <

Again, not a very good student Jay, are you? You know, some readers (and they
are more numerous than you think) are actually doing what I suggest the
reader do, if s/he can. If they do, VOILA' the bastardized pattern will
materialise in their hands ... or feet.

> It seems to me that he started with the ingredient (Habanera) <

Did I? I was not aware of this.

> a dance called "De ida y vuelta" (that goes and comes back) in reference to

the fact that it left from Spain, went to Cuba where it suffered some changes
and then returned to the original country under the name of Habanera, to
arrive later on to the Rio de la Plata where it was a precursor of Tango. <

I agree almost 100% with this, though it can be improved. Now, where did I
contradict these wise words, hah?

> Carlos states that the ingredient is habanera no Argentine Tango, this

habanera suffers some modification in Europe and so it becomes the European
Tango. <

Carlos is not baking a cake, so he has no ingredients. They are all in your
imagination.

> To me this is a creation that goes from Habanera (a precursor of Argentine

tango) directly to the European Tango totally by-passing the Argentine Tango.
<

But only you, Jay; everybody else (just about) understands what I actually
said, I bet. But once again, for the record, I think it much more likely that
the bastardized form came about in the process of imitating, or adapting the
Arg tango, than as a result of imitating or adapting the habanera. By 1920
Europeans had had a many decades long acquaintance with the habanera, not to
mention that the rhythm, and / or close relatives, is present in other
European music, folk and professionally composed. Spaniards did not complain
too hard, did they, when Bizet, in 1874 or 1875 !!!! composed a "habanera"
for Carmen, some say with an actual habanera folk melody from Spain. (I take
that cum big grano salis till further evidence.)

> I do not know what other meaning can I give to that post. <

Try the one that is written down.

> Would you please let me know your interpretation. <

I just did.

> If I misunderstood the meaning of that reasoning then I apologize. <

Peace, or a nice and exciting war about facts and reasonable ideas, and
cheers,

PS - Sorry for the couple of ad hominem remarks. If you promise to give up
yours, and stick to the promise, I will give up mine, I PromisE !!