5449 Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:55:58 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Decades ago the young men stood in the center of the dance floor, and the
girls sat at tables around the perimeter in neighborhood clubs with an older
relative or friend who escorted them to the dance. The men invited the
girls with the cabeceo. The only opportunity they had to talk was between
dances, but the conversation was brief and private. And it was limited to
the topic of the music.
I learned that the topic of conversation during a tanda is only about the
music from dancing with milongueros. The woman is the one who initiates.
If she says nothing, the man doesn't speak. Talking isn't mandatory between
dances. One leaves their personal life at the door of a milonga. The music
is the main event in a milonga. At least it used to be.
Today there is so much conversation that it is difficult to hear the music.
It's no surprise that the sound level has to be increased to hear the music
over all the talking. A milonguero told me that he went to dance last night
and left after a half hour because there was so much noise.
A brief exchange between partners on the dance floor should be low enough
that others do not hear what is being said, like whispering into the other
person's ear. These days it is possible to hear conversation in the middle
of the dance floor while one is seated at a table.
Tangos are three minutes long, and yet conversation between dances continues
for most of the tango. There are some who continue talking requiring others
to dance around them. There are some who continue talking while dancing.
It keeps getting worse and worse in Buenos Aires.
There is an interview with Gustavo Naveira in which he says it used to be
about the music; now it's about the dance. I disagree with him. He doesn't
understand what is special about tango because he has been concentrating on
technically identifying everything in dance. He is missing the essence of
tango. It still is all about the music.
https://www.10tango.com/interior/detalle_nota.php?idx&seccion=4
Janis
www.ToTango.net/milongueros.html
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:40:31 +1100
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Janis Kenyon wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Tangos are three minutes long, and yet conversation between dances continues
> for most of the tango. There are some who continue talking requiring others
> to dance around them. There are some who continue talking while dancing.
> It keeps getting worse and worse in Buenos Aires.
>
> <snip>
>
Not just in Buenos Aires either. Ad Melbourne, Australia to the list.
I had always assumed that the delay between start of music and start of
dancing was to listen to the music, determine its character, then dance
to fit the music. That made sense with live music.
When it is a CD that you danced to last week, and the week before, and
listened to in the car .. it seems to me that no longer makes any sense,
My feeling is that if you have something that is SO important to talk
about, get off the floor and do it. Floor is for dancing. Tables and
chairs, over there, off the floor, is for talking.
I have a (possibly uncharitable) feeling that the whole delay thing is
an affectation. "The longer I talk, the more 'authentic' it makes me look."
rde
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:05:22 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Roger wrote:
<<My feeling is that if you have something that is SO important to talk
about, get off the floor and do it. Floor is for dancing. Tables and
chairs, over there, off the floor, is for talking.>>
Last night at Centro Region Leonesa, I saw Mario from Milan talking during
the entire last tango of the tanda while on the floor. At least the floor
wasn't that crowded at 10pm last night at Leonesa, so he wasn't interfering
with those who were dancing. He must have had something very important to
talk about, no?
Janis
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:38:27 +0100
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Janis,
I am quite surprised: you keep on telling the list that due to privacy one should not take pictures at milongas and distribute them on the internet ...
... but in the same moment your are telling the world that "Mario from Milan" kept on talking during a whole tanda last night.
Please also respect Mario's (or others!) privacy by not trumpeting this out to the world! Even if Mario is not argentinian he has the same rights of privacy as all the others! Or do those rights only count for true blue argentinian? (naaaaa!)
Thanks!
Christian
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:05:22 -0300
> Von: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
> Betreff: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
> Roger wrote:
> <<My feeling is that if you have something that is SO important to talk
> about, get off the floor and do it. Floor is for dancing. Tables and
> chairs, over there, off the floor, is for talking.>>
>
>
> Last night at Centro Region Leonesa, I saw Mario from Milan talking during
> the entire last tango of the tanda while on the floor. At least the floor
> wasn't that crowded at 10pm last night at Leonesa, so he wasn't
> interfering
> with those who were dancing. He must have had something very important to
> talk about, no?
>
> Janis
>
>
--
just my personal 50th of an Euro
christian.luethen@gmx.net
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS.
Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: https://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:05:20 +1100
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Janis Kenyon wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Last night at Centro Region Leonesa, I saw <someone> talking during
> the entire last tango of the tanda while on the floor.
<snip>
It's a constant source of amazement to me that dancers, not tourists,
the cleaners, or someone who stumbled into the place by mistake, but
dancers! - will stand in a group of 4 or 5 on a dance floor and hold a
$^%*(* discussion while people dance around them. Perhaps they are
urgently discussing the finer points of milonga etiquette?
cheers
rde
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:17:35 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
> It's a constant source of amazement to me that dancers,
> not tourists, the cleaners, or someone who stumbled into
the place by mistake, but dancers! - will stand in a group
of 4 or 5 on a dance floor and hold a $^%*(* discussion
while people dance around them. Perhaps they are urgently
discussing the finer points of milonga etiquette?
>
How's this for a solution - ask them to move the
conversation off of the floor.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 10:05:32 +1100
From: Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>
>
> How's this for a solution - ask them to move the
> conversation off of the floor.
>
>
Makes good sense to me. How many times do you think I need to keep
doing that before it gets through to them?
cheers
rde
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:29:28 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-L@mit.edu
At the milongas I have, I do just that....and repeatedly ask, at the
milonga and in my periodic e-mails, that folks respect the line of
dance, keep the "fancy stuff" in the corners or the middle and take the
teaching somewhere else entirely. I got/get a fair amount of abuse and
sarcasm, but the behavior is getting better. The confusing part for
me, is that the "offenders" are often experienced people who complain
to me when "the rules" are not being followed.....and, if I have to be
scrupulously honest, there are times when I am not as careful as I
should be either. I think it is actually a vicious cycle - experienced
people get annoyed at the new people so they dance around them, the new
folks look at the experienced folks careening around the dance floor so
they think it's okay, they start doing it, the experienced folks get
more annoyed, and so on, and so on, and so on.....
Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
> It's a constant source of amazement to me that dancers,
> not tourists, the cleaners, or someone who stumbled into
the place by mistake, but dancers! - will stand in a group
of 4 or 5 on a dance floor and hold a $^%*(* discussion
while people dance around them. Perhaps they are urgently
discussing the finer points of milonga etiquette?
>
How's this for a solution - ask them to move the
conversation off of the floor.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social
dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
___________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:01:36 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Roger <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > How's this for a solution - ask them to move the
> > conversation off of the floor.
> >
> >
> Makes good sense to me. How many times do you think I
> need to keep doing that before it gets through to them?
It only takes me once. But if you have problems, call
management. Or get others to join in. Peer pressure can
work wonders.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:43:03 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643C8E@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
>>From what I observed in BsAs, the talking between songs is much more protracted than in other places I have danced (i.e. Australia). I was amazed that the talking went on for what felt like a full minute into the song and in the crowded BsAs context it is quite difficult to start dancing until everyone is sorted out and moving on the floor, at least unless it is very early or very late in the night. I don't think this was a foreign phenomenon as I heard foreigners complaining about the starts of the songs being 'wasted', whereas the chatty Argentinians seem to revel in the opportunity for small talk. I guess the difference is there is much more of a feeling of cohesion between leaders in most BsAs milongas compared to back home so when the dancing did start it was like there was some secret choreography whereby everyone got off in synchronisation. Maybe people talking in the middle of the floor here is a bit more jarring because we don't have the same strong floor craft. Bu!
t I am surprised Roger is complaining, he is one of the best leaders we have and seems to slip around the outside of any obstacles with no visible effort :-).
Victor Bennetts
>
>
> How's this for a solution - ask them to move the
> conversation off of the floor.
>
>
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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 21:09:57 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini,
I've done it at my own milongas but would feel uncomfortable doing it
at other milongas. As for doing it in Buenos Aires - forget it! I'm so
far down the pecking order, I wouldn't say a word :-).
Keith, HK
On Mon Jan 14 6:17 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>
>> It's a constant source of amazement to me that dancers,
>> not tourists, the cleaners, or someone who stumbled into
>the place by mistake, but dancers! - will stand in a group
>of 4 or 5 on a dance floor and hold a $^%*(* discussion
>while people dance around them. Perhaps they are urgently
>discussing the finer points of milonga etiquette?
>>
>
>How's this for a solution - ask them to move the
>conversation off of the floor.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 00:40:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> I've done it at my own milongas but would feel
> uncomfortable doing it
> at other milongas. As for doing it in Buenos Aires -
> forget it! I'm so
> far down the pecking order, I wouldn't say a word :-).
>
> Keith, HK
I can understand your reluctance, Keith, but I'm a big
believer in having community participation. It could also
be that the chatters are simply unaware of their effect on
the floor but would happily move it off of the floor.
That's usually the case. Don't know until it's asked.
If it's a continued problem, then it's the organizer's job
to handle it, who should have the b---s to take care of it.
BsAs would be a different story for various reasons.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:46:46 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
I think there is nothing wrong with technically identifying things - but he
(and his fellows( missed some critical points in the technique - without
them they are doomed to dance tango imitation.
And no, I will not reveal those points here, I am tired of repeating it.
But still, if someone is curious, there are very important clues here:
www.tangoandchaos.org
There are no magic formulas, one will understand the important things only
if it ready to understand.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:30 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> There is an interview with Gustavo Naveira in which he says it used to
> be about the music; now it's about the dance.
I'm glad he's finally come out and stated his belief. It'll help people
appreciate why his kind of teaching is so detrimental to those for whom
the music is the foundation of the dance.
> He is missing the essence of tango.
For me, his most revealing comment is:
At a certain moment, there arose the need to technically identify every
single thing done in dancing
There arose that need in him, evidently. But goodness only knows where he
got the notion that anyone else needs their rainbows unweaving...
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:10:09 -0500
From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers.pierola@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
<dfa4cf020801141710n1786083fp2769650629050692@mail.gmail.com>
When I was in Buenos Aires in October, I took Gustavo's classes. The piece
that stuck out most to me was something he said about the heart vs. the
head. Paraphrasing a translation of what I remember, "What comes from only
the head alone is worth nothing...only things that come from the heart have
any value."
On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 00:30 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > There is an interview with Gustavo Naveira in which he says it used to
> > be about the music; now it's about the dance.
>
> I'm glad he's finally come out and stated his belief. It'll help people
> appreciate why his kind of teaching is so detrimental to those for whom
> the music is the foundation of the dance.
>
> > He is missing the essence of tango.
>
> For me, his most revealing comment is:
>
> At a certain moment, there arose the need to technically identify every
> single thing done in dancing
>
> There arose that need in him, evidently. But goodness only knows where he
> got the notion that anyone else needs their rainbows unweaving...
>
> --
> Chris
>
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 02:42 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Gustavo ... "What comes from only the head alone is worth nothing...
> only things that come from the heart have any value."
He gave an excellent exhibition of that at our milonga the other week. His
lesson consisted of prescribed sequences - the same giro, sacada, change
of direction type stuff we've seen countless times before - which the
students were to repeat these over and over, whether the music called for
it or not. This Gustavo interspersed with demos and lecturettes explaining
exactly why the guy's torso turned through this angle while the girl took
that number of steps etc.
I watched with dismay as the standard of dancing steadily deteriorated.
The struggle to get bodies at the required angles and feet in "the right
place" left no hope at all for anything that really mattered. In the hands
of even normally good leaders, the girls were suffering torture. Feeling
for partner? Feeling for the music? Feeling for the ronda? Not a chance in
hell. By the end of the lesson there wasn't a single couple left doing
anything one could remotely call dancing.
Where in all of that were the "things that come from the heart"?
I started the music with Malerba's Remembranzas. An hour later the ordeal
was largely forgotten and almost everyone was back to dancing.
--
Chris
PS Alfredo De Angelis "La Cumparsita":
https://youtube.com/watch?v=jjPp6CZ2vVo (video 3m07s)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 19:09:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
So, Chris, did you tell Gustavo about the problems that you
saw in the class and asked him about his methodology?
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> I watched with dismay as the standard of dancing steadily
> deteriorated. The struggle to get bodies at the required
angles and feet in "the right place" left no hope at all
for anything that really mattered. In the hands of even
normally good leaders, the girls were suffering torture.
Feeling for partner? Feeling for the music? Feeling for the
> ronda? Not a chance in hell. By the end of the lesson
there wasn't a single couple left doing anything one could
remotely call dancing.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:36:25 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Chris,
It's called learning to dance. And, yes, Gustavo's classes are serious and often difficult.
But we've been through all this before - if a teacher's classes are too difficult for some
students, they should find an easier class. And, if all students can immediately do what
the teacher is teaching, well he isn't teaching very much. And if any teacher tells his
students that learning Tango is easy, they should find another teacher. It's a teacher's
job to push and challenge his students, not pander to them. Well, that's my opinion.
Personally, when I attend classes, I don't go for fun - I go to work and I go to learn.
Keith, HK
On Tue Jan 15 10:42 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>> Gustavo ... "What comes from only the head alone is worth nothing...
>> only things that come from the heart have any value."
>
>He gave an excellent exhibition of that at our milonga the other week. His
>lesson consisted of prescribed sequences - the same giro, sacada, change
>of direction type stuff we've seen countless times before - which the
>students were to repeat these over and over, whether the music called for
>it or not. This Gustavo interspersed with demos and lecturettes explaining
>exactly why the guy's torso turned through this angle while the girl took
>that number of steps etc.
>
>I watched with dismay as the standard of dancing steadily deteriorated.
>The struggle to get bodies at the required angles and feet in "the right
>place" left no hope at all for anything that really mattered. In the hands
>of even normally good leaders, the girls were suffering torture. Feeling
>for partner? Feeling for the music? Feeling for the ronda? Not a chance in
>hell. By the end of the lesson there wasn't a single couple left doing
>anything one could remotely call dancing.
>
>Where in all of that were the "things that come from the heart"?
>
>I started the music with Malerba's Remembranzas. An hour later the ordeal
>was largely forgotten and almost everyone was back to dancing.
>
>--
>Chris
>
>PS Alfredo De Angelis "La Cumparsita":
> https://youtube.com/watch\?v=jjPp6CZ2vVo (video 3m07s)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:21:30 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
I have seen similar picture countless times.
And it is not because teaching technique is wrong.
Wrong is when one teaches wrong technique.
What is wrong technique? This is when someone teaches a combination in order
to show technique. The real technique is nothing more than posture, embrace,
walking and pivots. If you can lead walking and pivots, you can lead
everything. But the couple needs proper posture and embrace to walk and
pivot. And, the other way too - to keep the posture and the embrace correct,
the walking and the pivots must be properly executed too. All these things
are not possible to separate. There is no fixed geometry, no need for some
kind of high level structure, etc.
I can recommend two sources of real, tango-improving technique:
One is the site www.tangoandchaos.org, the other are the videos from
Fernanda Ghi and Guillermo Merlo - "Follower's technique" and "Salon Tango
Technique". They are true gems in a see of stupid, combination oriented
videos.
If you combine the two sources, you will have enough information of what
good AT technique is. It is very simple, once you get it. You may need a
good teacher to help you . . . Or, if you are close enough to these ideas,
you will find them very fascinating.
But, the most americans and europeans are so afraid of the fact, that the
follower should be PASSIVE. Of course, not fully passive (to manage the free
leg mainly), but a follower must not input energy into the couple, only
consume it. The leader produces the energy, the follower consumes it. No
matter the kind of embrace, no matter if it is social dance or not. The
quality of movement is way higher this way. And the proper technique teaches
how to enable and improve this process. Not combinations at all, they are
not important - because they are easy to do once the fundament is in place.
Fernanda says to the followers: "Make your body responsive". See? Not "Be
responsive". Not your mind should respond. It is the body that responds to
the influence of mechanical action, taken by the lead.
Whatever, enough free internet lessons. People are used to think that if
something is free, it is worth nothing.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:38:13 -0800
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
>>From a previous post:
>I can recommend two sources of real, tango-improving technique:
my 2 cents:
Juan Carlos Martinez and Nora Witanowsky are very real to me when dancing tango:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Lm7UEhN-I&NR=1
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:56:20 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Yes, they are.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:36:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
--- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:
>> What is wrong technique? This is when someone teaches a
> combination in order to show technique. The real
technique is nothing more than posture, embrace,
> walking and pivots.
Krasimir,
I agree with you about real technique, but it takes people
different ways of learning it. Combinations can be a great
way for people to practice and analyze their technique. A
good combination will make people more aware of when their
posture is bad or when their embrace is too tight, etc. It
should make it self-evident to the dancers when their
technique isn't good.
There are times when subtleties don't work and you have to
exaggerate the movement for people to see and understand
it. That all depends on the person.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 10:52:02 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
--- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:
>> What is wrong technique? This is when someone teaches a
> combination in order to show technique. The real
technique is nothing more than posture, embrace,
> walking and pivots.
But "posture, embrace, walking and pivots" alone do not make a dance!
Combinations created skillfully, introduce a student to the world of dance,
and even how to apply technique in the practical situation.
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:07:40 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Yes, of course it is like that.
But, it is extremely important to do these combination with the proper
technique, otherwise it is a pain to watch people torture each other trying
to execute something.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:24:20 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
In theory, yes. In reality, no.
Most people do not understand they do things that are disastrous both
aesthetically and technically. One of the great features in this dance (and
maybe some others) is that they coincide - or even, that aesthetics comes
>from the correct technique. Not the other way around. In other words, form
follows function. So when people try to learn a combination, they try to
repeat the form, and have no idea how it is ticking, what the function (the
technique) is. Even if they suspect something is not correct, they'll need
many years to discover it themselves. It is the job of a qualified teacher
to explain where do the problems come from. And in 99% of the cases, it is
>from improper walking, pivot and posture technique (leading and/or
following). I do not separate these basic things. You cannot have correct
posture for more than a short second, if the walking is incorrect, because
the next bad step will spoil the posture. And the other way, you can't walk
properly, if you use bad posture. Same with the pivot. So these things are
inseparable, and this is how I teach them. ALWAYS in couples, NEVER
individually.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:38:18 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643CE3@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Teach always in couples? That is partly true in my view. If I ever go to a class and it starts with the teacher telling all the women to go to one side of the room and all the men on the other (sound familiar?), my heart sinks. At that point I am getting ready to walk out. If they start counting out from one to eight then I am changing my shoes and heading for the door :-). But there is a place for individual work. If a class starts with the teacher leading everyone in a walking exercise then I start grinning. If the exercise gets more complex with pivots and embellishments added in and they do it more than for a token couple of minutes I start to really feel like a dancer, warmed up and ready for my partner.
OK, so combinations are a necessary evil, because we all need examples to learn from, but I agree with Krasimir that if you teach the combination without correcting basic technique you are doing people a major disservice. For instance, it is interesting how if you see people doing combinations in class out of time to the music you will also find their social dancing is all disconnected from the music. We could call this 'Victor's Law', which has a nice ring to it :-), but I have to admit I got it from my first teacher, who thinks pretty deeply about these sorts of things.
Victor Bennetts
>Krasimir Stoyanov>In theory, yes. In reality, no.
>Most people do not understand they do things that are disastrous both
aesthetically and technically. One of the great features in this dance (and
>maybe some others) is that they coincide - or even, that aesthetics comes
>>from the correct technique. Not the other way around. In other words, form
>follows function. So when people try to learn a combination, they try to
>repeat the form, and have no idea how it is ticking, what the function (the
>technique) is. Even if they suspect something is not correct, they'll need
>many years to discover it themselves. It is the job of a qualified teacher
>to explain where do the problems come from. And in 99% of the cases, it is
>>from improper walking, pivot and posture technique (leading and/or
following). I do not separate these basic things. You cannot have correct
>posture for more than a short second, if the walking is incorrect, because
>the next bad step will spoil the posture. And the other way, you can't walk
>properly, if you use bad posture. Same with the pivot. So these things are
>inseparable, and this is how I teach them. ALWAYS in couples, NEVER
individually.
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Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 23:17:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
--- Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com> wrote:
> Teach always in couples? That is partly true in my view.
> If I ever go to a class and it starts with the teacher
> telling all the women to go to one side of the room and
> all the men on the other (sound familiar?), my heart
> sinks. At that point I am getting ready to walk out. If
> they start counting out from one to eight then I am
> changing my shoes and heading for the door :-). But there
> is a place for individual work. If a class starts with
> the teacher leading everyone in a walking exercise then I
> start grinning.
The method of having men & ladies separate to learn a
choreography can work with really good instructors. One
couple that uses that approach very successfully is Colette
Hebert & Richard Council. It always surprises me how well
people are dancing a complex choreography by the end of
their class without much anticipation. Part of their
success, I believe, is that they repeat the sequence over
and over and over again so that they separate out the
learning process. First the choreography and then the
technique. When they put people together, they work on the
communication skills. But by keeping people apart for as
long as they do, they actually force people to do the
drills that they should be doing on their own anyway. It
makes people be aware of their own bodies. When people
have their bodies primed, then the communication in both
ways becomes a lot easier.
I believe the flaw committed by other teachers who may use
that method is that they only concentrate on the
choreography part. They don't give people enough time to
work on the technique.
Do they retain the sequence after the workshop? Perhaps
not, but that's not the point. The point is for students
to work on their technique. And the milongas after the
workshops are fine. No one going wild with a sequence
they've just learned, though I do see bits of the sequence
appear. But they are done okay.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 04:20:09 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Trini is correct. All teachers will use sequences of steps in their classes - even simple walking is a sequence. But
students who complain about difficult sequences that they cannot master are missing the point of the class.
The point of most classes is not to learn a sequence of steps but to learn how to dance. Students who go to a
class ONLY to learn a sequence are wasting their time and money - their friends can show them the sequence
later or they can learn sequences from YouTube.
Students should attend classes and privates to learn how to dance. If they learn a cool sequence at the same
time - that's a bonus. When you can actually dance, sequences will come naturally and learning new sequences
is oh-so-easy.
On Thu Jan 17 15:17 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>Do they retain the sequence after the workshop? Perhaps
>not, but that's not the point. The point is for students
>to work on their technique.
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:25:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Let?s assume that, based on a previous thread, the
?successful? teacher is the one who learns complicated
coreography so that they can have ?interesting? things
to keep the attention of leaders and maintain a large
class or community.
That is, a successful teacher is one who maintains a
large class.
Given that, basing this discussion on coreography is
fine. And, following that, all of your discussions on
whether leaders and followers should be together or
seperated is natural. Go team!
---
However, in my opinion, a good teacher teaches
technique first and coreography as a side-effect.
Given that, there are definite reasons for leaders to
have the followers in front of them or not. Even
further, there are definite reasons for leaders to be
in contact with the follower who is in front of them.
As one example, a leader advances much faster by
learning followers technique (and other techniques ...
remember, this is just one example) than by getting
their head overloaded with steps or coreo.
Now, if we create a long list of techniques to base a
class on, then, we could have a discussion on whether
leaders should be seperated from the followers, etc.
I just wanted to point out that you are discussing
where a leader should be in a class based on a class
being based on coreo. That is only one type of class.
Again, to be clear, I see definition evolving out of
this thread, with nice detail. However, it only
pertains to a certain type of teaching. Different
teaching styles require different finite details.
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:53 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> It's called learning to dance.
No Keith, it's called not learning to dance.
The regular students shouldn't have to "find an easier class" just because
the visiting so-called teacher is pushing his way too hard material on the
intermediate class he's been booked for. It is up to the teacher to find a
class that will put up with such abuse if he can, else find another job.
No other field of education tolerates such, and nor should tango.
Krasimir wrote:
> The real technique is nothing more than posture, embrace,
> walking and pivots.
Aye, and there's the rub for the sequence peddlers.
--
Chris
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:05 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> in my opinion, a good teacher teaches technique first and coreography as
> a side-effect.
I suggest a good teacher teaches technique first and improvisation as a
side-effect. Choreography is no part of it.
It's sad to read that Tango USA still suffers from this:
> The method of having men & ladies separate to learn a choreography can
> work with really good instructors. ... It always surprises me how well
> people are dancing a complex choreography by the end of their class
> without much anticipation. Part of their success, I believe, is that
> they repeat the sequence over and over and over again ...
Good teachers years ago discovered that rote-learning of sequences
degrades technique, handicaps improvisation...
... and sabotages the beginner's understanding of the dance:
PHOEBE: So um, are you the professional guitar player?
(CHRISSIE HYNDE): Yeah. I'm Stephanie.
PHOEBE: ... So, um, so um, how many chords do you know?
(CHRISSIE): All of them.
PHOEBE: Oh yeah, so you know D?
(CHRISSIE): Yeah.
PHOEBE: Ok, do you know A minor?
(CHRISSIE): Yeah.
PHOEBE: Ok, do you know how to go from D to A minor?
--
Chris
PS Osvaldo Fresedo and Ricardo Ruiz - Buscandote
https://youtube.com/watch?v=vp9RFSQzz2A (video 2m02s)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 14:27:27 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Funny, the predominant method of teaching of Argentine
instructors seems based on choreography. And we all agree
that the Argentines have the best tango dancers.
Gosh, I think the evidence is there that sequences do work.
But it's also important to apply it when appropriately.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > in my opinion, a good teacher teaches technique first
> and coreography as
> > a side-effect.
>
> I suggest a good teacher teaches technique first and
> improvisation as a
> side-effect. Choreography is no part of it.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:31:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" wrote:
> Funny, the predominant method of teaching of
> Argentine instructors seems based on choreography.
Here's an example to the contrary:
Funny, the first time I taught in a large venue
(before the biggest milonga in town with a lot of
advanced dancers sitting there waiting for the
milonga), there were about 70 students.
I taught using a very simple pattern. I kept stopping
the class every minute, showed an improvement to
technique and started the music, again. I did that
over and over, again. Dance, stop, tweek technique,
dance, stop, teach technique, etc. You could hear a
pin drop and you could see mass improvement right
through the hour.
There was a good dancer from BsAs watching. She said
to my partner, "That's the most I've ever seen someone
in the US teach like in BsAs.". Now, it's not about
the complement. We've all had ours. But, I was there
for one reason ... to focus heavily on fixing basic
technique. Things like having the leader keep his
left foot in (One of the biggest problems out there
that teachers really don't fix in most classes!) and
having the follower take a smaller back step than all
those teachers out there LOVE to teach so that they
wouldn't seperate from their young leaders. Tweeking
basic technique. Period!
It's only one example. But, that statement by that
Argentine woman told me that, in BsAs, they teach
technique!
Sure doesn't seem to be based on choreo to me! :o)
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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:05:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
> There was a good dancer from BsAs watching. She said
> to my partner, "That's the most I've ever seen someone
> in the US teach like in BsAs.".
Her comment, tangopeer, could have meant that you taught
technique and could have been irrelevant to whether you
used a choreography or not. It would have been nice to
know more about what she meant.
The interesting question to me isn't whether using
choreography is good or bad. What interests me is why some
teachers are able to use complex sequences successfully
while others are not. Comments?
Trini
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:50:03 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Trini:
"What interests me is why some
teachers are able to use complex sequences successfully
while others are not.."
Attracted by "Contact improvisation" term I've made a bold visit to a Modern
Dance class for "to-be-professional" dancers. It turned out that contact
improvisation is considered so complex, that it is taught only to selected
advanced members of the group. So that class was about choreography.
The instructor, and director at the same time, auditing new dancers for his
show, was giving sequences and other had to repeat them. Each sequence
contained about 5 figures as I guessed. It was so hard for me, that I was
hardly able just to mimic a general line. He has shown them no more than 2
times. And they did it ! These trained-since-babyhood girls and boys.
It seems to me that they were so highly trained in technique, figures and
choreography, they had well developed "movement memory", that some variation
and specific choreography of this "ballet" was not of difficulty for them at
all. The emphasis was on who does it better. Theatrically.
I think a choreography lesson works the best when people are able easy to
execute any small part of it and have developed "movement" memory. It may be
useful to show the general line of the dance, how elements and figures work
together. Putting them into unusual combinations develops inventiveness and
fantasy.
I remember myself being a beginner I visited lessons of one teacher which
were based on choreography only. I would say it was useless except that I
have learned how to distinguish small parts in a complex dance and developed
"movement memory" by observing movements, so to speak "movement logic". That
in turn greatly helped me when I have being learning tango from video tapes.
Igor Polk
PS Again, all things can be done right or wrong..
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:52 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> the predominant method of teaching of Argentine
> instructors seems based on choreography. And we all agree
> that the Argentines have the best tango dancers.
The grift in a nutshell.
Trini, consider two possible reasons for a snake oil salesman's fine health:
1 He takes snake oil.
2 He does not take snake oil.
Note: if he didn't claim 1 he /wouldn't/ /be/ a snake oil salesman.
--
Chris
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:00:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
> Trini wrote:
> The interesting question to me isn't whether using
> choreography is good or bad. What interests me is
> why some teachers are able to use complex sequences
> successfully while others are not. Comments?
Lets break it down. Someone build on this and discard
anything that doesn't make sense ...
Some teachers teach complex patterns and :
A1. do it in such a way as to keep the attention of a
large number of leaders.
A2. don't do it in such a way as to keep the attention
of a large number of leaders.
B1. teach the choreo well.
B2. don't teach the choreo well.
C1. teach technique well.
C2. don't teach technique well.
( A and B really are different.) I don't know what
combinations I am missing. But, using logic (I am an
engineer), that's how I would approach the subject ...
expanding on those categories and being broadminded
about moving forward. Anyway, the original question
was ...
why some teachers are able to use complex sequences
successfully while others are not.
I assume that you mean "successful at teaching
technique, form, etc.
Let me suggest that some teachers "are not" successful
at teaching technique because:
1. They are interested in keeping a large class. And,
if they have a large class based on keeping the
leaders happy with fun, community, competition, etc.
Then, why should they try harder to teach technique?
I mean, if Joe, Sam, Tony, Bob, Eddy, Carl, Vivek,
Carlos, Antonio, and more, keep coming to class
because they think the women like them because they
get the pattern better than the next guy, for example,
then, why change your model?
I know of teachers who have trades with teachers in
other cities so that they can advertise each other and
teach in each other's cities. This makes them
"nationally known teachers". Oh, boy! And, what are
they going to take on the road? Probably their
interesting way of teaching choreo. You can't argue
it. We've all seen it!
My point is there's a great example of "nationally
known" teachers who are very well liked because people
learn "cool" patterns and have fun. Are they teaching
technique? Yes. Are they really good at teaching
technique? From what I've seen, not all of them.
=====
Here's another example:
I don't like to use teacher's names. But, when one of
the most famous teachers/dancers in tango used to come
to town to teach workshops, some people would complain
and say that he was a really bad teacher.
That would always amaze me, because what I would see
is that he would turn his left foot out, or he would
place one of his feet, constantly, near his follower's
foot rather than being sloppy and placing it 10" away
one time or 2" away the next.
My point is that that teacher was teaching ME how to
keep his follower balanced. I took those lessons into
MY classes. I suppose other teachers memorized the
patterns and took those into THEIR classes.
We're all different. That's why some people are plus
or minus on different scales.
Ugh! I think I just wrote too much!
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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:25:10 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
When you get to a certain level of dance where you are seeing a lot of
basic building blocks and patterns of steps over and over again, what
you get out of lessons is very different.
I am happy with any lesson, even a lesson teaching choreography, if I
take away just one important insight or mechanical improvement or style
point about my dance, posture, balance, form, from the instructors.
I don't expect to ever repeat the lesson choreography because that's a
lead's issue. If they don't lead it, I can't follow it. If I even try
to think about some choreography I learned somewhere sometime I lose my
ability to listen and respond to what the leader is actually leading.
Tango For Her wrote:
>
> My point is that that teacher was teaching ME how to
> keep his follower balanced. I took those lessons into
> MY classes. I suppose other teachers memorized the
> patterns and took those into THEIR classes.
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
https://arborlaw.com
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:47:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
--- Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net> wrote:
> I am happy with any lesson, even a lesson teaching
> choreography, if I
> take away just one important insight or mechanical
> improvement or style
> point about my dance, posture, balance, form, from
> the instructors.
>
> I don't expect to ever repeat the lesson
> choreography because that's a
> lead's issue. If they don't lead it, I can't follow
> it. If I even try
> to think about some choreography I learned somewhere
> sometime I lose my
> ability to listen and respond to what the leader is
> actually leading.
>
Spoken as a true follower. :o) I think that classes
get leader's heads so wrapped up in remembering "which
foot did the teacher use?" that they aren't aware that
thinking about technique, like a follower, is the best
way to advance.
An example:
Suppose a step in the choreography requires the leader
to be standing right in front of his follower on his
right foot and step outside to her left with his left
foot.
Suppose most of the leaders are wrapped up in
remembering the pattern and showing off. (Like that's
any news!)
Suppose one leader notices that the teacher, a woman,
(I love learning from world-class woman teachers
because I like to watch their form.) kept her knees
and feet together, pivots, then straightens her knee
as she goes into the front-step.
Which leader is learning something that they can use
throughout their dance?
You see, the teacher didn't stop and say, "keep your
feet and knees together, pivot, ....". She just
talked about the pattern.
Now, the guy who is picking up on technique
(followers' technique) is going to create a more
beautifully balanced dance for his follower ... in my
honest opinion. So, with allllll those teachers out
there teaching step, step, step, step, why not throw
in more comments about leaders using followers'
technique?
I'm lucky. I picked it up simply because, again, in
my own opinion, my teacher was a woman who moved like
an angel. She didn't tell me to do those things all
the time. But, I couldn't stop noticing! It seemed
pretty different to want to move like a woman. But,
MAN, am I glad she was my teacher!
Leaders, in general, are not being taught followers'
technique. When teachers give classes on follower's
technique, how many men come? Point. Set. Match!
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:12:26 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
And I see evidence, that the sequences do NOT work.
Nobody dances like argentinian here, I think it is the same in most places
in the world.
---- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:15 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> the sequences do NOT work. Nobody dances like argentinian here
Where is here, Krasimir?
> I think it is the same in most places in the world.
"And see, you go to Europe, most of these people dance the way we do ..."
Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw, 2001
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:06:37 +0200
From: Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"
No contradiction here - Fabian Salas is an awful dancer.
> "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people dance the way we do ..."
>
> Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw, 2001
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 07:50:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: tango-l@mit.edu
First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch.
Second, when he is in town, I pay very close
attention, because I learn a lot from his technique.
Third, it's been quite a few years. Is his partner's
name Carolina? Anyway, she is a phenominal dancer AND
she is enabled to do so much because Fabian's lead is
impeccable. That woman is balanced with 100% security
because of her great leader!
Fourth, he can, probably, dance better than any of us
writing on here. So, why soil his name like that?
I know ... freedom of speech, etc ... but, what about
"do unto others as you would have them do to you."?
--- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:
> No contradiction here - Fabian Salas is an awful
> dancer.
>
> > "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people
> dance the way we do ..."
> >
> > Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw,
> 2001
>
>
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 18:10:42 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances like tipical european or
american pseudo-tango dancer.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
> First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch.
>
> Second, when he is in town, I pay very close
> attention, because I learn a lot from his technique.
>
> Third, it's been quite a few years. Is his partner's
> name Carolina? Anyway, she is a phenominal dancer AND
> she is enabled to do so much because Fabian's lead is
> impeccable. That woman is balanced with 100% security
> because of her great leader!
>
> Fourth, he can, probably, dance better than any of us
> writing on here. So, why soil his name like that?
>
> I know ... freedom of speech, etc ... but, what about
> "do unto others as you would have them do to you."?
>
>
>
> --- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:
>
>> No contradiction here - Fabian Salas is an awful
>> dancer.
>>
>> > "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people
>> dance the way we do ..."
>> >
>> > Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw,
>> 2001
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:58:17 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 06:10:42PM +0200, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote:
> He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances like tipical european or
> american pseudo-tango dancer.
>
Sweeping generalisations aside, I totally agree with Krasimir.
I think we would all dance better if we shaved our underarms, put on trousers rather then lederhosen, wore shoes not clogs and between tandas stopped inhaling that "Big Mac and fries" before having a quick siesta.
I will also try to put down my cup of tea, I know how distracting those splashes can be.
:)
'Mash
London, UK
"Tango, like running with rubber scissors."
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:48:03 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances
To: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch.
Sorry, tango for her, but I can't see anything "top notch" about Fabian.
Maybe the fact that he is an ex-lawyer gone full time tango dancer "because
there is more money in tango" impresses you. Having said that, he is still a
lot nicer than Carolina...
