5698  Milonga, etc.

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 01:52:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60547.65.93.193.148.1249192347.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

It's true that, post-Piazzolla, a thinking has crept in that the music and
the dance are not the same thing.

This thinking and retro-view recitation does not make it so.

The dance and the music were integral. Always - until the 1950's.

The people who created it all didn't sit and listen to vals. They danced it.

They didn't sit and listen to milonga. They danced it.

They danced their little asses off. Which is why we have a form. (Any
spectators were just that and not qualified to explain "it").

All the immigrant threads of musical/dance heritage got woven together and
something started to emerge.

All the time dancing.

When the bandoneon showed-up, a new circumstance was created.

The bandoneon players just couldn't play as fast as the other musicians.
It was a complicated little box that took a lot of time to master and
integrate.

In a spirit of collegiality, the other musicians slowed-down to let them
play as well.

Things went from 2/4 and 3/4 to 4/4 sometimes for them.

Tango was born.

Everybody all the time dancing.

Remember: there are no singers/lyrics until 40 or 50 years later (from the
beginnings). It's all music for dancing.

It's laughable to say that milonga for dancing only came to the fore in
the 1930's.

Well - it's at least incorrect to say that.

The cynically rhetorical question, "Was I there?" is beneath me to answer.

Let's just say I've done my research.

And haven't been fooled by latter-day revisionists (who don't seem to be
dancers or musicians, by the way).

Saying that milonga as we know it came along in the 1930's is so untrue,
it should never be repeated.

2/4 is NOT 4/4.

When Piazzolla called something "Milonga" - it was just a word he liked.

Milonga Del Angel is not a milonga in this, the last, or any other
century. It's a beautiful Piazzolla tango.

Tango is the youngest of the genius children given birth by the Rio De La
Plata.

Milonga as we know it is a parent.

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 02:21:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<61889.65.93.193.148.1249194100.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved when I see people doing
tango moves while trying to dance milonga.

I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make something happen
that just isn't natural.

And I feel sorry for the men who just don't get it.

1-2/2-2

Is not at all the same as

1 2 3 4

When will teachers show the difference?

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 03:07:04 -0400
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
Cc: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>

Dear Keith,

Can you explain that 1-2/2-2 or make an audio and post it?

Many thanks!

Steve

Keith Elshaw wrote:

> Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved when I see people doing
> tango moves while trying to dance milonga.
>
> I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make something happen
> that just isn't natural.
>
> And I feel sorry for the men who just don't get it.
>
> 1-2/2-2
>
> Is not at all the same as
>
> 1 2 3 4
>
> When will teachers show the difference?
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 01:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu

> From: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>
>
> They didn't sit and listen to milonga. They danced it.
>
> They danced their little asses off. Which is why we have a form. >
>
> It's laughable to say that milonga for dancing only came to the fore in
> the 1930's.
>

Sebasti?n Piana doesn't seem to agree.
?
https://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/cronicas/entrevista_piana.asp?
?
Excerpt:
?
"Can we talk of a "Piana's Revolution" as far as milonga is concerned?
?
It is, simply, the change from a milonga -which was regarded as belonging
to the south and the Pampas, without dance or danced in privacy, and dug
by gauchos and payadores-, to the milonga porte?a, owed to Maffia and to me."
?
Just in case there's anyone out there who doesn't know; Sebasti?n Piana
wrote his first milonga porte?a in 1932.
?
Before the 1930s, it doesn't sound to me?like anyone was "dancing their little
asses off" to milonga music. And there are plenty of other sources to support
that conclusion.
?
Perhaps Keith can provide sources for his opinion.
?
Jack

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 18:51:33 +1000
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 03:07 -0400, Steve Littler wrote:

> Dear Keith,
>
> Can you explain that 1-2/2-2 or make an audio and post it?

Joaquin Amenabar, when explaining the difference between Tango and
Milonga, throws away the 4/4 - 2/4 difference, because it really isn't
relevant.

Milonga music has a secondary rythm overlying the basic 2-beat pattern.

A standard 2/4 beat is like this:

| ' | ' | ' | '

Where the "|" is an accented beat, and the "'" is an unaccented beat.

The Milonga rhythm is a four-beat pattern that lines up to the basic 2/4
like this:

Plain 2/4
| ' | ' | ' | '
| '| ' | '| '
Milonga

Here's a sample of the Milonga Rhythm that I have recorded using claves:
https://www.4shared.com/file/122343713/f2d8aff9/MilongaRhythm.html

You see that the first unaccented beat in the block of four beats is
delayed, so that instead of having equal amounts of time on either side
(50/50), it is closer to the second accented beat (75/25).

Joaquin states that "tango" music before the 20th century all used this
rhythmic pattern, and it was the loss of this pattern (and indeed the
loss of any fixed rhythmic pattern over the basic four-beat timing) that
defines tango music and makes it what it is. Basically, it was the
introduction of the freedom of classical music into dance music.

So basically, there was tango music, which then became tango music and
milonga music, but the milonga music is closer to what was earlier known
as tango music.

Does that make it clearer?

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 11:47:05 +0000
From: Laura V <laura@lavatop.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc. + an introduction
To: tango-l@mit.edu

According to this article by Christine Denniston, what happened to
milonga in the 1930s was a stylistic break from the musical form of
Milonga Surena or Campera: "...the folk song Milonga, has a neutral,
almost tuneless tune, with the lyrics chanted over a strict structure of
rhythm and chords". However, she says there is evidence to suggest that
this earlier form was danced to and after all, the word milonga evolved
into meaning a place where dancing happens.

In the article, Christine claims that in 1932, Homero Manzi and
Sebastian Piana broke from the musical tradition of the folk milonga
with the song Milonga Sentimental, forming the basis of the milonga
dance tunes we recognize today.

https://www.totaltango.com/acatalog/tango_milonga_vals_92.html

As this is my first post to the list, I'll just say hello - I'm from
Reykjav?k, Iceland, dancing tango 5 years now and also have also been
dj-ing the past couple of years.

Best Regards,
Laura

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 12:48:51 -0400
From: "David" <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Keith,

While I normally agree with most of your posts, have you considered the
possibility that some of these people who you very sorry for, might be
experiencing something that you don't get? What is "natural", often depends
on which person we are talking about.

David

-----Original Message-----

From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Yes, you may imagine me being slightly peeved when I see people doing tango
moves while trying to dance milonga.

I feel sorry for the women being pushed around to make something happen that
just isn't natural.

And I feel sorry for the men who just don't get it.

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 02:34:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ming Mar <ming_mar@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.
To: tango-l@mit.edu


Keith writes:

>Remember: there are no singers/lyrics until 40 or 50 years
>later (from the beginnings).

The earliest known tango is "Dame la lata" by Juan Perez.
It was written around 1880 or in the 1880's. It had
lyrics. According to your assertion, tango music existed
in 1840 and nobody ever sang to tango music until 1880. Do
you really think that is the case?

Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga, etc.

>
> Keith writes:
>>Remember: there are no singers/lyrics until 40 or 50 years
>>later (from the beginnings).
>
> The earliest known tango is "Dame la lata" by Juan Perez.
> It was written around 1880 or in the 1880's. It had
> lyrics. According to your assertion, tango music existed
> in 1840 and nobody ever sang to tango music until 1880. Do
> you really think that is the case?
>
>
>
>

How safe is your data? Find out more about the issues at Tiscali Security Centre - https://www.tiscali.co.uk/security