4793 Milonga Reviews
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 17:56:34 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I thought the Villa Malcolm evenings were practicas. Floorcraft and dancing and connection standards would understandably be poor as compared to a milonga... J
don't get me started on the music because it didn't seem to be connected in any > way to what people were dancing. It didn't really matter while they were playing Neo Tango but > when they started to murder some beautiful Golden Age Tango, it became almost too much to bear. > And, finally, there was absolutely no sign of the elegance, style, serenity or beauty that I > associate with Tango.> > My view now is that Tango Nuevo can be good, or even excellent, when danced by professionals or by > trained dancers, but for normal social dancers it's just plain ugly. These people should video > themselves to see how bad they look. But they were having fun so maybe they don't care. But was it > Tango? No way.> > Keith> > > > On Fri Mar 2 20:36 , "Janis Kenyon" sent:> > >Post and read commentaries about the milongas in Buenos Aires:> >https://www.10tango.com/html/baile_milongas.php\?lang=en> >> >First you need to register at the site under Community.> >> >____________________________!
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Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jay wrote:
> I thought the Villa Malcolm evenings were practicas. Floorcraft and
> dancing and connection standards would understandably be poor as
> compared to a milonga...
Uh, why's that then? Is there some reason why these people prefer to
practice dancing of a lower standard?
Chris
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:09:52 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Chris,
I certainly did not say nor imply the connotation you applied, namely that they "prefer(ed) to practice dancing of a lower standard."
Frankly, I don't understand your confusion. Perhaps you don't do practicas where you live. But here at least, a practica is usually used to study step pattern options, dynamics, momentum, etc, and connection between partners is low on the priority list. Also it is accepted protocol that the rule to keep things moving in line-of-dance is not followed at practicas. It's explicitly OK to stand in one place and work out a step.
J
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Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 01:00:05 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: tango-l@mit.edu, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Jay,
I agree with you, but although Villa Malcolm is listed as a Practica, its timing on Fridays is
>from 11.00pm to 3.00am. That's not a time that most people want to practice and it's generally
treated more as a milonga.
Keith
On Sun Mar 4 5:09 , Jay Rabe sent:
>Chris,
> I certainly did not say nor imply the connotation you applied, namely that they "prefer(ed)
to practice dancing of a lower standard."
>
> Frankly, I don't understand your confusion. Perhaps you don't do practicas where you live.
But here at least, a practica is usually used to study step pattern options, dynamics, momentum,
etc, and connection between partners is low on the priority list. Also it is accepted protocol
that the rule to keep things moving in line-of-dance is not followed at practicas. It's explicitly
OK to stand in one place and work out a step.
> J
>
>
>
tl2@chrisjj.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews> > Jay wrote:> > > I thought the Villa
Malcolm evenings were practicas. Floorcraft and > > dancing and connection standards would
understandably be poor as > > compared to a milonga... > > Uh, why's that then? Is there some
reason why these people prefer to > practice dancing of a lower standard?> > Chris>
>Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger?
>https://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx\?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 11:05 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jay wrote:
> Perhaps you don't do practicas where you live. But here at least, a
> practica is usually used to study step pattern options, dynamics,
> momentum, etc, connection between partners is low on the priority list.
We do practicas. But connection remains high priority. People understand
that practicing steps at expense of connection is a waste of time - at best.
> Also it is accepted protocol that the rule to keep things moving in
> line-of-dance is not followed at practicas. It's explicitly OK to stand
> in one place and work out a step.
Well, it's encouraging to read that too is untrue of these BsAs practicas,
at least according to previous reports on this list, such as Meredith's
In the practicas, as in the milongas, the same rules about navigation
apply (staying in your lane, not passing the couple in front of you,
continuing to move around the floor so that the people behind you don't
get stuck with nowhere to go...
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
*From:* Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
*To:* <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Sun, 4 Mar 2007 05:09:52 +0000
Chris,
I certainly did not say nor imply the connotation you applied, namely
that they "prefer(ed) to practice dancing of a lower standard."
Frankly, I don't understand your confusion. Perhaps you don't do
practicas where you live. But here at least, a practica is usually used to
study step pattern options, dynamics, momentum, etc, and connection
between partners is low on the priority list. Also it is accepted protocol
that the rule to keep things moving in line-of-dance is not followed at
practicas. It's explicitly OK to stand in one place and work out a step.
J
> Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 19:20:00 +0000> From: tl2@chrisjj.com> To:
Reviews> > Jay wrote:> > > I thought the Villa Malcolm evenings were
practicas. Floorcraft and > > dancing and connection standards would
understandably be poor as > > compared to a milonga... > > Uh, why's that
then? Is there some reason why these people prefer to > practice dancing
of a lower standard?> > Chris>
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lmailtagline
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Jay wrote:
> do you follow different floorcraft protocols at practicas?
> Is it OK to stop and potentially impede traffic?
Yes, but only in places which have no traffic. ;) Elsewhere it's not OK,
regardless of whether the sign on the door says practica or milonga.
Tango is fundamentally about relationships. The traffic/ronda is an effect
of the guy-guy relationship. To interfere in that by imposing contrary
'protocols' is to undermine the foundation of the dance.
Oleh wrote:
> I could find only one clip from Villa Malcolm on YouTube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wNJ6g1mrq4
Interesting choice of music for practicing. Pretty much sums up the whole
'nuevo' thing, doesn't it? ;)
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
*From:* Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
*To:* <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:55:45 +0000
Keith & Chris,
I agree that just calling something a practica does not make it one. If it's crowded (walks like a duck), then it's a milonga, regardless of what it's called. I admit it's sort of a circular definition in my mind. If the dancer density is low enough that a couple stopping does not impede traffic because there's plenty of room to go around them, then it's a practica, and it's OK to stop and discuss/work on a step.
I'd be interested to hear what people in other cities have to say about this - do you follow different floorcraft protocols at practicas? Is it OK to stop and potentially impede traffic? [Just to be clear, let me say what shouldn't need to be said, that other milonga protocols DO hold at practicas, such as not bumping, kicking, or stepping on other people...]
J in Portland
> From: keith@tangohk.com> To: tango-l@mit.edu; jayrabe@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:00:05 -0500> > Jay,> > I agree with you, but although Villa Malcolm is listed as a Practica, its timing on Fridays is > from 11.00pm to 3.00am. That's not a time that most people want to practice and it's generally > treated more as a milonga.> > Keith>
Explore the seven wonders of the world
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:35:02 -0300
From: "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: keith@tangohk.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<34cd2b720703060835j4de7823bo975c2ebafe050ae3@mail.gmail.com>
On the night that you went to Villa Malcolm, Los Tubatango was playing
and the place was totally packed. It's likely that more than 500
people entered Malcolm that night. For that reason, it was barely
possible to dance and there were more collisions than usual. Due to
the fact that the Buenos Aires Tango Festival was going on last week,
and that CITA is coming up, there were a huge number of tourists in
the room. And because Adrian Veredice and Alejandra Hobert were
dancing at Canning that night, most of the professional and better
social dancers went there instead to see the performance.
Any practica or milonga has better and worse nights, so it's not a
great idea to generalize based on what you saw on one night. Your
comments also made me realize that you and I look at the social dance
floor in different ways. When I'm sitting at Villa Malcolm, Salon
Canning, or any other milonga/practica venue, I look for the amazing
dancers and I watch them. I want to glean whatever I can from the
technique they use, the choices they make about musicality and style,
and the way they resolve problems (technical, navigational, etc.) that
come up as they dance.
Besides the fact that I find the people I want to dance with at
Malcolm, I love it because I see people who inspire me there. In the
past month, for example, I've seen the following dancers at Malcolm:
Chicho Frumboli & Lucia Mazer, Pablo Villaraza & Dana Frigoli, Gaston
Torelli & Mariela Sometband, Ricky & Soledad, Matias Facio & Kara
Wenham, Ishmael Ludman, Javier Antar & Maria Trubba, Federico Farfaro
& Laura de Altuve, Ezequiel Farfaro & Eugenia Parrilla, Mario
Consiglieri & Annabella Diaz-Hojman, Lucas & Vanessa, and many more.
I know that if I go to Malcolm, Practica X, and La Viruta every week,
I will see practically every important younger dancer (i.e. age 45 and
younger) who lives in or comes through Buenos Aires. Attending these
venues enables me to keep my finger on the pulse of ongoing
developments in tango and to be part of the community of professional
dancers who, by traveling to give workshops, are taking tango to every
corner of the world now.
You can go to any milonga in Buenos Aires and focus on the less
experienced or simply less talented dancers in the room and come away
making generalizations about the decline of tango. Or you can focus
on the talented dancers who are committed to taking their dance as far
as it can go, and leave the milonga uplifted and inspired. I
understand that there were fewer dancers in the latter category on the
particular night that you went to Malcolm, but there were some there
nevertheless.
And the fact remains that if you want to see people like Sebastian
Arce, Mariana Montes, Chicho Frumboli, Damian Rosenthal, Celine Ruiz,
Pablo Inza, Moira Castellano, etc. "really" dance (i.e. show the full
range of what they can do from traditional tango to nuevo or
experimental tango), you simply need to go Villa Malcolm, La Viruta,
and Practica X. Because even if you run into these people at Canning,
they are going to be dancing a traditional social style that is only
one facet of their dance.
On 03/03/07, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> Hi Everybody,
>
> After 5 weeks in Buenos Aires, last night I decided to check ot the Tango Nuevo scene at Club
> Villa Malcolm. My god, what a nightmare. It was, without doubt, the worst standard of dancing that
> I've seen since the 70s disco era; in fact, I hesitate to even call it 'dancing'. Previously I'd
> taken the view that Nuevo could be accepted as another style of Argentine Tango, together with
> Salon and Milonguero. But, based on what I saw last night, my opinion has changed. It bore
> absolutely no relationship with what I consider to be Tango, i.e. what you can see in any of the
> mainstream milongas of Buenos Aires.
>
> So, what was wrong at Club Villa Malcolm? Well, very few couples had a connection or even a proper
> embrace, most men spent the whole time looking at their feet, there was no ronda and collisions
> were the norm, and don't get me started on the music because it didn't seem to be connected in any
> way to what people were dancing. It didn't really matter while they were playing Neo Tango but
> when they started to murder some beautiful Golden Age Tango, it became almost too much to bear.
> And, finally, there was absolutely no sign of the elegance, style, serenity or beauty that I
> associate with Tango.
>
> My view now is that Tango Nuevo can be good, or even excellent, when danced by professionals or by
> trained dancers, but for normal social dancers it's just plain ugly. These people should video
> themselves to see how bad they look. But they were having fun so maybe they don't care. But was it
> Tango? No way.
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> On Fri Mar 2 20:36 , "Janis Kenyon" sent:
>
> >Post and read commentaries about the milongas in Buenos Aires:
> >https://www.10tango.com/html/baile_milongas.php\?lang=en
> >
> >First you need to register at the site under Community.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:56:33 -0500
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970703060856o433a05a5j3330084e9d5f17ca@mail.gmail.com>
So after all this I am unclear as to what exactly is the difference between
a practica and a milonga. If in both, all the same rules/conventions are to
be followed, i.e. line of dance, no stopping, stay in lanes, and all the
other even more important rules - protecting partner, dancing with the
music, ... So exactly what can one do at a practica that one should not do
at a milonga. Is it perhaps the conventions for inviting a partner to
dance, cabaseo, vs. asking verbally and identifying what one would like to
practice, or perhaps at a practica one might keep the same partner for many
tandas in a row if both partners would like to work on a particular step or
lead or connection or any aspect of the dance. It it that somehow the
practica is more of a 'learning experience' than a 'social experience'. I
am fishing here to sort out in my own mind exactly what is the difference
between a practica and a milonga. I suddenly realize I have often gone to
practicas with the intention of practincing leading a particular step, and
in fact got lost in the music and 'milonga like' aspects of the practica and
eventually went home and realized while I had a wonder time, danced with
many lovely partners, I never once practiced or led the step I had orginally
intended to practice.
On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 23:39 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Chris, UK <
tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> Jay wrote:
>
> > do you follow different floorcraft protocols at practicas?
> > Is it OK to stop and potentially impede traffic?
>
> Yes, but only in places which have no traffic. ;) Elsewhere it's not OK,
> regardless of whether the sign on the door says practica or milonga.
>
> Tango is fundamentally about relationships. The traffic/ronda is an effect
> of the guy-guy relationship. To interfere in that by imposing contrary
> 'protocols' is to undermine the foundation of the dance.
>
> Oleh wrote:
>
> > I could find only one clip from Villa Malcolm on YouTube:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wNJ6g1mrq4
>
> Interesting choice of music for practicing. Pretty much sums up the whole
> 'nuevo' thing, doesn't it? ;)
>
> Chris
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
> *From:* Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
> *To:* <tango-l@mit.edu>
> *Date:* Mon, 5 Mar 2007 16:55:45 +0000
>
> Keith & Chris,
>
> I agree that just calling something a practica does not make it one.
> If it's crowded (walks like a duck), then it's a milonga, regardless of what
> it's called. I admit it's sort of a circular definition in my mind. If the
> dancer density is low enough that a couple stopping does not impede traffic
> because there's plenty of room to go around them, then it's a practica, and
> it's OK to stop and discuss/work on a step.
> I'd be interested to hear what people in other cities have to say
> about this - do you follow different floorcraft protocols at practicas? Is
> it OK to stop and potentially impede traffic? [Just to be clear, let me say
> what shouldn't need to be said, that other milonga protocols DO hold at
> practicas, such as not bumping, kicking, or stepping on other people...]
> J in Portland
>
>
>
> > From: keith@tangohk.com> To: tango-l@mit.edu; jayrabe@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 01:00:05
> -0500> > Jay,> > I agree with you, but although Villa Malcolm is listed as a
> Practica, its timing on Fridays is > from 11.00pm to 3.00am. That's not a
> time that most people want to practice and it's generally > treated more as
> a milonga.> > Keith>
> Explore the seven wonders of the world
>
>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 18:43:53 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Chris wrote: > > Yes, but only in places which have no traffic. ;) Elsewhere it's not OK, > regardless of whether the sign on the door says practica or milonga.
Well it seems after all we're in substantial agreement. :-)
J
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 21:50 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Meredith wrote:
> You can go to any milonga in Buenos Aires and focus on the less
> experienced or simply less talented dancers in the room and come away
> making generalizations about the decline of tango. Or you can focus
> on the talented dancers who are committed to taking their dance as far
> as it can go, and leave the milonga uplifted and inspired.
I think that underlines the difference between a guy going to the milonga
to dance, and a girl going for reasons of professional development.
You've said you look for the amazing dancers and watch them. To glean
technique. To keep "your finger on the pulse of ongoing developments
in tango" and to "be part of the community of professional dancers".
All of which you do from your chair.
An average guy looking to dance has very different concerns. He
necessarily focusses on the guys at the lower end of the range since it's
they that determine how comfortable or rough the dancing is. Whether the
dancers at the top of the range are amazing or not makes little difference
to the enjoyment of everyone else.
Your experience is one of show tango.
His is one of social dance.
Chris
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:12:26 -0300
From: "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<34cd2b720703081912m6392950dn3e7719b49bcb6391@mail.gmail.com>
Chris wrote:
> You've said you look for the amazing dancers and watch them. To glean
> technique. To keep "your finger on the pulse of ongoing developments
> in tango" and to "be part of the community of professional dancers".
>
> All of which you do from your chair.
>
> An average guy looking to dance has very different concerns. He
> necessarily focusses on the guys at the lower end of the range since it's
> they that determine how comfortable or rough the dancing is. Whether the
> dancers at the top of the range are amazing or not makes little difference
> to the enjoyment of everyone else.
>
> Your experience is one of show tango.
>
> His is one of social dance.
I don't know where you got the idea that I spend my time in the
practicas sitting. No, I go to Malcolm to dance, I dance for hours,
and then I go to La Viruta or Salon Canning to dance some more because
I honestly can't get enough. That's why I took apart my life in the
US and moved here two years ago.
And I don't just watch the people in the practicas who inspire me, I
dance with them, and sometimes practice with them and talk about our
perceptions of the dance and learn from them.
But somewhere in those 6+ hours between 11:30 pm and 6 am, I often
find myself sitting and I make use of that time to learn what I can by
watching other people.
I think it's kind of funny that after I've written a number of
detailed posts to this list about the social dance scene here in
Buenos Aires, you accuse me of going to the practicas for the "show."
Very strange.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:46:57 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
To: "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>, <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
>
> I think it's kind of funny that after I've written a number of
> detailed posts to this list about the social dance scene here in
> Buenos Aires, you accuse me of going to the practicas for the "show."
> Very strange.
>
Meredith,
you don't know this list yet. I have read your posting on practicas in BA,
it was wonderful, and I told you so in private. But you have to realise that
no matter what you say on this list, there may always be somebody who is
just using this list to express his/her negativity, to bully and harrass
people, and who knows, who may be jealous of others who actually know how to
dance tango.
Be careful who you talk to, some people here are not worth your time.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 04:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Meredith wrote:
> I don't know where you got the idea that I spend my time in the
> practicas sitting ...
Nowhere. I'm sure you don't just sit.
> you accuse me of going to the practicas for the "show."
Nowhere. I'm sure you don't go just to watch.
But since the subject you brought up here was "sitting at Villa Malcolm"
etc. and watching the 29 amazing dancers you listed, that is the subject I
responded to.
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Reviews
*From:* "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>
*To:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*CC:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Fri, 9 Mar 2007 00:12:26 -0300
Chris wrote:
> You've said you look for the amazing dancers and watch them. To glean
> technique. To keep "your finger on the pulse of ongoing developments
> in tango" and to "be part of the community of professional dancers".
>
> All of which you do from your chair.
>
> An average guy looking to dance has very different concerns. He
> necessarily focusses on the guys at the lower end of the range since it's
> they that determine how comfortable or rough the dancing is. Whether the
> dancers at the top of the range are amazing or not makes little difference
> to the enjoyment of everyone else.
>
> Your experience is one of show tango.
>
> His is one of social dance.
I don't know where you got the idea that I spend my time in the
practicas sitting. No, I go to Malcolm to dance, I dance for hours,
and then I go to La Viruta or Salon Canning to dance some more because
I honestly can't get enough. That's why I took apart my life in the
US and moved here two years ago.
And I don't just watch the people in the practicas who inspire me, I
dance with them, and sometimes practice with them and talk about our
perceptions of the dance and learn from them.
But somewhere in those 6+ hours between 11:30 pm and 6 am, I often
find myself sitting and I make use of that time to learn what I can by
watching other people.
I think it's kind of funny that after I've written a number of
detailed posts to this list about the social dance scene here in
Buenos Aires, you accuse me of going to the practicas for the "show."
Very strange.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
