4149 Milonga rhythm
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:43:30 -0500
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Milonga rhythm
I am encountering leaders who dance milonga with a variety of rhythms, as if it's a tango. I've looked for specific explainations of the =
differences between the two dances, rhythmically speaking, and can't find one at any of the tango sites I visited. What would be your =
reaction to leaders that apply the tango concept of total freedom to interpret the music rhythmically, to their milonga?
Thanks,
ME
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:59:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
I am encountering leaders who dance milonga with a variety of rhythms, as if
it's a tango. I've looked for specific explainations of the differences
between the two dances, rhythmically speaking, and can't find one at any of
the tango sites I visited. What would be your reaction to leaders that
apply the tango concept of total freedom to interpret the music
rhythmically, to their milonga?
Thanks,
ME
Basically, someone who dances the milonga as though it was a tango, simply
does not know how to dance milonga. Usually, during the milonga, you step on
every beat, and the steps are smaller than in tango. There is more to it,
but hard to describe in writing.
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:32:16 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
Astrid forgot to mention Milonga Tras-pie, which includes a lot of
double-time steps.
Tras pie means stumble in Spanish, but I translate it as "shuffle-
step" milonga. There is a lot of rhythmic play and hip movement. Not
for beginners (or even intermediates?), Milonga Tras-pie may include
wither shuffle-steps or just double-time steps.
A lot of Canaro and D'Arienzo milongas from the 20s have a "candombe"
rhythm which suggests a lot of playfulness.
> I am encountering leaders who dance milonga with a variety of
> rhythms, as if
> it's a tango. I've looked for specific explainations of the
> differences
> between the two dances, rhythmically speaking, and can't find one
> at any of
> the tango sites I visited. What would be your reaction to leaders
> that
> apply the tango concept of total freedom to interpret the music
> rhythmically, to their milonga?
>
> Thanks,
> ME
>
> Basically, someone who dances the milonga as though it was a tango,
> simply
> does not know how to dance milonga. Usually, during the milonga,
> you step on
> every beat, and the steps are smaller than in tango. There is more
> to it,
> but hard to describe in writing.
> Astrid
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:48:40 -0700
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
Tango music is 4/4 or 2/4 time. Whereas the
Milonga is a fast 2/4 time. (Of course the Vals,
is 3/4 time).
>I am encountering leaders who dance milonga with a variety of rhythms, as if
>it's a tango. I've looked for specific explainations of the differences
>between the two dances, rhythmically speaking, and can't find one at any of
>the tango sites I visited. What would be your reaction to leaders that
>apply the tango concept of total freedom to interpret the music
>rhythmically, to their milonga?
>
>Thanks,
>ME
>
>Basically, someone who dances the milonga as though it was a tango, simply
>does not know how to dance milonga. Usually, during the milonga, you step on
>every beat, and the steps are smaller than in tango. There is more to it,
>but hard to describe in writing.
>
--
Costa rica
©2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el paraíso,
todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
Rich coast,
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights,
and candle lights.
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:49:14 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
Hello Melanie,
Within the milonga, there are a lot of rhythmic
variations that one could use. Milonga typically has
a mixture of milonga rhythm (1-pause-&3-4), which
sounds similar to the habanera, and a simple 1-2
rhythm. The song Milonga Sentimental by Canaro is one
I use often to teach milonga since it uses both
rhythms and is quite clear. (BTW, I teach this when I
teach milonga traspie in week 10 with good results.)
What you might be experiencing is how the man chooses
to accent the rhythm. It's a different feeling to
step forward on 1 and traspie on 3-4 than it is to
step side on 1 and traspie forward on 3-4. The timing
may be the same, but if one is changing where one
steps, the effects are different. There are probably
more variations, but those are the two that I usually
use.
Of course, the man can choose to just do 1 and 3.
However, to me, it doesn't feel or look like a milonga
if one isn't hitting the milonga rhythm when
appropriate, taking smaller steps, being playful with
his partner, making quick movements, and dancing all
the time (no pausing). Too many people tend to treat
milonga as a fast tango, when it is it's own separate
dance.
Hope this helps.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
wrote:
> I am encountering leaders who dance milonga with a
> variety of rhythms, as if it's a tango. I've looked
> for specific explainations of the differences
> between the two dances, rhythmically speaking, and
> can't find one at any of the tango sites I visited.
> What would be your reaction to leaders that apply
> the tango concept of total freedom to interpret the
> music rhythmically, to their milonga?
>
> Thanks,
> ME
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:48:22 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
Trini said it wonderfully about the Milinga.
I'd like to add something which I consider can help to make those fast
steps, keep the rhythm, and stay with a partner.
===
As well as in tango, milonga rhythm is freely interpreted by dancers.
A dancer leads his own rhythmical patterns inside the other rhythmical
patters presented by various musical instruments and their interplay.
Even though the music is important, first of all a lady must listen to her
leader - in accordance with his rhythmical patterns he leads a lady to
something familiar or to... what might be something unexpected.
Gentlemen should listen to music. Immerse yourself in it! It gives better
understanding of the Milonga rhythm instead of counting in-mind. Never
count! It makes you too slow and off the music. But do not forget to lead.
The leading skill is taken to extreme in milonga.
Most important in milonga: to have a right "milonguero" step and very good
tight connection, so you can feel the rhythm in your partner well and give
back your reactions.
To practice "milonguero" step, make a lot of cortes or all sorts and
directions. It is sharp. Your leg has to stick into the floor and another
one should be ready for the next sharp step in any direction: you push from
the floor. Milonguero step must stop you completely no matter how fast you
are moving.
The tighter the connection - the better you will dance milonga otherwise you
have to be really skillful in milonguero steps. You easy bounce from your
partner if you have the right connection redirecting energy to the next
step. That is what gives the dance lightness. Otherwise you have to be a
real master of a milonguero step to keep the dance going.
And the smaller the steps are the better.
I believe the best exercise for milonga is to practice something like
Flamenco.
Igor Polk.
PS. I am not a teacher or something. I have described my own dancing and my
own experience dancing with beginners and advanced dancers. If you find it
helpful, please, let me know.
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:26:57 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>Milonga Tras-pie may include either shuffle-steps or
>just double-time steps.
Trini of PATangoS wrote:
>Within the milonga, there are a lot of rhythmic
>variations that one could use.....
>What you might be experiencing is how the man chooses
>to accent the rhythm...
More and more leaders are playing with the rhythm dancing milongas, so I guess some of those Traspie workshops are working. Personally, it took me a long time to be able to play with the half-beat when I am actually dancing. This is because not only do I have to interpret the music. I also have to lead someone else to dance to my interpretation, which is not easy when the person does not know what is coming. Tom is right in his stipulation that the Traspie is for the more advanced dancers.
In my most memorable Traspie workshop, with Marisa Galindo, she actually showed three variations of dancing the Traspie. Please don't ask me to repeat what she taught, for like most workshops, I only absorbed the essense. In this case, what I learnt is that I can play with the rhythm, any way I want. I did not enjoy dancing milonga for a long time, and almost stopped dancing it. Now that I am able to play with the rhythm, I am enjoying milongas again.
Back to Melanie's original message. Yes, I do dance milonga with some tango steps, the ocho cortado being the most obvious. However, the way the steps are done are different. The feel of the steps is lighter, more playful.
I hope the person you danced with was actually playing with the milonga rhythm, and not someone who cannot (or don't want to) tell a milonga from a tango.
T.C.
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:14:43 -0700
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga rhythm
Thanks for your enlightened comments on this
listserv. I personally appreciate reading what
you have to say about "Tango"...
Thanks,
>Trini said it wonderfully about the Milinga.
>
>I'd like to add something which I consider can help to make those fast
>steps, keep the rhythm, and stay with a partner.
>
>===
>As well as in tango, milonga rhythm is freely interpreted by dancers.
>A dancer leads his own rhythmical patterns inside the other rhythmical
>patters presented by various musical instruments and their interplay.
>
>Even though the music is important, first of all a lady must listen to her
>leader - in accordance with his rhythmical patterns he leads a lady to
>something familiar or to... what might be something unexpected.
>
>Gentlemen should listen to music. Immerse yourself in it! It gives better
>understanding of the Milonga rhythm instead of counting in-mind. Never
>count! It makes you too slow and off the music. But do not forget to lead.
>The leading skill is taken to extreme in milonga.
>
>Most important in milonga: to have a right "milonguero" step and very good
>tight connection, so you can feel the rhythm in your partner well and give
>back your reactions.
>
>To practice "milonguero" step, make a lot of cortes or all sorts and
>directions. It is sharp. Your leg has to stick into the floor and another
>one should be ready for the next sharp step in any direction: you push from
>the floor. Milonguero step must stop you completely no matter how fast you
>are moving.
>
>The tighter the connection - the better you will dance milonga otherwise you
>have to be really skillful in milonguero steps. You easy bounce from your
>partner if you have the right connection redirecting energy to the next
>step. That is what gives the dance lightness. Otherwise you have to be a
>real master of a milonguero step to keep the dance going.
>
>And the smaller the steps are the better.
>
>I believe the best exercise for milonga is to practice something like
>Flamenco.
>
>Igor Polk.
>PS. I am not a teacher or something. I have described my own dancing and my
>own experience dancing with beginners and advanced dancers. If you find it
>helpful, please, let me know.
>
--
Costa rica
©2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el paraíso,
todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
Rich coast,
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights,
and candle lights.
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:02:40 -0500
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Milonga Rhythm
Thanks for all the posted and private responses to my milonga rhythm question. I'm beginning to think that what I'm experiencing is a =
bizarre phenomenom, which I hope is limited to a particular small group in my community. Some of you IMO hit the nail on the head. Thanks =
Astrid and Alice. But, perhaps in trying to be discrete, I didn't elaborate enough.
Rhythm in milonga? Oh yeah. No problem. Everything everyone said about the possibilities for rhythm in milonga confirmed my experience as =
a leader and follower. What I'm seeing are a few leaders who after dancing to what most of us would call milonga rhythms with milonga =
music, will suddenly slow down and dance the basic tango walking rhythm (stepping on the 1 3 5 7) for 32 or 48 beats. It appears to be a =
decision to use that "tango" rhythm to express themselves (sic) in milonga, and they apparently think it acceptable. I think it's NUTS and =
has no connection to the music. Maybe they're slowing down, because they're not "in" the music and are busy thinking about setting up the =
next "step" they're going to lead? Maybe they're tired and need a little break? ;~)
Is this a new fad? I think it's an unfortunate misconception on the part of a few uneducated but influencial persons in my community. When =
I commented to one relatively new gentleman, who lead me to do it at this weeks practica, that it didn't feel like milonga to me and I would =
never lead that slow a walk to milonga music, he blew me off with, "it was interesting to get the personal preferences of the followers". =
Since when is doing a tango walk to milonga music an acceptable musicality preference rather than just wrong? Feels stupid and =
unmusical to me.
Since he relegated my opinion to "followers preference" instead of choosing to benefit from my six years of experience leading, I had hoped =
that the list could give me some perspective to share with him or at worst find out I'm missing out on the latest craze. But this....am I =
wrong, or is this just uninformed dancing, mistakenly taking the idea of musical interpretation and making it stink? Maybe they think that doing =
a tango walk in milonga adds variety to the dance. Yuck. I would love to give this very nice, but IMO misinformed, gentleman some input from =
the international community or should I just keep my mouth shut and politely decline his invitation to milonga?
Oh well, I'll take comfort in the fact that his spouse likes to dance with me.
Melanie (dissed by a beginner and lookin for ammo) Eskoff
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 06:40:53 -0700
From: burl burl <burlq7@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga Rhythm
Melanie Eskoff;
If you ask me I would let this go. So the guy is experimenting with timing for 48 beats? If the rest of his milonga is good, then he is no fool. You say he is a nice guy so just let it go. I certainly wouldn't use anything anyone posts here as amunition. When you say he relegated your thoughts to "followers preference", that doesn't sound insulting to me.
One thing you might consider (since you also lead) is leaders are always stuck with their own dance. Sometimes we just have to experiment to grow, and sometimes the experiment fails. Since you say the guy is nice, I would forgive and forget.
yours
Burleigh
"
Since he relegated my opinion to "followers preference" instead of choosing to benefit from my six years of experience leading, I had hoped that the list could give me some perspective to share with him or at worst find out I'm missing out on the latest craze. But this....am I wrong, or is this just uninformed dancing, mistakenly taking the idea of musical interpretation and making it stink? Maybe they think that doing a tango walk in milonga adds variety to the dance. Yuck. I would love to give this very nice, but IMO misinformed, gentleman some input from the international community or should I just keep my mouth shut and politely decline his invitation to milonga?
Oh well, I'll take comfort in the fact that his spouse likes to dance with me.
Melanie (dissed by a beginner and lookin for ammo) Eskoff"
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2"/min or less.
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:43:30 -0500
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Milonga rhythm
I am encountering leaders who dance milonga with a variety of rhythms, as if it's a tango. I've looked for specific explainations of the =
differences between the two dances, rhythmically speaking, and can't find one at any of the tango sites I visited. What would be your =
reaction to leaders that apply the tango concept of total freedom to interpret the music rhythmically, to their milonga?
Thanks,
ME
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:01:01 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENINET.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Milonga Rhythm
Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM> writes:
>
> Since he relegated my opinion to "followers preference" instead of
> choosing to benefit from my six years of experience leading, [...]
>
> Melanie (dissed by a beginner and lookin for ammo) Eskoff
You have at least six years experience and you're
worrying about getting "dissed" by some beginner (who
almost by definition as such has no real idea of what
he's talking about) to the extent of looking for ammo?
For heaven's sake, why?
I suggest you just don't dance milonga anymore
with this guy. At many venues, milonga tandas are
rare, and thus precious--why waste one on *him*?
Huck
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:41:51 -0500
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Milonga Rhythm
Joaquin,
I appreciate this response. I completely understand his status as a
beginner and am only concerned because I've seen a couple of other more
experienced leaders of his aquaintance doing the same. It's looking like a
trend, not a momentary beginner thing. I would rather question my own
knowledge before I continue, gently, telling someone I feel they're going
down a bad path. And, you never know, new stuff is put out there on the
tango market all the time, not all of it appropriate. I can't keep up with
all of it. I only spoke to him after we finished dancing (at a practica).
If he'd responded with more acceptance, I probably wouldn't have written the
list.
I suppose it all boils down to the fact that we can all dance as badly as we
choose......or not. He was right. It was simply my opinion (that I got
from Julio B, Alex K, Omar V,.....).
I'm going to interpret you response as........bad beginner milonga
musicality, hopefully temporary. That's what I was hoping to hear, am much
to sooth my bruised ego as to share more appropriate musicality ideas.
The part about "ammo" was humor. Perhaps he prefers the dancing of whomever
he learned his slooooowwww milonga. I'll continue trying to thrill his
spouse will my milonga style and perhaps she'll bring up the subject with
him.
Thanks again,
ME
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: [TANGO-L] Milonga Rhythm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Tue 04/18, Melanie Eskoff < melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM > wrote:
>
> From: Melanie Eskoff [mailto: melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM]
>
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:02:40 -0500
>
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Milonga Rhythm
>
>
>
> Melanie,
>
> "Since he relegated my opinion to "followers preference" instead of
> choosing to benefit from my six years of experience leading"
>
>
>
> Probably a poor choice of words on his part. However, I tend to agree
> with Burl. You should cut the guy a little slack if he's a beginner and
> you actually have 6 years experience leading ( plus how many years
> following?) As a beginner myself, (6 months) it can be unnerving to dance
> with a follower as experienced as yourself. It was probably just
> uninformed dancing. As a matter of fact I recall leading some tango walks
> to a milonga, because that was all I knew until I had a series of milonga
> classes!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> "I would love to give this very nice, but IMO misinformed, gentleman some
> input from the international community or should I just keep my mouth shut
> and politely decline his invitation to milonga?"
>
>
>
> This is a tougher question. I think you should not keep your mouth shut.
> You should tell him exactly what you think milonga rhythm is all about and
> why a tango walk feels inappropriate to you. I don't think you need
> 'ammo' from the community, and you don't have to beat him over the head
> with it, but you do have to be clear and concise. I don't mind at all
> being corrected by a six year veteran. However, I prefer it be done off
> the dance floor. If he is "very nice" he will respond appropriately, and
> if he doesn't, then you will have good reason to decline.
>
>
>
> good luck,
>
>
>
> joaquin
>
>
>
> ps: If you want to send this to the List, you have my permission.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:16:55 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENINET.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Milonga Rhythm
Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau@LAW.NYC.GOV> writes:
>
> Saw your post on tango list, and being a milonga nut I couldnt
> help taking a shot at this. Disclaimer- The following is my humble
> two cents, and I dont claim to be an expert on tango or milonga,
> so please guys, dont attack any inaccuracies herein.
Okay, we'll just let them pass, giving them
tacit approval, so they have a better chance of
taking hold and multiplying, like a virus. Whee!!
> Rhythmically, many classical tangos are in 4/4 rhythm, while
> milonga is more clave, cramming five beats into the same phrase,
> like mambo, 5/4
I'm not going to get into the whole tango 2/4 or 4/4
thing, but friend, if you think milonga or mambo is 5/4,
you haven't the slightest idea of what a musical time
signature is.
> So separating the phrase into five beats, you can pick your
> clave emphasis. slow, slow, quick-quick- slow, for example.
So changing slow-slow-slow-slow, to
slow-slow-quick-quick-slow is 5/4. I suppose next you're
going to call it "syncopation."
Ah, dancers. They're so cute when they try to talk
like musicians! :-)
> Also, we interpret milonga in such a way that parts of the
> song are straight time and parts are syncopated, or traspie.
Bingo! There's the Groucho Marx secret word!
Okay, the horse of dancer misuse of the word "syncopation"
is long out of the barn, and a hopeless cause at this point
other than to just have some fun with it, but I shall not stand
by and watch you redefine the meaning of the time signature,
kind sir!
Huck
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:20:21 -0700
From: Melinda Kausek <melindakausek@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga Rhythm
Melanie et al. -
I'll take your word for it that the novice leader you
danced with hasn't found his milonga "groove" yet and
didn't really know what he was doing. However, there's
a difference between dancing milonga as if it were a
fast tango and dancing milonga in half-time.
For me the difference between tango and milonga is not
so much rhythm, but the quality of movement. Milongas
tend to be drier, sharper, and more earthy than
tangos, and the way you move, regardless of how fast
or slow, should reflect that. As others have
mentioned, milongas are written in 2/4 time, basically
this means there are just two beats per measure and
only one gets the accent. So when you said the leader
was dancing on "1, 3, 5, 7 etc," he was actually just
dancing on the "1" (or the "2";)
As an experienced dancer (7+ years following and close
to 5 leading) and a milonga fanatic, dancing an entire
milonga this way would probably drive me crazy too,
but done with skill and intention, dancing a good part
in half or even quarter time by finding those accents
and mixing it up with the more common single and
double-time passes would lead to the richest milonga
experience. It's about dancing slowly and increasing
the intensity, not lowering it, and then releasing the
excess energy with some spicy traspie. Yum.
some food for thought,
Melinda
--- Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
wrote:
> Thanks for all the posted and private responses to
> my milonga rhythm question. I'm beginning to think
> that what I'm experiencing is a bizarre phenomenom,
> which I hope is limited to a particular small group
> in my community. Some of you IMO hit the nail on
> the head. Thanks Astrid and Alice. But, perhaps in
> trying to be discrete, I didn't elaborate enough.
>
> Rhythm in milonga? Oh yeah. No problem.
> Everything everyone said about the possibilities for
> rhythm in milonga confirmed my experience as a
> leader and follower. What I'm seeing are a few
> leaders who after dancing to what most of us would
> call milonga rhythms with milonga music, will
> suddenly slow down and dance the basic tango walking
> rhythm (stepping on the 1 3 5 7) for 32 or 48 beats.
> It appears to be a decision to use that "tango"
> rhythm to express themselves (sic) in milonga, and
> they apparently think it acceptable. I think it's
> NUTS and has no connection to the music. Maybe
> they're slowing down, because they're not "in" the
> music and are busy thinking about setting up the
> next "step" they're going to lead? Maybe they're
> tired and need a little break? ;~)
>
> Is this a new fad? I think it's an unfortunate
> misconception on the part of a few uneducated but
> influencial persons in my community. When I
> commented to one relatively new gentleman, who lead
> me to do it at this weeks practica, that it didn't
> feel like milonga to me and I would never lead that
> slow a walk to milonga music, he blew me off with,
> "it was interesting to get the personal preferences
> of the followers". Since when is doing a tango walk
> to milonga music an acceptable musicality preference
> rather than just wrong? Feels stupid and unmusical
> to me.
>
> Since he relegated my opinion to "followers
> preference" instead of choosing to benefit from my
> six years of experience leading, I had hoped that
> the list could give me some perspective to share
> with him or at worst find out I'm missing out on the
> latest craze. But this....am I wrong, or is this
> just uninformed dancing, mistakenly taking the idea
> of musical interpretation and making it stink?
> Maybe they think that doing a tango walk in milonga
> adds variety to the dance. Yuck. I would love to
> give this very nice, but IMO misinformed, gentleman
> some input from the international community or
> should I just keep my mouth shut and politely
> decline his invitation to milonga?
>
> Oh well, I'll take comfort in the fact that his
> spouse likes to dance with me.
>
> Melanie (dissed by a beginner and lookin for ammo)
> Eskoff
>
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:05:14 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Steve Pastor wrote:
I have learned that milonga is best taught as a One Step, with the
"syncopated" movements added after people become comfortable with stepping
on only the accented beat (2 beats of every 4).>>>>
There are two rhythms in milonga:
1) double rhythm -- two steps in two beats of music; and
2) triple rhythm (called traspie) -- three steps in two beats of music (like
a triple step in swing).
There is no syncopated rhythm in milonga. The wrong terminology is used
because teachers aren't musicians.
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:41:30 -0800
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To the statement:
>There is no syncopated rhythm in milonga. The wrong terminology is used
because teachers aren't musicians<
my 2 cents:
I am not a musician, but I would disagree that there is no syncopated rhythm(s)
in the milonga. One simple form of syncopated rhythm is found in the pause(s)
in the milonga called "Milonga Vieja Milonga".
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:44:44 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
You're right, Janis.
I repeated what my teachers had told me until I received a lecture from a
professional pianist after a Tango class in which I was teaching double-time
steps, but not syncopation. I've never made the same mistake again.
Keith, HK
On Sun Jan 13 14:05 , "Janis Kenyon" sent:
>
>There are two rhythms in milonga:
>
>1) double rhythm -- two steps in two beats of music; and
>2) triple rhythm (called traspie) -- three steps in two beats of music (like
>a triple step in swing).
>
>There is no syncopated rhythm in milonga. The wrong terminology is used
>because teachers aren't musicians.
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:46:50 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Was it Janis or Steven who wrote:
> There are two rhythms in milonga:
>
> 1) double rhythm -- two steps in two beats of music; and
> 2) triple rhythm (called traspie) -- three steps in two beats of music (like
> a triple step in swing).
I'm not a trained musician, except for piano lessons as a pre-teen, but the three steps/notes in two beats sounds like what I remember being called a "triplet" in musical notation. For the life of me I don't think I've ever heard such a thing in tango, except rarely, and certainly not to an extent to justify its being a description of a class of milonga songs. OTOH I have heard and seen a lot of traspie done to double-time or half-beats or (incorrectly but popularly called) synchopation. In this mode, you've got 4 notes/steps in two beats.
I'd be interested in some examples of milongas that use triplets with three steps/notes in two beats.
J
TangoMoments.com
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:31:00 -0600
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jay Rabe wrote:
> Was it Janis or Steven who wrote:
>
>
>> There are two rhythms in milonga:
>>
>> 1) double rhythm -- two steps in two beats of music; and
>> 2) triple rhythm (called traspie) -- three steps in two beats of music (like
>> a triple step in swing).
>>
>
> I'm not a trained musician, except for piano lessons as a pre-teen, but the three steps/notes in two beats sounds like what I remember being called a "triplet" in musical notation.
The rhythm is one of QQS or SQQ usually (S = slow, Q = quick). A triple
would have three *equally* spaced pulses. There are a few Milongas that
have triplets in the melody, but people manage to ignore those just
fine. Practically, ain't nobody doing triplets in Milonga. Now, a lot of
folks still won't do triples even in Vals....
<RANT>
Which gets me to a minor gripe with a lot of dancers who do Vals. How
many times have I seen it where they do not follow the triple rhythm and
instead put 2 against three. So what should be
beat: 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 or 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3
step: x x | x x | x x | x x x x | x x | x x | x x
we get
beat: 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3 | 1 2 3
step: x x | x x | x x | x x
I've ever heard a fair number of instructors who unwittingly tell
students during class to do Vals as duple by saying to do QQ in each
measure. Yes, others get it right, but what to do? Might I suggest
using the correct pattern of QS QS QS QS or SQ SQ SQ SQ? If you are
telling students to do Vals with QQ at any point you are misleading them.
</RANT>
Now I feel better....
Cheers,
Jeff
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 14:05:55 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jay wrote,
"Was it Janis or Steven who wrote:
> There are two rhythms in milonga:
>
> 1) double rhythm -- two steps in two beats of music; and
> 2) triple rhythm (called traspie) -- three steps in two beats of music (like
> a triple step in swing).
I'm not a trained musician, except for piano lessons as a pre-teen, but the three steps/notes in two beats sounds like what I remember being called a "triplet" in musical notation. For the life of me I don't think I've ever heard such a thing in tango, except rarely, and certainly not to an extent to justify its being a description of a class of milonga songs. OTOH I have heard and seen a lot of traspie done to double-time or half-beats or (incorrectly but popularly called) synchopation. In this mode, you've got 4 notes/steps in two beats.
I'd be interested in some examples of milongas that use triplets with three steps/notes in two beats."
See the score for Milonga Triste at this url...
https://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/partituras/partitura.asp?id%4
Happens 6 times (that I see) in this score.
I'd say that any time something has been going along as 1/4 notes, then has a few 1/8
notes, or 1/2 notes followed by a few 1/4 notes, (what Jay is calling double time or half beats, and note that I put quote marks around synchopation in my previous post) makes it
feel like you can or should take that extra, in between step.
Triplets, double time? Hey, who's counting?
Looking at the scores can make a person crazy. It seems like it's much easier to just listen
to the darn music. That's because not only is there both the treble and bass clef going if it's
a piano, but there are usually several instruments, and they often take turns regarding who
is playing the most obvious line at any given time.
Anyone who is taking baby steps on this like I am, may find this url helpful
https://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/19triplets.html
With apologies to those of you who are "real" musicians. This is part of my learning process.
P.S. I don't think I wrote the text Jay referred to.
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:32:51 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I would agree I haven't heard triplets in tango, vals, milonga. I'm
sure the musicians on the list will chime in if they exist.
I think the confusion is being caused by the idea of "one-two-three" in
music based on four beats. This is the same as quick-quick-slow (where
the first three beats have a beat on each, and they are all the same -
with a 'hold' on 4). In contrast, a true triplet in four-beat time is
what is called "two against three" and is a break from the regular beats.
It's as if you took a ruler and measured an inch in quarters (2 sets of
2), then measured the same inch in 2 sets of thirds. The marks would
fall at different places -- straight 4/4 = .25, .5, .75, 1.0 (4 beats)
-- triplets = .165, .33, .5 (first 2 beats of 4) and .67, .83, 1.0
(second 2 beats of 4). As you can see they don't line up on the ruler.
If the predominant rhythm is in 4 beats, the triplets sound off-beat.
The reverse is true of dancing two beats to vals. Vals is triplets
(.33, .67, 1.0) for each beat and the two-beat step will sound off-beat
(.5, 1.0). I agree that I have seen lots of people dancing two steps to
vals; I was taught that was a no-no.
Kind of a geeky explanation but maybe it will help some.
CS
steve pastor wrote:
> Jay wrote,
> "Was it Janis or Steven who wrote:
>
>> There are two rhythms in milonga:
>>
>> 1) double rhythm -- two steps in two beats of music; and
>> 2) triple rhythm (called traspie) -- three steps in two beats of music (like
>> a triple step in swing).
>
> I'm not a trained musician, except for piano lessons as a pre-teen, but the three steps/notes in two beats sounds like what I remember being called a "triplet" in musical notation. For the life of me I don't think I've ever heard such a thing in tango, except rarely, and certainly not to an extent to justify its being a description of a class of milonga songs. OTOH I have heard and seen a lot of traspie done to double-time or half-beats or (incorrectly but popularly called) synchopation. In this mode, you've got 4 notes/steps in two beats.
>
> I'd be interested in some examples of milongas that use triplets with three steps/notes in two beats."
>
> See the score for Milonga Triste at this url...
> https://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/partituras/partitura.asp?id%4
>
> Happens 6 times (that I see) in this score.
>
> I'd say that any time something has been going along as 1/4 notes, then has a few 1/8
> notes, or 1/2 notes followed by a few 1/4 notes, (what Jay is calling double time or half beats, and note that I put quote marks around synchopation in my previous post) makes it
> feel like you can or should take that extra, in between step.
> Triplets, double time? Hey, who's counting?
>
> Looking at the scores can make a person crazy. It seems like it's much easier to just listen
> to the darn music. That's because not only is there both the treble and bass clef going if it's
> a piano, but there are usually several instruments, and they often take turns regarding who
> is playing the most obvious line at any given time.
>
> Anyone who is taking baby steps on this like I am, may find this url helpful
> https://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/19triplets.html
>
> With apologies to those of you who are "real" musicians. This is part of my learning process.
>
> P.S. I don't think I wrote the text Jay referred to.
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
your company's contract corporate counsel
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:29:19 -0500
From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: shepherd@arborlaw.com
Cc: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<4f5d14730801171229h20082c69g88adb5ea534414ac@mail.gmail.com>
On 1/14/08, Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net> wrote:
>I would agree I haven't heard triplets in tango, vals, milonga. I'm
>sure the musicians on the list will chime in if they exist.
Can you easily distinguish triplets in music you hear? Every kind of
music has them... even rock. I don't see how this will lead anyone
anywhere. syncopation is a much stronger tool to use as far as
creating timming "fun". Syncopating a triplet may make it not become
so much of a triplet anymore. The music sheet is a guide that
performers will either try to follow precisely or not.
>I think the confusion is being caused by the idea of "one-two-three" in
>music based on four beats. This is the same as quick-quick-slow (where
>the first three beats have a beat on each, and they are all the same -
>with a 'hold' on 4). In contrast, a true triplet in four-beat time is
>what is called "two against three" and is a break from the regular beats.
A triplet is putting 3 notes in 2-note time-space. If you have one
"time"/beat, and you put 3 half-notes/times on it, it's called a
triplet. That means that in fact each note is getting 1/3 instead of
1/2 of the time/beat.
>The reverse is true of dancing two beats to vals. Vals is triplets
>(.33, .67, 1.0) for each beat and the two-beat step will sound off-beat
>(.5, 1.0). I agree that I have seen lots of people dancing two steps to
>vals; I was taught that was a no-no.
vals is a 3/4 time. That's where the feeling comes from. Just like
waltz. Some people will dance it in a more "strict" 3/4 feel, some
will in a more 4/4. It's all good as long as you make a good
interpretation of it. when I mean strict is the difference between
having 6/8 rythm or a 6/4. They're different. Just pick musics in 6/4
and 6/8. For some will be subtle, for others it will be obvious.
tango on
b
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 16:49:46 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga rhythms
To: Bruno Afonso <bafonso@gmail.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Me, I can definitely distinguish triplets (3 against 2) in any music I
hear, but I have a lot of music training. I don't hear them in tango
music. I hear them in Afro-Cuban music all the time, and in Brazilian
samba drumlines (ie, percussion improvisation). But I don't hear them
in tango or milonga orchestra music.
The confusion in the dance world about triplets comes from dancers and
teachers equating "triple step" with "triplet". "Triple step"
intuitively seems like 3 equal steps to a dancer who has no musical
training. The rhythm is more accurately called out in dance classes as
"quick quick slow" or "slow quick quick" to remind the dancers that
there is a pause on the extra beat.
And of course waltz and vals are in 3, but I don't hear any 2 against 3
in vals. I sometimes hear it in Viennese waltz orchestrations.
Anyone can dance against the beat and improvise with these syncopated
rhythms. In any kind of dance. It just won't look like it belongs in
the dance, because it's not in the dance vocabulary -- ie, it will look
like "doing your own thing." I'm fine with that, do it all the time in
lindy hop and blues dancing. But it spoils the aesthetic for many.
CS
Bruno Afonso wrote:
Can you easily distinguish triplets in music you hear? Every kind of
music has them... even rock. I don't see how this will lead anyone
anywhere. syncopation is a much stronger tool to use as far as
creating timming "fun". Syncopating a triplet may make it not become
so much of a triplet anymore. The music sheet is a guide that
performers will either try to follow precisely or not.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
https://arborlaw.com
