4647 Milonguero style, style vs. technique
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 18:48:43 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Hello, everyone.
I have not been writing on Tango-L for years, but in the last few
weeks my curiosity has been sparked and so I decided to show
up. After all, these things to mean something.
A lot of focus of many discussions has been on the "style". I would
like to offer a different perspective than what has been discussed so far.
To me, there is a clear distinction between "technique" and "style".
Technique is universal. It wraps around the natural movement of a
human body. In tango, it is not ideal because that bodies are not
ideal and more unique in a sense that there is no strive for
perfection, where everyone looks the same. Even if a dancer has
limited mobility, such as due to arthritis, injuries, etc., a proper
technique can accommodate this and allow a great degree of freedom in
movement and musical interpretation. Technique connects the person
to their body in an intimate way. Technique is impersonal. It has
no purpose other than to help a dancer deliver the most expressive
and dynamic movement he/she can, using the natural properties of the
body (equilibrium, axis, flexibility strength, etc.) and the forces
(gravity, centripetal, centrifugal, torque, etc.). Technique is
about learning the properties of the dancing body and how to use them.
An analogy is sculpting in clay. If I know the properties of the
clay I am working with, I can and prefer to sculpt blindfolded. On
the other hand, if I do not know the properties of the material I am
using, then I need to see what it does under my fingers. I am not
attached to one way or another. It is just a matter of
functionality, of using the art supplies in the best possible way.
"Style" to me is something entirely different. Technique can exists
without style. It can be a perfect dance, but pure technique is cold.
My analogy is the story of Pygmalion. Style is a breath of life for
a technically perfect, but otherwise cold dance. Style is when
Galatea comes to life. So imagine if Pygmalion wished for a pile of
clay to become alive BEFORE he finished the beautiful female
form. What horror! There would be a pile of shapeless clay running
around in the world of myths!
My point it that style must be superimposed on the technique and
cannot exists without it. If a dancer tries to adopt a style PRIOR
to learning the unique technical properties of his or her body, the
style that he/she chooses will force such dancer into a state of
perpetual inconsequence, as far as his or her dance experience goes.
The term "Milonguero style" feels to me as offensive to all true
milongueros. As a generalization, it misses more than it
captures. Originally, it was a term that was meant to describe very
specific limitations. I learned this from a very well known person
in tango, who has been invisible to the world outside of
Argentina. The story goes like this:
In the late 80s/early90s, Susanna Miller coined the term "milonguero
style" to describe the focus of her classes, which at that time was a
quick training that would allow people to go to the milongas and be
able to dance in a very short amount of time.
As most people know, tango as a dance form is very demanding in
training and time. Many people do not want that. They just want to
learn enough to be acceptable in the milongas. This was what Susanna
Miller was offering. It was not about dancing well or developing
yourself through movement. The purpose was to know a few elements
that would allow the social experience of tango in a fairly crowded setting.
I think that this was useful. People want different things from
their tango experience. What I question is the eagerness of some
very serious dancers to embrace a term that implies so many limitations.
Many of you have seen Eduardo Capuzzi (I hope I spelled his name
correctly) and Marianna Flores dance (especially their vampire piece
to La Cumparcitay). They are very entertaining. Their dancing is
superbly stylized. But if you look very closely, they have
phenomenal technique. But it is never at the forefront of what we
see as an audience. It serves as a solid foundation to their chosen style.
Technique and style are not one and the same. Technique can be a
dance, but who with a beating heart would want it?! Style without
technique is a pile of shapeless clay running around in the milongas
without ever becoming a tango Galatea.
Warmest regards to everyone of you,
Nina
At 05:39 PM 11/2/2006, you wrote:
>Hi Igor,
>
>What I was hearing was people getting hung up on the label
>"milonguero-style". This appears to be a language issue,
>not an actual dance issue. When Timmy wrote his email,
>enough people knew what he was talking about. Which means
>that term is quite valid.
>
>I was also hearing people unfairly placing characteristics
>onto those who use the term, even though others who do not
>use the term can also have those very same characteristics.
>
>At the TangoFest recently, a friend of ours was amused to
>hear a well-known nuevo teacher complaining about how
>organizers keep bringing in teachers of different styles.
>The teacher thought that people should stick to one style.
>Gee, exactly what some on this list complain that another
>milonguero-style teacher says.
>
>I don't hear Republicans complaining that the Democrats
>labeling themselves as Democrats implies that the
>Republicans do not believe in democracy.
>
>Don't forget to vote on Tuesday.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> > Trini,
> > I do not think you are listening to other people.
> > You are a typical milonguero style dancer.
> >
> > And of course there are many other close embrace styles.
> > Example?
> > Canyengue.
> >
> > Igor
> >
> >
>
>
>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
>https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
>Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on
>the New Yahoo.com
>
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:23:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
Nice post, Nina.
Your story also matches my conversations with Susana. At
one point, Susana was assisting a well-known instructor,
but realized that what was being taught wasn't occurring on
the dance floor. So she started exploring what was
actually being danced in the milongas she attended. The
rest is history.
Something people may not connect is that dancers in earlier
times only knew a small selection of steps compared to what
people are learning today. People didn't travel to learn
tango, they took classes in their own barrios. Thus, each
barrio had a distinct style. Dancers became very good at
those few steps. This is also consistent with what Susana
teaches. So the vocabulary may be limited but the
technique for combining and executing that vocabulary can
go very deep.
Susana calls me an anthropologist because I am always
exploring different things. She'd prefer that I stick with
one style, but she appreciates my curiosity. If one stays
curious, one realizes that while some limitations are real,
some are just a state of mind, and some are choices.
What is interesting is that several of today's teachers are
trying not to categorize their style. Perhaps this is just
a reaction to the fighting over the labels currently used.
But I think this tendency may end up losing some of the
cultural significance and history to the tango to future
generations of tangueros. Time will tell.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> I have not been writing on Tango-L for years, but in the
> last few
> weeks my curiosity has been sparked and so I decided to
> show
> up. After all, these things to mean something.
>
> A lot of focus of many discussions has been on the
> "style". I would
> like to offer a different perspective than what has been
> discussed so far.
>
> To me, there is a clear distinction between "technique"
> and "style".
>
> Technique is universal. It wraps around the natural
> movement of a
> human body. In tango, it is not ideal because that
> bodies are not
> ideal and more unique in a sense that there is no strive
> for
> perfection, where everyone looks the same. Even if a
> dancer has
> limited mobility, such as due to arthritis, injuries,
> etc., a proper
> technique can accommodate this and allow a great degree
> of freedom in
> movement and musical interpretation. Technique connects
> the person
> to their body in an intimate way. Technique is
> impersonal. It has
> no purpose other than to help a dancer deliver the most
> expressive
> and dynamic movement he/she can, using the natural
> properties of the
> body (equilibrium, axis, flexibility strength, etc.) and
> the forces
> (gravity, centripetal, centrifugal, torque, etc.).
> Technique is
> about learning the properties of the dancing body and how
> to use them.
>
> An analogy is sculpting in clay. If I know the
> properties of the
> clay I am working with, I can and prefer to sculpt
> blindfolded. On
> the other hand, if I do not know the properties of the
> material I am
> using, then I need to see what it does under my fingers.
> I am not
> attached to one way or another. It is just a matter of
> functionality, of using the art supplies in the best
> possible way.
>
> "Style" to me is something entirely different. Technique
> can exists
> without style. It can be a perfect dance, but pure
> technique is cold.
>
> My analogy is the story of Pygmalion. Style is a breath
> of life for
> a technically perfect, but otherwise cold dance. Style
> is when
> Galatea comes to life. So imagine if Pygmalion wished
> for a pile of
> clay to become alive BEFORE he finished the beautiful
> female
> form. What horror! There would be a pile of shapeless
> clay running
> around in the world of myths!
>
> My point it that style must be superimposed on the
> technique and
> cannot exists without it. If a dancer tries to adopt a
> style PRIOR
> to learning the unique technical properties of his or her
> body, the
> style that he/she chooses will force such dancer into a
> state of
> perpetual inconsequence, as far as his or her dance
> experience goes.
>
> The term "Milonguero style" feels to me as offensive to
> all true
> milongueros. As a generalization, it misses more than it
>
> captures. Originally, it was a term that was meant to
> describe very
> specific limitations. I learned this from a very well
> known person
> in tango, who has been invisible to the world outside of
> Argentina. The story goes like this:
>
> In the late 80s/early90s, Susanna Miller coined the term
> "milonguero
> style" to describe the focus of her classes, which at
> that time was a
> quick training that would allow people to go to the
> milongas and be
> able to dance in a very short amount of time.
>
> As most people know, tango as a dance form is very
> demanding in
> training and time. Many people do not want that. They
> just want to
> learn enough to be acceptable in the milongas. This was
> what Susanna
> Miller was offering. It was not about dancing well or
> developing
> yourself through movement. The purpose was to know a few
> elements
> that would allow the social experience of tango in a
> fairly crowded setting.
>
> I think that this was useful. People want different
> things from
> their tango experience. What I question is the eagerness
> of some
> very serious dancers to embrace a term that implies so
> many limitations.
>
> Many of you have seen Eduardo Capuzzi (I hope I spelled
> his name
> correctly) and Marianna Flores dance (especially their
> vampire piece
> to La Cumparcitay). They are very entertaining. Their
> dancing is
> superbly stylized. But if you look very closely, they
> have
> phenomenal technique. But it is never at the forefront
> of what we
> see as an audience. It serves as a solid foundation to
> their chosen style.
>
> Technique and style are not one and the same. Technique
> can be a
> dance, but who with a beating heart would want it?!
> Style without
> technique is a pile of shapeless clay running around in
> the milongas
> without ever becoming a tango Galatea.
>
> Warmest regards to everyone of you,
>
> Nina
>
>
> At 05:39 PM 11/2/2006, you wrote:
> >Hi Igor,
> >
> >What I was hearing was people getting hung up on the
> label
> >"milonguero-style". This appears to be a language
> issue,
> >not an actual dance issue. When Timmy wrote his email,
> >enough people knew what he was talking about. Which
> means
> >that term is quite valid.
> >
> >I was also hearing people unfairly placing
> characteristics
> >onto those who use the term, even though others who do
> not
> >use the term can also have those very same
> characteristics.
> >
> >At the TangoFest recently, a friend of ours was amused
> to
> >hear a well-known nuevo teacher complaining about how
> >organizers keep bringing in teachers of different
> styles.
> >The teacher thought that people should stick to one
> style.
> >Gee, exactly what some on this list complain that
> another
> >milonguero-style teacher says.
> >
> >I don't hear Republicans complaining that the Democrats
> >labeling themselves as Democrats implies that the
> >Republicans do not believe in democracy.
> >
> >Don't forget to vote on Tuesday.
> >
> >Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> >
> >--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Trini,
> > > I do not think you are listening to other people.
> > > You are a typical milonguero style dancer.
> > >
> > > And of course there are many other close embrace
> styles.
> > > Example?
> > > Canyengue.
> > >
> > > Igor
> > >
>
=== message truncated ===
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 09:34:44 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Nina's writing about Technique vs. Style is interesting and I guess reflects
the point of view of an artist.
I am an engineer. Though I agree with what Nina say, I look at the things
from slightly different angle.
There are techniques which contradict each other. For example, do you dance
without lean at all, or in very deep and strong lean like in Canyengue? And
there is a whole scale of variations of the amount and point of contact
application: from chest to belly (and even heap), from "directly in front"
to "to the side".
Taking one of the position, and trying to dance the whole dance in it you
will find that it demands certain changing of technique for every elements:
they are done differently. The very basic design principle builds the style
in relation to this basis. It may call for new types of artistic expressions
and forbid others.
It is like material what an artist will use: marble or granite - the outcome
will be different.
Another example is what element you take as a structural basis of the dance:
straight walk, ocho-cortado, molinete ( that is Tango Nuevo ), boleo. The
outcome is going to be different.
Pattern and amount of energy flow, rhythmical patters, (sharp or slow),
certain types of bodies ( long and slim or short and chubby), amount and
type of the dance floor, all can define styles.
There is another aspect of what defines style like Trini and Nina mentioned:
social. In certain areas, in certain clubs they tend to dance more or less
similarly, with time creating what could be called the style of this club,
place or this epoch. Especially where dance carries a certain social
function.
Going deeper, every recognizable dancer has his own style. Jake's thought is
still in my mind: call the styles by the names of great dancers. It is very
clear and they deserve it. ( Milonguero style - it is "Susana Miller's"
style to be frank ). It reflects deep and systematic thinking and working on
the dance, the independent, individual contribution to the art and science
of the dance.
Emotions play their role in style definition, but that mostly is dictated by
music, and only the best of the dancers can manipulate well with it.
See? Millions of styles ! Dozens of types of what is a style !!!
Igor Polk.
PS. When people attend to "How to dance to D'Arienzo" type of lessons, that
is the styles what they learn.
Or supposed to.
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:27 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Trini wrote:
> dancers in earlier times ... took classes in their own barrios.
Dancers in earlier times did not take classes. They learnt in practicas.
Tango classes - and teachers - are merely a recent invention. As Christine
Denniston wrote on the subject of learning in the Golden Age v. today:
there was no such thing as a Tango teacher and no such thing as a
beginners' Tango class before the Tango revival began in the mid 1980s.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
*From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
*Date:* Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:23:20 -0800 (PST)
Nice post, Nina.
Your story also matches my conversations with Susana. At
one point, Susana was assisting a well-known instructor,
but realized that what was being taught wasn't occurring on
the dance floor. So she started exploring what was
actually being danced in the milongas she attended. The
rest is history.
Something people may not connect is that dancers in earlier
times only knew a small selection of steps compared to what
people are learning today. People didn't travel to learn
tango, they took classes in their own barrios. Thus, each
barrio had a distinct style. Dancers became very good at
those few steps. This is also consistent with what Susana
teaches. So the vocabulary may be limited but the
technique for combining and executing that vocabulary can
go very deep.
Susana calls me an anthropologist because I am always
exploring different things. She'd prefer that I stick with
one style, but she appreciates my curiosity. If one stays
curious, one realizes that while some limitations are real,
some are just a state of mind, and some are choices.
What is interesting is that several of today's teachers are
trying not to categorize their style. Perhaps this is just
a reaction to the fighting over the labels currently used.
But I think this tendency may end up losing some of the
cultural significance and history to the tango to future
generations of tangueros. Time will tell.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> I have not been writing on Tango-L for years, but in the
> last few
> weeks my curiosity has been sparked and so I decided to
> show
> up. After all, these things to mean something.
>
> A lot of focus of many discussions has been on the
> "style". I would
> like to offer a different perspective than what has been
> discussed so far.
>
> To me, there is a clear distinction between "technique"
> and "style".
>
> Technique is universal. It wraps around the natural
> movement of a
> human body. In tango, it is not ideal because that
> bodies are not
> ideal and more unique in a sense that there is no strive
> for
> perfection, where everyone looks the same. Even if a
> dancer has
> limited mobility, such as due to arthritis, injuries,
> etc., a proper
> technique can accommodate this and allow a great degree
> of freedom in
> movement and musical interpretation. Technique connects
> the person
> to their body in an intimate way. Technique is
> impersonal. It has
> no purpose other than to help a dancer deliver the most
> expressive
> and dynamic movement he/she can, using the natural
> properties of the
> body (equilibrium, axis, flexibility strength, etc.) and
> the forces
> (gravity, centripetal, centrifugal, torque, etc.).
> Technique is
> about learning the properties of the dancing body and how
> to use them.
>
> An analogy is sculpting in clay. If I know the
> properties of the
> clay I am working with, I can and prefer to sculpt
> blindfolded. On
> the other hand, if I do not know the properties of the
> material I am
> using, then I need to see what it does under my fingers.
> I am not
> attached to one way or another. It is just a matter of
> functionality, of using the art supplies in the best
> possible way.
>
> "Style" to me is something entirely different. Technique
> can exists
> without style. It can be a perfect dance, but pure
> technique is cold.
>
> My analogy is the story of Pygmalion. Style is a breath
> of life for
> a technically perfect, but otherwise cold dance. Style
> is when
> Galatea comes to life. So imagine if Pygmalion wished
> for a pile of
> clay to become alive BEFORE he finished the beautiful
> female
> form. What horror! There would be a pile of shapeless
> clay running
> around in the world of myths!
>
> My point it that style must be superimposed on the
> technique and
> cannot exists without it. If a dancer tries to adopt a
> style PRIOR
> to learning the unique technical properties of his or her
> body, the
> style that he/she chooses will force such dancer into a
> state of
> perpetual inconsequence, as far as his or her dance
> experience goes.
>
> The term "Milonguero style" feels to me as offensive to
> all true
> milongueros. As a generalization, it misses more than it
>
> captures. Originally, it was a term that was meant to
> describe very
> specific limitations. I learned this from a very well
> known person
> in tango, who has been invisible to the world outside of
> Argentina. The story goes like this:
>
> In the late 80s/early90s, Susanna Miller coined the term
> "milonguero
> style" to describe the focus of her classes, which at
> that time was a
> quick training that would allow people to go to the
> milongas and be
> able to dance in a very short amount of time.
>
> As most people know, tango as a dance form is very
> demanding in
> training and time. Many people do not want that. They
> just want to
> learn enough to be acceptable in the milongas. This was
> what Susanna
> Miller was offering. It was not about dancing well or
> developing
> yourself through movement. The purpose was to know a few
> elements
> that would allow the social experience of tango in a
> fairly crowded setting.
>
> I think that this was useful. People want different
> things from
> their tango experience. What I question is the eagerness
> of some
> very serious dancers to embrace a term that implies so
> many limitations.
>
> Many of you have seen Eduardo Capuzzi (I hope I spelled
> his name
> correctly) and Marianna Flores dance (especially their
> vampire piece
> to La Cumparcitay). They are very entertaining. Their
> dancing is
> superbly stylized. But if you look very closely, they
> have
> phenomenal technique. But it is never at the forefront
> of what we
> see as an audience. It serves as a solid foundation to
> their chosen style.
>
> Technique and style are not one and the same. Technique
> can be a
> dance, but who with a beating heart would want it?!
> Style without
> technique is a pile of shapeless clay running around in
> the milongas
> without ever becoming a tango Galatea.
>
> Warmest regards to everyone of you,
>
> Nina
>
>
> At 05:39 PM 11/2/2006, you wrote:
> >Hi Igor,
> >
> >What I was hearing was people getting hung up on the
> label
> >"milonguero-style". This appears to be a language
> issue,
> >not an actual dance issue. When Timmy wrote his email,
> >enough people knew what he was talking about. Which
> means
> >that term is quite valid.
> >
> >I was also hearing people unfairly placing
> characteristics
> >onto those who use the term, even though others who do
> not
> >use the term can also have those very same
> characteristics.
> >
> >At the TangoFest recently, a friend of ours was amused
> to
> >hear a well-known nuevo teacher complaining about how
> >organizers keep bringing in teachers of different
> styles.
> >The teacher thought that people should stick to one
> style.
> >Gee, exactly what some on this list complain that
> another
> >milonguero-style teacher says.
> >
> >I don't hear Republicans complaining that the Democrats
> >labeling themselves as Democrats implies that the
> >Republicans do not believe in democracy.
> >
> >Don't forget to vote on Tuesday.
> >
> >Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> >
> >--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Trini,
> > > I do not think you are listening to other people.
> > > You are a typical milonguero style dancer.
> > >
> > > And of course there are many other close embrace
> styles.
> > > Example?
> > > Canyengue.
> > >
> > > Igor
> > >
>
=== message truncated ===
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
______________
things done faster.
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 09:53:26 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Chris, UK wrote:
> Trini wrote:
>
>
>> dancers in earlier times ... took classes in their own barrios.
>>
>
> Dancers in earlier times did not take classes. They learnt in practicas.
>
There are multiple accounts of highly regarded professional
teachers of tango, with their own studios, during the Guardia
Vieja and Golden Age periods.
So this isn't precisely true.
> Tango classes - and teachers - are merely a recent invention. As Christine
> Denniston wrote on the subject of learning in the Golden Age v. today:
>
> there was no such thing as a Tango teacher and no such thing as a
> beginners' Tango class before the Tango revival began in the mid 1980s.
>
>
I am prepared to concede that your average dancer back in the
day didn't take formal group classes. Instead, he got private
lessons (for free) from more advanced dancers.
If you want to go that route, let's also recognize that the state
of the dance isn't what it used to be. There is simply no way
that I would allow 95% of the people out there to have verbal
input into my dance. That would include people who are
taking money for teaching tango as well.
However, there is a select group of people who understand
the difference between style and technique in modern tango,
who dance as they teach, who understand how steps have to
change for specific bodies, and know how to communicate
what they teach. My suggestion is that a one private lesson
from such a person is worth about 5 group classes, and worth
much more if you receive corrections to fundamental errors.
Often, such people aren't the best dancers in the world.
A wholesale aversion to people teaching isn't the answer,
and neither is taking 2 group classes a day from the name
brand flavors of the day.
Christopher
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
> *From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> *Date:* Fri, 3 Nov 2006 08:23:20 -0800 (PST)
>
> Nice post, Nina.
>
> Your story also matches my conversations with Susana. At
> one point, Susana was assisting a well-known instructor,
> but realized that what was being taught wasn't occurring on
> the dance floor. So she started exploring what was
> actually being danced in the milongas she attended. The
> rest is history.
>
> Something people may not connect is that dancers in earlier
> times only knew a small selection of steps compared to what
> people are learning today. People didn't travel to learn
> tango, they took classes in their own barrios. Thus, each
> barrio had a distinct style. Dancers became very good at
> those few steps. This is also consistent with what Susana
> teaches. So the vocabulary may be limited but the
> technique for combining and executing that vocabulary can
> go very deep.
>
> Susana calls me an anthropologist because I am always
> exploring different things. She'd prefer that I stick with
> one style, but she appreciates my curiosity. If one stays
> curious, one realizes that while some limitations are real,
> some are just a state of mind, and some are choices.
>
> What is interesting is that several of today's teachers are
> trying not to categorize their style. Perhaps this is just
> a reaction to the fighting over the labels currently used.
> But I think this tendency may end up losing some of the
> cultural significance and history to the tango to future
> generations of tangueros. Time will tell.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Hello, everyone.
>>
>> I have not been writing on Tango-L for years, but in the
>> last few
>> weeks my curiosity has been sparked and so I decided to
>> show
>> up. After all, these things to mean something.
>>
>> A lot of focus of many discussions has been on the
>> "style". I would
>> like to offer a different perspective than what has been
>> discussed so far.
>>
>> To me, there is a clear distinction between "technique"
>> and "style".
>>
>> Technique is universal. It wraps around the natural
>> movement of a
>> human body. In tango, it is not ideal because that
>> bodies are not
>> ideal and more unique in a sense that there is no strive
>> for
>> perfection, where everyone looks the same. Even if a
>> dancer has
>> limited mobility, such as due to arthritis, injuries,
>> etc., a proper
>> technique can accommodate this and allow a great degree
>> of freedom in
>> movement and musical interpretation. Technique connects
>> the person
>> to their body in an intimate way. Technique is
>> impersonal. It has
>> no purpose other than to help a dancer deliver the most
>> expressive
>> and dynamic movement he/she can, using the natural
>> properties of the
>> body (equilibrium, axis, flexibility strength, etc.) and
>> the forces
>> (gravity, centripetal, centrifugal, torque, etc.).
>> Technique is
>> about learning the properties of the dancing body and how
>> to use them.
>>
>> An analogy is sculpting in clay. If I know the
>> properties of the
>> clay I am working with, I can and prefer to sculpt
>> blindfolded. On
>> the other hand, if I do not know the properties of the
>> material I am
>> using, then I need to see what it does under my fingers.
>> I am not
>> attached to one way or another. It is just a matter of
>> functionality, of using the art supplies in the best
>> possible way.
>>
>> "Style" to me is something entirely different. Technique
>> can exists
>> without style. It can be a perfect dance, but pure
>> technique is cold.
>>
>> My analogy is the story of Pygmalion. Style is a breath
>> of life for
>> a technically perfect, but otherwise cold dance. Style
>> is when
>> Galatea comes to life. So imagine if Pygmalion wished
>> for a pile of
>> clay to become alive BEFORE he finished the beautiful
>> female
>> form. What horror! There would be a pile of shapeless
>> clay running
>> around in the world of myths!
>>
>> My point it that style must be superimposed on the
>> technique and
>> cannot exists without it. If a dancer tries to adopt a
>> style PRIOR
>> to learning the unique technical properties of his or her
>> body, the
>> style that he/she chooses will force such dancer into a
>> state of
>> perpetual inconsequence, as far as his or her dance
>> experience goes.
>>
>> The term "Milonguero style" feels to me as offensive to
>> all true
>> milongueros. As a generalization, it misses more than it
>>
>> captures. Originally, it was a term that was meant to
>> describe very
>> specific limitations. I learned this from a very well
>> known person
>> in tango, who has been invisible to the world outside of
>> Argentina. The story goes like this:
>>
>> In the late 80s/early90s, Susanna Miller coined the term
>> "milonguero
>> style" to describe the focus of her classes, which at
>> that time was a
>> quick training that would allow people to go to the
>> milongas and be
>> able to dance in a very short amount of time.
>>
>> As most people know, tango as a dance form is very
>> demanding in
>> training and time. Many people do not want that. They
>> just want to
>> learn enough to be acceptable in the milongas. This was
>> what Susanna
>> Miller was offering. It was not about dancing well or
>> developing
>> yourself through movement. The purpose was to know a few
>> elements
>> that would allow the social experience of tango in a
>> fairly crowded setting.
>>
>> I think that this was useful. People want different
>> things from
>> their tango experience. What I question is the eagerness
>> of some
>> very serious dancers to embrace a term that implies so
>> many limitations.
>>
>> Many of you have seen Eduardo Capuzzi (I hope I spelled
>> his name
>> correctly) and Marianna Flores dance (especially their
>> vampire piece
>> to La Cumparcitay). They are very entertaining. Their
>> dancing is
>> superbly stylized. But if you look very closely, they
>> have
>> phenomenal technique. But it is never at the forefront
>> of what we
>> see as an audience. It serves as a solid foundation to
>> their chosen style.
>>
>> Technique and style are not one and the same. Technique
>> can be a
>> dance, but who with a beating heart would want it?!
>> Style without
>> technique is a pile of shapeless clay running around in
>> the milongas
>> without ever becoming a tango Galatea.
>>
>> Warmest regards to everyone of you,
>>
>> Nina
>>
>>
>> At 05:39 PM 11/2/2006, you wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Igor,
>>>
>>> What I was hearing was people getting hung up on the
>>>
>> label
>>
>>> "milonguero-style". This appears to be a language
>>>
>> issue,
>>
>>> not an actual dance issue. When Timmy wrote his email,
>>> enough people knew what he was talking about. Which
>>>
>> means
>>
>>> that term is quite valid.
>>>
>>> I was also hearing people unfairly placing
>>>
>> characteristics
>>
>>> onto those who use the term, even though others who do
>>>
>> not
>>
>>> use the term can also have those very same
>>>
>> characteristics.
>>
>>> At the TangoFest recently, a friend of ours was amused
>>>
>> to
>>
>>> hear a well-known nuevo teacher complaining about how
>>> organizers keep bringing in teachers of different
>>>
>> styles.
>>
>>> The teacher thought that people should stick to one
>>>
>> style.
>>
>>> Gee, exactly what some on this list complain that
>>>
>> another
>>
>>> milonguero-style teacher says.
>>>
>>> I don't hear Republicans complaining that the Democrats
>>> labeling themselves as Democrats implies that the
>>> Republicans do not believe in democracy.
>>>
>>> Don't forget to vote on Tuesday.
>>>
>>> Trini de Pittsburgh
>>>
>>>
>>> --- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Trini,
>>>> I do not think you are listening to other people.
>>>> You are a typical milonguero style dancer.
>>>>
>>>> And of course there are many other close embrace
>>>>
>> styles.
>>
>>>> Example?
>>>> Canyengue.
>>>>
>>>> Igor
>>>>
>>>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
> dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
> ______________
> things done faster.
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 09:56:06 -0800
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Tango classes - and teachers - are merely a recent invention. As Christine
Denniston wrote on the subject of learning in the Golden Age v. today:
there was no such thing as a Tango teacher and no such thing as a
beginners' Tango class before the Tango revival began in the mid 1980s.<
May be not entirely true!
Some historical accounts:
The concept of formal tango instruction appeared to have been initiated I
Buenos Aires after tango became popular in Paris. In Paris, 1912 the historian
Andres Carretero lists about 100 tango academies or schools. This trend of
formal Tango instruction was copied in Buenos Aires. In 1917 at the Grand Tango
Ball opened in Buenos Aires for the upscale classes tango dancers were taught
by tangos instructors named Castro and Silva.
Thanks to the open mindset of Parisians tango left its references by the Buenos
Aires upscale classes as the dance of ruffians and prostitutes.
In 1914, Manuel Gil de Oto, Spanish writer and traveler, points out in one of
his books that thanks to the French prostitutes, who commuted by boat between
Paris and Buenos Aires, Tango was taught and introduced in Paris.
Before the 1900's the ports of Cadiz, Cuba, Lima, Santiago, Buenos Aires, and
Montevideo were frequented by Cuban sailors who spread the word on what was in
fashion in music and dance during their stops in Buenos Aires and Montevideo.
The Cuban sailors may have served as surrogate dance instructors to local
Buenos Aires dancers by contributing with their knowledge of dance figures from
other dances. Then the Buenos Aires dancers in reference were marginalized as
ruffians and prostitutes by upscale classes in Buenos Aires.
Some reference to tango style:
1. The apache (tango) dance (apache means pimp), which it was an acrobatic
dance meant for the stage in the circus circuit.
2. The tango orillero (danced by compadritos or compadres).
3. The tango salon.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 20:38 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Christopher wrote:
> > Dancers in earlier times did not take classes.
>
> There are multiple accounts of highly regarded professional
> teachers of tango, ... So this isn't precisely true.
The existence of multiple conflicting accounts disproves none of them.
Anyone interested might like to read Christine's www.history-of-tango.com .
> there is a select group of people who understand the difference between
> style and technique in modern tango, who dance as they teach, who
> understand how steps have to change for specific bodies, and know ...
Agreed 100%.
> My suggestion is that a one private lesson from such a person is worth
> about 5 group classes
It's worth is more like /minus/ five group classes hereabouts, since the
value of the average group class is negative. Tango classes are mostly
adapted to the needs of the eternal "intermediates" and step collectors.
Those actually learning to dance are elsewhere.
When a beginners asks for advice I always recommend private lessons.
He/she soon experiences first hand that learning by dancing with someone
who can dance is about 100x as productive as learning by dancing with
someone who cannot.
Chris
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 14:22:04 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: tl2@chrisjj.com, TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Chris, UK wrote:
> Tango classes are mostly
> adapted to the needs of the eternal "intermediates" and step collectors.
Not all. There are those that will teach "steps" or "sequences" only because
they teach you something - appealing to both "step collectors" *and*
people who want to learn how to dance alike.
Of course, you'll usually still be able to pick out the step collectors from
the others, even after they've followed exactly the same classes, because
they'll just check off a box before they've really understood what a step
was all about ;).
Of course, the *really* rabid "step collectors" won't touch these classes with
a ten foot pole, because the steps are usually "too simple", if only because
it's impossible to grasp the essence of a sequence when too much is
happening.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 10:35:08 -0500
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: "Alexis Cousein" <al@sgi.com>
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com, tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970611060735s74f7dcf4xf35b657b38201dda@mail.gmail.com>
My experience has been that teachers often use some 'step' or even a 'step
sequence' as a means to teach some movement such as a gancho or sacada. I
suppose some see the point as learning the sequence, but I don't think that
is what the teachers are trying to get across. They are trying to show the
correct posture, technique, style, musical possibilities of a particular
movement and use some step or sequence to demonstrate possibilities for it's
use. Also, if it is a group class, then it is easier for the instructor to
watch the entire group and observe who is 'getting it' and who is struggling
if for the most part, everyone is doing the same sequence or steps. It makes
it easier for the instructor to spot who is 'out of sync'. I don't ever take
away from the class that I am suppose to now go to a milonga and dance the
sequence or steps as taught in the class, but rather apply the movement
properly as the music, floor conditions, my partner, my mood, allow. Just my
2 cents, I am not trying to suggest other points of view are not just as
valid.
Ed
On 11/6/06, Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
>
> Chris, UK wrote:
> > Tango classes are mostly
> > adapted to the needs of the eternal "intermediates" and step collectors.
>
> Not all. There are those that will teach "steps" or "sequences" only
> because
> they teach you something - appealing to both "step collectors" *and*
> people who want to learn how to dance alike.
>
> Of course, you'll usually still be able to pick out the step collectors
> from
> the others, even after they've followed exactly the same classes, because
> they'll just check off a box before they've really understood what a step
> was all about ;).
>
> Of course, the *really* rabid "step collectors" won't touch these classes
> with
> a ten foot pole, because the steps are usually "too simple", if only
> because
> it's impossible to grasp the essence of a sequence when too much is
> happening.
>
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
> Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
> --
> <If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
>
>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 12:36:44 -0500
From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers@brandeis.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
<dfa4cf020611060936r6897cb18oc0ec4d554ad82074@mail.gmail.com>
Why is it that classes around subjects like subtleties, nuance, technique
are over attended by followers, and classes around colgadas or lifts are
usually over attended by leaders?
Has anyone here every tried to trick leaders into attending a workshop that
will focus on some of important basics? for example, a class on colgadas has
the first hour spent on exercises to strengthen the skills needed for
colgadas, and only the last 15-30 minutes gets spent on the colgada.
I've seen this sort of thing done with great success. It's also the type of
class I find more useful to all levels. Often times classes on moves like
colgadas are fairly useless to students who already know how to do them and
are looking to improve their feel. The problem is that the majority of the
class cannot do colgadas with any consitency, so the class is directed to
the big adjustments rather than the subtle hidden pieces that are need to
make a move like that feel perfect. It is almost impossible to avoid
catering the lowest common denominator because the people having the most
problems are the ones who ask for the most help from the instructor. When
many instructors see someone doing the move successfully, they say, "good"
and move on to the next person.
However, a class practicing the basics is useful to a wider range of levels.
Everyone could use more time practicing the basics, the top dancers in the
world are the ones who spend the most time practicing the basics. The
instructor then has more time to go from student to student helping to turn
a walk into heaven. Plus, it's much easier to do a difficult move after
having spent time warming up.
j
On 11/6/06, Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
>
> Chris, UK wrote:
> > Tango classes are mostly
> > adapted to the needs of the eternal "intermediates" and step collectors.
>
> Not all. There are those that will teach "steps" or "sequences" only
> because
> they teach you something - appealing to both "step collectors" *and*
> people who want to learn how to dance alike.
>
> Of course, you'll usually still be able to pick out the step collectors
> from
> the others, even after they've followed exactly the same classes, because
> they'll just check off a box before they've really understood what a step
> was all about ;).
>
> Of course, the *really* rabid "step collectors" won't touch these classes
> with
> a ten foot pole, because the steps are usually "too simple", if only
> because
> it's impossible to grasp the essence of a sequence when too much is
> happening.
>
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
> Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
> --
> <If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
>
>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 10:13:17 -0800
From: "megan pingree" <meganpingree@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
To: <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
HI Jacob et al
I wouldn't call it tricking becuz we (my co-teacher, Bill, and I) label it exactly what it is. For example "Working Towards Boleos", and "Working Towards Cadenas". We will teach whatever it takes to lay the foundation for the goal. In the 4 week "Working Towards Boleos" series, we eventually got to sweet little floor boleos. But the emphasis of the series was on ochos, pivoting, axis awareness, lead:follow micro sensitivity, etc.
(I am referring above to a series class, and Jacob was asking about a workshop, but it seems to me that the same concept applies to both.)
2 more cents, Megan Pingree (west coast Portland)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jacob Eggers
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonguero style, style vs. technique
...........
Has anyone here every tried to trick leaders into attending a workshop that
will focus on some of important basics? for example, a class on colgadas has
the first hour spent on exercises to strengthen the skills needed for
colgadas, and only the last 15-30 minutes gets spent on the colgada.
.............................
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2006 21:32:52 -0500
From: "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Style vs. technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Ed Doyle wrote:
"My experience has been that teachers often use some 'step' or even a 'step sequence' as a means to teach some movement such as a gancho or sacada. I suppose some see the point as learning the sequence, but I don't think that is what the teachers are trying to get across. They are trying to show the correct posture, technique, style, musical possibilities of a particular movement and use some step or sequence to demonstrate possibilities for it's use. I don't ever take away from the class that I am suppose to now go to a milonga and dance the sequence or steps as taught in the class, but rather apply the movement properly as the music, floor conditions, my partner, my mood, allow. Just my 2 cents, I am not trying to suggest other points of view are not just as valid."
Thanks Ed; at last a word from someone who understands what group classes are supposed to be about. We're not children being spoonfed information, i.e steps and sequences, by a Tango instructor. It's up to each of us to take from a class what he/she wants. If the instructor teaches a sequence - go away after the class, break the sequence down, keep what you like and discard what you don't like. If you're not interested in the sequence, concentrate, as Ed says, on the posture, technique, style, musical possibilities, etc. - whatever it is you want. Just use some intelligence and you can learn something from every class you attend. My view has always been that it's the students' responsibility to learn. A teacher can teach, but he can't force anyone to learn. Example: Chris, UK.
Keith
