31 Moulin Rouge
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:57:01 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Moulin Rouge
Why has there not been any discussion
on this list of (plus or minus 1100 strong,
worldwide) about this movie?
While I had seen the earlier version of the
Australian producer's "Strictly Ballroom"
and thought it was wildly fun, I noticed that
it totally omitted any Argentine Tango, and
I always thought that this omission was a loss.
Well, guess what? Did anyone see what
happened on the latest spectacle?
BIG, IN YOUR FACE, ARGENTINE TANGO!
And, as the Argentine character in the movie says
to the main male lead: I told you not to fall in love
with a woman who sells herself, because it always
turns out badly.
There is a huge amount of women in North America
in tango that have come from bad marriages, and
even worse divorces, who absolultely hate men!
These women are not happy, but are looking to
"get" a man. And, these women are MEAN about
their methods. They don't mince words when they
say that they "will get their milonga" from that guy.
Good luck, guys.
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:54:09 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Moulin Rouge
--- Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> There is a huge amount of women in North America
> in tango that have come from bad marriages, and
> even worse divorces, who absolultely hate men!
> These women are not happy, but are looking to
> "get" a man. And, these women are MEAN about
> their methods. They don't mince words when they
> say that they "will get their milonga" from that
> guy.
Is that true? Will any of those women stand up and be
counted? I don't even understand what that means. If
they hate men, how do they express it in tango? By
chasing him to dance with him, and then criticizing
and belittling him, or what?
Mark
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:53:38 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Moulin Rouge/Huh?
----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:06:17 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Men's Motives (was Moulin Rouge)
--- Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> As to the wicked, wicked women from miserable
> marriages, etc, I guess I
> wonder where we think the MEN in tango come
> from.......and do we really want
> to start an investigation into THEIR motives for
> dancing?......just
> asking.....
I don't think Melinda was asking us to reveal our
motives. She might be suggesting they're unsavory!
;-)
But how about it guys. Why do we dance?
I connect with the dolorous spirit of a lot of the
music. It affords me the opportunity to take some of
the energy I have relating to certain unfortunate
events in my life and transform it into something
positive and joyous.
It's also social, so I'm going out and having fun
instead of languishing at home fretting.
I'm more in touch with my body, discovering all sorts
of fun things to do, and changing how I look, and
expressing myself in a new way.
I'm not expressly seeking romantic or sexual
involvement, but I certainly enjoy the flirting.
I like all the lovely partners I dance with, but tango
also happens to be a bonanza of beautiful women over
40, and if some men spend their time chasing after
younger women it gives me a chance to sneak up on
their wives! Yayyyyy
Mark
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:38:46 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Moulin Rouge/Huh?
Melinda writes:
> What I have observed, on a regular basis, is men using tango to
> meet women for sex (yes, yes, I'm sure it works both ways). The women,
> being women (sigh) regard the tango as great foreplay and assume the sex
> means more than it does. When they discover their error, they are
> embarassed and stop coming to tango. It hurts the tango community, but the
> men just continue happily along behaving badly.
As it happens, I find tango fascinating in and of itself. Anything
more that might come out of that is just icing on the cake as far as I'm
concerned, but if someone else wants to make procuring a sex partner their
primary goal in tango, well I guess to each his own. I prefer reserving
tango as an escape from all that emotional roller-coaster stuff rather
than a cause of it.
In spite of that, I must say I find your paragraph above to be
a little inconsistent. You use the word "assume," which means that
nothing more was promised by the men involved, and you use the word
"error," which means the women indeed made a mistake to assume when
nothing additional was offered, but then you turn around and
characterize the men as "behaving badly."
Now clearly, if men are going around promising undying love and
then reneging, they are indeed behaving badly. But that doesn't appear
to be the case here, at least from what you've written.
Huck
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:49:14 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Moulin Rouge/Huh?
----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:05:05 -0700
From: Sergio <sergio@NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Moulin Rouge/Huh.
"In the end, it hurts tango communities, because women who are
embarrassed will not return to the classes or milongas. I can think of a
dozen we lost over the last few years. I'm not suggesting there is anything
to be done about this common human behavior, just commenting on it..."
Melinda refers to women and men encounters in tango and their romantic exchanges.
Tango is a philosophy of life transformed into a dance. We have discussed, partially at least, how cultural elements are represented in =
the dance. Roles..., man and woman, one strong, poised, his legs firm on the floor, knows where he wants to go and leads, the other receptive, =
small, weak, sensitive, emotional, full of equilibrium and harmony allows him to lead. She looks for sanctuary in his chest, trustingly =
allows him to embrace her, her feminine body firmly surrounded by his strong right arm. He becomes a lover but also a father and protector. =
She follows. They dance.
The music stops and the embrace is dissolved, both man and woman separate, they actually step apart, they become independent again. They =
wait for the next tango...
Argentineans in general when meeting estrangers do not ask personal questions, it is up to each one individually to volunteer information =
about their lives. They are frequently very open in this respect.
At the milongas this customs acquires a very special meaning. The milonga is a world in itself, the external universe is left behind.
Here each person is only...a man and a woman. It does not matter who they are, what their education is, what occupation they have, how old or =
young. They are there just for one thing ...to dance, a man and a woman the rest is unimportant. Personal problems, bills to pay, the sorrows =
and preoccupations of daily life are left outside. The main reason to come to the milonga is to dance, therefore not the best place to look =
for sex. Sex may find us unexpectedly, but one did not go there looking for that.
Men and women try to keep their personal lives separated from the tango world.
When romance strikes in a middle of a tango the relationship that develops is kept outside as much as possible.
Sometimes this is not possible, the result is that one or both will be hurt and worse of all might have to quit coming to the milongas.
This is the prevalent culture in the *traditional salons* in Bs.As . But... there is place for everything and for everybody as you know, many =
confiterias, milonguero style, are very conducive to romantic encounters leading to fulfilling your most secret fantasies.:0)
So in summary... is best to keep sex and milongas apart... or not?
So Melinda when I described the ritualistic preparation to go to the milonga, shower, elegant suit, right type of perfume, mints, etc,
and you said - you forgot condoms-. I did not forget! ... but I agree with you it is better to have them...just in case who knows?.
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 21:52:42 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Moulin Rouge
Since I get the list in the digest format, I don't
know yet about all the answers regarding my
message. But some people have sent some
postings and included me as a "cc" so I can
see some of the conversation.
Funny, they were all men (except Heather, and
I found out that Paso Doble which was the most
important scene in "Strictly Ballroom" is only done
to a handful of songs, and totally choreographed
always, bummer...) I really loved that scene...
There was a message from Brian Dunn and I did
see that message. Brian does not own the list.
And although he did not see the movie, he figured
that I had experienced something that triggered
my posting, not having to do with the movie.
Now, it appears from Brian's posting that another
guy named Mark Sussex had a posting that I haven't
yet seen the whole of. Well, I'm sure I must be seen
to be the idiot.
It is fine for the guys to answer me and tell me that
I am not exactly clear on making a giant leap from
talking about a prostitute to talking about "scorned"
women. What is a prostitute? Is it a woman who
sells herself? Or a government lobbyist? Or a movie
star? Are these examples always women? Or, in fact,
is it possible that a woman could be raised for one purpose
in life -- to "nab" a man? And if that is possible, who
decided to raise a woman like that? The Catholic church?
Thanks be to the Argentine to warn everyone about
falling in love with this problem.
Now, the men don't mind desperate women. It's kind of
sexually exciting. And I can't speak for all women, which,
obviously, I'm not doing well, since they haven't spoken.
Or at least I will be surprised by many postings to the list
by women? Not about how to lead a tango step, I hope.
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:07:40 -0700
From: Enrico AAANETSERV <enrico@AAANETSERV.COM>
Subject: Re: Men's Motives (was Moulin Rouge)
Mark:
> But how about it guys. Why do we dance?
David McRee, from Tampa Bay:
"I want the floor to be my canvas,
I want my feet to be my brush"
I read it that he wants to paint the music,
I like it a lot.
Enrico
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:27:53 -0700
From: Enrico AAANETSERV <enrico@AAANETSERV.COM>
Subject: Fw: Re: Men's Motives (was Moulin Rouge)
>
> David McRee, from Tampa Bay:
>
> "I want the floor to be my canvas,
> I want my feet to be my brush"
>
Somebody brought to my attention that this quote could be, in fact, from
Carlos Gavito. I didn't know it. Sorry, Gavito, if it seemed like I (or
David)
were stealing such a beautiful quote from you!
> I read it that he wants to paint the music,
> I like it a lot.
>
I still do!
> Enrico
>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:11:27 -0400
From: robin thomas <ic11788@MAIL.INFOHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: Men's Motives (was Moulin Rouge)
why do i dance? i always dance close embrace. i love the music and i
love holding women in my arms. i do it for the hug. to me it's
hugging to music.
(mr) robin thomas
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 07:24:44 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Men's Motives (was Moulin Rouge)
> David McRee, from Tampa Bay:
>
> "I want the floor to be my canvas,
> I want my feet to be my brush"
For another perspective on painting with one's feet:
https://www.cnn.com/2000/STYLE/arts/07/24/tango.ap/index.html
a previously posted link...
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 17:30:16 -0700
From: JEAN LEDUC <jean_leduc22@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: MOULIN ROUGE
Tango lyrics are a source of phylosophical explanations.
Love relationships frequently reach a dead end because...
Uno va arrastrandose entre espinas One draggs onself on thorns
y en su afan de dar su amor and in his urge to give his
love
sufre y se destroza hasta entender one suffers and is torn into
pieces till he understands
que uno se ha quedado sin corazon... than one was left without a heart...
And when love is finally here...
Uno esta tan solo en su dolor One is so lonely with his pain
Uno esta tan ciego en su pesar One is so blinded by his
sorrows.
That one does not know how to take care of it.
Pero Dios te trajo a mi destino But God brought you to me
sin pensar que ya es muy tarde not noticing that now it is too
late
y no sabre como quererte and I will not know how to love
you.
Salut!
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:21:11 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Moulin Rouge/Tango
Deborah Holm wrote:
>Why has there not been any discussion
>on this list of (plus or minus 1100 strong,
>worldwide) about this movie?
Why not, indeed?
Some of the tango scenes from Moulin Rouge can be found on Caroline
O'Connor's website
https://www.carolineoconnor.com.au/tango.htm
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:13:52 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Moulin Rouge
Wait a minute!
With all due respect to Kevin Dunn, Mark Sussex,
Nancy, and Heather, who I am not going to say I got
private emails from (making me feel good, which they
did),
I have something that I want some words on with
regard to Melinda:
>>I have been involved in my tango community for
>> four+ years. I have seen people behaving well
>>and badly, just as you would expect in any aspect of
>>life. I have never seen or heard any comments like
>>the ones Deborah describes. What I have observed,
>>on a regular basis, is men using tango to meet women
>>for sex (yes, yes, I'm sure it works both ways). The women,
>>being women (sigh) regard the tango as great foreplay
>>and assume the sex means more than it does.
What sex?
>>When they discover their error, they are embarassed and
>>stop coming to tango.
What error?
>>It hurts the tango community,
>>but the men just continue happily along behaving badly.
>>And, as long as women continue to behave stupidly,
>>ain't nothin' gonna change.
OK.
>>This will require a little deeper explanation of how
>>women think than I had planned, but here goes:
>>(with apologies for generalizing)
>>There are many ways to communicate besides words.
>>Both men and women do this constantly, in every facet
>>of their lives, but especially in romantic exchanges.
>>A man does not have to "say" that he wants a real
>>relationship, or that a woman is special to him in order
>>to convey that idea. Men do this all the time, to get
>>what they want from women, particularly sex. (Again,
>>certainly not all men, but enough that it's fairly typical
>>behavior.)
Well, men do want sex. That is the idea.
>>Many women are just dismal at divining the true intentions
>>of a man, because we make the foolish assumption that
>>men think as we do. This is either hilarious or devastating,
>>depending on the context. (Many) men seem to understand
>>this. The less honorable among them count on it to get what
>>they want. These are the men I was referring to. I imagine
>>most of you could identify men in your communities who fit
>>this description. (Of course they are not limited to tango by
>>any means!)
So, many men realize that they must have a more civilized
manner about them in their endeavor for sex. Not just
primitive man/woman stuff.
>>None of this absolves women from the responsibility to be
>>wiser in their choices. However, it does seem wrong to
>>me for people (male or female) to take advantage of another's
>>weakness. If a foreigner asks me for change in unfamiliar
>>money, it is wrong of me to take advantage of his ignorance
>>and cheat him. (I once tried to tip a Paris cab driver $50.
>>It was our third currency in 2 weeks, and I was beyond
>>computing. Fortunately, Steve noticed, but the driver
>>never said a word.) There are an awful lot of unaware
>>women being taken advantage of by tango lotharios. I
>>think this qualifies as "behaving badly". In the end, it hurts
>>tango communities, because women who are embarassed
>>will not return to the classes or milongas. I can think of a
>>dozen we lost over the last few years. I'm not suggesting
>>there is anything to be done about this common human
>>behavior, just commenting on it.
Well, maybe we better teach those women who the idiots are.
Because, obviously, these "valuable" women who were assets
to the tango community don't know who these idiots are.
And we lost "a dozen" of those women over the last few years
because they didn't know who these idiots were.
>>These are merely the observations of a grown-up woman
>>with no particular credentials other than having lived an
>>interesting life. There are many people on this List with
>>advanced degrees in many fields. Are there any social
>>scientists out there whose comments would shed further
>>light? Help us out here, please!
You did fine, Melinda, without anybody's help. I have the
picture absolutely clear.
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:11:52 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Forget moulin rouge
I got my comeuppance today privately.
A woman who comes into the tango
community is supposed to know to ask
the Queen Bee who the bad men are so
that she can avoid them.
Otherwise, she is made fodder for the
Tango-L list by the Queen Bee.
My apologies for not having enough time
to answer Tango-L threads without being
deemed too late.
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:04:42 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Forget moulin rouge
Is it too late to find out about those ruthless women
who are bent on "getting a milonga" from a guy? I was
hoping to find out what Deborah meant. In spite of
the debate on the list, she must have been talking
about something she's been seeing. I wanted to find
out what it was...
... and sign up to be the next victim.
Yayyyy
Mark
