816  Musicality

Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:14:02 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Musicality

David Gunther writes:
"As someone who has been watching (okay, lurking on) this list for quite some time I've been reading some recent threads with dismay."

Luda responded:
"I've looked through some recent threads briefly, and your name does not appear on any of them. Perhaps you would be so kind as to inform the list what an =
exemplary thread might consist of."

I tend to agree with David. That endless "real men" thread had me ready to unsubscribe for the first time since I joined the list. The only thing that =
kept me onboard is that I was afraid I might mistakenly post my "unsubscribe" command on the group like those other poor souls who wanted out, and ended up =
getting flamed. But I suppose if you're going to criticize it's better to offer something of your own. So in order to avoid incurring more wrath for =
criticism without contribution, here's a post about music:

"Music, music, music. First the music. Always the music."
-Tete

I have seen a few discussions about musicality on the list, and the general view is that you just have to feel it. Or that the Argentines have been =
listening so long that it "comes naturally" to them. Both of these things are true, but there are some nuts and bolts things about the music that I haven't =
seen discussed. (Caveat: I'm neither a musician nor a music expert.)

When I watched some of the milongas in BA I noticed that there is often a beautiful rhythmical movement of the entire floor. It is as if each person is =
not just dancing with his partner, but is also moving to the music along with the other couples. I wondered a lot about this, because it's not something =
I've seen much in the U.S. It has been pointed out to me by three excellent instructors (Alex Krebbs of Portland, and Christopher and Caroline of San =
Francisco) that tango music generally has 8 count phrases. I've started to listen a lot to the music while keeping this in mind, and also to watch videos =
of the BA milongas. It may be patently obvious to someone with a musical background, but here's what I've noticed: Tango music (tango, vals, and even =
milonga) usually does come in 8 count phrases. The music often starts with a melody that goes for 8 counts, or sometimes 16 counts. There is a noticeable =
break, and then the melody is repeated. This is done several times, same melody, with some variations added each time, often with different instruments, =
or a change in intensity. Then, often a new melody is added, and the process repeated. Then, if there are vocals, they begin in 8 or 16 count segments. =
Finally, the music returns to the original 8 count instrumental phrase, and ends.

This format is very common in the most popular dance tangos. You can drive and listen in your car and count the 8 beats, and it becomes second nature. You =
will hear a series of mini songs within each piece. It starts with a mini song repeated a few times with variations and a different feel, then a new one is =
added. If there is a singer, he will then come in and float around among the beats, adding his part in 8 or 16 count phrases. He then exits, the original =
mini song returns, and the music ends. It sounds complicated, but it's not. And it gives a framework that might help us through those "Too many =
choices...where do I go with this damn thing?" moments on the dance floor. I think the good Argentine social dancers are very aware of this structure. It =
may be conscious, or subconscious, but they seem to build their dancing around it, and I think it's part of what gives the beautiful flowing movement to some =
of the dance floors in BA.

How do they use it? That's harder to say, but I've noticed that if you listen to music in this way, it can become part of the dancing. Sometimes they =
might tend to slow down or to finish something toward the end of the phrases, and use that time to regroup, or to pause, or embellish. Many of them vary =
their style from phrase to phrase. Di Sarli is a good one to practice this with. He often uses the harder driving bandoneons against the softer smoother =
strings. They seem to battle for dominance, each competing against the other for their own 8 or 16 beats, and you can vary the aggressiveness or smoothness =
of the steps from phrase to phrase to move along with them. In vals, I've noticed a lot of the good dancers use the first part of the 8 counts for =
forward movement, and save the last couple of beats for giros. They end with a turn or two, and then move out again at the first part of the next phrase. =
Sometimes in BA most of the floor seems to turn, and then surge forward together during a vals.

These things are not mechanical - they are art. But when they're used creatively with the basic "step.....step-and-step" rhythm, you're dancin' =
tango! For real inspiration, I look to Tete. After a lot of observation, I've concluded that he's also very aware of this phrasing, but not in a simple way. =
Sometimes he ignores it, and at other appropriate times he really emphasizes it with a very hard stop. Most often, however, he acknowledges it subtly with a =
sort of floating step or a direction change as he passes the 8 count point. His feet stay very grounded in the rhythm, while he and his partner's upper =
bodies move among the notes like a singers voice. Or like a conductor's baton.

There is a lot to learn in this dance.

Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:20:48 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Musicality

On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:14:02 -0700
Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET> wrote:

"So in order to avoid incurring more wrath for criticism without
contribution, here's a post about music:"

And an excellent post this is! There is so much here I don't know if I can
respond to it adequately at one go. Rick, you've done a great job of
introducing important aspects of the music and dance.

"Music, music, music. First the music. Always the music."
-Tete

To me (and I think the quote from Tete would indicate that to him)
the music is MORE IMPORTANT than the dance. The music is richer in
meaning, emotion, and performance. Dancing is a blessing not in that it
allows us to wow others with our technique, but in that it allows us to
share in the music. I know this is a mean spirited bit of sniping on my
part, and those who love their dance steps and spend money and time on
them may feel I'm being trollish. I do it because I feel technique is way
over emphasized in teaching and that music and musicality virtually
ignored. I'm not saying ignore technique. I'm saying spend as much time
on music and musicality as you do on technique.

"I have seen a few discussions about musicality on the list, and the
general view is that you just have to feel it. Or that the Argentines
have been listening so long that it "comes naturally" to them. Both of
these things are true, but there are some nuts and bolts things about the
music that I haven't seen discussed."

Steps, step patterns, technique and style are easier to teach for sure and
so the importance of music structure, composition and how that relates to
emotional expression and artistry are slighted by most teachers of social
dance and most students of social dance. However, it is teachable and
should be taught.

No music teacher would think it sufficient to teach a student only
technique. Very soon after beginning to learn technique the student will
be given little songs, or melodies, and a good teacher will be helping
them begin to develop expression as well as technique. I don't think a
teacher can make a great musician, true, but expressiveness is worthwhile
teaching and learning. That it's mostly ignored in social dance and
dismissed by teachers and students alike with the idea that you just have
to feel it, is a shameful cop out. We can't teach it, but for $100
dollars you can learn these three fancy steps, is marketing, not
responsible teaching.

"It has been pointed out to me by three excellent instructors (Alex Krebbs
of Portland, and Christopher and Caroline of San Francisco) that tango
music generally has 8 count phrases."

As a point of clarification those are bar counts, that is counting the
downbeats (first beats) of each measure. If someone was counting all the
beats they might misunderstand you. Yes, much of European music uses
structures based on 2; 2 measures grouped with 2 for 4, those 4 for 8, 8
for 16 etc. And in most popular songs the lyric line is 8 bars long.

" It may be patently obvious to someone with a musical background, but
here's what I've noticed: Tango music (tango, vals, and even milonga)
usually does come in 8 count phrases. The music often starts with a
melody that goes for 8 counts, or sometimes 16 counts. There is a
noticeable break, and then the melody is repeated. This is done several
times, same melody, with some variations added each time, often with
different instruments, or a change in intensity. Then, often a new melody
is added, and the process repeated. Then, if there are vocals, they begin
in 8 or 16 count segments. Finally, the music returns to the original 8
count instrumental phrase, and ends."

I don't speak Spanish. It's much easier for me to explain with English
songs. Those melodies are melodic phrases. Phrasing is the KEY to
understanding the structure of music and to dancing to it in a meaningful
way. You are right on with this. And this is where I've been driven nuts
by teachers ignoring this obvious attribute of music. If music is
important to dance, then dancing needs to be based on phrased movement
that expresses the phrases of the music.

"This format is very common in the most popular dance tangos."

With the exception of 12 bar blues, this format is the format of most
modern popular songs, modern here meaning the last 100 years and more.

"You will hear a series of mini songs within each piece. It
starts with a mini song repeated a few times with variations and a
different feel, then a new one is added. If there is a singer, he will
then come in and float around among the beats, adding his part in 8 or 16
count phrases. He then exits, the original mini song returns, and the
music ends. It sounds complicated, but it's not."

Rick, I suspect that you like me don't speak Spanish. Those mini songs are
melodic phrases for the lines of the verses and refrains. Listening to
popular songs in English which I do understand it is so clear how the
lyrics and the melody are structured with each other. And you are so
right, it's not complicated. It's just songs with verses and chorus's.
Now, arrangements can complicate things a bit but the idea is simple.
But if we don't know the language, then we must rely on the music. Still,
I think you've given a very good introduction on how to hear the
structure.

"And it gives a framework that might help us through those "Too many
choices...where do I go with this damn thing?" moments on the dance floor.
I think the good Argentine social dancers are very aware of this
structure. It may be conscious, or subconscious, but they seem to build
their dancing around it, "

Rick, YES! This is what I've been trying to get across: Dancing the
phrases in the music.

"How do they use it? That's harder to say, but I've noticed that if you
listen to music in this way, it can become part of the dancing.
Sometimes they might tend to slow down or to finish something toward the
end of the phrases, and use that time to regroup, or to pause, or
embellish. Many of them vary their style from phrase to phrase."

Oh! and again YES! I'm including here a reference to a wonderfully clear
book

EXPRESSIVE MOVEMENT: POSTURE AND ACTION IN DAILY LIFE, SPORTS, AND
THE PERFORMING ARTS by PIERCE, ALEXANDRA
Publisher: THE PERSEUS BOOKS GROUP
ISBN: 030643269

For almost all of my education in social dance, most of that being tango,
teachers only talk of steps and step pattern, but here you are dead on
right, the unit is the phrase! The Pierces in their book explain movement
phrases in many contexts, but it's something everyone does already.
Again, if you listen to a song in a language you understand, the
singer is phrasing both the music and the words. We all of us phrase when
we speak all the time. Dancing to the phrases in the music means starting
when the phrase starts, follow the rising action to the climax, and the
falling action to the end. There is a moment of stillness at the end, then
a juncture to the new phrase.

"These things are not mechanical - they are art. "

Technique is mechanical and necessary, but art is structure, meaningful
structure and without art.. well, technique can be a mechanical
perfection, but I for one am unmoved by mechanical perfection.

"For real inspiration, I look to Tete. After a lot of observation,
I've concluded that he's also very aware of this phrasing, but not in a
simple way. Sometimes he ignores it, and at other appropriate times he
really emphasizes it with a very hard stop. Most often, however, he
acknowledges it subtly with a sort of floating step or a direction change
as he passes the 8 count point. His feet stay very grounded in the
rhythm, while he and his partner's upper bodies move among the notes like
a singers voice. Or like a conductor's baton."

Phrasing has so much variety. That is why given the underlying 8 count
structure there is a huge number of songs possible. It is with this we get
meaningful variety. It's not the random willy nilly chaining together of
various steps, moves, and steps patterns that seem to be the result of so
much of the teaching of social dance.

I don't like my posts to get this long or to have this many points as it
makes it hard to respond to. Rick, you started the thread I've been
wanting to start since I subscribed to this list. You've expressed so much
of what I've been trying to get across. This is the real heart, the real
channel of dance, tango being a subset of music, poetry, dance.
When a dancer hears the music and responds to the phrases, and in
choosing Tete, you've chosen a great example, then the feelings that are
structured in the music can be danced.

I will post separately more on the nature of phrasing in language,
movement, feeling, music and dance. But this post is long enough.

Jonathan Thornton

Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:54:28 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

--- Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET> wrote:

> "Music, music, music. First the music. Always the
> music."
> -Tete
>
> I have seen a few discussions about musicality on
> the list, and the general view is that you just have
> to feel it.

Of course, I love to hear someone invoke Tete when
making a point. I love his dancing.

Acquiring musicality in dancing is primarily about one
thing: stepping on the beat. If someone is perceived
as being "unmusical", the deficiency is virtually all
about just not being on the beat.

I know I'll be challenged even though I'm going to say
quite plainly right now that there is more to dancing
and being musical than stepping on the beat. That
surely is true. There is a world of expressive
possibilities associated with music.

The point is this. While musical people differ widely
in the expressive character of their movement,
unmusical people differ from musical people in
essentially one way, they're not on the beat. Being
on the beat is the primary requirement for being
musical.

Where instruction in musicality is needed, that's the
objective to hit. Anything after that is gravy.

Susana Miller taught a class that included simple
clapping to the music. I've seen this kind of thing
fail miserably before. Rhythm isn't necessarily
obvious to everyone, and it can require drill to
develop some perception. It's important; it shouldn't
be surprising that if people can't clap in time to the
music, they certainly aren't going to be able to dance
in time to it.

In Miller's class, everyone's rhythm was great and the
clapping exercise was no problem. Naturally, when the
whole class danced, it was one of the more enjoyable
dance environments I've had the privilege of
participating in.

Rhythm and musicality aren't the only elements that
lend a milonga an appearance of unity. Another
essential element for that is floorcraft. That, of
course, is the beginning of another thread entirely.

Jai


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Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:53:23 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Jai Jeffryes wrote:

> Acquiring musicality in dancing is primarily about one
> thing: stepping on the beat.

<snip>

> I know I'll be challenged even though I'm going to say
> quite plainly right now that there is more to dancing
> and being musical than stepping on the beat.

Jai,
I agree with you, but I do want to explain why I feel its
important to develop the other aspects of musicality. Time is of NECESSITY
for music. That is one of the functions of the conductor for an orchestra,
or the bass player in a band. The music will fall apart if the time
structure is not maintained.
I played drums and percussion in concert, marching, and dance
band. I've spent uncounted hours practising with a metronome. There are
even aspects of musicality important for percussion beyond the beat,
rhythm and keeping time, but I did envy the melodic capabilities of the
other instruments. So, I'm not disagreeing with you, and yet, my focus is
beyond the fundamentals of the beat, to the emotional expressiveness of
the melody. Musicians can rush and drag the beat, I've been reprimanded by
the music teacher for that, and been there when others were. So, keeping
time is a a fundamental challenge in music to be actively maintained
during performance.

And, I've about reached the point where I am going to define
social dance musicality as being simply with the beat. That may be all
that social dance(rs) aspires too, and if so, it may be why I'm losing
interest in social dance.

" Being on the beat is the primary requirement for being musical."

I would rather say being on the beat is A primary requirement. Small
difference I know. Jai has one requirement, I have several. It is
indispensable, but is it sufficient? Answering for myself only, "No, it's
not"

"Where instruction in musicality is needed, that's the
objective to hit. Anything after that is gravy."

I would like basic dance instruction to include being on the beat. Now,
note even for musicians when learning a new passage, or fingerings,
whatever they have to work through, only when they begin to have the
technique worked out do they then put it in time. But from the first class
the beat should be recognized and worked with. In my ideal dance world,
anyway.

My concern for musicality is for those dancers who are on the beat with
good technique, and most advanced classes work on that. These dancers move
well, perform well, but their performance is only tied to the music as to
a metronome. This is where I feel the need to focus on the phrases in the
music, and phrasing movement to the music. It is through phrasing that the
feeling for the music enters the dance.

That is, one can have feeling for a partner, an enjoyable connection, move
well, with out exploring the feeling in the music. This expression is
usually, there can be exceptions, but typically I think it is among the
last developments in learning to dance. But it's not a mysterious thing
that just happens. Music, movement, language almost all human activity is
phrased. The ballroom dances use step patterns that make phrasing
difficult. Huck used the example of Hustle, a dance I don't know anything
about. Tango of all the social dances I know offers the greatest freedom
to express the music.

Another thread that I would find interesting is one on why people dance
socially, and why tango. I'm sure there are a number of reasons and not
all fit all dancers.

I know I have a narrow interest in dance. My real love is music and
dancing is of value to me to the extent that it enhances my experience of
music, my participation in the emotional expression of music, and allows
me to share it with others. This is a personal preference.

That others are good at coordinating complex moves with a partner and they
enjoy doing that to music makes senses to me, it just has no appeal.
I'm interested in expanding awareness of the nuances of music and feeling
through kinesthetic interaction with my partner. Moving with the nuances
of the melody allows us to explore the feelings in the music.

I'm including here a link to a series of lectures on music. Not on tango,
or on dance, but especially the 2nd and 3rd lecture looks at how music is
felt bodily. There are even some very interesting exercises given.
These are fairly dense academic lectures but especially those interested
in teaching musicality might find something of interest in them.

Linkname: CSI: Hat3
URL: https://www.chass.utoronto.ca/epc/srb/cyber/hat3.html

Would anyone like to start a thread sharing and discussing the reasons you
dance tango? What it is you seek, find, enjoy in this activity? I'd like
to hear differing viewpoints.

I agree with most of your statement, Jai, it's just I want more from the
music than just the time.

Thanks,

Jonathan Thornton

Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:28:04 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Through the on-list and off-list discussion I have arrived at the
realization that my concerns with musicality can be broken into two,
possibly three, separate issues. I will note that for me though technique
is necessary it is possible for dancers to dance musically with a minimum
of techniques. That is if one can walk well and do a few steps they can
dance musically, they don't need a lot of advanced figures. Those knowing
many advanced figures may or may not dance musically.

The first concern is how to educate non musicians who come into
social dance with only a vague idea of the beat and no understanding of
music. This is really about teaching music, the beats, the down beats, the
structure of the measure and the melodic phrase. How to listen to music
and hear how its structure communicates emotion.

The second is the development of musicality in movement. How to
use the body and the techniques of the dance to express the feeling
structured and expressed by the music. It's obvious to me that this can't
be undertaken unless the dancer has the basic musical understandings
concerned in the first step.

A third concern might be how to help those Huck has categorized as
Jets to move well. I personally have explored Feldenkrais Awareness in
Movement classes, Authentic Movement classes, Body Mind Centering, Contact
Improvisation, and other mind body disciplines to help me improve my
movement. And they have helped. I've probably started too late in my
life to make any dramatic improvements, but my posture is still improving
as is my walking. I would recommend similar activities to those "Jets"
who feel they need to work on their motor skills.

But I'm going to be addressing at this point the first two areas.
I recall watching a leader at a milonga racing around the dance floor
executing many different steps and moves, yet he was off the beat so
much that it seemed that the times he was on the beat it was by accident.
The thing is that he learned all those steps and moves and leads somewhere
and not in a single class or workshop. In other words he had moved through
the "tango teaching system" to the point of executing what I consider
advanced steps without anyone ever making sure he had the fundamentals
down.

Now social dance is for fun. It is rarely a class like band where
one is tested and graded by the teacher, and where you are required to
practise, and where there is a core area of competency specified such
as rhythm, scales, fingerings, intonation, phrasing etc. Musicality, like
floorcraft, is at the option of the individual.

Still, I can dream. Jai is correct that the first thing is hearing
the beat and walking on the beat. Rick gave a good non technical
description of how to hear phrases in the music. I still don't know what
it would take to teach the basics of music but I'm getting an idea of
direction.

The second area is the area of greatest interest to me, as it is
the area of expressing the music in the dance. This is the point where the
dancer hearing the music finds the movement and movement qualities to
communicate the feelings of the music, the meaning of the music. It is
this communication of feelings that I refer to as musicality and
distinguish it from technique primarily in that technique accomplishes a
physical action, whereas musicality uses physical actions to express an
emotional meaning.

Musicality is therefore subjective and personal. We all don't like
the same music, movies, poems, etc. There exist a great deal of
variation. So, musicality is not about pleasing all the partners all the
time. But, I am interested in learning and teaching approaches to
musicality that enhances our enjoyment of music and dance with those
partners we have a rapport with.

That musicality in dance is personal and subjective doesn't mean
that dancers can't benefit from studying it. Musicians take classes in
interpretation and improvisation, as do poets, composers, and students of
modern dance. I very much enjoyed the improvisation classes I took in the
dance department of the local community college, and was very impressed by
the quality of teaching. But these weren't social dance classes.

To sum this up, I feel the teaching of tango and other social
dance does not make good use of material available in the disciplines of
music, dance, and movement education, and instead focuses too exclusively
on steps, moves, and style. Part of this maybe that it's a consumer driven
market and the consumers demand steps. I think of how Arthur Murray
marketed social dancing initially with his "magic step" for the fox trot
and foot prints on the floor. How much has changed in teaching social
dance since then? (noting that tango was originally a folk dance i.e.
the dancers taught each other informally)

I'm being provocative here to invite thoughtful response. I
welcome discussion, and would like to hear the viewpoints of those who
disagree with this analysis. What would learning to dance involve for you
in your "ideal dance education"? Does this even seem relevant to you? Do
you perhaps find great pleasure in doing the steps you've learned to music
without thinking about "musicality"? I would like to understand the
different satisfactions, or the different ways dancers find satisfaction
in dancing.

Sincerely,

Jonathan Thornton

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:45:36 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Johnathan Thornton wrote:

>Those knowing many advanced figures may or may not dance musically.

>I recall watching a leader at a milonga racing around the dance
>floor executing many different steps and moves, yet he was off
>the beat so much that it seemed that the times he was on the beat
>it was by accident.

I have seen teachers of Argentine tango, well known and otherwise,
Argentine and otherwise, dance Argentine tango doing many advanced and
fancy steps without showing any connection with the music.

>The thing is that he learned all those steps and moves and leads
>somewhere and not in a single class or workshop.

Unless we know the person you are discussing learned from video tapes or a
book, how can we conclude that he learned without attending a single class
or workshop?

>In other words he had moved through the "tango teaching system"
>to the point of executing what I consider advanced steps without
>anyone ever making sure he had the fundamentals down.

In my own experience, most instructors of Argentine tango emphasize figures
over moving to rhythm. Most of the instructors who are Argentine seem to
take the ability to move with the rhythm of tango music for granted. They
grew up with it. In addition, some instructors do not have that great a
command of the musical movement themselves...

Comment: A friend has suggested that one litmus test of an instructor's
ability to dance to the rhythm of the music is to see how well they connect
to the basic rhythm of milonga. I think this test offers considerable
insight.

I would further point out that are at least two musical divides in tango.
There is the divide (that Johnathan is discussing) between those who dance
to the rhythm of the music and those who do not. Among those who dance to
the rhythm of the music, there is another divide between those who dance
doggedly to the beat and those who are interpreting other rhythmic elements
in the music as well as dancing to the beat.

I will place the latter group in the third category of musicality, and this
category is what is meant by the idea that you do not dance tango only to
the beat. In order to reach the third category with any degree of
musicality, one must learn to dance to the beat first. Unfortunately, I
think some dancers who have not yet connected with the music confuse
entrance into the third category with disregarding the beat.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:35:58 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Stephen Brown wrote:

>
> >The thing is that he learned all those steps and moves and leads
> >somewhere and not in a single class or workshop.
>
> Unless we know the person you are discussing learned from video tapes or a
> book, how can we conclude that he learned without attending a single class
> or workshop?

Oops, If was speaking aloud I would have phrased that sentence so
you would hear that I was emphasizing not in a SINGLE class or workshop,
meaning he had taken more than one, a lot more than one. I wasn't meaning
that he hadn't taken any, rather that to have acquired all those moves he
had to have been in quite a few classes and workshops. Thus, there would
have been ample opportunity for teachers to work on moving with the beat.
My verbal habits of speech sometimes translate ambiguously into written
thoughts.

> I would further point out that are at least two musical divides in tango.
> There is the divide (that Johnathan is discussing) between those who dance
> to the rhythm of the music and those who do not. Among those who dance to
> the rhythm of the music, there is another divide between those who dance
> doggedly to the beat and those who are interpreting other rhythmic elements
> in the music as well as dancing to the beat.

Yes, I'm definitely getting that is is a two step process.
Learning the beat, then how that structure is used to structure the music.

> I will place the latter group in the third category of musicality, and this
> category is what is meant by the idea that you do not dance tango only to
> the beat. In order to reach the third category with any degree of
> musicality, one must learn to dance to the beat first. Unfortunately, I
> think some dancers who have not yet connected with the music confuse
> entrance into the third category with disregarding the beat.

Interesting point, and one I hadn't thought of, that some one
might deliberately disregard the beat thinking that was artistic or
musical. I think that would occur with those dancers who put their dancing
first in importance over the music. I've decided that I feel okay about
dancers showing off their chops from time to time in the sense that they
are taking a solo in the music, provided they respect the music. I am
irritated by dancers who use music just so they can dance and do their
stuff. I know this is grumpy of me and there is no reason why someone who
enjoys moving should not be able to do so to music if that is what they
want, but I do grumble from time to time, if mostly only to myself.

Thank you,

Jonathan Thornton

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:55:43 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Musicality

Stephen Brown says:

"In my own experience, most instructors of Argentine tango emphasize
figures
over moving to rhythm. Most of the instructors who are Argentine seem to
take the ability to move with the rhythm of tango music for granted. They
grew up with it. In addition, some instructors do not have that great a
command of the musical movement themselves..."


This corresponds (IMO) to cultural differences. In Argentina when you start
dancing (the same happens with most forms of artistic activities) "people"
immediately classify you in two groups: those that have the "gift" and those
that do not have it.
In the specific case of dancing if you are perceived as dancing off the beat
you are called "pata dura" (hard legged).
It is a cultural belief that being "pata dura" is a permanent condition. It
does not matter how much you practice, you may improve somewhat but...you
will never be like the ones that have the gift of moving with grace to the
music.

In the USA there is not such a conviction. People believe that with proper
training you can improve your musicality and eventually acquire a certain
degree of grace in your movements.

The result of this first cultural difference is that Argentineans initially
classified as being "pata dura" restrain themselves from dancing. Busy
instructors after a rapid evaluation usually will refuse to give lessons to
such a person.

The ones you see on the dancing floor are the lucky ones that were born with
the right genes, they have the gift of moving with grace to the music.

In the USA you will see both types on the dancing floor because there is no
prejudice against dancing off the beat. Dance is something anyone can do to
have fun and joy.

This conviction "not being gracious when you move or not being musically
oriented" does not preclude anybody from learning to dance tango. The
problem here is compounded by the fact that most North Americans ignore the
musical characteristics of Argentine Tango. Even when they are able to move
with grace to the music they do not know where the beat is.

The result of this is : when at a dance in Argentina most people are dancing
on the beat, in the USA many people are off the beat.

Stephen also says : "In addition, some instructors do not have that great a
command of the musical movement themselves..."

I wonder who he is referring to. The well known instructors seem to have
excellent feeling of the music. There may be a few ones that are teaching
but that in Argentina are considered to be poor dancers. Some in this last
group could and often are efficient instructors, this could be the reason
they are hired.

In summary: Although I agree with the Argentinean concept that not everybody
can be a genius when it comes to artistic endeavors (a Leonardo or a Michael
Angelo, a Nureyev or a Fred Astaire) I like the American belief that
everyone is entitled to try to develop his own talent as far as he can rich.
This is quite possible in Argentina as well but while in one place they
advice you to do something else in the other they encourage you to persevere
and ignore your limitations.

My own opinion is that musicality can be taught, this is probably the first
thing we teach in our group.

Best regards, may your genes allow you to dance on the beat. :) but... if
you don't who cares?

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:08:17 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Greetings All,

Steve wrote:

>>In order to reach the third category with any degree of

musicality, one must learn to dance to the beat first. Unfortunately, I
think some dancers who have not yet connected with the music confuse
entrance into the third category with disregarding the beat.<<

Notwithstanding Jonathan's thoughtful contributions on the learning
of musicality, I have to agree here with Steve and I would even go
a small step further. I would assert that musicality has a component
that is visual - the stuff that's been discussed - and it has a
component
that is not obvious except to the couple themselves. The timing of
the mark (perhaps a 'pulse' of energy) is not the timing of the step.
The mark must come ahead of the beat if the follower's step is to be
on the beat. The mark can be on the beat and then the step will likely
be "late". Leaders can play with the rhythm by placing her feet on the
beat, by placing his mark on the beat, or by doing neither.

He may lead "intensely" but blatantly "glissando", or he
may lead loosely and simply wait and expect the follower to set a
rhythm. ...and naturally there are many more ways to play with
timing. I hesitate to distinguish any kind of musicality as
inferior. To a lesser degree, the same applies to milonga, where
the leader can "bite the beat" ever so slightly to produce a
wonderful feeling of lazy relaxation (as opposed to the feeling
of a march). How does that LOOK? Often, the obvious
enjoyment that you see these couples experiencing far overshadows
the issue of obvious musicality.

But like tonal dissonance that begs for harmonic resolution, I
suggest "resolving" the rhythmic games in good time
to flow smoothly back into the themes one (hopefully) hears. So, I
quite agree with the basic tenet that you must be able to put her
feet down on the beat! ...and my only point is that some elements
of musicality can be felt but not really seen...

I have no insights on how to teach dancers what to feel. In my
experience, the best dancers have the best musical aptitude.
Dancers who ain't 'got it' ain't gonna 'get it' (anytime soon).

Any music educators have an opinion to share?

Best regards,

Frank in Minneapolis

--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
612-625-6441

Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church Street SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455

Department of Veterinary Pathobiology
205 Veterinary Science
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55108

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:17:07 -0400
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Musicality

The first great difference I noticed when I danced in Buenos Aires was
the musicality of the Argentinians. It was remarkable, and it was
wonderful.

Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:13:55 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: Musicality

Towards teaching musicality ...

One song which superbly brings out spontaneous body movement of a different
kind is Di Sarli's "Catamarca" (from his 1940 style that is not so well
known).

The syncopation is wild - it calls you to get your body parts moving in
funky opposition. I had the experience of creating a whole new tango and
milonga walk for myself because of this song and Di Sarli's "Shusheta."

If you'd like to hear Catamarca in MP3, the last 60 seconds is at the bottom
of https://ToTANGO.net/disarli.html. It's the riff of the final 30 seconds
which has the wicked rhythm I refer to.

Nothing teaches musicality like inspired music.

Best to all,

Keith

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:56:41 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Musicality

>Stephen also says : "In addition, some instructors do not have that great a
>command of the musical movement themselves..."
>
>I wonder who he is referring to. The well known instructors seem to have
>excellent feeling of the music. There may be a few ones that are teaching
>but that in Argentina are considered to be poor dancers. Some in this last
>group could and often are efficient instructors, this could be the reason
>they are hired.

I have seen a few well-known instructors who did not teach class
utilizing the music at all. They just put on a random, modern tango
recording as background noise while they taught a figure. These same
people were not un-musical when dancing themselves.

I have also watched instructors doing warmup walking across the room
initiating the movements on the weak beat, rather than a strong one,
and, heaven forbid, not starting with the phrase.

If you already hear the music this is jarring, even offensive of your
sensibilities.

If you don't hear the music or even the beat, this could condemn you
to your fate.
--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-725-5963

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:34:25 -0400
From: sharon gates <sharon7301@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET> wrote:

>Best regards, may your genes allow you to dance on the beat. :) but... if
>you don't who cares?

Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:

>If you don't hear the music or even the beat, this could condemn you
>to your fate.

If I am being led by a man to do a molinete around him in a circle, lets say dancing to a DiSarli tango, I can feel the music to go slow-slow-slow-slow, or I can go quick-quick-quick-quick, or I can go slow-quick-quick-slow.

Who will condem me for which interpretation?

Cheers,
Sharon.

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:24:59 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Sergio wrote:

> This corresponds (IMO) to cultural differences. In Argentina when you start
> dancing (the same happens with most forms of artistic activities) "people"
> immediately classify you in two groups: those that have the "gift" and those
> that do not have it.
> In the specific case of dancing if you are perceived as dancing off the beat
> you are called "pata dura" (hard legged).
> It is a cultural belief that being "pata dura" is a permanent condition. It
> does not matter how much you practice, you may improve somewhat but...you
> will never be like the ones that have the gift of moving with grace to the
> music.

I have seen this attitude in Argentine instructors, and many non
Argentines as well. My experience from my own teaching contradicts this
idea though. I have found that many who at first seem to be "pata dura"
can, in fact, learn to dance well and quite musically. They may take
much longer to learn, and may give up in frustration, but if they are
willing to stick with it, and if they get some solid encouragement along
the way, they can learn to dance quite well.

>From my experience it seems that movement is natural to the human body,

and we all have the potential. In the same way we mostly have the
potential for music as well. We grow up not developing the music, and
like anything that isn't exercised, we can lose it. It is possible for
someone to be tone deaf, I suppose it is also possible for someone to be
"rhythm deaf" as well, but if a person is still alive there is an
unceasing rhythm they must feel all the time. There is the rhythm of
breath and the rhythm of heartbeat. Musical phrases are generally the
length of a breath, probably because of the breath limit of playing wind
instruments, and the same limit on that most elemental wind instrument,
the human voice. It is interesting that the rhythm of most dance music
is near to a normal human pulse rate. These things are probably not
accidents.

These people, who I might rather refer to as slow learners, rather than
"pata dura", have many reasons for having difficulty learning dance
movement and musicality. It is easier to chase them away and work only
with those who have "the gift", but it is possible to help these people
discover their own musicality. If you have the patience the results can
be wonderful. In this way tango is able to transform people's lives.
As a teacher you are missing one of the joys of teaching tango if you
don't work with the slower learners among us.

Robert

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 01:52:43 +0200
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas@SAP.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

> From: sharon gates [mailto:sharon7301@netscape.net]

> > If you don't hear the music or even the beat, this could condemn you
> > to your fate.

> If I am being led by a man to do a molinete around him in a circle, lets say dancing to a DiSarli tango, I
> can feel the music to go slow-slow-slow-slow, or I can go quick-quick-quick-quick, or I can go slow-quick-
> quick-slow.

> Who will condem me for which interpretation?

In either interpretation you will be ON the beat (or at least hopefully you will be ;) ).
"Being on the beat" does not mean to have a fixed ratio between the "beat" and your steps.
In tango the "slow" steps are actually on the "downbeat" (count 1 and 3 in 4/4 tango),
so in reality you only step on every 2nd beat, because the "upbeat" (count 2 and 4 in 4/4 tango)
is much lighter and perhaps not even perceived as a beat by many. This upbeat
is usually only used in quick steps, where the first quick step is on the downbeat
and the 2nd on the upbeat.

So counting your examples would be (when starting the movement on 1):

Beat: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
v ^ v ^ v ^ v ^

1) slow- slow- slow- slow
2) quick- quick- quick- quick
3) slow- quick- quick- slow

('v' = Downbeat; '^' = Upbeat )

So either way you'll always be on the beat.

BTW I took a tango class some time ago, with an emphasis on walking on the upbeat. Trying to lead your partner to step on the upbeat ONLY (and not fall back on stepping on the downbeat) is definitely a challenging experience, but a fun one and well worth trying. It doesn't work with every music, you definitely need music with an accentuated beat or otherwise you'll be back on stepping downbeat again.

When you do this sucessfully it gives you a strange feeling of going counter the beat yet with the music
at the same time.

Bernhard

Mountain View, California

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 00:19:11 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

I always thought the timing of the follower's steps around the leader in a
molinete was supposed to be led by the leader by speed of rotation of
shoulders/torso?

J


----Original Message Follows----

From: sharon gates <sharon7301@NETSCAPE.NET>
Reply-To: sharon gates <sharon7301@NETSCAPE.NET>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Musicality

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:41:36 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Tom Stermitz writes:

> I have seen a few well-known instructors who did not teach class
> utilizing the music at all. They just put on a random, modern tango
> recording as background noise while they taught a figure.

This drives me nuts. I wish they'd either follow the music
or turn it off!

> I have also watched instructors doing warmup walking across the room
> initiating the movements on the weak beat, rather than a strong one,
> and, heaven forbid, not starting with the phrase.

Shark! :)

> If you already hear the music this is jarring, even offensive of your
> sensibilities.

Jet! :)

Huck

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:30:56 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002, Tom Stermitz wrote:

> If you already hear the music this is jarring, even offensive of your
> sensibilities.
>
> If you don't hear the music or even the beat, this could condemn you
> to your fate.
> --

Listening to the music the entire time one is dancing is
fundamental to hearing the beat and phrases necessary for musicality.
Dancers need to achieve a basic comfort with walking in order to walk,
lead/follow and listen to the music every moment they dance it, rather
than dancing from a concept or program of step patterns or figures.

Towards the end of my first year of learning tango when I decided
I wanted to develop musicality in my dancing, I was perturbed to discover
that I had been listening to the beat at the start of the music and
setting my internal metronome and then much of the time my consciousness
was preoccupied with issues of leading, floorcraft, and all those
thoughts that can go through our minds especially when we are beginning to
learn something new and are still very clumsy with executing it.

So, I decided to give up trying to add new steps and instead I
focused on listening to the music the entire time I was dancing. It's a
little like meditating on the breath. I would hear the music for a few
measures then be startled by a near collision, or distracted by a worry
thought that my partner was bored with my dancing, then realize I hadn't
been listening to the music for some stretch of time, and return my
awareness to the music. This practise of returning my awareness to the
music when I noticed I had lost it, went on for over a year, or was it for
over two years? Now, when I lapse on the music I take it as a sign I'm
tired and need to sit awhile.

I'm wondering if others have had as much trouble as I did with
just being aware of the music the entire time you danced? And what did you
do about it?

Thanks,

Jonathan Thornton

Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 23:14:00 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango@AOL.COM>
Subject: musicality

Hearing the rhythm of the music isn't easy for a lot of people.
Many people have problems Dancing the Syncopation's, they should try teaching
them instead. First and for most, you just have to listen to the music. I see
so many people who only dance to DeSarli or Pugliese's steady beat, and when
Biagi, Tipica Victor, or Firpo is being played, they sit down. I sure they
aren't listening to the music now. If you want to learn syncopation's, have
someone show you a step, and keep doing it over and over to the proper music
until your moves fits the music.

When learning when to step, you taught to step on the down beat. Now that you
want to syncopate you also have to step on the up beat. But then we can get
into stepping between the beats. I'll stop here.
Just let you body hang loose and start listening to all the orchestras
closely, not just one or two.

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:01:26 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Musicality

Sometimes the discussions are so good on the list that it's hard to add
anything new. I liked Sergio's story about those unfortunate people in BA
afflicted with "patas duras". However, I have a Norteamericano's faith in self
improvement, so I'd like to mention an exercise I've been doing to try to learn
the music.

Here's what I've been practicing (it can be done with no partner and no
instructor): Put on a solid dance tango. First get comfortable walking and
counting the eight count phrases. Eight beats, eight steps. It may take
awhile, and if you get lost, try to find your way back by noticing the changes
in music at the eight count point. There should be a change in instruments or
intensity, a variation on the melody, or maybe a new melody. When you get used
to it, begin stepping the eight count phrases like this: One, two, three,
four, five, six, se-VEN, eight. The quick half beat step between the seventh
and eighth count corresponds to the second syllable in se-ven.

You'll finish each eight count phrase with a syncopated step. Practice it a
bit, occasionally adding some emphasis to the phrase ending eighth count, if
the music suggests it. Then try just swaying or rocking with the first several
beats of the next phrase without stepping, and then move forward to end again
on the syncopated "eight". Then try using that syncopation for a quick turn or
change of direction (giro or cambio derecho) to end the phrase. Finally, get
more creative in using the rock steps during the first beats of the phrase.
Maybe just do nothing for a couple of them. Put in a big swooping step
somewhere if the music asks for it. Then get creative with everything. Mix
well, and go out dancing. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention... it's a little more
difficult with a partner on a crowded dance floor.

Please note that I am not encouraging mechanical dancing. This is only an
exercise for getting used to moving, turning & syncopating, pausing & rocking,
and then moving again within the framework of the music. In the first
"musicality" post I talked about the smooth rhythmic movement that sometimes
seems to take over dance floors in BA. I've been thinking about this as a sort
of underlying order among the thousands of random movements. Could part of
this order have to do with portenos using this 8 count framework?

Dancing on the beat.

I had a conversation with a lady in BA last year. She lives there and dances
with many of the famous dancers in town, and she surprised me by claiming that
she doesn't like Tete's dancing because he doesn't stay on the beat. This
question interested me, and I've looked at videos a lot to try to figure out
what she meant. Another nice lady emailed and said that she's danced with Tete
for years. Here's what she wrote:

"We danced to some Pugliese that I have heard maybe 1,000 times, something like
"Recuerdo", but he danced it in a way that re-arranged the music for me. It
was akin to hearing an Ellington song being played in an early arrangement but
dancing to Billy Holiday singing the same song, while the Ellington arrangement
was in the background....this is truly unusual among most of the men in the
milongas even in BA. Dancing this way is not completely unusual, though,
especially in the older fustier milongas in the Northern barrios of BA. They
are not as lyrical practitioners as Tete, but I've noticed a group of men who
have this type of "jazz" phrasing, and they are all uniformly old enough to
actually have been dancing in the 50's - they also have an older style of
marking the dance, which is not taught/practiced in the US, and this style
places a greater musical demand on the woman than most styles - but also gives
a great deal more freedom. I've wondered about this specific "taste" in tango,
and wondered if those dancing it came of age when this type of musical
re-arrangement was being proposed in the shift from swing to be-bop (and
further expressions - you must pardon me, I am not a musician, but I know that
the late 40's into the 50's and throughout the 50's one strain of popular music
became increasingly complex, and made more demands on the listener than the
30's to the 40's - this is the shift that I am talking about). I also think it
is likely that this may just be the way some people are naturally able to
"hear" the music, or the potentials in the music."

To me it looks like Tete does push the edges of the beat at times. Sometimes
he seems to lag, which is one of the things I like about his dancing. He
doesn't let the music hurry him. But then at other times, he seems to push the
other way, almost trying to hurry the music in certain parts. I look at it
this way: Someone might say, "Well Picasso can't draw a horse. That doesn't
look like a horse." But of course Picasso has drawn a lot of horses that look
exactly like horses. In this case, he's trying to say something different
about horses. Exactly what he is trying to say is the interesting part.

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:48:56 -0500
From: "Berger, Sherwin" <Sberger@RTICO.COM>
Subject: Musicality to a deaf person?

I have a friend who is studying for her Masters in Education. She recently
observed a class in a school for deaf kids. That day they had a rock and
roll dance and the kids , tho deaf, were dancing around very well, because
they could feel the beat. Being tone deaf means you can't distinguish the
pitch of one note from another, but surely you can hear as well as feel the
beat...the accented notes that you step to. Enjoy Tango any way you can!

Sherwin Berger
Chicago Argentine Tangauero

-----Original Message-----

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:10:09 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Rick,
I enjoyed your post, thanks!

One small point. The Argentines talk about "double time" steps,
I've heard Christopher Nassopoulos quote Susanna Miller and he used the
Spanish term, which I don't recall, which translates "double time".
American social dance teachers used the term "syncopations" before the
coming of Argentine tango but they are not using it in a musically correct
way. The Argentines speaking of double time are musically correct. It's a
picky point and probably too late to change a north American practise
established in the ballroom world etc. but musically syncopation is quite
different from stepping on two adjacent beats, or what dancers also call a
quick-quick.

Have you listened to any Charlie Parker? or the other beboppers,
Dizzy Gillespie, early Miles Davis? Modern dancers could interpret them,
but it's hard to imagine social partner dancing to them. Great music,
though.

Bebop might have partially inspired Astor Piazzolla to write his
"undanceable" tango music? The musicians wanted the audience to listen to
them, and given the way lots of dancers treat the music I'm beginning to
understand why the musicians started evolving their music away from easy
dance beats. In effect they were saying to their audience, "If you can't
dance to it, maybe you'll stop being so caught up in your self indulgent
antics and listen to us!"

As for Tete's dancing, I've only seen the tape he made with Daniel
Trenner on Vals. He dances with the music, and phrases beautifully. It may
not be rhythmically simple or obvious. Beats are subdivided, and it's
possible to use subdivisions of the beat. If you are in correct
relationship to the beat structure that is not the same thing as being off
the beat. But, its been too long since I viewed that tape to recall what
Tete was doing with the beat. I just know I was wowed at how well he
phrased the music. It was absolutely clear to me that he was dancing the
music with every step.

Jonathan Thornton

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:23:39 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Musicality

Interesting discussion to which I'd like to contribute the following
points:

1. While it is true that most of the tangos you hear
at milongas have 8-bar phrasing, there are several very good tangos,
notably some by D'Arienzo, that have a mixture of 6 and 8-bar phrases.
This was first made clear to me while preparing to teach...a musicality
class. Then I think it was that cagey character Eric Jorissen who made
it more clear recently in a class I took with him.

2. Much has been stated about the mechanics of
musicality and the structure of music. However, this leaves much of the
concept of musicality out from my perspective. As dancers, we dance to
the music, no? If that is truly the case, then the music would dictate
the quality or nature of our movements - maybe a certain milonga gives
us the idea to roll our shoulders a bit, or a certain tango leads us to
walk smoothly and with a sparse variety of movements, or a certain vals
encourages us to dance in a sweet, more continually uplifted fashion.
These are the signs that someone is dancing musically. We have to get
WAY beyond the beat to get the full picture of musicality.

3. A lot of the tangos have very similar tempos as far
as the "main" walking beat or pulse. This is true of D'Arienzo, Di
Sarli, etc. What makes some seem fast and others seem slow has nothing
to do with the tempo of the music (for instance, how long it takes to
play that 8-bar phrase), but everything to do with the energy of the
music that the musicians are trying to create. I have counted this out
numerous times on my beat counter and they are all very, very similar.
How much, or how little, music exists between the main beats is
paramount. A friend says, "there is a lifetime between the beats when
dancing to 50's Di Sarli."

4. What happens when the beat drops off and we are
left with a swirling melody to dance to? Is it time to fold the cards
and walk off the floor? Time to pause? Time to do a turn? What
happens if the orchestra relentlessly lays down the beat for the entire
tango - shall we march about the room like soldiers? Can we still find
places to pause just a bit? What happens when the singer comes on -
what do we do now? I'm not seeking answers to these questions, but
they're worth considering.

5. I get very tired of hearing all the complaining
that some or most instructors don't teach musicality. As students, we
must decide for ourselves whether we are getting useful instruction or
not. If an instructor has some music playing in the background and is
teaching something that does not appear to have anything to do with the
music, we should be suspicious. In our quest for social dancing, we
have to quit supporting the stage dancers who "danced in the milongas"
for a few years and then went to the stage. We need to take lessons
from instructors who can actually make it happen on the social dance
floor, and who have spent time developing a useful teaching strategy.
There are many, from the US, Europe, and Bs As who teach very useful
material and always focus on the music and the conditions on the social
dance floor. Some of these instructors are in fact also stage dancers,
but in my experience most of the really good social dance instructors
are the ones who are simply social dancers. These instructors ALWAYS
address musicality.

6. Finally, I see a STRONG link between floorcraft and
musicality. When all the dancers are dancing musically, my experience
is that the floorcraft is usually very good. This is not necessarily
always true, but I see a strong link.

May the music be your friend -

Dan

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:02:00 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Musicality: there is no orchestra, but I still hear music

I'm sure you listened to a song, and continued humming it for hours after you
left the dance. Maybe you even danced a few steps as you walked down the
street. Did you ever dance with a person and days later think how wonderful
that one dance was. She felt so nice up against you tightly. She moved when
you did and stopped exactly when you did. It was like you were one person.
Your dancing to music that really isn't there, and after a while you start
thinking that there is no other person that I want to dance with any more.
Soon your hearing music, but there is no orchestra playing.
I guess what I really want to say is

Joanne Prochaska, Will you marry me, so we can tango forever

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:56:04 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Musicality

> One small point. The Argentines talk about "double time" steps,
>I've heard Christopher Nassopoulos quote Susanna Miller and he used the
>Spanish term, which I don't recall, which translates "double time".
>American social dance teachers used the term "syncopations" before the
>coming of Argentine tango but they are not using it in a musically correct
>way. The Argentines speaking of double time are musically correct. It's a
>picky point and probably too late to change a north American practise
>established in the ballroom world etc. but musically syncopation is quite
>different from stepping on two adjacent beats, or what dancers also call a
>quick-quick.

Argentines often use the term contra-tiempo, but I don't think that
is really correct either.

Yes, quick-quick or double-time have a specific, understandable meaning.

But in any language, especially a social language as opposed to the
academe, the meaning of a word is based on how it is commonly used.
Yes, to many dancers and dance teachers the word syncopation means to
take a quick-quick, in particular if this is an occasional
interruption of the regular rhythm of a dance. In contrast, the
fox-trot rhythm of a nearly constant quick-quick-slow would NOT be
termed a syncopation by a dancer (or a musician).

So tango dancers typically walk on the regular, strong heart-beat of
tango, milonga or waltz, and occasionally or frequently "syncopate"
or "double-step" or "quick-quick" half-way in between.

Tango dancers DO carefully step (change weight) precisely on the
beat; they do not step just before or just after the beat, or slide
onto a beat like they might in jazz, blues or swing. This is
extremely key to engaging with and managing the momentum of the
follower. Follower's who fail to step on the beat feel either heavy
or disconnected, depending on whether they are late or early to the
beat.

Someone who isn't precise with the beat feels most uncomfortable to
dance with, even if you can't put your finger on the problem. The
leader can reach full musical interpretation and become intuitive in
leading only when the follower is rhythmically precise. This is one
of the secrets why a really good leader can lead a relatively
beginner lady. He first gets her to find the beat and half-beat; then
she is easy to lead.

> Bebop might have partially inspired Astor Piazzolla to write his
>"undanceable" tango music? The musicians wanted the audience to listen to
>them, and given the way lots of dancers treat the music I'm beginning to
>understand why the musicians started evolving their music away from easy
>dance beats. In effect they were saying to their audience, "If you can't
>dance to it, maybe you'll stop being so caught up in your self indulgent
>antics and listen to us!"

Well, probably not. Piazzolla was certainly jazz and classically
inspired, but I think his interest was mainly complexity of
composition and arrangement, not a desire for "un-danceability." He
did wallow joyfully in the contempt shown by the serious dancers.

Piazzolla's normal and almost exclusive fundamental rhythm is built
on the 3-3-2, which in dancers' terminology might be long-long-short.
This rhythm is used for a more syncopated (yes!) effect by many tango
orchestras of the 1940s, such as Calo, Troilo, Tantturi. For
Piazzolla however, it is a fundamental rhythm, not a surprising
change-up. Ironically, this makes Piazzolla is less RHYTHMICALLY
interesting from a dancer's standpoint than Calo or Troilo.


--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-725-5963

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:01:11 +0200
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas@SAP.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

From: Dan Boccia [mailto:redfox@ALASKA.NET]
Subject: [TANGO-L] Musicality

> We have to get WAY beyond the beat to get the full picture of musicality.

True, we have to get beyond it. But in order to get beyond it, we have to
get there first. From the realm of mathematics I learned to distinguish
between a necessary and a sufficient condition (for the validity of a theorem).
So a sense of the beat is an absolute necessity, without it you will not
dance musically. But it is not sufficient, because with just that you
won't be dancing in a particularly musical way either.

> 4. What happens when the beat drops off and we are
> left with a swirling melody to dance to? Is it time to fold the cards
> and walk off the floor? Time to pause? Time to do a turn? What
> happens if the orchestra relentlessly lays down the beat for the entire
> tango - shall we march about the room like soldiers? Can we still find
> places to pause just a bit? What happens when the singer comes on -
> what do we do now? I'm not seeking answers to these questions, but
> they're worth considering.

You ask some very good question and I believe that the answers are not found
by considering the questions and thus doing a mental evaluation on them.
I find that how I react to a certain passage of music is mainly an intuitive
response not a conscious reaction. I'd love to take classes with teachers, who
know how the brain learns these intuitive responses and have the proper exercises
to develop those skills.

> 5. I get very tired of hearing all the complaining
> that some or most instructors don't teach musicality. As students, we
> must decide for ourselves whether we are getting useful instruction or
> not. If an instructor has some music playing in the background and is
> teaching something that does not appear to have anything to do with the
> music, we should be suspicious.

I think that teaching musicality goes beyond teaching tango with a respect
for music. While it is necessary to do that, it is not sufficient, especially
if students have a difficult time relating to the music.
Actively teaching musicality would invoke a focus on exercises and
practices whose primary goal is to enhance the musicality of the students
and not just make musicality a by-product. That is indeed an extremely
difficult task for a teacher.

> In our quest for social dancing, we have to quit supporting the stage dancers
> who "danced in the milongas" for a few years and then went to the stage.
> We need to take lessons from instructors who can actually make it happen
> on the social dance floor, and who have spent time developing a useful
> teaching strategy.

An excellent point, especially the part about "teaching strategy", since a good teacher
is much more than a good or great social dancer who decided to go into teaching.
Being able to do something and being able to teach it are two different skills.
A teacher needs to have a methodology to help students develop the essential
skills for the dance.

Bernhard
Mountain View, CA

Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:43:46 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Musicality

At the risk of further beating this subject to death:
;-)

I do not necessarily see an inconsistency between the idea that instructors
in Argentina view students who cannot dance on the beat as "pata dura," and
Robert Hauk's assertion that he can teach the rhythm of tango music to
Americans.

The Argentines are presumed to grow up with tango music in Buenos Aires.
They are expected to understand the music. In contrast, Americans grow up
listening to music that is very different than Argentine tango. They have
to learn to hear the music before they can dance to it.

With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 02:16:33 -0900
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Bernhard wrote:

> Actively teaching musicality would invoke a focus on exercises and
> practices whose primary goal is to enhance the musicality of the

students

> and not just make musicality a by-product. That is indeed an extremely
> difficult task for a teacher.

I completely disagree that teaching musicality is a difficult task. It
is no more difficult than any other teaching task. Given an instructor
who has made this concept a priority in their teaching and who has taken
the time to develop a useful teaching strategy for musicality, it is no
more difficult than teaching movements or anything else. Rhythm and
musicality are absolutely essential in dancing AT so as students we
should seek out and support the instructors who have made these concepts
central to their teaching strategy.

Dan

Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:41:22 +0100
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas@SAP.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

> From: Dan Boccia [mailto:redfox@ALASKA.NET]

> Bernhard wrote:
> > Actively teaching musicality would invoke a focus on exercises and
> > practices whose primary goal is to enhance the musicality of the

students

> > and not just make musicality a by-product. That is indeed an extremely
> > difficult task for a teacher.

> I completely disagree that teaching musicality is a difficult task. It
> is no more difficult than any other teaching task. Given an instructor
> who has made this concept a priority in their teaching and who has taken
> the time to develop a useful teaching strategy for musicality, it is no
> more difficult than teaching movements or anything else. Rhythm and
> musicality are absolutely essential in dancing AT so as students we
> should seek out and support the instructors who have made these concepts
> central to their teaching strategy.

> Dan

Dan,

yes, once you have a useful teaching strategy for musicality, it is no more
difficult than teaching movements. But DEVELOPING a teaching strategy and
exercises that focus on musicality (and not just makes it a by-product) seems
the difficult part.

I have no idea, how this strategy and exercises would look like and would be very
interested in how some of the tango teachers on this list teach musicality
in their classes,

Bernhard
Mountain View, CA

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:03:24 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Musicality, etc

Musical interpretation in tango is indeed a very subtle matter. Studying what
the best do (Miguel Zotto, Pupi Castello, Tete' Rusconi, and partners, among
many others, come to mind) is a major undertaking. Also, as one gets more apt
at musical interpretation, it becomes harder and harder to remain aware of
the details of what one does, let alone of why one does it (same as for other
aspects of the dance).

On the other hand I am sure that well over 90% of people who take up tango
can learn readily how to step with the slow-slow pulse of appropriate music,
pause and skip a pulse or two, and stick in quick-quick-slows. Any
difficulties that may be encountered, e.g., with milonga music, are very
rarely the result of inability to lock in on the very prominent and
straightforward pulse of most of the music that we dance to.

I believe that a large majority of leaders within this majority can be
inspired by example to use such simple devices in a way that is at least
minimally responsive to the musical discourse, illustrates it, seems moved by
it. Granted, this is not up to the highest standards of tango celebrity, but
it is a darn good start. It can be worked out with a rich natural walking
vocabulary from the first day. It often is not, and therein lies the problem.

The embrace is actually more troublesome. (Even apilado, though much less
so). For some people (both sexes) the skill is standard equipment, requiring
little instruction to keep it up to requirements. For others it is a very
expensive, heavily back ordered, option. And all shades in between. People
learn to embrace by embracing ... you know, the usual. Like many other
skills, e.g., balance, it develops over time. It is nothing that might
materialise on short order by formula. One starts by trying to emulate a good
model; practice and coaching will do the rest, one hopes. Practice does not
mean home work. It means spending long hours blissfully embraced to people
you like and like you (for the purpose) while a tango plays on. I have seen,
time and again, diligent practice do a fairly good job in seemingly hopeless
cases.

The goal is to produce a positive connection without any strain to speak of.
(What constitutes a positive connection varies according to taste and
experience. It is essentially, or should be, lady's choice. Positive
connection means, the couple have full control over their movement. They are
thoroughly together. Strain is the symptom of any force or tension that does
not contribute to that goal ... of keeping the couple moving together as they
wish to move.) This may appear at first harder than splitting hairs. In fact
the "physics" of it are not really simple. Something to do with muscle tone,
Newton's laws, etc. The practical summary can be simply and profitably
explained and demonstrated to any apprentice by someone who understands what
is going on. But words alone are of no avail.

In any case ... if there is stress in a frame, but also connection, the frame
is not great; if there is no connection, it is no frame at all. I know of no
satisfactory way of compensating for an incomplete frame. Oh, yeah, try
"close embrace" (argh!) I am here talking about the subtleties of connection,
not about the more primitive problem of a follower blocking or hampering
normal movement, or just not going there ... There are no subtleties in that.

I could go on to a third current topic, the doldrums, but the details are
easy to fill in. There are a few underlying themes in common. One is the
value of time on the job. Knowing to wait (in more ways than one). I think
that there is no active dancer that does not improve by just relaxing,
enjoying, keeping at it, forgetting about what others might think, and
waiting for the results. The concern with persisting in bad habits and making
them more engrained is not without basis, but it tends to be exaggerated.
OK, so, get yourself checked, etc, every 20 milongas, or whatever the manual
says. Besides, this is not the Bolshoi. And, as it happens, in Bolshoi land
they say that repetition is the mother of learning (rhymes in Russian). In my
land we might say: rhymes, and it is [somewhat] true.

Another theme (almost the same) is the old and true notion that you learn
primarily by doing what you want to learn. That must be the principal
component in things like dancing tango. Dancing the tango. You become a
master carpenter by doing carpentry ... though you might read a bit about
trees. The best way to help musicality along is by example, inviting
emulation; and the same with connection; balance by challenging people's
balance with dance situations or close analogues, etc. I am suspicious of
games, gimmicks, and excessive cleverness. Learning how to read used to be
fairly simple, even with as crazy a code as written English. Then experts
invented long lists of "skills", and "strategies" to meet learning "goals",
and now a lot of victims of that stuff take [literally] forever to read
decently. Later, the ones who somehow learnt, will be busy "doing" the
Michigan-Army method, which I believe is something people do on the side
while miraculously not being completely hampered by said method from learning
the foreign language they want to learn. I do not want to read "Why Johnny
Can't Tango" when it comes out.

A third theme: keep it simple. The universal solution. If an apprentice
leader cannot express the music while using simple elements, substituting
convoluted movements is a sure way to make things worse. Maybe render the
condition chronic ... or permanent. So what about NOT complicating things
until the simpler task becomes second nature (at the earliest)? If a couple
cannot walk parallel feet in heavenly harmony, what about postponing that
turn with back sacadas, ganchos, salto and chilena? Better do simpler moves
with Pupi's "postura, elegancia y compas" than more acrobatic ones with
hunching, awkwardness and arrhythmia. If following more showy leaders proves
difficult, why not try to stick to the tamer, more musical, ones until things
run flawlessly? Form versus kitsch. Quality versus quantity. Yeah, it seems
like a losing battle.

As a man studying tango and a number of other dances I learnt this: the best
method to slow learning down to a minimum and develop the worst possible form
is to be completely absorbed, together with the other dancer, in the task of
trying to go through an ever expanding prescribed sequence of steps,
preferably an un-natural, convoluted, one, to faster and faster music, with
long intervals of idleness between repetitions. It takes talent and training
to manipulate the add-on process, the rate of musical speed-up, and the
amount of dead time in between takes, so as to keep the rate of learning
infintesimally close to zero, and the form truly awful. It seems that this
was never done to perfection in tango, and that these days people are moving
further away from this ideal. Too bad.

Ciao,



HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:38:38 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Bernhard Kohlhaas writes:

> Dan,
> yes, once you have a useful teaching strategy for musicality, it is no more
> difficult than teaching movements.

I can't say that I agree with this. From what
I've seen of at least the rhythm part of musicality,
most students seem to either get it right away
naturally, or they don't.

Often an instructor will do clapping drills
in class, and it appears everyone is learning it,
but more likely many are just clapping along with
everyone else in a sort of herding instinct. Put
them by themselves out on the floor and they remain
clueless to the rhythm.

I'm not saying it's impossible to teach someone
with no natural sense of rhythm to somehow learn
it, but so far I still believe it's much more
difficult than teaching movement.

Huck

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:14:21 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Musicality

>Bernhard Kohlhaas writes:
>
>> Dan,
> > yes, once you have a useful teaching strategy for musicality,
> > it is no more difficult than teaching movements.
>
> I can't say that I agree with this. From what
>I've seen of at least the rhythm part of musicality,
>most students seem to either get it right away
>naturally, or they don't.

Maybe they should try a different instructor?

> I'm not saying it's impossible to teach someone
>with no natural sense of rhythm to somehow learn
>it, but so far I still believe it's much more
>difficult than teaching movement.
>
>Huck

I agree with Dan.

Most people can get both rhythm & musicality, if, as Dan suggests,
the teacher has a strategy and a methodology that emphasizes those
elements. I think teaching figures on the slow beat of Di Sarli is
NOT a very good strategy for learning rhythmic play or musical
expressiveness..

Many people get good at it...with practice and travel.

Some people are rather slower. With struggle and effort they can get
the rhythms, but they might never seem very fluid or musical.

--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-725-5963

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:55:29 -0600
From: Shayna Lee <shayna.lee@SHAW.CA>
Subject: Re: Musicality

> >Bernhard Kohlhaas writes:
> >
> >> Dan,
> > > yes, once you have a useful teaching strategy for musicality,
> > > it is no more difficult than teaching movements.
> >
> > I can't say that I agree with this. From what
> >I've seen of at least the rhythm part of musicality,
> >most students seem to either get it right away
> >naturally, or they don't.

As someone who began dancing with not being able to recognize a beat if I
fell over it, I have to say that musicality can definitely be taught. Rythym
to me now is as instinctive as eating and breathing. However, it took two
things - one of which was an instructor who knew what to teach and the
other, a student with both a strong desire to learn as well as a belief
that we can learn anything we so desire.

From what I see of most dancers who disregard the beat of the music, for the
most part they refuse to believe that they can learn and so may go through
the exercises of 'clapping hands with the class' or whatever, but that is
the the extent of it. A small percentage diligently persists and without
fail, sooner or later, they begin to hear the beat. At this point they can
dance on time, probably not yet with rythym. Rythym comes later, but once
hearing the beat, it does come for the persistent ones.

Shayna Lee

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:33:51 +0100
From: "Kohlhaas, Bernhard" <bernhard.kohlhaas@SAP.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality

> From: Huck Kennedy [mailto:huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu]

> Bernhard Kohlhaas writes:
>
> > Dan,
> > yes, once you have a useful teaching strategy for
> musicality, it is no more
> > difficult than teaching movements.
>
> I can't say that I agree with this. From what
> I've seen of at least the rhythm part of musicality,
> most students seem to either get it right away
> naturally, or they don't.

Huck,

please note the prerequisite "Once you have a useful
teaching strategy for musicality" as an important pre-condition.
Basically IMHO that just shifts the difficulty from "It is difficult
to teach musicality" to "It is difficult to create a useful
teaching strategy for musicality" and really does not solve anything.

Quite frankly I have experienced very few tango teachers who incorporate
aspects of musicality into their classes let alone have a useful and
consistent teaching strategy for it. But then perhaps my expectations toward
"useful" and "consistent" are too high...

The reasons why some seem to get it is, because their brain is pre-wired
to be receptive to that, just as a child's brain is pre-wired to learn a
language, simply by consistent exposure.

Just like some students don't get it as you say, an adult who learns
a foreign language may have trouble picking up differences in pronunciations
and melody, because he or she does not know what to listen for.
This is the point where any useful teaching strategy comes into play, as
the teacher has to teach what to listen for (e.g. in learning a language
by highlighting and "over-stressing" differences between different sounds).

> Often an instructor will do clapping drills
> in class, and it appears everyone is learning it,
> but more likely many are just clapping along with
> everyone else in a sort of herding instinct. Put
> them by themselves out on the floor and they remain
> clueless to the rhythm.

A clapping drill is just an exercise, perhaps a more useful one, if
done several times over the course of multiple lessons. It is not a
teaching strategy however.

> I'm not saying it's impossible to teach someone
> with no natural sense of rhythm to somehow learn
> it, but so far I still believe it's much more
> difficult than teaching movement.

I agree with you and whether the difficulty lies in the actual
teaching or the development of a teaching strategy is a bit like
splitting hair. The question is "How is it to be done?"

A final remark toward my criticism of tango teachers:
As always it is a question of supply and demand, so a teacher who
focuses on musicality may very well find that his students who have
little or no understanding of its importance may venture of to other
teachers who focus on other aspects that seem more important
to the students. That would make the teacher shift his/her focus
to a much "attractive" curriculum very quickly.

So perhaps before ever teaching musicality, students need to be
convinced that musicality is important.

Bernhard
Mountain View, CA

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:17:41 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Musicality

Tom Stermitz writes:

> > I can't say that I agree with this. From what
> >I've seen of at least the rhythm part of musicality,
> >most students seem to either get it right away
> >naturally, or they don't.
>
> Maybe they should try a different instructor?

Indeed, as Bernhard points out, most instructors
have little to no effective methodologies for doing this.
With regard to learning rhythm (which has been the extent
of my discussion), I've never seen anything besides the
tiresome clapping drills, where the students who don't
get rhythm just follow along with everyone else but
can't find the rhythm on their own. I can see how
extended exercises (perhaps in a private?) might help
those having difficulty, but the brief run-through
at the beginning of most group classes seem pretty
much a waste of time for both those who already know
rhythm and those who don't.

Shayna Lee makes a good point when she says that
a student with no natural sense of rhythm can learn
with the right teacher if they have a burning enough
desire to learn. Unfortunately, not having a sense
of rhythm corresponds to no real desire to learn for
many such students, because they don't understand the
need either (sort of like a Catch-22, or from another
angle, "I don't have any rhythm -- it doesn't bother
me in the slightest, I still have a great time at
milongas, but it drives some of my partners crazy!").

> > I'm not saying it's impossible to teach someone
> >with no natural sense of rhythm to somehow learn
> >it, but so far I still believe it's much more
> >difficult than teaching movement.
>
> I agree with Dan. [...]
>
> Some people are rather slower. With struggle and effort they can get
> the rhythms, but they might never seem very fluid or musical.

Isn't that what I'm saying above? That teaching
rhytym to someone without a natural sense for it
is much more difficult than teaching movement? Or
do you contend that teaching rhythm is just as easy
as teaching movement? I don't think I've ever seen
a student having trouble with movement struggle
anywhere near as long and hard with it as a student
having trouble with rhythm.

Huck

Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:03:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Musicality

> Just like some students don't get it as you say, an adult who learns
> a foreign language may have trouble picking up differences in

pronunciations

> and melody, because he or she does not know what to listen for.
> This is the point where any useful teaching strategy comes into play, as
> the teacher has to teach what to listen for (e.g. in learning a language
> by highlighting and "over-stressing" differences between different

sounds).

>

In my experience with Japanese tango dancers, only one man, a new beginnner,
ever has asked me where the beat in tango is, because, as he admitted, "he
really did not have a clue how to find it". With all the other people who
were not very rhythmical, the problem was always, that they stepped just
before, or just after the beat. They are obviously not deaf to the beat, but
how would you explain that, and what would you tell THEM ?

Astrid

Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:58:48 -0900
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Musicality

More thoughts for consideration:

1. Musicality was immediately made important to me in
the very first good milonga I ever attended. A group of several women
and a couple guys who I had observed dancing most of the night and who
were obviously quite skilled and mature in their dancing were talking
amongst themselves, commenting on the dancers in the room. Over and
over the emphasis within this group was on "how musical" such and such a
dancer is, and also how wonderful their connection was. Never a word
spoken about steps, figures, etc., just a huge emphasis on musicality.
I decided there and then that I wanted to become a "musical" dancer.
This same scenario has repeated itself in milongas all over that I have
been to. That's enough of a motivating force for me to seek out
instructors who focus on musicality (among other important things).
2. OK, so it's difficult to create a useful teaching
strategy for musicality, and I don't disagree. However, a useful
teaching strategy for anything, whether it be for teaching skiing,
kindergarten, figures for intermediate dancers, dance connection, or
whatever, is the result of a lot of effort on the instructor's part.
There is simply no such thing as a useful teaching strategy that is not
the product of a lot of work by the instructor to get there. If we
continue to believe that musicality is such a horribly difficult
subject, we'll never get anywhere. The really good INSTRUCTORS (as
opposed to dancers who simply demonstrate their movements and call it
teaching) have put in the hard work to develop teaching strategies.
3. Although musicality can be taught as a subject all
on its own, it is best taught as a fundamental element of good social
dance instruction. A class full of people clapping to the beat of the
music is not necessarily the vision I had in mind. Dance involves
movement, and my concept of musicality is how to get people to move in a
way that expresses the music they are listening to. Thus, movement is
fundamentally tied to musicality as far as dancers are concerned. The
real goal is to find teachers who teach useful movements that allow us
to express the way the music makes us feel. The teachers who teach us a
figure with show music in the background are not getting us there. The
instructors who put on really good dance music, give us an understanding
of how the music is structured and points out the way the music is
phrased, how it pauses and speeds up, etc., etc., and teach us movements
and technique that allow us to express this music are the ones who get
my vote for being useful social dance instructors. It is all tied
together. Since the vast majority of good social tango music is quite
rhythmic, rhythm tends to be a common topic of the instructors who teach
useful things for social dancing, but how to dance to the pauses,
silences, the vocals, and melodies in the music is also very important.

Dan

Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:55:58 EST
From: Joanne Prochaska <JOANNEPROCHASKA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Musicality and its consequences!

Dear Lynn in NYC,
Thank you so much for your good wishes for Tim and I. I was quite surprised
to see Tim's proposal on the L- List, but, as I thought more about it, why
not? It's the perfect place, since if it weren't for tango, there would be
no "us". It is how we met and it is why we met. It is what we dance and it
is what we teach. It is what we like and it is what we love. We can tango
anywhere, anytime, in sox or shoes, to almost any music, until we are old and
grey, and then after that too. Are we nuts, or what?

It has been said that, after her wedding day, the thing most remembered by a
woman is the proposal. I always thought it was cool when a guy proposed to
his gal in a big way, like on TV or via some other huge, very visible venue.
Now it has happened to me, and believe me, it really is COOL !
So if you ever come to Cleveland, OH, drop in for our weekly Wed. practica or
our monthly milonga, first Sat. of the month. More info on our website
www.tangocleveland.com. We love visitors.
Happy dancing and Happy Trails to you until we meet again.
Joanne

Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:25:17 -0500
From: Alberto Sanders <tangotango@EUROPE.COM>
Subject: Musicality

Hi everyone

I've been reading all your e-mails regardign musicality, and I think
all of them give a way of understanding musicality.

I have also found a very interesting aproch to music, in the book
"Tango, the structure of the dance, VOL. 2". It has 2 or 3 chapters
about it.
A very unique non traditional way to music.


Saludos
--
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:15:04 -0800
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Musicality

These are my observations from a recent workshop with a tango master from
Buenos Aires, where I brought up the issue of musicality and how to dance
to orchestras such as D'Arienzo, Biagi, as opposed to DiSarli, and Pugliese.

1. Regardless of the style -- milonguero or not -- maintain a great posture
with shoulders back, chest up, and feet collected. The
woman does not arch her back, does not pull her face or head away from
the man, but places her head and faces directly into the
man's chest if the man is taller than the woman.

2. The man brings/collects his feet after each step, and maintains his feet
parallel to the woman's feet leading her into figures such
as a sacada or turn.

3. The woman maintains her knees together and slightly bent/flexed (as a way
to address the man's foot) after stepping over the man's
foot at a parada (stop).

4. Two of the ways to dance D'Arienzo or Biagi are using the milonguero
style, or by following the intensity of the music. The second
option allows for more improvisation as the man uses quicker movements
to accompany and follow the music. By following the
intensity of the music turns are executed faster, the sacadas are more
pronounced, the man use his body to accentuate the sharp
beat ot the D'Arienzo/Biagi music. For example, he may interpret the
music by moving sideways (swaying) with his shoulder and
arms (sort of canyengue style), but with his feet and legs following the
bursts of intensity of the music. The man is required to
execute precise footwork in order not interfere with other people's line
of dance. The challenge seems not to think of the next step
as if to avoid braking the connection with the music and the woman.

5. Be consistent in making your steps of the same length or stride. If you
do not have room to take the next step do not take the
next step and attempt to make baby steps to continue dancing.

Exercises to try:

a. Walk fast and take long steps as if you are stepping on the the sharp
beats or accents of the D'Arienzo/Biagi music.

b. Lead a fast turn of 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 steps. In leading a fast turn step
outside the woman rather than inside.

c. Lead a fast turn with sacadas, but make the sacada very pronounced by
raising your leg a bit and pressing down on the floor.
The back sacadas looked great.

If you have any other ideas in dancing to D'Arienzo/Biagi music please let
me know. I have been told that also music from the later part of Canaro's
music can be used to dance in this way, but I do not have any examples of
Canaro music.

Bruno

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:56:48 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Musicality

>These are my observations from a recent workshop with a tango master from
>Buenos Aires, where I brought up the issue of musicality and how to dance
>to orchestras such as D'Arienzo, Biagi, as opposed to DiSarli, and Pugliese.
>
>1. Regardless of the style -- milonguero or not -- maintain a great posture
>...
>2. The man brings/collects his feet after each step, and maintains his feet
>...
>3. The woman maintains her knees together and slightly bent/flexed (as a way
>...
>4. Two of the ways to dance D'Arienzo or Biagi are using the milonguero
>style, or by following the intensity of the music. The second
> option allows for more improvisation as the man uses quicker movements
>to accompany and follow the music. By following the
>...
>5. Be consistent in making your steps of the same length or stride. If you
>...
>Exercises to try:
>a. Walk fast and take long steps as if you are stepping on the the sharp
>...
>b. Lead a fast turn of 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 steps. In leading a fast turn step
>...
>c. Lead a fast turn with sacadas, but make the sacada very pronounced by
>...

Was this person really a "master tango teacher", or was he just a
"master tango dancer" who shows steps? Are his credentials based on
his stage skill or his teaching skill?

Some of the best social dancers are not very good at explaining how
to tango. Some of the best stage dancers are not very good at
explaining social tango.

It takes thought and creativity to be a good teacher; it is very easy
to show steps. "Walk this way...no, this way!" Sometimes the best
teacher is one for whom learning tango was a struggle. Natural,
intuitive dancers often don't know what they do or why they do it.


Missing answers:

Your question was about musicality, but answers 1, 2 & 3 were on
technique, not musicality. Answer 5 & 6? specified some steps to do
with the suggestion that they be done "fast".

Perhaps he didn't understand your question, because only answer 4 had
anything to do with musicality. But even here his (her?) answer was
more of an admonition, than a useful idea about musicality.

Ironically, the music of Di Sarli & D'Arienzo run about the same
tempo. A lot of the earlier Di Sarli from 1939 is actually faster
than D'Arienzo, so telling you to walk fast simply doesn't make any
sense.


Really, there are a hundred answers about how to express the rhythm &
music of D'Arienzo, and another hundred on how to express the music
of Di Sarli. There are probably a 1,000 answers to the question on
Pugliese, but I don't think you received a single useful answer.


--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-725-5963

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:46:49 -0800
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Musicality

You can rest assured that the maestro I am referring to in this posting have
excellent credentials.
Tom Stermitz wrote < .... >
<Your question was about musicality, but answers 1, 2 & 3 were on
technique, not musicality. Answer 5 & 6? specified some steps to do
with the suggestion that they be done "fast".>

I usually beat around the bush before giving a straight answer but answers
1, 2, and 3 were meant to correct basic mistakes (mine!):).

Walking for the sake of walking fast is not what he said or meant. To walk
the way the maestro does is no easy task. Think of the compadrito walk or
tango walk. This is not ordinary walk.
Walking fast like Osvaldo Sotto does is not the same as someone walking fast
down the street. I thought that since we are talking about tango the
"walking" as tango is a "walking dance" is different than ordinary walk. I
practice walking to different rhythms from various orchestras and I can tell
you I do not feel it the same way.

<Perhaps he didn't understand your question, because only answer 4 had
anything to do with musicality. But even here his (her?) answer was
more of an admonition, than a useful idea about musicality.>

The idea was for the instructor to demonstrate examples of dancing to
D'Arienzo/Biagi rather than showing isolated movements or figures. The
instructor knew I have been pursuing the idea of musicality for quite some
time. He did not say to move/walk fast rather what I observed was that his
dance movements were obviously fast and faster than the ones used dancing to
other music.

What the "maestro" said about musicality is that it comes with time and is a
sign of maturity. The body follows the music intuitively.

<Really, there are a hundred answers about how to express the rhythm &
music of D'Arienzo, and another hundred on how to express the music
of Di Sarli.>

I said "two of the ways" I never said the only two ways to dance...........

Bruno