3330 myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:03:51 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
Burak wrote:
<Milongueros-(once they were young too) used to do the same thing in 50s,
unfortunately only guys got together in clubs and practice, tried new
"stuff", then goto milonga grab a woman and try to show other guys
if they can do the new stuff they practiced. >
Not exactly. I know milongueros who never practiced with other guys, but
who learned watching for years in the milongas and developed their own
unique style. I also know one who learned at 14 from a milonguero in his
20s who taught him and a few friends. He learned to dance the woman's role
with his friends--he was the only one willing to do it. In their dancing
days, if one couldn't dance well, no woman would dance with you. You could
only go when you were ready to dance well; the milonga never was for
practicing. It wasn't about showing off to friends. It was about having
your partner dance well and enjoy it.
<In 50s this was "new" for traditional tango, but gave birth to
"practicas".>
You can talk to the milongueros about this. There were no organized
practicas like there are today. A group of friends might meet on a street
corner, but that was about it. A milonguero practiced for months alone
before he proved himself on the social dance floor.
<Nowadays the history repeats itself, young milongueros from 50s, replaced
by young tango dancers from 21st century, the young crowd will be called as
"nuevo milongueros-tangueros" but note that there would be a BIG difference
between "milonguero" and "nuevo milonguero">
milonguero: one who was self-taught and developed his own individual style
of tango; he went to dance every night of the week in the downtown
confiterias
and cabarets--he lived for the tango without a care about money or work.
tanguero: one who loves the music of tango, not necessarily the dance.
Buenos Aires has thousands of tangueros, but only 30 milongueros.
There will never be a new generation of milongueros, since everyone learns
by copying others.
<female dancers will be more dominant, more teachers and more dancers than
male dancers and teachers. we couldn't have chance to dance with many
milongueras, for sure next generation will be more lucky.>
It has taken me years to learn who the milongueros are. There are so few of
them in the milongas. It's a shame that so few are interested in studying
with them. Once the milongueros are gone, their tango will be gone because
no one is passing on what they alone know. I know one true
milonguera--Amanda Lucero.
Janis
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:07:09 -0600
From: el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
Janis knows 30 milongueros more than i could for sure. Let's assume
that every year 10 milongueros has died until now, (since 1950).
50 years X 10= 500
I don't believe there were 500 dancers in 50s in BSAs. Even the
number of Tango Orchestras was close to 600 in 1945.
this sounds to me that milongueros were used to form a substyle of
tango even in 50s. If someone has any historical information about it,
i would like to learn more.
what about the women dancers? Janis says only one left. There is my
idol,Carmencita Calderon, is she NOT a "true" milonguera? Did she
learn how to dance 20 years ago? not at all.
she just celebrated her 106th birthday, during the festival. I didn't
see any old milongueros who congratulate or show their support to her
on the stage. the oldest tangueros were Eduardo Arquimbau and Chiche.
I was there along with thousands of tango lovers.
There is so much to read, search and so many sources to get advised.
burak
Minneapolis
www.tangoshusheta.com
On Apr 1, 2005 2:03 PM, Janis Kenyon <jantango@feedback.net.ar> wrote:
> Burak wrote:
> <Milongueros-(once they were young too) used to do the same thing in 50s,
> unfortunately only guys got together in clubs and practice, tried new
> "stuff", then goto milonga grab a woman and try to show other guys
> if they can do the new stuff they practiced. >
>
> Not exactly. I know milongueros who never practiced with other guys, but
> who learned watching for years in the milongas and developed their own
> unique style. I also know one who learned at 14 from a milonguero in his
> 20s who taught him and a few friends. He learned to dance the woman's role
> with his friends--he was the only one willing to do it. In their dancing
> days, if one couldn't dance well, no woman would dance with you. You could
> only go when you were ready to dance well; the milonga never was for
> practicing. It wasn't about showing off to friends. It was about having
> your partner dance well and enjoy it.
>
> <In 50s this was "new" for traditional tango, but gave birth to
> "practicas".>
>
> You can talk to the milongueros about this. There were no organized
> practicas like there are today. A group of friends might meet on a street
> corner, but that was about it. A milonguero practiced for months alone
> before he proved himself on the social dance floor.
>
> <Nowadays the history repeats itself, young milongueros from 50s, replaced
> by young tango dancers from 21st century, the young crowd will be called as
> "nuevo milongueros-tangueros" but note that there would be a BIG difference
> between "milonguero" and "nuevo milonguero">
>
> milonguero: one who was self-taught and developed his own individual style
> of tango; he went to dance every night of the week in the downtown
> confiterias
> and cabarets--he lived for the tango without a care about money or work.
>
> tanguero: one who loves the music of tango, not necessarily the dance.
> Buenos Aires has thousands of tangueros, but only 30 milongueros.
>
> There will never be a new generation of milongueros, since everyone learns
> by copying others.
>
> <female dancers will be more dominant, more teachers and more dancers than
> male dancers and teachers. we couldn't have chance to dance with many
> milongueras, for sure next generation will be more lucky.>
>
> It has taken me years to learn who the milongueros are. There are so few of
> them in the milongas. It's a shame that so few are interested in studying
> with them. Once the milongueros are gone, their tango will be gone because
> no one is passing on what they alone know. I know one true
> milonguera--Amanda Lucero.
>
> Janis
>
>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:20:52 -0800
From: Sally Potter <tango_lesson2005@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
Janis Kenyon wrote:
"Buenos Aires has thousands of tangueros, but only 30
milongueros."
Please get over yourself.
Janis Kenyon wrote:
"milonguero: one who was self-taught and developed his
own individual style of tango; ...It's a shame that so
few are interested in studying with them. Once the
milongueros are gone, their tango will be gone because
no one is passing on what they alone know."
So on the one hand a milonguero is self-taught, but on
the other hand they will disappear because no one
wants to study from them. Hmmmm.... Don't you see
just a teenie-weenie contradication there, Janis?
Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:38:47 -0500
From: ako <ako31@NYC.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
sally potter wrote:
So on the one hand a milonguero is self-taught, but on
the other hand they will disappear because no one
wants to study from them. Hmmmm.... Don't you see
just a teenie-weenie contradication there, Janis?
a great dancer does not a great teacher make. excuse my poor grammar,
but u get the point. i remember when i was a dancer in nyc in the 70's
there were still a bunch of people emulating and performing the work of
isadora duncan (self taught). i am sure there is still an audience for
it. i think that a large amount of romanticizing of any art form and
it's creators takes place by generations who are removed from it by
time and/or place. there are 'phish heads' and 'dead heads' in the
usa- kids who dress like it is 1970 and follow the musical style of the
time.
when i was in buenos aires a few weeks ago i met two young
dancers/performers -Anton Gazenbeek and Natalie Laruccia
(https://natalieyantontango.9k.com/index.html). anton is from holland
and natalie from italy. they have been studying and researching the
milangueros and have unearthed some home movies from the 50's and 60's.
they emulate and perform the style as well as study with them. they
have deconstructed various milonguero techniques like scientists. my
hats off to them and their zealousness.
i personally enjoy any style of lead in which my partner is connected
and relaxed (not testing out a step they just learned in a class before
the milonga by the milonguero du jour- as was the case after nito's in
nyc this past week), inserts his own creativity without interrupting
the flow of the dance, and i am not 'awakened' by incongruous moves
borrowed from well known maestros. i believe in 'dancing who you are'
and understand that derivations are unavoidable in any art form but
will i soon be dancing with 'milonguero heads' ?
andrea
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:01:54 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
Dear Andrea:
Andrea, perhaps you need to "be awakened" by an
incongruous step every once in awhile, instead of
falling to sleep while you are dancing....lol.
To me the truly great dancers are ALL SELF TAUGHT,
whether they take classes from teachers or not, and
this is especially true in Argentine Tango, because it
is fundamentally a "street dance" from Argentina full
of "surprises", "ironies" and "incongruities".
Most of the streets in Buenos Aires, where the dance
began, are cobble stone. Just look at the street that
Carlos Gardel sang about. These streets were less than
perfect dance floors. Even today women still dance on
these streets in high heels or whatever, and they
probably go through a lot of shoes as a result, but to
me, they and their partners are the really wonderful
dancers of tango, because they are full of the spirit
of the land, and they can handle anything, cobble
stones, surprises, whatever.
My point is that Argentine Tango is a dance of the
heart and soul, not a dance of tango teachers. One
learns tango from wherever one can. To me great
teachers should be able to dance well, and "non
teachers" should be able to create a new step.
I think that Janis Kenyon is absolutely right about
the value of the few remaining milongueros to the
dance. I also think it is wonderful that the young
couple from the Netherlands and Italy are in Buenos
Aires learning everything they can from the self
taught surviving milongeros. This is smart. Good for
them.
To me, what the young people in Buenos Aires are
doing, is the real future of Argentine Tango. The
young people are learning from the older people who
have the "self taught" skills, and the heart and soul
to go along with these skills. This is the living
history of the tango and it is being tied to the
future expression of the dance by the young dancers
who will add more to the dance. It is not "rose in
the teeth" and "MacDonald's" close embrace tango,
created artificially in the US, which does not even
"look" or "feel" like Argentine tango.
To me, we Americans in the US are a lot like the
Finns.
The Finnish in Finland, also have their own tango,
just like the Americans in the US. In fact, tango, is
the national dance of Finland. The Finnish tango,
however, does not look or feel like Argentine Tango at
all. I know this, because my family is from the part
of Russia that was Sweden, then Russia, and finally,
the independent country of Finland. My mom, Natasha,
from a Russian-Swedish family, became a Finnish
citizen for awhile, before becoming a US citizen. My
grandfather, also a Russian-Swede, danced Argentine
Tango at the French Club (Club Sportif Francais) in
Shanghai, China. He did not dance Finnish Tango. He
said that it was not the same thing at all.
Anyway, I think that perhaps the Americans in the US
and the Finnish, are very creative, and that is
wonderful thing, BUT they are not really dancing
Argentine Tango! They are dancing their own dance
with each other. There is nothing wrong with this,
but these dances should be called what they are:
American (US) Tango ("rose in the teeth", "Hollywood
tango", "close embrace tango all the time", etc.)
Finnish Tango ("hold your partner tango")
Neither of these dances is quite the Argentine Tango.
They are not "wrong". They are just national dances of
other countries which were derived from the original
Argentine tango. They reflect other national cultures,
not Argentine culture. This is fine with me, but like
my grandfather in Shanghai, I want to dance Argentine
tango, because for me that is the culture that is the
source of the dance, it is not just memorized steps.
To me derivatives of tango from other cultures are
just not as interesting or as deep as Argentine Tango.
The history for them is not there yet. To me they
soon become rather dull and boring, because they are
limited.
Anyway, I am all for "surprises" in a dance. That is
the moment when one has to be creative...lol. Have a
good day.
My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- ako <ako31@NYC.RR.COM> wrote:
> sally potter wrote:
> So on the one hand a milonguero is self-taught, but
> on
> the other hand they will disappear because no one
> wants to study from them. Hmmmm.... Don't you see
> just a teenie-weenie contradication there, Janis?
>
>
> a great dancer does not a great teacher make. excuse
> my poor grammar,
> but u get the point. i remember when i was a dancer
> in nyc in the 70's
> there were still a bunch of people emulating and
> performing the work of
> isadora duncan (self taught). i am sure there is
> still an audience for
> it. i think that a large amount of romanticizing of
> any art form and
> it's creators takes place by generations who are
> removed from it by
> time and/or place. there are 'phish heads' and
> 'dead heads' in the
> usa- kids who dress like it is 1970 and follow the
> musical style of the
> time.
>
> when i was in buenos aires a few weeks ago i met two
> young
> dancers/performers -Anton Gazenbeek and Natalie
> Laruccia
> (https://natalieyantontango.9k.com/index.html). anton
> is from holland
> and natalie from italy. they have been studying and
> researching the
> milangueros and have unearthed some home movies from
> the 50's and 60's.
> they emulate and perform the style as well as study
> with them. they
> have deconstructed various milonguero techniques
> like scientists. my
> hats off to them and their zealousness.
>
> i personally enjoy any style of lead in which my
> partner is connected
> and relaxed (not testing out a step they just
> learned in a class before
> the milonga by the milonguero du jour- as was the
> case after nito's in
> nyc this past week), inserts his own creativity
> without interrupting
> the flow of the dance, and i am not 'awakened' by
> incongruous moves
> borrowed from well known maestros. i believe in
> 'dancing who you are'
> and understand that derivations are unavoidable in
> any art form but
> will i soon be dancing with 'milonguero heads' ?
>
> andrea
>
>
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:07:33 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
Really?
I always thought that Anton Gazenbeek is from San Francisco.
Since I watched him learning tango. It looks like he grew up. So fast!
Igor Polk from San Francisco.
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:24:46 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: myth versus reality in Buenos Aires
--- Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
> You could only go when you were ready to dance well;
> the milonga never was for practicing. It wasn't
> about showing off to friends. It was about having
> your partner dance well and enjoy it.
>
> ...
> A milonguero practiced for months alone
> before he proved himself on the social dance floor.
How could a person learn to dance in a way that let
his partner dance well and enjoy it by practicing
_alone_?
Marisa
