4120 Neuvo vs Traditional
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:09:57 EDT
From: TimmyTango@AOL.COM
Subject: Neuvo vs Traditional
-----Original Message-----
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 06:06:26 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional (Nuevo includes traditional)
Dear Timmy:
What the kids have seen in the nuevo tango system is
ALL THE POSSIBILITIES IN ARGENTINE TANGO. The kids
are not stuck in the old ideas. They can do the
traditional Argentine Tango just fine, both close and
open embrace (by simply changing the embrace
immediately as they are dancing) AND they can do much
more. The nuevo system is also flexible enough to
allow brand new "non tango material" (ie: complex
embrace changes like in Salsa) to be added to the
traditional tango at will, or left out.
The kids know how to dance traditional Argentine Tango
and they do it all the time when the floor is crowded
in the beginning of the evening with the old folks.
After the old folks leave, then the kids have extra
fun by experimenting with new material. They also go
to their own places where they have more freedom and
less criticism, like Villa Malcolm. This is normal.
Note: This same kind of thing also used to happened
here in the USA in the 1960's when the kids had their
rock n roll band to play alternative music after the
adults danced to their favorite foxtrot orchestra, and
then went home early. The kids also had their own
rock n roll places to dance, so the adults would not
bring them down and restrict them.
Frankly, I think that the kids new found ability to
refresh and revitalize Argentine Tango is exactly what
it needs. The world moves on. The old becomes new
again. Content from new ideas and energy from the
kids is the most important thing that is going on
right now in Argentine Tango. Out of date, old,
rigid rules of grammar are boring. Tango needs new
grammar and the kids are working it out.
Rules must always follow ideas, not get in the way to
stifle them. The kids are the ones who will teach all
of us in the end. Just ask Astor Piazzolla and his
friends. When Argentine Tango died in 1955 with the
introduction of the more refreshing rock n roll,
Astor's music was the only tango music the kids liked.
Astor explored new territory and the kids understood
what he was doing. The adults reacted by threatening
Piazzolla and beating him up because he was changing
tango. Kids went to Astor's concerts in droves, and
the adults stayed away. Today, the reaction to nuevo
is much the same.
If I were you I would learn the nuevo tango system and
try to figure out what is really going on in BsAs,
instead of ignoring what is coming. Creativity is the
thing. Get out of the box for a change. Learn some new
stuff. My opinion. Thanks.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- TimmyTango@AOL.COM wrote:
> Timmy here:
> I enjoyed reading every word you wrote Tom.
> It's extremely difficult to teach tango and keep
> students when there are
> teachers who will teach what the student wants to
> learn, verus what the student
> needs to learn.
> Joanne and I both feel a person should learn the
> basics of tango first. To
> learn the social dance first before going on to
> other areas of tango. Learn to
> navigate around the dance floor before you learn to
> through a lady up in the
> air, or kick between their legs. And how many ladies
> I see don't, and are not
> taught, the importance of collecting their feet.
> They just want to learn
> colgatas and leg raps instead.
>
> I lost count on how many instructors I have had
> lessons with who constantly
> tell us the walk is the whole dance, and how they
> spent years perfecting their
> walk.
> It's taken years to where I'm finally seeing the
> people in Cleveland really
> dancing social tango well. Now with Neuvo being
> introduced, I'm sure the social
> dance will lower in quality. I have talked with
> other cities where they
> started out dancing Milonguero and when Neuvo
> started, the floor craft went down.
>
> What I do see positive about Neuvo is that it is
> bringing young people into
> tango. And I hear in Buenos Aires especially. But
> soon the kids see the
> traditional tango and then are hooked on what I feel
> is the most romantic style of
> tango to dance. For Joanne and I it's the contact we
> have when we dance that we
> love.
> For those who favor Neuvo, or Alturnitive, I have no
> problem with this. But I
> do feel if you're going to hold a milonga keep it
> one or the other, not a
> combination of the two.
> I don't want to sit at a table waiting for a
> traditional tango, and I'm sure
> the people who prefer alturnitive don't want to wait
> for something they would
> want to dance to either.
>
>
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 11:36:10 -0700
From: Sean Dockery <sean13@MYREALBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional
Hi All,
Just read through Tom's thoughts on teaching beginners (bellow), most of which I am in agreement with. However, in creating his order of teaching, T=
om put turns last.
In our community (San Francisco) there are lots of teachers who produce lots of intermediate dancers, many of whom (quite unfortunately) teach beg=
inners on the dance floor. For this reason, I like to teach beginners "servival molinetes". After all, nobody will do perfect molinete after thei=
r first class on the subject, so its good to get them started on a subject that they will probably spend years on. Also, if beginning followers c=
an get around the "Intermediate" leaders in a crude sort of forward- side-back-side, they are less likely to get an earful of advice on "how to do=
a grapevine". In addition, if you teach leaders to lead the molinete well in the first place (without any complex patterns) this will avoid misco=
nceptions later that leaders often get about the follower's role when they learn complex patterns (often taught with very little technique) The ke=
y is to teach the basic technique of the turn, and not show any "patterns" at all.
Sean
__________
People learn linear motions easiest, and circular motions much slower. This
makes sense if you consider how little we spiral and pivot in our normal,
walk-a-day world.
Nuevo Techniques (to me) involve a lot of pivoting and spiraling motions,
which are best introduced later on in the learning process. I prefer it to be
MUCH later on, after people have balance, lead-follow; after they already know
what tango looks and feels like; after they can pretty much ALREADY dance tango.
LINEAR BEFORE CIRCULAR
There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners: rhythms, lead-follow, musical
phrasing, connection, embrace, clean steps, heels down (straight legs). In
fact, a beginner guy can learn enough in one hour to walk a lovely beginner lady
around the room that same day. It is a whole lot easier to learn to TANGO (a
simple tango) than it is to learn the VOCABULARY OF TANGO.
NEGATIVE TECHNIQUE
I'm sure you have seen the poor beginner ladies being cranked off balance by
intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos. If they don't quit, they
are embodying bad habits which will take twice as long to remove. Some teachers
even show ochos in the first classes, before students can hear the beat,
before they can stand upright. And then those same bad Intermediates insist on
teaching the grapevine to every new lady that walks in the door.
A sensible learning methodology would ensure skills build in a logical
sequence:
(1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of the social dance floor, and
Balance
(2) Hearing the musical phrase, initiating/receiving movement, lead-follow
and Balance
(3) Spiraling, no-pivot ochos (close-embrace) and Balance
(4) Spiraling while pivoting (turning ochos or open embrace ochos) and
Balance
(5) Turns still take a lot of practice, but... at least there is a technical
foundation for turns.
SLOWING DOWN THE LEARNING PROCESS
I think many teachers are excited about teaching cool moves, and fail to
provide a good foundation for LATER learning cool moves.
Teaching out of order doesn't speed up the learning process. To the contrary,
it slows people down because they pick up bad habits which take twice as long
to correct. At the worst end, you create a conception of tango as "A BUNCH of
COOL MOVES", rather than cool moves are "SIMPLY THINGS TO DO WHILE DANCING
TANGO".
I see a lot of intermediates with tons of vocabulary but ZERO musicality and
NEGATIVE technique. The poor women who crouch while walking backwards, or on
the other extreme look like they have a stick stuck where the sun doesn't
shine; the poor guys walking around with a hunch, or cranking with their arms.
These bad habits sometimes infect whole communities.... or if we are a little more
lucky, only the segment of the community tied to certain teachers.
Timmy here:
I enjoyed reading every word you wrote Tom.
It's extremely difficult to teach tango and keep students when there are
teachers who will teach what the student wants to learn, verus what the student
needs to learn.
Joanne and I both feel a person should learn the basics of tango first. To
learn the social dance first before going on to other areas of tango. Learn to
navigate around the dance floor before you learn to through a lady up in the
air, or kick between their legs. And how many ladies I see don't, and are not
taught, the importance of collecting their feet. They just want to learn
colgatas and leg raps instead.
I lost count on how many instructors I have had lessons with who constantly
tell us the walk is the whole dance, and how they spent years perfecting their
walk.
It's taken years to where I'm finally seeing the people in Cleveland really
dancing social tango well. Now with Neuvo being introduced, I'm sure the social
dance will lower in quality. I have talked with other cities where they
started out dancing Milonguero and when Neuvo started, the floor craft went down.
What I do see positive about Neuvo is that it is bringing young people into
tango. And I hear in Buenos Aires especially. But soon the kids see the
traditional tango and then are hooked on what I feel is the most romantic style of
tango to dance. For Joanne and I it's the contact we have when we dance that we
love.
For those who favor Neuvo, or Alturnitive, I have no problem with this. But I
do feel if you're going to hold a milonga keep it one or the other, not a
combination of the two.
I don't want to sit at a table waiting for a traditional tango, and I'm sure
the people who prefer alturnitive don't want to wait for something they would
want to dance to either.
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:52:43 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional
Yes, survival molinetes can be useful. Or, survival open-embrace ochos.
But, it is a rare woman who ON THE FIRST DAY has the balance to pivot
and spiral at the same time, while walking backwards. Maybe I agree
more with you if we are talking about the second month.
It is certainly typical for an intermediate guy to be incapable of
removing vocabulary to make the new follower comfortable. Yes, they
either crank her with their arms, or take them aside to teach.
I think they are also just so caught up in working on their vocabular
(or the last cool move they paid $35 to learn), that they don't think
of their partners' needs.
On Apr 9, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Sean Dockery wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just read through Tom's thoughts on teaching beginners (bellow),
> most of which I am in agreement with. However, in creating his
> order of teaching, Tom put turns last.
> In our community (San Francisco) there are lots of teachers who
> produce lots of intermediate dancers, many of whom (quite
> unfortunately) teach beginners on the dance floor. For this
> reason, I like to teach beginners "servival molinetes". After all,
> nobody will do perfect molinete after their first class on the
> subject, so its good to get them started on a subject that they
> will probably spend years on. Also, if beginning followers can get
> around the "Intermediate" leaders in a crude sort of forward- side-
> back-side, they are less likely to get an earful of advice on "how
> to do a grapevine". In addition, if you teach leaders to lead the
> molinete well in the first place (without any complex patterns)
> this will avoid misconceptions later that leaders often get about
> the follower's role when they learn complex patterns (often taught
> with very little technique) The key is to teach the basic technique
> of the turn, and not show any "patterns" at all.
>
> Sean
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 12:09:08 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional (turns)
Hi all
If you can't do turns, pausing is the only simple way to not crash into the couple ahead of you. I like pauses, of course, but turns are so much fun.
We at the Yale Tango Club teach bootcamps designed to get our newbies into business ASAP. BTW we don't spend as much time on walking as we should int he very beginning, this is a trade-off as it puts ppl to sleep and you lose them before they can even do decent walking (if you can get them to stick around, they will be receptive and even demanding of walking technique after they have progressed a bit). Beginners want to do Stuff, so either you lose them to the other teacher who will teach back sacadas to your beginners, or you take up your responsibility and you teach them stuff that feels gratifying but is still easy to do and dance-floor friendly. Fortunately there is nobody in town here who teaches back sacadas.
Therefore.
In our bootcamp, class 1 is walking to the beat, the cross (4 counts of it, no backstep), a rockstep and pauses. Class 2 is back ochos and getting in or out incl to the cross. Class 3 is left half turns, two or them, (A) the QQS turn out of ochos into parallel, and (B) the rockstep turn out of parallel into ochos. We drill them to do A+B and B+A so they can do a full 360 turn and end up in the line of dance, whether they are doing ochos or walking in parallel. These are very easy turns and by teaching them early they become an essential part of the vocab. Class 4 is either Everythign All Over Again but Now in Close Embrace, or a class on Everything All Over Again but Now in vals and milonga, with musicality.
After the bootcamp all the classes are drop-in, and feature more left turns, several right turns, ocho cortado, slightly pivoting mini-leans, more rocksteps, double time steps, back-and-forth steps, more beginnings, pausing and ending moves, all that.
Our bootcamp is devoid of all the non-essential stuff to get started. Also we don't do anything that is challenging if done in close embrace or bad for floorcraft, or just hard or unpleasant to do. So these things we don't teach in the bootcamp or even EVER: front ochos, the sandwich (which is a musically and physically painful move even in the hands of non-beginners), sacadas on any front ochos, back sacadas, back steps in any way shape or form, calesitas (balance) and molinetes ending on a front ocho. There is nothing wrong with a molinete but when I learned it, I was not taught an effective way to get in or out of them. Feel free to blame my first teacher, but I like the left turns described above SO MUCH better.
BTW our community is very young but our style is traditional, mostly close embrace or working up to it.
Best
Tine
Sean Dockery <sean13@MYREALBOX.COM> wrote:
Hi All,
Just read through Tom's thoughts on teaching beginners (bellow), most of which I am in agreement with. However, in creating his order of teaching, Tom put turns last.
In our community (San Francisco) there are lots of teachers who produce lots of intermediate dancers, many of whom (quite unfortunately) teach beginners on the dance floor. For this reason, I like to teach beginners "servival molinetes". After all, nobody will do perfect molinete after their first class on the subject, so its good to get them started on a subject that they will probably spend years on. Also, if beginning followers can get around the "Intermediate" leaders in a crude sort of forward- side-back-side, they are less likely to get an earful of advice on "how to do a grapevine". In addition, if you teach leaders to lead the molinete well in the first place (without any complex patterns) this will avoid misconceptions later that leaders often get about the follower's role when they learn complex patterns (often taught with very little technique) The key is to teach the basic technique of the turn, and not show any "patterns" at all.
Sean
__________
People learn linear motions easiest, and circular motions much slower. This
makes sense if you consider how little we spiral and pivot in our normal,
walk-a-day world.
Nuevo Techniques (to me) involve a lot of pivoting and spiraling motions,
which are best introduced later on in the learning process. I prefer it to be
MUCH later on, after people have balance, lead-follow; after they already know
what tango looks and feels like; after they can pretty much ALREADY dance tango.
LINEAR BEFORE CIRCULAR
There are a lot of linear ideas for beginners: rhythms, lead-follow, musical
phrasing, connection, embrace, clean steps, heels down (straight legs). In
fact, a beginner guy can learn enough in one hour to walk a lovely beginner lady
around the room that same day. It is a whole lot easier to learn to TANGO (a
simple tango) than it is to learn the VOCABULARY OF TANGO.
NEGATIVE TECHNIQUE
I'm sure you have seen the poor beginner ladies being cranked off balance by
intermediates trying to thrash them through ochos. If they don't quit, they
are embodying bad habits which will take twice as long to remove. Some teachers
even show ochos in the first classes, before students can hear the beat,
before they can stand upright. And then those same bad Intermediates insist on
teaching the grapevine to every new lady that walks in the door.
A sensible learning methodology would ensure skills build in a logical
sequence:
(1) Stepping on the beat (walking), concepts of the social dance floor, and
Balance
(2) Hearing the musical phrase, initiating/receiving movement, lead-follow
and Balance
(3) Spiraling, no-pivot ochos (close-embrace) and Balance
(4) Spiraling while pivoting (turning ochos or open embrace ochos) and
Balance
(5) Turns still take a lot of practice, but... at least there is a technical
foundation for turns.
SLOWING DOWN THE LEARNING PROCESS
I think many teachers are excited about teaching cool moves, and fail to
provide a good foundation for LATER learning cool moves.
Teaching out of order doesn't speed up the learning process. To the contrary,
it slows people down because they pick up bad habits which take twice as long
to correct. At the worst end, you create a conception of tango as "A BUNCH of
COOL MOVES", rather than cool moves are "SIMPLY THINGS TO DO WHILE DANCING
TANGO".
I see a lot of intermediates with tons of vocabulary but ZERO musicality and
NEGATIVE technique. The poor women who crouch while walking backwards, or on
the other extreme look like they have a stick stuck where the sun doesn't
shine; the poor guys walking around with a hunch, or cranking with their arms.
These bad habits sometimes infect whole communities.... or if we are a little more
lucky, only the segment of the community tied to certain teachers.
Timmy here:
I enjoyed reading every word you wrote Tom.
It's extremely difficult to teach tango and keep students when there are
teachers who will teach what the student wants to learn, verus what the student
needs to learn.
Joanne and I both feel a person should learn the basics of tango first. To
learn the social dance first before going on to other areas of tango. Learn to
navigate around the dance floor before you learn to through a lady up in the
air, or kick between their legs. And how many ladies I see don't, and are not
taught, the importance of collecting their feet. They just want to learn
colgatas and leg raps instead.
I lost count on how many instructors I have had lessons with who constantly
tell us the walk is the whole dance, and how they spent years perfecting their
walk.
It's taken years to where I'm finally seeing the people in Cleveland really
dancing social tango well. Now with Neuvo being introduced, I'm sure the social
dance will lower in quality. I have talked with other cities where they
started out dancing Milonguero and when Neuvo started, the floor craft went down.
What I do see positive about Neuvo is that it is bringing young people into
tango. And I hear in Buenos Aires especially. But soon the kids see the
traditional tango and then are hooked on what I feel is the most romantic style of
tango to dance. For Joanne and I it's the contact we have when we dance that we
love.
For those who favor Neuvo, or Alturnitive, I have no problem with this. But I
do feel if you're going to hold a milonga keep it one or the other, not a
combination of the two.
I don't want to sit at a table waiting for a traditional tango, and I'm sure
the people who prefer alturnitive don't want to wait for something they would
want to dance to either.
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 13:35:27 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional (turns)
Your approach seems to be a conception of tango in which tango tango vocabulary. I prefer the idea of tango = tango dancing, and the
vocabulary is added slowly so people (especially the men) can keep
track of what they are learning.
There is nothing wrong with vocabulary.
It is just that we have a lot of people DOING tango who do not DANCE
tango.
Second, I still claim that introducing ochos so early when people
don't yet have balance doesn't correspond to the way skills come in
naturally: balnce, linear, spiral, pivot.
On Apr 9, 2006, at 1:09 PM, Yale Tango Club wrote:
> Hi all
> If you can't do turns, pausing is the only simple way to not
> crash into the couple ahead of you. I like pauses, of course, but
> turns are so much fun.
Of course, there are other very simple ways to keep from running into
someone, you can also do a rock-step, a together-step, a cross, a
side step, a pivot, pause on one foot.
More complicated ways include an ocho-cortado, a front-ocho, a
volcada, a single-axis turn, or a boleo.
> We at the Yale Tango Club teach bootcamps designed to get our
> newbies into business ASAP. BTW we don't spend as much time on
> walking as we should int he very beginning, this is a trade-off as
> it puts ppl to sleep and you lose them before they can even do
> decent walking (if you can get them to stick around, they will be
> receptive and even demanding of walking technique after they have
> progressed a bit). Beginners want to do Stuff, so either you lose
> them to the other teacher who will teach back sacadas to your
> beginners, or you take up your responsibility and you teach them
> stuff that feels gratifying but is still easy to do and dance-floor
> friendly. Fortunately there is nobody in town here who teaches back
> sacadas.
Endless walking around the room is boring. Maybe it trains people to
have balance, but it is like a run-on sentence with no commas no
periods no dynamics no interest and why do it anyway?
What about:
- Walk to the cross
- Walk to the together
- Rock-step with a QQS pattern
- Rock-step with a double QQS pattern
- Rock-step to a turn with QQS's
- Line of dance, asking a woman onto the floor, the embrace
Not boring walking. Never boring walking!
Those simple patterns can be combined into 8 or 16 different ways,
which teaches improvisation. And you can entertain people for a month
or two of classes.
The average brand-new beginner can do all of those things with a
partner. If the teacher ties these elements to the beat and to the
musical phrase, then the student is also learning musicality.
Intiating movement and slowing down to the together teaches Very few
beginners can't step on the beat first day;
Very few beginners can't walk on the 4-beat phrasing within the first
couple of weeks. When they move WITH the music, not with background
music, then the pieces feel right, and the men have more confidence.
> Therefore.
> In our bootcamp, class 1 is walking to the beat, the cross (4
> counts of it, no backstep), a rockstep and pauses. Class 2 is back
> ochos and getting in or out incl to the cross. Class 3 is left half
> turns, two or them, (A) the QQS turn out of ochos into parallel,
> and (B) the rockstep turn out of parallel into ochos. We drill them
> to do A+B and B+A so they can do a full 360 turn and end up in the
> line of dance, whether they are doing ochos or walking in parallel.
> These are very easy turns and by teaching them early they become an
> essential part of the vocab. Class 4 is either Everythign All Over
> Again but Now in Close Embrace, or a class on Everything All Over
> Again but Now in vals and milonga, with musicality.
Hmmm, ochos in class number two? Are these pivoting ochos or non-
pivoting ochos? How do the guys accomplish the cross-footed changes
on week two. Do the women have balance enough to pivot?
> ... BTW our community is very young but our style is traditional,
> mostly close embrace or working up to it.
> Best
> Tine
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 00:06:02 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional (turns)
Tom wrote...
It is just that we have a lot of people DOING tango who do not DANCE
tango.
--------------------
During Daniel Trenner's workshop here in Portland this last weekend, one of
his gems was, "Beware of people who tango, but don't dance."
J
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 02:36:22 +0200
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional (turns)
Hi Tine!
The first really interesting subject since quite a while on tango-l! :))
> trade-off as it puts ppl to sleep and you lose them before
> they can even do decent walking (if you can get them to stick
I also fight with the problem of a slow start-up in tango compared to other
ballroom dances (and salsa! Yuck!)...
> In our bootcamp, class 1 is walking to the beat, the cross
> (4 counts of it, no backstep), a rockstep and pauses. Class 2
> is back ochos and getting in or out incl to the cross. Class
> 3 is left half turns, two or them, (A) the QQS turn out of
> ochos into parallel, and (B) the rockstep turn out of
> parallel into ochos. We drill them to do A+B and B+A so they
> can do a full 360 turn and end up in the line of dance,
> whether they are doing ochos or walking in parallel. These
> are very easy turns and by teaching them early they become an
> essential part of the vocab. Class 4 is either Everythign All
> Over Again but Now in Close Embrace, or a class on Everything
> All Over Again but Now in vals and milonga, with musicality.
Now that's unusual. Maybe I am a guy (and was a dancer/teacher when started
tango back then), so I approach the problem a bit more differently.
[typical:]
Our class 1 is mainly just a few exercises giving an idea about follow-lead
(without physical connection first!), relative movement, exercises
acclimatizing the 'pupils' to the closeness of each other (ignoring the fear
of the other's closeness), exercises to 'hit' the beat with a step, some
simple walking w/o connection on the beat, stopping and walking.
Class 2 is mainly linear navigation (walks, minor changes of direction, side
steps), rythm use (simple, skip a beat) w/o connection, then with practice
hold (women only, symmetrical), then major changes of direction (90 degree:
man turns in spot w/o pivot of course, woman takes sidestep around guy),
rocksteps (also: introduction to double beat timing)
Class 3 is usually changes of direction w/ rocksteps, outside walks, cross
system walks (with double beat change of feet), cross (as in milonga)
rocksteps, regular open hold
Class 4 is leading to cross (without back or sidestep, using outside walks
only in 3 beats!), improvisation exercises using all elements from above,
intro to ocho cortado (in fixed set of steps)
Class 5 is improvisation exercises with ocho cortado (with a number of
combinations using different preceding steps), cross and others,
introduction to pivoting (technique) using exercises to spin foot (ankle
around ball of foot, instead of knees/hips etc.), separation of upper and
lower body, concept of upper and lower body muscles (95% of all related
problems stem from the wrong muscles used: when a civil is told to move
upper body (s)he will use even muscles on foot and ear to do so!) and actual
parts of body to be 'felt' moving, some exercises for sequence of
spiral-and-spin
Class 6 solo molinete exercise (fixed square: fw step, spin fw, spin bck,
bck step, side step, repeat) as introduction, then molinete on circle around
partner (on free path using the above exercise only as a 'guide'), changing
speed (size of steps) of molinete (lead by chest of man!), molinete w/
practice hold, stopping and reversing the molinete at any point,
improvisation w/ using molinete as a tool for massive changes of directions
Class 7 separating front and back ochos from the above exercise, explaining
difference of intentionally leading single front and back ochos/crosses
('use space'/'use axis' approach for differentiating between the two),
leading several consecutive crosses (ochos), reversing ocho directions,
deeper explanation of spiraling in ochos, the (apparent) delay between
lead/follow
Class 8 usually for additional practice of all above, extra improvisation
exercises etc.
[I hope I didn't omit anything]
From this point we usually start how to put together simple combinations
from these.
No close embrace until class knows how to use basic improvisation of
crosses, linear steps, giros, simple sacadas in open hold.
Classes are balanced so, that all (100%) students can actually learn to
reproduce all the tasks in the 60 mins.
> bootcamp or even EVER: front ochos, the sandwich (which is a
> musically and physically painful move even in the hands of
> non-beginners), sacadas on any front ochos, back sacadas,
> back steps in any way shape or form, calesitas (balance) and
> molinetes ending on a front ocho. There is nothing wrong with
Back sacadas are an obvious no-no for a beginner of course. However, many of
these are not really a problem for my beginners. The sandwich is not a major
problem, and front ochos definitely not (actually, they are a whole lot
easier than back ochos - I don't even understand the reason why you leave
them out) and music is really simple in tango (there are only 3
possibilities in general: - in 4/4 - using 1 and 3 (simple), using every
beat 1-2-3-4 (double beat) and skipping any number of beats (relative to
'simple' usually - but that's an affordable simplification I think)).
Of course, this is my 'full basic' solution, which is a trade-off between
being technical and too 'instant' (hasty), with giving variety and
interesting tasks for the students but also keeping in mind, that giving a
much too complicated task will make them frustrated (difference: close
embrace - by definition - makes 40-70% of the people really frustrated, even
just taking up the embrace!).
I would be interested in more "how to start" course-descriptions!
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:34:18 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Neuvo vs Traditional (turns)
Hi Aron
Thanks, I got back on the list a week or 2 ago but have been regretting it somewhat - it's the same old hogwash being recycled all over again. Evidently the list hasn't gotten anywhere new in the past half year. I'll probably not stay. Still, I'm here tonight.
We do 4 classes but they are 1.45h long so not very different from you..
I leave out the forwd ocho because it gets rarely used in close embrace - at least multiple ochos in a row. We are essentially a close embrace kinda place. We do some beginners classes in a kind of open assymmetrical practice hold and when they have some basics, we switch to close for all the interesting stuff. It would look really stupid if I were to teach them stuff that I would later have to explain, yes well, this move you worked so hard on, it doesn't work so well in close so please forget it now.
I leave out the sandwich not because it's too hard but because it's too easy. If a beginner knows only 3 moves and one is the sandwich, you can see they will do tons of sandwiches in every song and they will do it with really bad musicality. Also, you are a guy so I'm assuming you don't wear dainty shoes with open toes and open on the side, and so you don't imagine that sanwiches can be really painful especially if there are lots - some guys get very enthousiastic slamming their foot in, and sometimes you get skin pinched under the sole when the guy puts weight onto his foot. I've had nights where I wince every time I feel a sandwich coming and was close to tears by 11. I was wearing designer tango shoes. I don't want to train my leaders to do this.
I didn't mention the lead-follow technique in my list but of course it's central. Just today I taught a popular class in which I made all the girls lead and all the guys follow. We still had guys dancing with girls. This gave me instantly a lot of bad leaders and followers which was exacly what I wanted. I made the guy-followers do all the bad things that girl-followers do and which they don't like. E.g. walk on their heels, stick their behind out, lean upper boddy backward, pull the leader, veer off to the side, go on autopilot, land ahead of the leader, and be Not Really There. I made the girl- leaders do all the things that girls don't like, I made them manhandle and yank the guy-followers using their arms, lead like wimps, lean backward, walk like ducks, all that. We had a lot of laughs, nobody felt personally targeted (since they were supposed to do bad things), and many very good Aha-moments were reported. During the practica afterward I saw girls practicing with
girls and guys with guys and it was all very pleasant and relaxed.
Recently I taught another class I called Tangopolitan: What Guys Want and What Girls Want. I did it because not everybody is crazy enough to hang out on tango-L and find out what the partners want in writing. I let them do the talking and they brought up exactly the points that I expected. We then did exercises to work on those points.
Tine
Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
Hi Tine!
The first really interesting subject since quite a while on tango-l! :))
> trade-off as it puts ppl to sleep and you lose them before
> they can even do decent walking (if you can get them to stick
I also fight with the problem of a slow start-up in tango compared to other
ballroom dances (and salsa! Yuck!)...
> In our bootcamp, class 1 is walking to the beat, the cross
> (4 counts of it, no backstep), a rockstep and pauses. Class 2
> is back ochos and getting in or out incl to the cross. Class
> 3 is left half turns, two or them, (A) the QQS turn out of
> ochos into parallel, and (B) the rockstep turn out of
> parallel into ochos. We drill them to do A+B and B+A so they
> can do a full 360 turn and end up in the line of dance,
> whether they are doing ochos or walking in parallel. These
> are very easy turns and by teaching them early they become an
> essential part of the vocab. Class 4 is either Everythign All
> Over Again but Now in Close Embrace, or a class on Everything
> All Over Again but Now in vals and milonga, with musicality.
Now that's unusual. Maybe I am a guy (and was a dancer/teacher when started
tango back then), so I approach the problem a bit more differently.
[typical:]
Our class 1 is mainly just a few exercises giving an idea about follow-lead
(without physical connection first!), relative movement, exercises
acclimatizing the 'pupils' to the closeness of each other (ignoring the fear
of the other's closeness), exercises to 'hit' the beat with a step, some
simple walking w/o connection on the beat, stopping and walking.
Class 2 is mainly linear navigation (walks, minor changes of direction, side
steps), rythm use (simple, skip a beat) w/o connection, then with practice
hold (women only, symmetrical), then major changes of direction (90 degree:
man turns in spot w/o pivot of course, woman takes sidestep around guy),
rocksteps (also: introduction to double beat timing)
Class 3 is usually changes of direction w/ rocksteps, outside walks, cross
system walks (with double beat change of feet), cross (as in milonga)
rocksteps, regular open hold
Class 4 is leading to cross (without back or sidestep, using outside walks
only in 3 beats!), improvisation exercises using all elements from above,
intro to ocho cortado (in fixed set of steps)
Class 5 is improvisation exercises with ocho cortado (with a number of
combinations using different preceding steps), cross and others,
introduction to pivoting (technique) using exercises to spin foot (ankle
around ball of foot, instead of knees/hips etc.), separation of upper and
lower body, concept of upper and lower body muscles (95% of all related
problems stem from the wrong muscles used: when a civil is told to move
upper body (s)he will use even muscles on foot and ear to do so!) and actual
parts of body to be 'felt' moving, some exercises for sequence of
spiral-and-spin
Class 6 solo molinete exercise (fixed square: fw step, spin fw, spin bck,
bck step, side step, repeat) as introduction, then molinete on circle around
partner (on free path using the above exercise only as a 'guide'), changing
speed (size of steps) of molinete (lead by chest of man!), molinete w/
practice hold, stopping and reversing the molinete at any point,
improvisation w/ using molinete as a tool for massive changes of directions
Class 7 separating front and back ochos from the above exercise, explaining
difference of intentionally leading single front and back ochos/crosses
('use space'/'use axis' approach for differentiating between the two),
leading several consecutive crosses (ochos), reversing ocho directions,
deeper explanation of spiraling in ochos, the (apparent) delay between
lead/follow
Class 8 usually for additional practice of all above, extra improvisation
exercises etc.
[I hope I didn't omit anything]
From this point we usually start how to put together simple combinations
from these.
No close embrace until class knows how to use basic improvisation of
crosses, linear steps, giros, simple sacadas in open hold.
Classes are balanced so, that all (100%) students can actually learn to
reproduce all the tasks in the 60 mins.
> bootcamp or even EVER: front ochos, the sandwich (which is a
> musically and physically painful move even in the hands of
> non-beginners), sacadas on any front ochos, back sacadas,
> back steps in any way shape or form, calesitas (balance) and
> molinetes ending on a front ocho. There is nothing wrong with
Back sacadas are an obvious no-no for a beginner of course. However, many of
these are not really a problem for my beginners. The sandwich is not a major
problem, and front ochos definitely not (actually, they are a whole lot
easier than back ochos - I don't even understand the reason why you leave
them out) and music is really simple in tango (there are only 3
possibilities in general: - in 4/4 - using 1 and 3 (simple), using every
beat 1-2-3-4 (double beat) and skipping any number of beats (relative to
'simple' usually - but that's an affordable simplification I think)).
Of course, this is my 'full basic' solution, which is a trade-off between
being technical and too 'instant' (hasty), with giving variety and
interesting tasks for the students but also keeping in mind, that giving a
much too complicated task will make them frustrated (difference: close
embrace - by definition - makes 40-70% of the people really frustrated, even
just taking up the embrace!).
I would be interested in more "how to start" course-descriptions!
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Aron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
Az iWiW-en megtalalhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
