3765 New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:18:08 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Dear friends,
This is to let you know about a new book on tango, by Yale University Professor Robert Thompson (History of Art). Master T, as he is known to the students at the Timothy Dwight residential college where he has been Master since the '70s, has published countless scholarly articles and a number of books, and has written also in New York City's Village Voice. Master T hosts regular tango events with an intellectual twist (including live music, performances, presentations and milonga classes by Facundo and Kely Posadas) and for this reason (and many others) he's very popular with the Yale Tango Club people and everybody here on campus. He's also an entertaining and interesting character.
The book, Tango. The Art History of Love, will be released on September 20, 2005.
There is a link to the publisher and to the book on Amazon on my website here:
https://www.tangomuse.com/books.html
I haven't yet read yet it but I will as soon as I can get my hands on a copy, and I'll be sure to let you know. From what I hear it's well-researched and very interesting.
Have a nice day!
Tine
Yale Tango Club
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
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Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:23:06 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <grohens@UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Fantastic! I've been waiting for this book to come out. I attended a
Robert Ferris Thompson lecture/performance on African survivals in
tango music and dance two years ago, and his slideshow made
interesting use of 19th paintings of Argentine musicians and dancers
as documentation. Part of his thesis is that Argentine culture was
able to assimilate African art elements quite readily because Spanish
culture was already Africanized for centuries in music, architecture,
food and customs owing to Moorish influence.
RFT published an excerpt from the book in an issue of Aperture
magazine in 2002, I think.
joe
At 1:18 PM -0700 9/6/05, Yale Tango Club wrote:
>Dear friends,
>
>This is to let you know about a new book on tango, by Yale
>University Professor Robert Thompson (History of Art). Master T, as
>he is known to the students at the Timothy Dwight residential
>college where he has been Master since the '70s, has published
>countless scholarly articles and a number of books, and has written
>also in New York City's Village Voice. Master T hosts regular tango
>events with an intellectual twist (including live music,
>performances, presentations and milonga classes by Facundo and Kely
>Posadas) and for this reason (and many others) he's very popular
>with the Yale Tango Club people and everybody here on campus. He's
>also an entertaining and interesting character.
>
>The book, Tango. The Art History of Love, will be released on
>September 20, 2005.
>There is a link to the publisher and to the book on Amazon on my website here:
>https://www.tangomuse.com/books.html
>
>I haven't yet read yet it but I will as soon as I can get my hands
>on a copy, and I'll be sure to let you know. From what I hear it's
>well-researched and very interesting.
>
>Have a nice day!
>
>Tine
>Yale Tango Club
>
>
>************************
>Tango Club at Yale
>
>YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
>Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
>
>To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
>To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a hurry, do it
>yourself by sending an email to
>YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it doesn't work, just
>let us know. We're nice people and we really don't want to aggravate
>anybody. Thanks!
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:16:07 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
--- Joe Grohens <grohens@UIUC.EDU> escribis:
> RFT published an excerpt from the book in an issue
of > Aperture
> magazine in 2002, I think.
Aperture, a photographic arts magazine, published a
photo essay by Adriana Groisman, accompanied by text
by RFT. A nice picture here:
https://www.aperture.org/store/magazine-detail.aspx?ID70
> Part of his thesis is that Argentine culture was
> able to assimilate African art elements quite
readily > because Spanish
> culture was already Africanized for centuries in >
music, architecture,
> food and customs owing to Moorish influence.
Reading the text above, (and no first hand knowledge
of RFT works), it looks like an agenda based, and
biased, interpretation of history - RFT's, not Joe
G.'s. I think that I speak for the main consensus that
the Moorish conquest of Spain and its subsequent
cultural influence, originated in the countries of the
Maghreb - Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria. Those countries
have been conquered previously within the enormous
Arab/Moslem expansion begun at Mecca after 632 BC.
Culturally and societally, the Maghreb (like Egypt),
can hardly be considered "African" - which has a
connotation of "South of Sahara" - although situated
on that same continent. The assumption that Spain's
and by extension Latin American culture is
"Africanized" is then simply ridiculous, but
intentionally misleading.
Lucia
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:58:01 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Lucia wrote:
>The assumption that Spain's and by extension Latin American culture is
"Africanized" is then simply ridiculous, but intentionally misleading.<
My 2 cents:
Hmmm.....It could be possible since the trade of black slaves in Spain
started long before black slaves were brought to Latin America. Spain in a
sort of give and take took from black slaves living in Spain their music,
dance, vocabulary, etc. The Cuban island worked as middle ground between
Spain and Latin seaports. The Spanish bought black slaves from the
Portuguese, who in turned bought them from the Dutch.
In some Latin American countries the contribution of blacks to their culture
has remained silent because people who wrote history books were or are
prejudiced towards black culture.
Bruno
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:51:05 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love, con't
--- Bruno Romero <Euroking@AOL.COM> escribis:
> In some Latin American countries the contribution of
blacks to their culture
has remained silent because people who wrote history
books were or are
prejudiced towards black culture.<
On the other hand, the African influence in Argentine
Tango seems to have become an obsession with other
people, mainly North Americans, and for obvious
reasons.
These people seem to ignore that Tango is much more
than rhythm alone, as is in Carribean dance music, and
which is in any case universal in its many
manifestations.
These people seem to ignore the melody of the Tango,
with its great affinity to the Italian opera and
bel-canto.
But above all they seem to ignore the glory of Tango,
its lyrics, with its supremely beatiful sophisticated
poetry (or they have never been in love) which is pure
Argentina.
Tango melody, rhythm and lyrics sung by a great voice
transcend the issue of origins, and in a sense (oh
blasphemy) even the physical dance itself.
Lucia
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:58:13 -0700
From: Jennifer Rondeau <angelicatech@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
At the risk of starting to sound like one of the
list's pedants, this de-lurker feels compelled to
point out the following:
Bruno (presumably unintentionally) makes precisely
Lucia's point for her by still apparently failing to
appreciate the distinction she insists upon (and
claims the book fails to make) between the
predominantly Arab cultures of North Africa, which
indeed had a profound impact on Iberian culture from
at least the ninth century onward, and the "black" or
"African" cultures of sub-Saharan Africa, whose impact
was very different and came much much later.
In sum -- there's more than one Africa . . .
HTH,
Jennifer in Eugene
--- Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> wrote:
> Lucia wrote:
>
> >The assumption that Spain's and by extension Latin
> American culture is
> "Africanized" is then simply ridiculous, but
> intentionally misleading.<
>
> My 2 cents:
>
> Hmmm.....It could be possible since the trade of
> black slaves in Spain
> started long before black slaves were brought to
> Latin America. Spain in a
> sort of give and take took from black slaves living
> in Spain their music,
> dance, vocabulary, etc. The Cuban island worked as
> middle ground between
> Spain and Latin seaports. The Spanish bought black
> slaves from the
> Portuguese, who in turned bought them from the
> Dutch.
>
> In some Latin American countries the contribution of
> blacks to their culture
> has remained silent because people who wrote history
> books were or are
> prejudiced towards black culture.
>
> Bruno
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:34:06 -0700
From: jpsighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Thank you Bruno for your vigilance in bringing the truth to light. It is a
great torture to some out there to have to face the simple truth.
I do not know about this "Lucia" and quite frankly don't care to know about
him/her. The ridicule is on this somber character if the quote that I read
is his/hers.
The problem in this so-called modern times is that everybody writes a
book...including scoundrels who have NO moral integrity, nor the
intellectual honesty. To constantly suggest that Black people have not
fundamentally influenced any other culture they came in contact with, is so
illogical (I'm not even going to bother to add "unjust") and such an
incomplete thinking process that I don't know how one carries on after that
kind of idiocy (I have to call it what it is...sorry!) and still feels good
about themselves. What a twisted mental useless gymnastics!!!!!!!!
To the "Lucias" out there, whether you like it or not, it is a simple and
powerful truth that Black people have had and continue to have ( as I type)
a great influence on the cultures of the world. Just swallow it!!! Or go
jump into the river!!!!
Jean-Pierre Sighe
-----------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:58 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Lucia wrote:
>The assumption that Spain's and by extension Latin American culture is
"Africanized" is then simply ridiculous, but intentionally misleading.<
My 2 cents:
Hmmm.....It could be possible since the trade of black slaves in Spain
started long before black slaves were brought to Latin America. Spain in a
sort of give and take took from black slaves living in Spain their music,
dance, vocabulary, etc. The Cuban island worked as middle ground between
Spain and Latin seaports. The Spanish bought black slaves from the
Portuguese, who in turned bought them from the Dutch.
In some Latin American countries the contribution of blacks to their culture
has remained silent because people who wrote history books were or are
prejudiced towards black culture.
Bruno
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:15:08 -0700
From: Andrew Kaye <ethnomuse@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
It is comforting to see that Manuel's exhortation to tolerance and consideration in list discourse has lasted about two tandas.
Andrew Kaye
jpsighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM> wrote:
Just swallow it!!! Or go jump into the river!!!!
Jean-Pierre Sighe
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:28:24 -0700
From: jpsighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
You should understand that in my book, I tell it like it is! Ain’t got no
time for what French people call :”la gnognotte”!
Jean-Pierre S.
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kaye [mailto:ethnomuse@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 4:15 PM
To: jpsighe; TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
It is comforting to see that Manuel's exhortation to tolerance and
consideration in list discourse has lasted about two tandas.
Andrew Kaye
jpsighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM> wrote:
Just swallow it!!! Or go jump into the river!!!!
Jean-Pierre Sighe
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:17:42 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
quote Joe Grohens:
> Part of his thesis is that Argentine culture was
> able to assimilate African art elements quite
readily > because Spanish
> culture was already Africanized for centuries in >
music, architecture,
> food and customs owing to Moorish influence.
> Lucia wrote:
>
> >The assumption that Spain's and by extension Latin American culture is
> "Africanized" is then simply ridiculous, but intentionally misleading.<
>
Bruno Romero answered:
> My 2 cents:
>
> Hmmm.....It could be possible since the trade of black slaves in Spain
> started long before black slaves were brought to Latin America. Spain in a
> sort of give and take took from black slaves living in Spain their music,
> dance, vocabulary, etc.
The above is a perfect exemple of what often happens on tango-l....
In case anybody still remembers what we were talking about: does Argentine
culture have African elements ? Joe Grohens argues that yes, because Spain
was "africanised due to the influence of the Moors". Lucia is perfectly
right, when she points out that the Maghreb where the Moors came from can
hardly be considered African. North African, yes, if you consider the
location, but, in fact, it is an Arab culture. They speak Arabic, they are
Moslems, and the music and architecture that they brought to Spain has more
in common with Arab countries and Turkey (note the similarity between the
Alcazar in Sevilla and the Topcapi palace in Turkey) than with the rest of
Africa. Moreover, the Moors are actually white, more or less, and not black!
Many of them could easily pass for an Italian.
"Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves their music, dance,
vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.
In fact, Spain, in the "Golden Age", around 1200-1400 roughly, was taught by
an Arab musician, amongst others, who was at the court of the Kalif (!) in
Andalusia, how to play music and write poetry. This was the age where
Christians, Moslems and Jews lived peacefully together in the South of
Spain, and culturally a very fruitful time (check for "Sephardic music" if
you are interested, it is beautiful). That is why the singing of flamenco
sounds extraordinarily strange to the European ear, until you realise that
it is actually similar to Arabian singing.
Having said that, yes, I have also read the books that say, the tango was
influenced by black slaves who worked in the harbour of BsAs. But please,
let's not mix up the details into one big muddled picture, sort of like,
"what happened in Spain must be the same like what happened in America". No.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 04:57:55 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Thank you Bill for adding your opinion to our discussion of Black African
influence in the Spanish Culture and from there to that of the Spanish
colonies.
You say " From 8th through 15th Centuries, The black kingdoms of Ghana (not
to be confused with present day Ghana), Mali and Songhai, moved north, thus
intermingling the great cultures of the south with those of the North.
Influence
from all abounded. So I offer that there was a fair amount of Black African
influence a culture assimilated into the Moorish culture. Note it took over
500
years for the Islamization of that part of Africa."
The Arabs started to move creating a vast empire, right after the death of
Muhammad in the year 632.
They rapidly conquered an empire that extended from the Atlantic Ocean in
Western North Africa
(Morocco) to the boundaries with China in the East.
They had occupied all North Africa by the year 697 AD. and entered Spain in
the year 711.
The period that took from the time they left Arabia and Yemen till they
arrived in Spain was a short one. During their conquest of that area they
mostly encountered Egyptians, Ethiopians, Berbers. Not Black Africans. Even
during Roman times the great power of Northern Africa was Carthage. A city
founded by Phoenicians from Tyre (today's Lebanon).
If there was, as you say any Black "influence" that must have occurred after
the Moors entered Spain.
I have visited Spain about 20 times, and stayed there for about one month
each time. It is easy to see that the palaces, fortresses, mosques, baths,
patios, fountains, cities , geometrical decor and colorful tiles have a
typical arabic influence.
They look like the buildings you see in Egypt, Morocco or Istanbul. The
music and dances of Southern Spain remind us of those of the Arab countries
as well.
The Moors as intellectuals, administrators, philosophers, architects,
warriors, farmers, poets, writers, artists, religious, musicians,
astronomers, mathematicians ruled part Spain for more than seven centuries
and left an important heritage of their sophisticated civilization. The most
developed in the world at that time.
The predominant cultural influences in Spain are: Iberic, Celtic, Roman,
Gothic and Arabic.
There is no trace of any Black African influence that I could detect or that
I may have ever read about in Spain or in Spanish Culture.
The Pope had divided the world into two areas of influence: the East one for
Portugal and the West one for Spain. The last one had no access to African
slaves, the ones introduced in its colonies were traded by English and
Portuguese citizens.
Good night, Sergio
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 00:13:06 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <grohens@UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
At 12:17 PM +0900 9/8/05, astrid wrote:
>quote Joe Grohens:
>> Part of his thesis is that Argentine culture was
>> able to assimilate African art elements quite
>readily > because Spanish
>> culture was already Africanized for centuries in >
>music, architecture,
> > food and customs owing to Moorish influence.
>
I am beginning to be sorry that I paraphrased a point made in a
lecture I heard at least two years ago and which I have not read.
Robert Ferris Thompson's venerable career in art history (it seems to
me, from flipping through a bunch of his books) is largely built on
his study of motifs transferred from various African regions into New
World art. I can't vouch, really, for the rigor of his thinking in
his tango project until I read it, and it's quite possible I have
misrepresented and oversimplified what he said.
So.... I wonder if we could review the book when it comes out and
have our debate then. I wish now that I had not written my summary
above with such an authoritative tone.
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 01:06:18 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
The main pathway for African influences in Spanish culture was likely
black slaves imported Carribean and South America from the early 16th
century on. Certainly, by the early 19th century African culture had
been making its way to Spain and Portugal via that channel for a very
long time -- hundreds of years.
Spain had a toehold in Northern Africa up until the 60's, but as noted
earlier in the thread, Northern African and sub-Saharan cultures are
quite distinct, and we're looking for influences from the latter.
Spain also had a colony in Western Africa that later became Equatorial
Guinea. However, it didn't come under Spanish rule until after
Argentina had become independent.
I've come across a theory in my readings that French contradance was
adopted by black slaves in Martinique and then traveled to Cuba with
them, where it further evolved into a partner dance which traveled
back to Spain. Wikipedia makes mention of it, but I can't provide a
citation beyond that. We've also seen more substantive references
on Tango-L to African dancers and musicians in Buenos Aires before
the 1880's.
In any case, no one disputes that African influence on tango exists.
Exactly how it came to influence tango needs further investigation.
astrid wrote:
>quote Joe Grohens:
>
>>Part of his thesis is that Argentine culture was
>>able to assimilate African art elements quite
>>
>readily > because Spanish
>
>>culture was already Africanized for centuries in >
>>
>music, architecture,
>
>>food and customs owing to Moorish influence.
>>
>
>
>>Lucia wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The assumption that Spain's and by extension Latin American culture is
>>>
>>"Africanized" is then simply ridiculous, but intentionally misleading.<
>>
>Bruno Romero answered:
>
>>My 2 cents:
>>
>>Hmmm.....It could be possible since the trade of black slaves in Spain
>>started long before black slaves were brought to Latin America. Spain in a
>>sort of give and take took from black slaves living in Spain their music,
>>dance, vocabulary, etc.
>>
>
>The above is a perfect exemple of what often happens on tango-l....
>In case anybody still remembers what we were talking about: does Argentine
>culture have African elements ? Joe Grohens argues that yes, because Spain
>was "africanised due to the influence of the Moors". Lucia is perfectly
>right, when she points out that the Maghreb where the Moors came from can
>hardly be considered African. North African, yes, if you consider the
>location, but, in fact, it is an Arab culture. They speak Arabic, they are
>Moslems, and the music and architecture that they brought to Spain has more
>in common with Arab countries and Turkey (note the similarity between the
>Alcazar in Sevilla and the Topcapi palace in Turkey) than with the rest of
>Africa. Moreover, the Moors are actually white, more or less, and not black!
>Many of them could easily pass for an Italian.
>"Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves their music, dance,
>vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.
>In fact, Spain, in the "Golden Age", around 1200-1400 roughly, was taught by
>an Arab musician, amongst others, who was at the court of the Kalif (!) in
>Andalusia, how to play music and write poetry. This was the age where
>Christians, Moslems and Jews lived peacefully together in the South of
>Spain, and culturally a very fruitful time (check for "Sephardic music" if
>you are interested, it is beautiful). That is why the singing of flamenco
>sounds extraordinarily strange to the European ear, until you realise that
>it is actually similar to Arabian singing.
>Having said that, yes, I have also read the books that say, the tango was
>influenced by black slaves who worked in the harbour of BsAs. But please,
>let's not mix up the details into one big muddled picture, sort of like,
>"what happened in Spain must be the same like what happened in America". No.
>
>Astrid
>
>
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 00:31:21 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Astrid asks:
[...........
"Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves their music, dance,
vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.<
My 2 cents:
A quick reference on Afrikan contribution to music and dance in * Spanish *
is at:
https://presencias.net/indpdm.html?https://presencias.net/invest/ht3021a.html
My translation (part of the information):
Seville was the center of black trading in Spain, and not only the merchants
but the whole population had turned in a place of black traders (Aguirre
Beltran 1972).
....the issue of spanish influence looks to me more complicated than what I
have thought. In layman's terms it would be precise from the outset to
establish what the importance in Spain of black influence was. To what
degree has black influence participated in the formation of spanish dances,
and whether the results of the black influence took place in Spain or were
transplanted to America namely to Brasil by way of the Portuguese. It is
known that the most characteristic Spanish dance is the fandango 17th or
early 18th century.
Spain had received black slaves from the 15th century. Portugal and Brasil
were under Spain's rule. It is in the 17th century when the most
characteristic Spanish dances had not been yet born; instead black dances
were very popular according to people versed in the subject of Spanish
folklore. A case in point is the dance called *sarambaque* in Brasil, which
dates back to the 18th century. In Spain there was a very popular dance
called *zarambaque*, which dates back to the 17th century (Alvarenga 1947:
23).
In the same way there was an old Spanish dance dated from the 17th, 18th and
beginning of the 19th century called *zorongo* although it is not recognized
as Afrikan in Spain we suspect it is. In Brasil, el *sorongo* is considered
an Afrikan dance introduced by black slaves. In Colombia there is a colonial
dance by the same name, which increases our beliefs the *zorongo* in Spain
is an Afrikan dance (Perdomo Escobar 1963: 398). What makes possible that
the sorongo came from Spain to Brasil, Colombia, etc. is that a member of
the clergy Miguel de Sacramento Lopes Gama in Brasil(en El Carapuceiro del
20 de enero de 1838) mentions that along with the dances La Gavota,
Quadrille, and the *sorongo* are european. Also, this member of the clergy
mentions the *sorongo* and La Cachucha are the modern dances of the
time(Cămara Cascudo 1972: 815).
...............
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 03:03:23 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Sergio,
Again I am not disputing your facts, only would like to point out that the
Moors were influenced by slave trade and the interaction of the Berber elements
across the Sahara into Mauritania who then dealt the African Kingdoms and
Empires that grew from the caravan traffic from West Africa to Arabia. It was
these caravan routes and the north-south traffic. Black Africans were
transported to the Islamic empire across the Sahara to Morocco and Tunisia from West
Africa, from Chad to Libya, along the Nile from East Africa, and up the coast of
East Africa to the Persian Gulf. This trade had been well entrenched for over
600 years before Europeans arrived, and had driven the rapid expansion of
Islam across North Africa.
Likewise prior to the 16th century, most of slaves exported from Africa were
shipped from Zanzibar to Arabia "Arab slave traders differed from European
traders in that they would often capture slaves themselves, sometimes penetrating
deep into the continent. They also differed in that their market greatly
preferred the purchase of female slaves over male slaves."
All that I am saying that there was an influence. Did they leave a major mark
in Spain, I agree with you NO they did not, but I will still contend they did
have a least a minor influence in Moorish culture. Islam did rapidly conquer
the Maghreb but it was not until almost 1200 did the influence of the Islam
successfully move in to the northern sub-Saharan region. The Pope's division of
the world did not affect intra African slave trade, or slave trade to the
Middle East. Slaves were labor sources and were taken where they were needed.
The Atlantic Trade route undoubtedly produced much greater influence on the New
World culture than in Europe or the Middle East.
Regards,
Bill
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 03:38:00 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
One has to be careful when using the word "African" or "Afrikan." The
former refers to the black Africans and the latter to the Dutch who colonized South
Africa and called themselves Afrikans.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 9/7/2005 23:35:08 Pacific Daylight Time,
romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET writes:
Astrid asks:
[...........
"Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves their music, dance,
vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.<
My 2 cents:
A quick reference on Afrikan contribution to music and dance in * Spanish *
is at:
https://presencias.net/indpdm.html?https://presencias.net/invest/ht3021a.html
My translation (part of the information):
Seville was the center of black trading in Spain, and not only the merchants
but the whole population had turned in a place of black traders (Aguirre
Beltran 1972).
....the issue of spanish influence looks to me more complicated than what I
have thought. In layman's terms it would be precise from the outset to
establish what the importance in Spain of black influence was. To what
degree has black influence participated in the formation of spanish dances,
and whether the results of the black influence took place in Spain or were
transplanted to America namely to Brasil by way of the Portuguese. It is
known that the most characteristic Spanish dance is the fandango 17th or
early 18th century.
Spain had received black slaves from the 15th century. Portugal and Brasil
were under Spain's rule. It is in the 17th century when the most
characteristic Spanish dances had not been yet born; instead black dances
were very popular according to people versed in the subject of Spanish
folklore. A case in point is the dance called *sarambaque* in Brasil, which
dates back to the 18th century. In Spain there was a very popular dance
called *zarambaque*, which dates back to the 17th century (Alvarenga 1947:
23).
In the same way there was an old Spanish dance dated from the 17th, 18th and
beginning of the 19th century called *zorongo* although it is not recognized
as Afrikan in Spain we suspect it is. In Brasil, el *sorongo* is considered
an Afrikan dance introduced by black slaves. In Colombia there is a colonial
dance by the same name, which increases our beliefs the *zorongo* in Spain
is an Afrikan dance (Perdomo Escobar 1963: 398). What makes possible that
the sorongo came from Spain to Brasil, Colombia, etc. is that a member of
the clergy Miguel de Sacramento Lopes Gama in Brasil(en El Carapuceiro del
20 de enero de 1838) mentions that along with the dances La Gavota,
Quadrille, and the *sorongo* are european. Also, this member of the clergy
mentions the *sorongo* and La Cachucha are the modern dances of the
time(Cămara Cascudo 1972: 815).
...............
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 01:06:35 -0700
From: jpsighe <jpsighe@SIGHES.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Bruno,
To add to your reference, I would recommend that people do some research on
the work of Pr. Cheihk Anta Diop. For a long time his work was only
available in French. Now it's available at least in English.
So much ignorance has prevailed for too long about the African history. It
has been so, on purpose, no question about it. At this point in time, It
would almost take a Herculean courage for people like Astrid to dare to read
the truth revealed by Cheihk Anta Diop. I predict some difficult experience,
the one that is ALWAYS felt when the time comes to destroy the old erroneous
"information" of the past to replace it with the simple and unshakable
truth.
I wouldn't be surprised if the name Cheihk Anta Diop doesn't ring a bell at
all to these pseudo intellectuals we often read in this list. They lack the
basic curiosity and open mind that should be the motto of ANY decent human
being. Their quick selective reading clearly exposes their true self...
I said the ignorance about the African history was entertained on purpose,
thus clouding up anything Africans have ever contributed to in the making of
what the world is today. The simple look at the history of Argentina shows
it very easily. It is amusing to see that the necessary historical links to
understand the origins of Tango have mysteriously disappeared. It seems
easier to find the links that go back to the slave trade than it is to the
DIRECT influence of Black people in Tango! Very amusing!
The information is out there, thanks to some great historians with
integrity. Bruno has been good at providing this list with the valuable
resources in that regard. But one has to dig deep through the crap to
retrieve the info...WHY?????
At any rate, the truth is on the march. The new era of communication via the
Internet has widely opened the door to the Light that will undoubtedly
replace the clouds of ignorance in which so many Astrids and others have
been taking comfort for too long. I can hear the screams of pain already, as
the Light is pouring through.
Jean-Pierre Sighe
---
---
---------------------------
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:31 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Astrid asks:
[...........
"Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves their music, dance,
vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.<
My 2 cents:
A quick reference on Afrikan contribution to music and dance in * Spanish *
is at:
https://presencias.net/indpdm.html?https://presencias.net/invest/ht3021a.html
My translation (part of the information):
Seville was the center of black trading in Spain, and not only the merchants
but the whole population had turned in a place of black traders (Aguirre
Beltran 1972).
....the issue of spanish influence looks to me more complicated than what I
have thought. In layman's terms it would be precise from the outset to
establish what the importance in Spain of black influence was. To what
degree has black influence participated in the formation of spanish dances,
and whether the results of the black influence took place in Spain or were
transplanted to America namely to Brasil by way of the Portuguese. It is
known that the most characteristic Spanish dance is the fandango 17th or
early 18th century.
Spain had received black slaves from the 15th century. Portugal and Brasil
were under Spain's rule. It is in the 17th century when the most
characteristic Spanish dances had not been yet born; instead black dances
were very popular according to people versed in the subject of Spanish
folklore. A case in point is the dance called *sarambaque* in Brasil, which
dates back to the 18th century. In Spain there was a very popular dance
called *zarambaque*, which dates back to the 17th century (Alvarenga 1947:
23).
In the same way there was an old Spanish dance dated from the 17th, 18th and
beginning of the 19th century called *zorongo* although it is not recognized
as Afrikan in Spain we suspect it is. In Brasil, el *sorongo* is considered
an Afrikan dance introduced by black slaves. In Colombia there is a colonial
dance by the same name, which increases our beliefs the *zorongo* in Spain
is an Afrikan dance (Perdomo Escobar 1963: 398). What makes possible that
the sorongo came from Spain to Brasil, Colombia, etc. is that a member of
the clergy Miguel de Sacramento Lopes Gama in Brasil(en El Carapuceiro del
20 de enero de 1838) mentions that along with the dances La Gavota,
Quadrille, and the *sorongo* are european. Also, this member of the clergy
mentions the *sorongo* and La Cachucha are the modern dances of the
time(Cămara Cascudo 1972: 815).
...............
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:44:09 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Richard wrote:
>One has to be careful when using the word "African" or "Afrikan." The
former refers to the black Africans and the latter to the Dutch who
colonized South Africa and called themselves Afrikans.<
Dear all,
I must have picked Afrika with "k" from the information I have read sometime
ago. I checked the internet and dictionary at hand and came up with the
following.
From the Kongo-English Dictionary: Afrika (West Africa, Kongo) - Africa
(English).
From the Collins Cobuild English Language Dictionary: Afrikaner (Dutch
descent living in South Africa)
Bruno
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:34:37 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love (READ FIRST BEFORE CONTINUING THE THREAD)
Pre-emptive request to all Listeros:
Don't feed the trolls!
Please, everyone keep on maintaining your cool and do not react PUBLICLY to
letters with personal attacks, suggestive provocation and other not really
civilised form of correspondence in it. Tango-L will be a much better place
to be without the open mudslinging.
If you need to express your discontent, please write directly to the person.
Thank you!
Best wishes,
Aron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of jpsighe
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:07 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
>
> Bruno,
>
> To add to your reference, I would recommend that people do
> some research on the work of Pr. Cheihk Anta Diop. For a
> long time his work was only available in French. Now it's
> available at least in English.
> So much ignorance has prevailed for too long about the
> African history. It has been so, on purpose, no question
> about it. At this point in time, It would almost take a
> Herculean courage for people like Astrid to dare to read the
> truth revealed by Cheihk Anta Diop. I predict some difficult
> experience, the one that is ALWAYS felt when the time comes
> to destroy the old erroneous "information" of the past to
> replace it with the simple and unshakable truth.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if the name Cheihk Anta Diop doesn't
> ring a bell at all to these pseudo intellectuals we often
> read in this list. They lack the basic curiosity and open
> mind that should be the motto of ANY decent human being.
> Their quick selective reading clearly exposes their true self...
>
> I said the ignorance about the African history was
> entertained on purpose, thus clouding up anything Africans
> have ever contributed to in the making of what the world is
> today. The simple look at the history of Argentina shows it
> very easily. It is amusing to see that the necessary
> historical links to understand the origins of Tango have
> mysteriously disappeared. It seems easier to find the links
> that go back to the slave trade than it is to the DIRECT
> influence of Black people in Tango! Very amusing!
> The information is out there, thanks to some great historians
> with integrity. Bruno has been good at providing this list
> with the valuable resources in that regard. But one has to
> dig deep through the crap to retrieve the info...WHY?????
>
> At any rate, the truth is on the march. The new era of
> communication via the Internet has widely opened the door to
> the Light that will undoubtedly replace the clouds of
> ignorance in which so many Astrids and others have been
> taking comfort for too long. I can hear the screams of pain
> already, as the Light is pouring through.
>
> Jean-Pierre Sighe
>
> --------------
> --------------
> ---------------------------
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Bruno Romero
> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:31 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
>
> Astrid asks:
> [...........
> "Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves
> their music, dance, vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.<
>
> My 2 cents:
>
> A quick reference on Afrikan contribution to music and dance
> in * Spanish * is at:
> https://presencias.net/indpdm.html?https://presencias.net/invest
> /ht3021a.html
>
> My translation (part of the information):
>
> Seville was the center of black trading in Spain, and not
> only the merchants but the whole population had turned in a
> place of black traders (Aguirre Beltran 1972).
>
> ....the issue of spanish influence looks to me more
> complicated than what I have thought. In layman's terms it
> would be precise from the outset to establish what the
> importance in Spain of black influence was. To what degree
> has black influence participated in the formation of spanish
> dances, and whether the results of the black influence took
> place in Spain or were transplanted to America namely to
> Brasil by way of the Portuguese. It is known that the most
> characteristic Spanish dance is the fandango 17th or early
> 18th century.
>
> Spain had received black slaves from the 15th century.
> Portugal and Brasil were under Spain's rule. It is in the
> 17th century when the most characteristic Spanish dances had
> not been yet born; instead black dances were very popular
> according to people versed in the subject of Spanish
> folklore. A case in point is the dance called *sarambaque* in
> Brasil, which dates back to the 18th century. In Spain there
> was a very popular dance called *zarambaque*, which dates
> back to the 17th century (Alvarenga 1947:
> 23).
>
> In the same way there was an old Spanish dance dated from the
> 17th, 18th and beginning of the 19th century called *zorongo*
> although it is not recognized as Afrikan in Spain we suspect
> it is. In Brasil, el *sorongo* is considered an Afrikan dance
> introduced by black slaves. In Colombia there is a colonial
> dance by the same name, which increases our beliefs the
> *zorongo* in Spain is an Afrikan dance (Perdomo Escobar 1963:
> 398). What makes possible that the sorongo came from Spain to
> Brasil, Colombia, etc. is that a member of the clergy Miguel
> de Sacramento Lopes Gama in Brasil(en El Carapuceiro del 20
> de enero de 1838) mentions that along with the dances La
> Gavota, Quadrille, and the *sorongo* are european. Also, this
> member of the clergy mentions the *sorongo* and La Cachucha
> are the modern dances of the time(Cămara Cascudo 1972: 815).
>
> ...............
>
> Regards,
>
> Bruno
>
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:19:25 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Actually, I also committed a typo. The Dutch South Africans called
themselves Afrikaaners and their language is Afrikaans, a dialect of
Dutch.
A famous example of an Afrikaaner is the actress Charlize Theron.
El Bandito de Tango
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 03:38:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
One has to be careful when using the word "African" or "Afrikan."
The
former refers to the black Africans and the latter to the Dutch who
colonized
South
Africa and called themselves Afrikans.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 9/7/2005 23:35:08 Pacific Daylight Time,
romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET writes:
Astrid asks:
[...........
"Spain in a sort of give and take took from black Slaves their music,
dance,
vocabulary..." Show me where, Bruno.<
My 2 cents:
A quick reference on Afrikan contribution to music and dance in *
Spanish *
is at:
https://presencias.net/indpdm.html?https://presencias.net/invest/ht3021a.ht
ml
My translation (part of the information):
Seville was the center of black trading in Spain, and not only the
merchants
but the whole population had turned in a place of black traders (Aguirre
Beltran 1972).
....the issue of spanish influence looks to me more complicated than
what I
have thought. In layman's terms it would be precise from the outset to
establish what the importance in Spain of black influence was. To what
degree has black influence participated in the formation of spanish
dances,
and whether the results of the black influence took place in Spain or
were
transplanted to America namely to Brasil by way of the Portuguese. It is
known that the most characteristic Spanish dance is the fandango 17th or
early 18th century.
Spain had received black slaves from the 15th century. Portugal and
Brasil
were under Spain's rule. It is in the 17th century when the most
characteristic Spanish dances had not been yet born; instead black
dances
were very popular according to people versed in the subject of Spanish
folklore. A case in point is the dance called *sarambaque* in Brasil,
which
dates back to the 18th century. In Spain there was a very popular dance
called *zarambaque*, which dates back to the 17th century (Alvarenga
1947:
23).
In the same way there was an old Spanish dance dated from the 17th,
18th and
beginning of the 19th century called *zorongo* although it is not
recognized
as Afrikan in Spain we suspect it is. In Brasil, el *sorongo* is
considered
an Afrikan dance introduced by black slaves. In Colombia there is a
colonial
dance by the same name, which increases our beliefs the *zorongo* in
Spain
is an Afrikan dance (Perdomo Escobar 1963: 398). What makes possible
that
the sorongo came from Spain to Brasil, Colombia, etc. is that a member
of
the clergy Miguel de Sacramento Lopes Gama in Brasil(en El Carapuceiro
del
20 de enero de 1838) mentions that along with the dances La Gavota,
Quadrille, and the *sorongo* are european. Also, this member of the
clergy
mentions the *sorongo* and La Cachucha are the modern dances of the
time(Cămara Cascudo 1972: 815).
...............
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:05:20 -0700
From: "Linda~" <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Since we're correcting... :-P
Contrary to what's been said, Ethiopia is part of
sub-Saharan Africa and is NOT an Arab country.
Even the language is different (Amharic). I've
yet to meet an Ethiopian who said s/he was not
sub-Saharan.
I'm amused at all the hand-wringing for a book
that's not even out yet, but also baffled and a
bit saddened by all of the agonizing over who
contributed what to tango and how much. In the
end, does it really matter? I mean, Lucia's
completely right about the Italian/Spanish (and
German) influence on tango--that much is common
knowledge to most dancers. And of course we have
to consider the influence of black African
culture as well. But what about the Yiddish
influence? What about Turkey? What about Japan?
I guess my point is, Argentine tango is still
fundamentally Argentine, and will always be--and
for that I'm glad. At the same time, I see no
reason why we can't appreciate ALL of the
different influences, large and small, which have
enriched Argentine tango, instead of bickering
over who made the biggest contribution.
I look forward to the arrival of RFT's book.
I've found him to be an entertaining lecturer.
Yes, some of his ideas can be a stretch, but for
the most part his research on tango is admirably
thorough.
Cheers,
Linda
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:54:31 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: New book: Tango, The Art History of Love
Sergio,
Nice summary of the history.
However, you use the word "they" even though the followers
of Muhammad were not united. I understand why, since your
focus was more general. The interesting thing to me is
that it was actually this disunity which contributed to the
subsequent Moorish history in Spain.
The Abbasids deposed the Umayyads in 750, in Damascus,
and set about killing members of the Umayyad family.
One Umayyad, Abd ar-Rahman I, escaped the assassinations,
successfully crossed Africa, took over control of Muslim
forces already in Spain, and established the Umayyad dynasty
which ruled Spain for several centuries.
His story could make quite the Hollywood movie!
Isn't history interesting?!
Dave de Denver
PS: Mandatory tango connection: Were it not for the Moors
in Spain, history would have been different. Columbus would
not have been financed by Ferdinand & Isabela, whose fiscal
burden was relieved by the exit of the last Moorish ruler
of Granada in January of 1492. Hence the "New World"
would have been discovered and settled differently, and
the port cities in which tango was created would have
instead been settled by the descendants of the Visigoths
or the Basques or the Vikings.
Or, invent your own butterfly-effect.
> From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
> The Arabs started to move creating a vast empire, right after the death of
> Muhammad in the year 632.
>
> They rapidly conquered an empire that extended from the Atlantic Ocean in
> Western North Africa
> (Morocco) to the boundaries with China in the East.
>
> They had occupied all North Africa by the year 697 AD. and entered Spain in
> the year 711.
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:39:34 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango, the Art History of Love
Hey everybody,
So you've heard about this new book by Robert Farris Thompson, Tango, the Art History of Love.
Multiple people have posted on it including myself, and there is a cover picture and some critic blurbs on this webpage:
https://www.tangomuse.com/books.html
There was a lot of (pre-publication) heated debate on Thompson's angle, the contribution of African-Argentine musicians and dancers to the development of tango. And yes, he does talk about that, and it is very interesting.
The reason I'm writing, though, is there is so much more than that. I was at home with a cold and found some time to start reading it, and I've been having an absolute blast with it. It is so very entertaining. The man writes with so much aplomb, it's a hoot. Gee I wish everything scholarly I read for information was this amusing. The words are handpicked to delight and enlighten. The shreds of song lyrics translations are fabulous. The tidbits are delicious. Did you know the milonga "el esquinazo" is about being stood up by a girl you were meeting on a street corner (esquina). And if you have seen dancers bang their heels to the beat during this milonga, well 4 generations ago they had to prohibit this because it got totally out of hand, the people were banging on walls floors and furniture with everything they could find, and tore the place to pieces.
About the contribution of African-Argentine musicians and dancers to the development of tango, well his research is very solid and the data very plausible, which is more than can be said of whatever is underlying the arguments of some of the contributors to this forum. Nevertheless if you don't want to believe it you don't have to, and this book won't make you believe it if you are not so inclined. So you can pick it up, read it and have a good time, and not worry about having to change your mind. The book is such a fun read, it would be a shame not to read it.
By the way if English is not your language (it's not mine either), you don't have to worry about scholarly writing style. The sentences are short, easy, clear, and the words are vivid and full of meaning.
Enjoy.
Tine
PS: the author is a professor here at Yale, I know him and he's a nice guy, but I have no financial or other interest in his book sales. Just so you know.
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
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