Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 03:53:48 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
I too have met Nito and Elba and agree that they are incredibly sweet and gracious people.
The fact that anyone slanders any of the master teachers on this list shows ignorance to the "art of tango" - period. First of all, everybody is going to dance their own style. And I'm not just categorizing between Milonguero, Salon, Nuevo, etc... etc... etc... Every person has their own personal style of dancing. Well, I take that back...some people never develop a style of their own because they are too busy mimicking someone else, but they still something that makes the tango their way of dancing it. Any art form is objective... you may not like their particular style, but it doesn't make it bad. Technique can be bad, but is also still objective, Leads and follows can be bad, but again, still can be slightly objective.... but style is just about personal taste.
Second of all, most of these master teachers (I'm not saying all since I surely don't know them all), have by far earned the respect somehow or another as a teacher, dancer, or performer. Not all of them do each of these things well, but all of them has at least done one of them well to earn their position. We should each respect the fact that they've worked hard to have earned their position.
Most of the people on this list have nowhere near the experience with tango as Nito and Elba, or Susanna Miller, or any of the other well-known master teacher, dancer or performer. So we have no right to make any type of slander, other than maybe...I'm not that wild about their style... or... It's just not the style I like. They've put in their time, their training, and their effort to be where they are today. Respect them for that.
As for being "Closet Ballroom Dancers" - well it might not be the most demeaning insult someone could make, but it does show Oleh's ignorance to the dance and style
Lastly, about style... I've partnered with 5 different professional tango dancers in the past 4 1/2 years that I've danced it. Each one of them has had their own personal style that I've had to adjust to (something I feel is a role of the female/follower). Each of them danced technically salon style, but still completely uniquely different in form, style, technique, and musicality. Can I judge which one was best?? No. In that since, they were all equal... but different.
Quit trying to judge others dancing and concentrate on making your own better... Advice I think all dancers should take, but especially many of the people on this list.
Nicole
Miami
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 04:54:57 EDT
From: FRSASSON@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
Hey Nicole:
Knowing the magnificent dancer you are, which you have learned through your
many years of dancing and teaching, and how good a teacher you are, because of
all that I have seen of what you have been able to accomplish with adults,
but more importantly, with children, (as difficult as that can be), I applaud
and agree wholeheartedly with your comments about Nito and Elba.
Many people know that Nito and Elba are teachers of teachers...Ask many of
today's professional tango dancers, who they took classes from, when they were
first starting, and the names of Nito and Elba always show up. Fernanda Ghi
took classes with them, Guillermo Merlo mentioned that a few of his
magnificent twirling techniques were learned from Nito. I know this because in the
first trip in which Fernanda and Guillermo took students to Buenos Aires, I was
the interpreter for the talks that the professional teachers gave after the
classes.
Most of the slanderous comments I have read in this forum, are from people
who have absolutely no idea what these incredibly great teachers had to go
through when they started their careers; how hard it was 50 or 60 years ago to
teach a dance that had been totally forbidden in Buenos Aires during the Peron
era, and then to persevere and succeed in teaching youngsters to become
professional dancers and teachers, and still, 50 or 60 years later, be able to
not only teach, but to perform as they do.
Some of us have been incredibly lucky to have been able to take lessons from
them....How I only wish I could twirl like Nito, how many ladies can only
dream of doing a back ocho as graciously and as fluid as the one Elba does,
where the leader barely notices the movement.
Who among us that were there, can forget Nito's makeup as a compadrito the
last night of Nora's Tango week in San Francisco.
I can go on and on..........................
If there was a Hall of Fame for tangueros, Nito and Elba would definitely
belong there.
Frank Sasson
Miami, Florida
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:31:19 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
I am not to argue with your opinion. However:
> their careers; how hard it was 50 or 60 years ago to teach a
> dance that had been totally forbidden in Buenos Aires during
> the Peron era, and then to persevere and succeed in teaching
Peron was a great fan of tango and during his rule could tango enjoy a
golden age. Probably without his rule tango would have went out of fashion
much sooner, would have reached a much smaller group of people with much
less impact and therefore never could have become the kind of 'national
dance' as now Argentines think of it.
Quote from todotango.com:
"But is 1955 the coup that ousted Perón brought a very different political
climate, which was to hit the Tango hard. The nationalistic Peronist
government had encouraged Argentine music, for example by putting quotas on
the amount of foreign music allowed to be played on the radio. The new
regime, instantly suspicious of anything that was determinedly Argentine,
because it implied nationalism and therefore Perón, discouraged Tango, and
encouraged the importation of music from abroad, bringing Rock and Roll and
the new world youth culture to the young of Buenos Aires. Also, bans on
meetings of more than three people, for fear of political agitation, made
public dances dificult, and the dancing went underground. Tango moved in a
few years from a mass movement involving a huge proportion of the population
of Buenos Aires, to a persecuted fringe activity, with many great artists
being blacklisted or imprisoned for their Peronist connections."
As for the debate over negative comments on Nito y Elba: slander means
stating something factually false about someone.
There were no comments about their roles as dancers or teachers, there were
no comments about their personalities. The only comment was on their dancing
(performing) style, which _one_ person considered a bit dusty. Everything
else was really directed to people publishing awestruck posts that are
obviously not balanced. Since then, there were over a dozen letters written
out of hurt feelings, which contained very little new information, but
staged the entire case as there was somekind of huge crime done against Nito
y Elba.
Inquisition and witchhunts are quite medieval, even though it seems to be
very popular on this list and in world politics as well...
I am not religious. I always considered teachers what they are: service
providers. They teach me things I want to know and I pay them for it. If I
have a good personal relationship with them that is all the better. But I
never tend to mix up the two. I have good relationships with teachers I
don't consider so good, and I have no relationship with teachers I've learnt
from and consider brilliant. Also, I do believe that you can learn from
practically anyone: even your peers or dancers who - in general - are less
adept than yourself.
Aron
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 06:18:08 -0400
From: "Andrew L. Kaye" <ethnomuse@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
Hi Aron,
>As for the debate over negative comments on Nito y Elba: slander means
>stating something factually false about someone. There were no comments
>about their roles as dancers or teachers, there were no comments about
>their personalities. The only comment was on their dancing (performing)
>style, which _one_ person considered a bit dusty.
A number of us felt that the ill-spiritedness of the comment was uncalled
for, that's all.
>Everything else was really directed to people publishing awestruck posts
>that are obviously not balanced.
Are you looking for balance? You will find that on the dance floor, not on
Tango-L.
>Since then, there were over a dozen letters written out of hurt feelings...
Speak for yourself. This is a just a way of demeaning the opinions of those
you disagree with ("out of hurt feelings"). Personally, my feelings were
never "hurt". Neither are they by your comments, which in my opinion are
misdirected. As I find dispirited debates enlivening, I don't mind feeding
this particular troll.
> which contained very little new information,
Hey, Aron, you seem like a nice fellow, but your posts are also not always
full of new information nor insight; copying and pasting a long paragraph on
Peron from the totango website by definition would not qualify as "new
information" (not to mention relevance).
>Inquisition and witchhunts are quite medieval...
Hey, take a breather, gain some perspective. When someone wrote that Nito
and Elba were "closet ballroom dancers" in the context of the tango
community that was no small slur. I'm sure that Nito and Elba would laugh
this off, and from that perspective, you are right, this was no big deal.
But people on this list have a right to call people to task for what they
say. And if nothing deserves respect, and anything can be said, well...it
seems to me that is a condition far from tango.
>I am not religious. I always considered teachers what they are: service
>providers.
This has nothing to do with religion. And "service providers"? They are
found in...what section of town is it? On Scalabrini Ortiz late at night,
you can find service providers of a very particular type. But teachers of
high art? Service providers? :)
Andrew Kaye
https://ethnomuse.blogspot.com
They teach me things I want to know and I pay them for it. If I
have a good personal relationship with them that is all the better. But I
never tend to mix up the two. I have good relationships with teachers I
don't consider so good, and I have no relationship with teachers I've learnt
from and consider brilliant. Also, I do believe that you can learn from
practically anyone: even your peers or dancers who - in general - are less
adept than yourself.
Aron
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:07:08 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
> A number of us felt that the ill-spiritedness of the comment
> was uncalled for, that's all.
You see: this is more to the point and that's quite understandable. However,
most comments were more aggressive than this one.
> >Everything else was really directed to people publishing awestruck
> >posts that are obviously not balanced.
>
> Are you looking for balance? You will find that on the dance
> floor, not on Tango-L.
If there is no balance, there will be no peace. If there is no peace, then
most of what we write is in vain, because quite a lot of people won't
listen. That includes what you have to say, and what I have to say as well.
> >Since then, there were over a dozen letters written out of
> hurt feelings...
>
> Speak for yourself. This is a just a way of demeaning the
> opinions of those you disagree with ("out of hurt feelings").
> Personally, my feelings were never "hurt". Neither are they
> by your comments, which in my opinion are misdirected. As I
> find dispirited debates enlivening, I don't mind feeding this
> particular troll.
OK. I might be using the wrong words to express myself. You see: English is
not my native language. I spent only 4 days in an English speaking country
in my life. What I meant, that those letters mostly emphasized how they
percieved Nito and Elba as persons, their kindness and the fact that they
considered it so rude to say anything negative about them. This is an
emotional response and a negative one (to you) - I think this is something
we can agree upon. This is also a response that you all reacted to. If this
can or cannot be called "hurt" depends on how you classify negative
emotions.
If debates are mainly based on emotions, then they are rarely fruitful. The
only information you get that there you have a subject which divides people
severely. Do you think this is a good thing?
> > which contained very little new information,
>
> Hey, Aron, you seem like a nice fellow, but your posts are
> also not always full of new information nor insight; copying
Hmmm. You mean that I am just saying the very same things what everyone else
before me did?
> and pasting a long paragraph on Peron from the totango
> website by definition would not qualify as "new information"
> (not to mention relevance).
Well, considering that Frank made a comment that was factually erroneous in
his post, maybe we are in disagreement on this one. I was _mainly_ reacting
to that comment. If you believe that it is irrelevant (not about tango),
then I might be wrong about the purpose of this list.
> >Inquisition and witchhunts are quite medieval...
>
> Hey, take a breather, gain some perspective. When someone
> wrote that Nito and Elba were "closet ballroom dancers" in
> the context of the tango community that was no small slur.
> I'm sure that Nito and Elba would laugh this off, and from
> that perspective, you are right, this was no big deal.
> But people on this list have a right to call people to task
> for what they say. And if nothing deserves respect, and
> anything can be said, well...it seems to me that is a
> condition far from tango.
Anything? No. But respect is a very subjective term and a very personal one
as well. I don't want to bring up controversial examples that achievement
and errors (or crime) usually go hand-in-hand. No people are flawless.
Naturally, a balanced (again) post will help people understand that you are
not trying to be disrespectful, you simply just talking about the flaws as
well. And maybe those flaws are not flaws in everyone's eyes.
> >I am not religious. I always considered teachers what they
> are: service
> >providers.
>
> This has nothing to do with religion. And "service
> providers"? They are found in...what section of town is it?
> On Scalabrini Ortiz late at night, you can find service
> providers of a very particular type. But teachers of high
> art? Service providers? :)
That was (intentionally) rude, Andrew. I am a professional dancer I've
worked with quite a few 'teachers of high art'(not just tango - actually
most 'dance artist' consider couple dancing just cheap wriggling and not
art...). They are people. They are trying to earn their living. They SELL
art to you and others. Stardom and artistry is traditionally linked: dance
teachers call themselves artists and ask for honoraria rather than to call
themselves vocational teachers with a fee. Since most people have a inner
need for idols or stars that are untouchable, this system works fine for
masters of almost any genre. Obviously, this does not reduce their
achievements as teachers or dancers (if they are good). However, a good
teacher or a good dancer is not a deity. The relationship is still based on
knowledge or entertainment for money.
Aron
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:29:30 -0400
From: "Andrew L. Kaye" <ethnomuse@RCN.COM>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
I tried to dance a light dainty milonga, and I'm being treated to a nuevo
tango to the nth degree, with giros, sacadas, boleos, the works. Vey!
;-)
Andy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Nito and Elba and slander
>> A number of us felt that the ill-spiritedness of the comment
>> was uncalled for, that's all.
>
> You see: this is more to the point and that's quite understandable.
> However,
> most comments were more aggressive than this one.
>
>> >Everything else was really directed to people publishing awestruck
>> >posts that are obviously not balanced.
>>
>> Are you looking for balance? You will find that on the dance
>> floor, not on Tango-L.
>
> If there is no balance, there will be no peace. If there is no peace, then
> most of what we write is in vain, because quite a lot of people won't
> listen. That includes what you have to say, and what I have to say as
> well.
>
>> >Since then, there were over a dozen letters written out of
>> hurt feelings...
>>
>> Speak for yourself. This is a just a way of demeaning the
>> opinions of those you disagree with ("out of hurt feelings").
>> Personally, my feelings were never "hurt". Neither are they
>> by your comments, which in my opinion are misdirected. As I
>> find dispirited debates enlivening, I don't mind feeding this
>> particular troll.
>
> OK. I might be using the wrong words to express myself. You see: English
> is
> not my native language. I spent only 4 days in an English speaking country
> in my life. What I meant, that those letters mostly emphasized how they
> percieved Nito and Elba as persons, their kindness and the fact that they
> considered it so rude to say anything negative about them. This is an
> emotional response and a negative one (to you) - I think this is something
> we can agree upon. This is also a response that you all reacted to. If
> this
> can or cannot be called "hurt" depends on how you classify negative
> emotions.
>
> If debates are mainly based on emotions, then they are rarely fruitful.
> The
> only information you get that there you have a subject which divides
> people
> severely. Do you think this is a good thing?
>
>> > which contained very little new information,
>>
>> Hey, Aron, you seem like a nice fellow, but your posts are
>> also not always full of new information nor insight; copying
>
> Hmmm. You mean that I am just saying the very same things what everyone
> else
> before me did?
>
>> and pasting a long paragraph on Peron from the totango
>> website by definition would not qualify as "new information"
>> (not to mention relevance).
>
> Well, considering that Frank made a comment that was factually erroneous
> in
> his post, maybe we are in disagreement on this one. I was _mainly_
> reacting
> to that comment. If you believe that it is irrelevant (not about tango),
> then I might be wrong about the purpose of this list.
>
>> >Inquisition and witchhunts are quite medieval...
>>
>> Hey, take a breather, gain some perspective. When someone
>> wrote that Nito and Elba were "closet ballroom dancers" in
>> the context of the tango community that was no small slur.
>> I'm sure that Nito and Elba would laugh this off, and from
>> that perspective, you are right, this was no big deal.
>> But people on this list have a right to call people to task
>> for what they say. And if nothing deserves respect, and
>> anything can be said, well...it seems to me that is a
>> condition far from tango.
>
> Anything? No. But respect is a very subjective term and a very personal
> one
> as well. I don't want to bring up controversial examples that achievement
> and errors (or crime) usually go hand-in-hand. No people are flawless.
> Naturally, a balanced (again) post will help people understand that you
> are
> not trying to be disrespectful, you simply just talking about the flaws as
> well. And maybe those flaws are not flaws in everyone's eyes.
>
>> >I am not religious. I always considered teachers what they
>> are: service
>> >providers.
>>
>> This has nothing to do with religion. And "service
>> providers"? They are found in...what section of town is it?
>> On Scalabrini Ortiz late at night, you can find service
>> providers of a very particular type. But teachers of high
>> art? Service providers? :)
>
> That was (intentionally) rude, Andrew. I am a professional dancer I've
> worked with quite a few 'teachers of high art'(not just tango - actually
> most 'dance artist' consider couple dancing just cheap wriggling and not
> art...). They are people. They are trying to earn their living. They SELL
> art to you and others. Stardom and artistry is traditionally linked: dance
> teachers call themselves artists and ask for honoraria rather than to call
> themselves vocational teachers with a fee. Since most people have a inner
> need for idols or stars that are untouchable, this system works fine for
> masters of almost any genre. Obviously, this does not reduce their
> achievements as teachers or dancers (if they are good). However, a good
> teacher or a good dancer is not a deity. The relationship is still based
> on
> knowledge or entertainment for money.
>
> Aron
>
>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:38:05 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
Andy Kaye hides under his mother's skirt:
>
> I tried to dance a light dainty milonga, and I'm being
> treated to a nuevo tango to the nth degree, with giros,
> sacadas, boleos, the works. Vey!
>
> ;-)
Without my taking either side in this, let
me say that if you're going to call Aron or anyone
else out in this forum (that's right, you started
it with him), then please have the decency to engage
him honestly and straight-forwardly when he replies,
without the above kind of gutless, dodging, smarmy
putdown that is accompanied by nothing whatsoever to
do with the issues being discussed (ie. putdowns
are fine embedded with an actual argument, but not
this lob a zinger and then go run and hide bs).
It would be different if he'd chosen to attack
something you'd written, but you chose to engage
him. Maybe if you don't want to straight-forwardly
deal with a reply from someone, you might want to
consider not starting in with him in the first place.
> ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) yourself, dainty milonga boy.
Huck
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 11:57:10 -0700
From: Andrew Kaye <ethnomuse@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
I admit that Aron, nor anyone else sent me a cabeceo, so I take full responsibility for the apparent faux pas (I apparently broke the two milonga rule). Oh--it seems that I hear a cortina--Hucky, you are welcome to the next dance! ;-)
Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> wrote:
Andy Kaye hides under his mother's skirt:
>
> I tried to dance a light dainty milonga, and I'm being
> treated to a nuevo tango to the nth degree, with giros,
> sacadas, boleos, the works. Vey!
>
> ;-)
Without my taking either side in this, let
me say that if you're going to call Aron or anyone
else out in this forum (that's right, you started
it with him), then please have the decency to engage
him honestly and straight-forwardly when he replies,
without the above kind of gutless, dodging, smarmy
putdown that is accompanied by nothing whatsoever to
do with the issues being discussed (ie. putdowns
are fine embedded with an actual argument, but not
this lob a zinger and then go run and hide bs).
It would be different if he'd chosen to attack
something you'd written, but you chose to engage
him. Maybe if you don't want to straight-forwardly
deal with a reply from someone, you might want to
consider not starting in with him in the first place.
> ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) yourself, dainty milonga boy.
Huck
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:44:31 -0700
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Nito and Elba and slander
Oleh only commented on Nito and Elba dancing, he did not say Nito and Elba were not nice people or that they had no friends. He simply said something negative about their dancing and if you are Nito-Elba fan, this an opportunity say few nice things about their dancing. Cult mindset and unleashing forces of darkness from within will help no one;), IMHO, wont enlighten anybody. In any case I think lot of people are interested in knowing about Nito y Elba dancing.
Personally I am not fond of their style of dancing. I have to agree, they are truly one of the most beautiful people on the surface of the planet.
.... I watched them perform, they all seem to like it, seemed like I was the odd one. Made me wonder what it is about them. It seems their dancing is repetitive. On the other hand...what I see is
* They make NO mistakes
* They dance with solid technique, enrosques and planeos etc
* Nito leads extremely well
And I hear they never took lessons from others really.
I have a feeling their dancing is like one of those Bond movies with predictable plot, beautiful girls, gadgets, car chases;). People like it. Other than that may be its the generation they come from which makes them special.
Here is the thing...I remember.. one of their classes. Nito taught a slightly difficult pattern with sacadas etc, he invited the ladies one by one, like it was a challenge. He lead them with ease and ladies couldnt believe they actually followed him. It seemed there was absolutely nobody in the room who couldnt follow him. Well...it cant be for nothing, they are so respected and adored.
IL
bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM wrote:I too have met Nito and Elba and agree that they are incredibly sweet and gracious people.
The fact that anyone slanders any of the master teachers on this list shows ignorance to the "art of tango" - period. First of all, everybody is going to dance their own style. And I'm not just categorizing between Milonguero, Salon, Nuevo, etc... etc... etc... Every person has their own personal style of dancing. Well, I take that back...some people never develop a style of their own because they are too busy mimicking someone else, but they still something that makes the tango their way of dancing it. Any art form is objective... you may not like their particular style, but it doesn't make it bad. Technique can be bad, but is also still objective, Leads and follows can be bad, but again, still can be slightly objective.... but style is just about personal taste.
Second of all, most of these master teachers (I'm not saying all since I surely don't know them all), have by far earned the respect somehow or another as a teacher, dancer, or performer. Not all of them do each of these things well, but all of them has at least done one of them well to earn their position. We should each respect the fact that they've worked hard to have earned their position.
Most of the people on this list have nowhere near the experience with tango as Nito and Elba, or Susanna Miller, or any of the other well-known master teacher, dancer or performer. So we have no right to make any type of slander, other than maybe...I'm not that wild about their style... or... It's just not the style I like. They've put in their time, their training, and their effort to be where they are today. Respect them for that.
As for being "Closet Ballroom Dancers" - well it might not be the most demeaning insult someone could make, but it does show Oleh's ignorance to the dance and style
Lastly, about style... I've partnered with 5 different professional tango dancers in the past 4 1/2 years that I've danced it. Each one of them has had their own personal style that I've had to adjust to (something I feel is a role of the female/follower). Each of them danced technically salon style, but still completely uniquely different in form, style, technique, and musicality. Can I judge which one was best?? No. In that since, they were all equal... but different.
Quit trying to judge others dancing and concentrate on making your own better... Advice I think all dancers should take, but especially many of the people on this list.
Nicole
Miami
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