5719 "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:25:48 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" - Gustavo &
Giselle
To: "'Sergio Vandekier'" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, "'Tango-L
List'" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sergio wrote:
"When you are a good dancer and know several tango styles you adjust your
dancing to the available space, the music, your partner, the moment, the
circumstances."
Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version of "Don Juan" -
combining tight corridas, intimate embraces, and Gustavo's high-quality
salon footwork during Giselle's giro (impeccably executed common
"traditional" elements) with multiple fourth-sacadas, supersweet colgadas,
beautifully timed piernazos, no-embrace back sacadas, "colgada boleos" and
superslow linear boleos (virtuoso "nuevo" elements) all done with beautiful
connection and near-flawless musicality...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0
... and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the social floor of
the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the ronda, and
inspiring improvisational skill.
Enjoy!
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:03:14 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
Brian wrote: " and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the
social floor of the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the
ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill."
Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
Giselle dance like in the video. If indeed they danced like that at a
typical, say Buenos Aires milonga, I would call them a menace and it would
completely destroy my dance experience on the floor with them. On the other
hand, if I were part of the audience in the video, I would be enraptured to
watch them all day long.
Whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with your comment:
"Like Paris in the 1900's, cool things may happen elsewhere on the cultural
frontiers. But until current tango developments are "ratified by Buenos
Aires Tango", whatever that may mean to a given individual, it makes sense
for that individual to assume that they're not really "the thing" yet. And
this mechanism alone will serve to effectively define for all of us, through
the coming decades of further development, what at any given moment is
really "Argentine Tango".
I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos Aires Tango"
doesn't mean very much, and maybe the thought should be more on the lines of
"what's mostly danced". Just because something might be in the R&D stage of
development, doesn't make it a successful product.
Anton
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 21:31:48 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
To: anton@alidas.com.au
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<a6baf9ab0908131731g387a95c6n30703802ea74ccd9@mail.gmail.com>
.. "I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos
Aires Tango"
doesn't mean very much" . . .
I wholeheartedly agree - first of all - there is noone here in BsAS
that "ratifies", second, Tango is - like all in Life - subject to
constant evoluton, third, Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced all
over the world - like it or not - agree or not -it is reality -
amazing how many concepts, interpretations and analyzing is out there -
poetry no longer is poetry if analyzed. A Rose is no longer what it
is, if all analyzed why it smells and how and if - nor is a kiss, nor
is mystery, nor is a scent . . . it is NOT science, it is an art, an
experience, poetry . . . how many subjective ideas and explanations
are floating around. . . why? What does it do? Does it make you a
"better" dancer? Rodolfo Dinzel once made an interesting remark: ' . .
. there are those who want to "have" the Tango, and there are those
who "are" the Tango . . ." now what does he mean by that? also "
there are those who are creative and simply dance . . and then there
are those who copy the ones that are creative . . " hmmmm . . . food
for thought?
On 8/13/09, Anton Stanley <anton@alidas.com.au> wrote:
> Brian wrote: " and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the
> social floor of the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the
> ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill."
>
> Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
> Giselle dance like in the video. If indeed they danced like that at a
> typical, say Buenos Aires milonga, I would call them a menace and it would
> completely destroy my dance experience on the floor with them. On the other
> hand, if I were part of the audience in the video, I would be enraptured to
> watch them all day long.
>
> Whilst agreeing wholeheartedly with your comment:
> "Like Paris in the 1900's, cool things may happen elsewhere on the cultural
> frontiers. But until current tango developments are "ratified by Buenos
> Aires Tango", whatever that may mean to a given individual, it makes sense
> for that individual to assume that they're not really "the thing" yet. And
> this mechanism alone will serve to effectively define for all of us, through
> the coming decades of further development, what at any given moment is
> really "Argentine Tango".
> I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos Aires Tango"
> doesn't mean very much, and maybe the thought should be more on the lines of
> "what's mostly danced". Just because something might be in the R&D stage of
> development, doesn't make it a successful product.
>
> Anton
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:26:07 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
Bettina wrote: " Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced all
over the world - like it or not - agree or not -it is reality"
Hard to argue against that sort of logic. So why do we want to persist
preserving a label of "Argentine Tango", a label I might add which only
exists outside of Argentina to my knowledge. Maybe it's more appropriate, in
attempting to accommodate the diversity of views, to have labels like
"Tango-as danced in Argentina". By that I mean not only danced in Argentina
but also Tango that has been filtered by Argentine culture. If the "filtered
by culture" concept has any credence, then no more ambiguity in labelling.
Tango as danced in Texas. Tango as danced in Massachusetts. In my own corner
of the world, there might be Tango as danced in Sydney, or Tango as danced
in Brisbane. Ask anyone in Sydney whether there's a cultural difference, I'm
sure their answer will be affirmative. So the question is do we want world
tango, with all its derivatives, or do we want tango as mostly danced in
Argentina? Or maybe culture has no influence on Tango and I just drink too
much.
Anton
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 19:28:55 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo&Giselle
Anton wrote:
"Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
Giselle dance like in the video..."
I have seen them dance at several milongas in both Boulder and Denver - but
within a social context, as I said: "with consummate taste, complete
awareness of the ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill". Obviously,
there is no "ronda" in this video - there are no other dancers with whom to
form a ronda (an expression referring to the mutual decision by all dancers
to follow line-of-dance as they share the floor, and GENERALLY to keep
moving "downstream" together).
Anton continues:
"If indeed they danced like that at a typical, say Buenos Aires milonga, I
would call them a menace and it would completely destroy my dance experience
on the floor with them. On the other
hand, if I were part of the audience in the video, I would be enraptured to
watch them all day long."
In the milongas I mention, what often happens is that, for their own
reasons, some dancers stop dancing because they prefer to sit in order not
to miss watching (but, you know, it's a delicate thing- if EVERYONE sits,
then it feels like a performance, which changes the vibe - so sometimes if
it's a milonga we're hosting, I'll keep dancing just to keep the
social-dance vibe going). I have to say it's a VERY cool sensation to be
social-dancing near them - very inspiring and satisfying in a way that's
difficult to describe - and speaking as a leader, BOY, do I feel secure on
the side facing them!
Anton, what I meant to express was not that they dance "like this" at a
typical Buenos Aires milonga WHEN IT IS CROWDED. But their skills in
evidence on the video ALSO contribute to making them EXQUISITE social
dancers - as anyone who has had a chance to social dance with either of them
will attest. In the case of Gustavo, we're talking about someone who danced
virtually EVERY NIGHT in all the hot milongas of Buenos Aires for FIFTEEN
YEARS. The guy knows what he is doing, you know? Of COURSE they don't dance
like that when it's crowded - it would be physically impossible.
On the other hand, anyone who stays late enough at a typical Buenos Aires
milonga may well see a similar level of non-crowding AT SOME POINT. Such a
milonga visitor may well also see those dancers that can dance this well
altering their choices, as Sergio writes, to take expressive advantage of
their greater share of the space available - but really, this is common
sense, right? Does anyone drive exactly the same on a four-lane empty rural
highway as they do in urban bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic? Do we need
to frame this in the context of "driving style" to explain the difference in
choices drivers are making?
Anton further writes:
"I would like to add for consideration, that "ratified by Buenos Aires
Tango"
doesn't mean very much, and maybe the thought should be more on the lines of
"what's mostly danced". Just because something might be in the R&D stage of
development, doesn't make it a successful product."
I purposely said that "ratified by Buenos Aires Tango" will mean different
things to different people. Perhaps for you it will mean whether people
dance this way at your favorite late-night milonga. Someone else may define
it as what's happening in classic places like Sunderland or afternoon
milongas like El Arranque. Someone else may define it as what the maestros
are doing at CITA. Someone else may define it as what the major established
Buenos Aires tango schools are teaching in their curricula. Someone else
may define it as what the talented young tango people have been doing with
each other in Buenos Aires for a year or more. But I think we agree with
Trini that "Buenos Aires Tango" is the common frame of reference, because
IMHO it's Buenos Aires where ALL the tango pots (dance, music, tradition,
innovation) are boiling the hottest.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:55:30 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
To: anton@alidas.com.au
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<a6baf9ab0908131855h288ea32fs280fb552af62623d@mail.gmail.com>
There are as many "styles" in tango as there are couples - if you look
closely - each couple on a dance floor has their very own unique style
- there is no one like the other, yes there may be similarities, some
similar steps or moves, but each has their own expression and flavor.
why does everything have to be "classifed" ? For what? For who? For
what purpose?
"Nuevo" style, "Naveira" style, "Urquieze" style - Tango is Tango is
Tango - all the explanations do nothing. There is an expression
"beginner;s mind" very approriate in tango. It is about experience and
perception and exploration and primarily, imagination, invention and
not about analysis.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:04:35 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
To: "'bettina maria fahlbusch'" <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Bettina
I emphasize with you. However why do you say Tango is Tango is Tango, when
it appears to me that you mean dancing is dancing is dancing! You're using a
label without explaining what the label means.
Anton
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:06:24 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
Bettina wrote: " Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced all
over the world - like it or not - agree or not -it is reality"
Hard to argue against that sort of logic. So why do we want to persist
preserving a label of "Argentine Tango", a label I might add which only
exists outside of Argentina to my knowledge. Maybe it's more appropriate, in
attempting to accommodate the diversity of views, to have labels like
"Tango-as danced in Argentina". By that I mean not only danced in Argentina
but also Tango that has been filtered by Argentine culture. If the "filtered
by culture" concept has any credence, then no more ambiguity in labelling.
Tango as danced in Texas. Tango as danced in Massachusetts. In my own corner
of the world, there might be Tango as danced in Sydney, or Tango as danced
in Brisbane. Ask anyone in Sydney whether there's a cultural difference, I'm
sure their answer will be affirmative. So the question is do we want world
tango, with all its derivatives, or do we want tango as mostly danced in
Argentina? Or maybe culture has no influence on Tango and I just drink too
much.
Anton
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 03:18:42 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" dancing to Di Sarli
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Bettina says:
"1 - I wholeheartedly agree - first of all - there is noone here in BsASthat "ratifies", second, Tango is - like all in Life - subject toconstant evoluton, third, Tango IS not just Argentine, but danced allover the world - like it or not - agree or not -it is reality -
***Should I say that Viennese Waltz is not Austrian because it is danced all over the world? Or that Pizza is not Italian because there is a pizzeria in every corner in Buenos Aires?
"2 - why does everything have to be "classifed" ? For what? For who? Forwhat purpose?"
*** I can think of many reasons. Not long ago when people ignored that several tango styles existed, they would bring instructors from Argentina that taught different styles, contradicting each other, teaching different techniques for leading and following,different tango moves, greatly confusing the students.
There were long discussions about what "real" A.Tango was. The milongueros argued that the embrace is always closed. The Traditional tango dancers that it could be both closed and open, etc.
Brian says:
"3 - "Buenos Aires Tango" is the common frame of reference, becauseIMHO it's Buenos Aires where ALL the tango pots (dance, music, tradition,innovation) are boiling the hottest."
*** No doubt whatsoever!!!
Tango, the same as Rembetika around Piraeus (Greece), Fado in Portugal, the blues in the US south were musical types and dances that developed in a very special and unique milieus, that were amazingly similar.
They began on the margins of society, the periphery of cities (most other dances developed in rural areas), creation of displaced peoples, the underworld of migrant, poor workers, living on the borderline of illegality, drugs, gambling, prostitution.
Men and women that frequently scorned straight society, its laws and conventions.
Each one of those dances and all the others are a reflection of the culture that originated them. All of them were initially considered proper of low class people, without any artistic value.
Later on they became accepted by the general society and became very popular
TAngo has a special situation due to its universal appeal, but then so do the US music and dance and perhaps also in some degree all the ballroom dances of the American Continent. (Samba, Salsa, Mambo, Cumbia,Merengue, Cha-Cha, bolero, Rumba).
Best regards, Sergio
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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
> From: Anton Stanley anton@alidas.com.au
>? In my own corner
> of the world, there might be Tango as danced in Sydney, or Tango as danced
> in Brisbane.
>
By all means give it those labels, if you want. But if it's not the same as they
dance in Argentina, please don't call it 'Argentine Tango'.
Jack
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 05:45:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
--- On Thu, 8/13/09, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version
> of "Don Juan"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0
Thanks for the video, Bryan. They dance it beautifully, but to my eye, it's not quite right. As if there's a little too much work involved. Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead of swaths in their performance. However, this was a performance piece and perhaps the swaths were there mainly for his audience.
This goes back to music being a key part of the evolution of a dance. When I watch people at a milonga, more nuevo steps come out during Bajofondo or non-tango music. It looks right and feels right. The movements developed during the modern era. What would using those same movements in older pieces serve, other than to say "because we can"? We keep sayng that back in the day, the dancers were part of the orchestra. That the orchestras were motivated in part by the dancers. The nuevo dancers weren't there back in the day. Yes, you can dance nuevo to older music, but I think nuevo looks best when done to modern pieces, especially with the average dancer.
Yesterday, during a private I decided to work on nuevo moves with a student. The logical choice for music was Carlos Libedinsky. Use DiSarli? Nah.
I like experiencing the different characteristics of the 3 main styles of dancing. I think dancing each in the most suitable music (I suppose it's actually the other way around at a milonga) brings out the best of that style and the music. Know what I mean?
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:36:57 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<a6baf9ab0908150836s6d4c192uc4955c25d4d3ba11@mail.gmail.com>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0
Trini says:
" . . . Thanks for the video, Bryan. They dance it beautifully, but
to my eye, it's not quite right. As if there's a little too much work
involved. Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead
of swaths in their performance. However, this was a performance piece
and perhaps the swaths were there mainly for his audience."
I mean this leaves me speechless. This choreography, floorcraft,
musicality, putting together of so many comolex elements is nothing
short of "majestic as Brian puts it beautifully.
To have that analyzed and categorized in such a way, as a dedicated
student for over 10 years of Tango, such a comment as "it does not
quite look right" feels offensive.
Maybe you try?
To do what they do here - that takes a LOT. That kind of art is rare,
and in the conversation of "shut up and dance . ." is the point. . . .
You dance and you dance and you dance and you dance - and there is no
time to talk all about it, you discover, you train, you redefine, you
question, you try, you discard, till - wow, something new!
there is never an end to it. You don't need to point out you are a
"teacher" . It is VERY VERY humbling to have that kind of engagement
with tango or any art. As you always find yourself still at the
Beginning. Even while people all around you may tell you you are a
great dancer and ask for your card. To make a comment as such, I can
only say: maybe you want to look again - deeper?
On 8/14/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- On Thu, 8/13/09, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Here's Gustavo & Giselle dancing their majestic version
>> of "Don Juan"
>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FOjT959J0
>
>
> Thanks for the video, Bryan. They dance it beautifully, but to my eye, it's
> not quite right. As if there's a little too much work involved.
> Personally, I would have preferred touches of nuevo instead of swaths in
> their performance. However, this was a performance piece and perhaps the
> swaths were there mainly for his audience.
>
> This goes back to music being a key part of the evolution of a dance. When
> I watch people at a milonga, more nuevo steps come out during Bajofondo or
> non-tango music. It looks right and feels right. The movements developed
> during the modern era. What would using those same movements in older
> pieces serve, other than to say "because we can"? We keep sayng that back
> in the day, the dancers were part of the orchestra. That the orchestras
> were motivated in part by the dancers. The nuevo dancers weren't there back
> in the day. Yes, you can dance nuevo to older music, but I think nuevo
> looks best when done to modern pieces, especially with the average dancer.
>
> Yesterday, during a private I decided to work on nuevo moves with a student.
> The logical choice for music was Carlos Libedinsky. Use DiSarli? Nah.
>
> I like experiencing the different characteristics of the 3 main styles of
> dancing. I think dancing each in the most suitable music (I suppose it's
> actually the other way around at a milonga) brings out the best of that
> style and the music. Know what I mean?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 12:34:16 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] "Nuevo" Dancing to Di Sarli: "Don Juan" -
Gustavo & Giselle
To: anton@alidas.com.au
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Anton Stanley wrote:
> Brian wrote: " and many of us have seen them bring this mastery to the
> social floor of the milonga with consummate taste, complete awareness of the
> ronda, and inspiring improvisational skill."
>
> Brian, could you name a few social milongas where you have seen Gustavo &
> Giselle dance like in the video.
He said they brought *that kind of mastery* to the social floor, not
the exact same dancing.
Given that he said they did it with complete awareness of the
ronda, he even specifically implied it *wouldn't* be danced "like
in the video".
