5768 Nuevo Milonguero
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I am posting what amounts to pure treason. The Milonguero's last
hope is alas...no more! Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce a new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many others, were hoping to never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
..in all seriousness I really admire both women as great dancers of the tango style that I aspire to and I will attend their Academia when I finally get to BsAs...but you know what? People are going to see performances like this and think that it's cool and actually do it and develope it further...ugh. Such 'nuevo' nonsense is perfect for cultures outside of BsAs that have an entirely different 'interest' in the dance.
So called Argentine Tango is morphing at light speed...Hamburg, Holland, Italy, Turkey, Russia..wow, what will emerge from these centers?
I am both amazed, interested and alarmed..alarmed por mi querrido abrazo del tango Argentine
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=tango+milonguero&search_sort=video_view_count
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 06:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
Hi Mario,
I know you posted this tongue-in-cheek, but rest assured. This looked like it was a demo at the end of a class, not during a milonga. Teachers do not wear jazz sneakers at milongas. Don't let the background fool you. When Susanna toured with her niece Maria, she was also promoting Maria as a teacher, so it makes sense that they demonstrate that Maria dances both roles. And switching roles is not nuevo.
By the way, Susanna will be in Pittsburgh next weekend (Oct. 8-14) if you'd like to come for a visit.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- On Sat, 9/26/09, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 9:30 PM
> I am posting what amounts to pure
> treason. The Milonguero's last
> hope is alas...no more!? Here, two godesses of the
> Milonguero cult, introduce a new wrinkle to the dance; one
> that I, myself and many others, were hoping to never
> see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
> ? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
> ..in all seriousness I really admire both women as great
> dancers of the tango style that I aspire to and I will
> attend their Academia when I finally get to BsAs...but you
> know what? People are going to see performances like this
> and think that it's cool and actually do it and develope it
> further...ugh. Such 'nuevo' nonsense is perfect for cultures
> outside of BsAs that have an entirely different 'interest'
> in the dance.
> So called? Argentine Tango is morphing at light
> speed...Hamburg, Holland, Italy, Turkey, Russia..wow, what
> will emerge from these centers?
> I am both amazed, interested and alarmed..alarmed por mi
> querrido abrazo del tango Argentine
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=tango+milonguero&search_sort=video_view_count
>
>
> ? ? ?
>
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 06:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
> From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
>
>?Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce a
> new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many others, were hoping to
> never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
> ? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
>
Firstly, this isn't Nuevo and, secondly, it's not?a performance. It's clearly
a demonstration at the end of a class.
But you'd be right to attend their classes. The wonderful Susanna Miller?
and Maria Plazaola are 2 of the very best teachers of milonguero style.
I'm not a big fan of same-sex dances [to put it mildy] but this is, by far,
the best demonstration I've ever seen by 2 women.
Jack
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:19:28 -0500
From: burak ozkosem <buraktango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<35ba58f10910010919k79f8e54fi1d1df29c4beaf2ab@mail.gmail.com>
Does "dancing with same sex" new to Argentine Tango?
We all know the answer to this! If you go back to the developmental
stages of Tango, you see men dancing with other men. After a decade or
so, women were introduced to Tango. Therefore pre-milongueros danced
with each other either to practice, or to show off for status gain in
the brotherhood, or to attract women at "peringundines: a.k.a
academias". Even later around golden age of Tango, sometimes only
best dancers could get to dance with good followers, if a leader
wasn't that good he frequently would end up trying the moves with
other guys.
Actually there was a thread in sometime last year titled "Early
Dancing in Argentina" on Tango-L, and you can find the whole
discussion from the archives, but here is my post to that thread last
year.
"Masculination of Women in Tango"
While i was looking for something else i noticed this paragraph from
the book called "Tango and the Political Economy of Passion" by M.
Savigliano (pages 60-61).
" No interpretations entertain the idea that women took pleasure in
dancing with one another. Instead, male authors have reasoned that
woman-with-woman tangoing must be either a preparation or a poor
substitute for tangoing with men. There are also records of few early
episodes of women dancing tango with each other in public. These
performance have been constructed as acts presented for the pleasure
of male spectators. Again, the assumption has been that a woman's
erotic interest was not in her female tango partner but in the men who
gazed at the spectacle.Thus, women's eroticism is constituted as
restricted to a heterosexual money economy [...]. The milongueras
eroticism circulated in a strictly limited way, confined to
illegitimate encounters marked by heterosexism and class."
Another interesting note from E.H. Puccia's book " El Buenos Aires de
An. Villoldo 1860-1919", page 155) newspaper ["El Nacional"
27.01.1881] note about female leaders in the early years of Argentine
Tango talks about a woman called Carlota Gonzalez who lives in La
Boca at Suarez No 81, she was well known and respected dancer with
masculine energy and her knife...
In Historia del tango, Leon Benaros notes that Diccionario historico
argentino defines the academies (a.k.a peringundines) as the venues
dancing was between men only.
Uruguayan Historian J.C Puppo in his book, Ese mundo del bajo, pages
29-30, informs us about "Cafe Zunino" in Montevideo, all regulars were
men, also well known tango venue with many popular tango musicians and
dancers visits ( i.e.Orquesta de Arolas played at Cafe Zunino in
1919). Cafe Zunino was a gay-cafe of the time where homosexuals call
it "Conventillo Rosado". Some of the popular dancers were nicknamed
with feminine meanings "El Yesero", "La Lora", "La Loca" Garcia, "La
Vieja".
Tango was a perfect match for "vida mala" those days, Lidia Ferrari
claims that tango is innocent and it shouldn't be labeled, she says
whoever wants to integrate their fantasies into tango, they are the
responsible ones of the negative labeling.
Body-Gender issues in Argentine Tango is a very interesting subject
which remains left behind by "official" tango history.
Burak
Chicago
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
>>
>>?Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce a
>> new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many others, were hoping to
>> never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
>> ? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
>>
>
> Firstly, this isn't Nuevo and, secondly, it's not?a performance. It's clearly
> a demonstration at the end of a class.
>
> But you'd be right to attend their classes. The wonderful Susanna Miller
> and Maria Plazaola are 2 of the very best teachers of milonguero style.
>
> I'm not a big fan of same-sex dances [to put it mildy] but this is, by far,
> the best demonstration I've ever seen by 2 women.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 09:42:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: RonTango <rontango@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>,
sopelote@yahoo.com
I agree this is not nuevo milonguero. It is 2 women dancing together and changing roles. Ignoring that, it otherwise looks like tango milonguero, the tango danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires. However, same sex couples dancing together are extremely rare in the over 100 traditional milongas in Buenos Aires. It is not the norm in traditional tango culture, where a man leads and a woman follows. However, there are a few non-traditional milongas such as La Marshall where same sex couples or role reversal is commonplace.?These milongas are clearly labeled or identified in advertising as non-traditional in one sense or another.
As for nuevo milonguero, it is a label used to describe the insertion of nuevo elements such as volcadas and colgadas into tango milonguero, i.e., the use of these elements in a close embrace. It is a term that is used for marketing purposes, to attract people to tango danced in close embrace who would otherwise not be interested. Nuevo elements are not part of the tango milonguero danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires.
Many will say that nuevo elements are derived from traditional tango. A volcada is a 'fall'. Movements such as a calesita with a tilt (used rarely in Bs As milonga), sometimes pointed to as the 'origin' of the volcada, are not volcadas; the women does not fall from her axis. A milonguero does not pull or push a woman off her axis. Bad dancers might. The only colgadas I have seen in Buenos Aires milongas are the jewelry around women's necks. As for 'linear', 'circular' and whatever direction boleos and ganchos and the wrapping of legs around body parts that are best left unwrapped, they just don't occur in Bs As milongas. They violate other dancers' space. That is contrary to milonga codes.
Ron
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 1:35 PM
> > From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
> >
> >?Here, two godesses of the Milonguero cult, introduce
> a
> > new wrinkle to the dance; one that I, myself and many
> others, were hoping to
> > never see...Alas, fair Prince...we are no more.
> > ? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcVDHdxCbY
> >
>
> Firstly, this isn't Nuevo and, secondly, it's not?a
> performance. It's clearly
> a demonstration at the end of a class.
>
> But you'd be right to attend their classes. The wonderful
> Susanna Miller?
> and Maria Plazaola are 2 of the very best teachers of
> milonguero style.
>
> I'm not a big fan of same-sex dances [to put it mildy] but
> this is, by far,
> the best demonstration I've ever seen by 2 women.
>
> Jack
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 14:36:06 -0400
From: Sorin Varzaru <tango@bostonphotographs.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<bc7e48270910011136m59183619mcd41fd51661c0201@mail.gmail.com>
Huh, I must've been to another BsAs in June and July. And maybe you
should tell Tete that the way he dances is all wrong. I've seen him
leading off axis moves, and reverse roles with a number of women. I
actually have a picture of that. Good dancers use whatever they can to
make the dance fun. The difference between them and the bad dancers is
they will only lead the moves that can be done in the available space
and both themselves an their partners can actually execute it.
Maybe some people on tango-l could try spending less time arguing
about tango and more time actually dancing. Just a thought.
Sorin
my photography site: https://www.bostonphotographs.com
my milonga review site: https://www.milongareview.com
blog: https://sorinsblog.blogspot.com
email: sorin@bostonphotographs.com
On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:42 PM, RonTango <rontango@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> Nuevo elements are not part of the tango milonguero danced in the milongas of Buenos Aires.
>
> A milonguero does not pull or push a woman off her axis. Bad dancers might. The only colgadas I have seen in Buenos Aires milongas are the jewelry around women's necks. As for 'linear', 'circular' and whatever direction boleos and ganchos and the wrapping of legs around body parts that are best left unwrapped, they just don't occur in Bs As milongas.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:54:16 -0500
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340910022054l172e5fd1pe88e258c9238f4ef@mail.gmail.com>
Yahoo has been holding 'rontango' hostage all day due to spam
suspicion, so I'm posting a reply from another account
--- On Thu, 10/1/09, Sorin Varzaru <tango@bostonphotographs.com> wrote:
> Huh, I must've been to another BsAs
> in June and July. And maybe you
> should tell Tete that the way he dances is all wrong. I've
> seen him
> leading off axis moves, and reverse roles with a number of
> women. I
> actually have a picture of that.
I'm assuming this was a demo. I've seen Tete dance in several milongas
in both Buenos Aires and the US, and I didn't see him switch roles or
lead off axis movements.
I got curious about this statement because I've heard it before a few
times, I think always from people who do not know appear to know tango
milonguero. Last night I reviewed about a dozen Tete & Silvia videos.
One thing that is apparent is that if you concentrate on Silvia's
axis, it is always apilado. For example, look closely at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIne2fqkcwM
In fact, it is remarkable how in video after video, Silvia's axis
stays in this apilado position throughout the dance. The only
exception I saw was in the following video, where Tete puts Silvia
into an off-axis forward lean about 3 or 4 times:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3415HufIU4
This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now
and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour or
so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman
is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change
position. It is not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the
off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis
and step forward.
> Good dancers use whatever
> they can to
> make the dance fun. The difference between them and the bad
> dancers is
> they will only lead the moves that can be done in the
> available space
> and both themselves an their partners can actually execute
> it.
Fun is good. But doing 'whatever' at some point becomes a different
dance that is no longer tango. A dance isn't 'tango' just because you
call it 'tango'. The core of tango is in the connection between man
and woman in the embrace, connected to tango music, not the swinging
of bodies off axis and thrashing about of limbs to electronic music
with a bandoneon.
Ron
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:08:20 +1000
From: Niki Papapetrou <niki.papapetrou@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<3eff99210910031708t4ffbbb2axa55d2ec2a0df68f0@mail.gmail.com>
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Tango Society of Central Illinois <
tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yahoo has been holding 'rontango' hostage all day due to spam
> suspicion, so I'm posting a reply from another account
>
> --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Sorin Varzaru <tango@bostonphotographs.com> wrote:
>
> > Huh, I must've been to another BsAs
> > in June and July. And maybe you
> > should tell Tete that the way he dances is all wrong. I've
> > seen him
> > leading off axis moves, and reverse roles with a number of
> > women. I
> > actually have a picture of that.
>
> I'm assuming this was a demo. I've seen Tete dance in several milongas
> in both Buenos Aires and the US, and I didn't see him switch roles or
> lead off axis movements.
>
>
Sorin ,
I think I know what you are talking about, as I have seen (and have been the
recipient of) it a number of times while in BsAs. I have never seen Tete
changing roles within the dance.
What Tete *will *occasionally do (and what I suspect you were witnessing) is
change the arm positions. With him, everything comes from the chest -
*his*chest. The position of his arms is irrelevant - he can have his
right arm or
his left across the lady's back - it doesn't matter, as it in no way affects
the lead.
abrazos
--
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki
( https://tangotrails.blogspot.com )
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 20:13:32 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
> This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now
> and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour or
> so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman
> is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change
> position. It is not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the
> off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis
> and step forward.
>
IMHO It is the same thing technically. The difference is only in the
amount (which I believe is the question of personal preference = style).
I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of
dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could
be identified without doubt just by looking.
The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
- a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a method of
teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of
sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which probably
never existed in a pure form in the first place)
- a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means there
is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to
tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves and
not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher,
style, area, community etc.)
- goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and
smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every
tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves
- another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body
awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make
connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do
not understand it yet
In simple terms: using the scientific method to analyse, teach or
'build' (improvise) tango. It is the result of the same process that
happened to all folklore dances around the world which required a
teacher (vs. was learned in its natural environment by imitation only).
There are thousands of pages of research on the subject. If you use the
results on tango, it yields only this: tango as it was danced does not
exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions,
locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced
by other forms.
The present tango has teachers, instead of self-teaching societies,
present tango has milongas organized by a subculture of dancers for a
subculture of dancers, instead of mainstream business to the general
population, present tango has choreographed shows, which did not exist
before, present tango is mostly danced by non-porteno people, outside
BsAs/Montevideo barrios, mostly whom are upper middle class
intellectuals with university degrees, openness to the world, sometimes
speaking several languages, vs. the uneducated porteno lower class
workers, later on mostly middle class non-intellectual professionals
with still a lot less education, present tango is danced by people
conditioned for the present day perception of personal freedom, goals,
rights, way of life, social rules, sexual roles, vs. something that
existed quite a few large political, social, technical and cultural
revolutions before.
Face it: what is NOT 'nuevo' is really just an attempt to imitated the
form of a dance that was danced a very long time ago in a different era.
A historical dance. It is the same thing as if you would try to recreate
the 80s style in pop. The 80s pop is still pop, the same way 2009's
popular music is called pop. Are the two the same? Surely not. Are they
called the same? Most definitely yes. Are the former still current? No,
unless you specifically play it at a retro-party. (We still have balls
where we dance a late 18th century dance - waltz - onto late 19th/early
20th century music, in usually mid-20th century clothing, but those are
not your everyday life are they?) Of course some forms of music do
change so much that they get a new name after a certain time, but that's
not the issue here.
If the time distance in this example is not 'big' enough, then take
classical styles. There are huge differences between styles: baroque
spanned two hundred years. Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared
to Monteverdi, but it is still the same style. (NB: the actual naming of
'baroque' style in music was invented almost 50 years AFTER tango
appeared, and was not generally used until the later era of the golden
age of tango...so, names do not mean anything)
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4479 (20091004) __________
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Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 11:35:28 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370910041135t10d4e1c6s16d4b0af452e9041@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of
> dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could
> be identified without doubt just by looking.
>
> The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
> - a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a method of
> teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of
> sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which probably
> never existed in a pure form in the first place)
> - a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means there
> is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to
> tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves and
> not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher,
> style, area, community etc.)
> - goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and
> smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every
> tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves
> - another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body
> awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make
> connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do
> not understand it yet
>
>
What about cargo pants? And you didn't say anything about having to
wear designer sneakers with suede glued to the bottoms of them.
Huck
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:05:00 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: " 'Ecsedy ?ron' " <aron@milonga.hu>, "'Tango-L'" <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
?ron, you wrote:
>>>
I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of
dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that could
be identified without doubt just by looking...
The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
- a structured way of building up your dancing...
- a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance...
- goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and
smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and every
tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves...
- another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body
awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make
connection, communication between couple understandable for those who do
not understand it yet...
...tango as it was danced does not
exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions,
locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced
by other forms...
...Face it: what is NOT 'nuevo' is really just an attempt to imitated the
form of a dance that was danced a very long time ago in a different era.
A historical dance. It is the same thing as if you would try to recreate
the 80s style in pop...
There are huge differences between [classical] styles: baroque
spanned two hundred years. Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared
to Monteverdi, but it is still the same style...
<<<
Well, I am just awestruck by this message - a true pleasure to read and
savor. Thank you for taking the conversation to a new level. Vivaldi as
"power metal" - I love it! Bravissimo!
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:14:32 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370910041314n72452c43t7f8a7eb49b12df66@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>wrote:
> ?ron, you wrote:
> >>>
> > > > Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared to Monteverdi, but it is
> still the same style...
> <<<
> Well, I am just awestruck by this message - a true pleasure to read and
> savor. Thank you for taking the conversation to a new level. Vivaldi as
> "power metal" - I love it! Bravissimo!
>
Other than a complete (and common) misuse of the word "literally," it
was indeed a very interesting comparison.
Huck
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 22:47:06 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Thank you for correcting it. It was probably a Hunglicism :)
The most likely reason is that I spent only ten days of my life in an
English speaking country.
Also helps when your parents speak the language and it is the only way
they talk to you while you grow up, which in my case was not a given...
The 'a' was also unnecessary in the quoted sentence. Upon second reading
I realized that I made quite a few mistakes in the text, but I didn't
really mean to write a university paper either.
I guess most people still understood what I wanted to communicate.
Aron
Budapest, Hungary
Huck Kennedy ?rta:
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>wrote:
>
>
>> ?ron, you wrote:
>>
>> > > > Vivaldi is a literally power metal compared to Monteverdi, but it is
>> still the same style...
>> <<<
>> Well, I am just awestruck by this message - a true pleasure to read and
>> savor. Thank you for taking the conversation to a new level. Vivaldi as
>> "power metal" - I love it! Bravissimo!
>>
>>
>
> Other than a complete (and common) misuse of the word "literally," it
> was indeed a very interesting comparison.
>
> Huck
>
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
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Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 23:00:50 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
> What about cargo pants? And you didn't say anything about having to
> wear designer sneakers with suede glued to the bottoms of them.
>
What do cargo pants have to do with dancing? I mean fashions changed
quite a bit during the last 100+ years of tango and I would say that if
contemporary people normally go out partying in cargo pants nowadays,
then going out to tango in cargo pants would just imply that they are
trying to make tango a part of their 'daily routine' and not some kind
of an atavism like the fancy balls or ballroom competitions lamely
mimicing the parties of the nobility in the past (in the US: mimicing
the partying of rich families of the past who in turn had been mimicing
the partying of European nobility).
Neither I, nor my friends wear a tuxedo or even a fancy striped suit
when they go out to have fun (dancing or not). They rather wear jeans or
cargo pants. To me that means tango - by itself - doesn't come with a
dress code. Of course, you can organize a fancy milonga, but that will
be a 'special event'. In our community we have several people who don't
even have a suit or even a dinner jacket. They would certainly feel
stupid if they'd need to buy one to dance tango.
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
https://www.eset.com
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 08:36:36 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: From: Ecsedy ?ron Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
What a delightful read Aron on what is tango:
>tango as it was danced does not
>exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions,
>locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced
>by other forms.
So why do so many people make a pilgrimage to BsAs?
cheers
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:01:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60632.64.229.162.105.1254693719.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com>
This thread provokes me to say:
I read people I respect equally seemingly on one side or another of a
"divide." How can this be?
Well, fortunately, we all have our own relationships and/or opinions.
So we can see that there is no problem - other than semantics or
individual terms of reference, probably.
I just want to say that I personally feel so happy - and have for years -
that tango dancers who's first language is not English just do it - send
their thoughts to this forum.
I hope they are never discouraged from doing so.
I believe English-speaking people should work hard to read thoughtful
nuances (as opposed to "literal" meanings) into such posts. And thread
accordingly.
Let's read and write as we dance - not as we "read" in our own language
with judgement and assurance.
:-)
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2009 18:12:27 -0400
From: macfroggy@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: tango-l@mit.edu
No, but in tradition-minded
BsAs, dressing in "elegant sport" (no jeans, shorts, cargo pants, or
athletic shoes), is in respect to the tango. Normally gentlemen wear
nice slacks with a button shirt. Jackets or tuxedos are not necessary.
cherie
https://tangocherie.blogspot.com
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:54:16 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
When I was learning tango in the mid-1990s, nuevo clearly referred to
the work of Gustavo, Fabian and Chicho. Nuevo meant analysis and
exploration. I know that these days some people use nuevo to mean a
style (or even a music?... although that doesn't make any sense to at
all). To me "style" is something you put on top of tango, and is a
choice, as in choice of embrace, choice of figures, choice of
appearance.
If we're inventing, we could make up other names: Mis-tango, Meh-
tango, Neo-Tango, and even Non-tango.
I really liked Ecsedy's comment about Nuevo, reminding us that Nuevo
is NOT a style or form of dancing. I agree with him that Nuevo is more
appropriate to refer to a method of analysis. This restricted
definition of nuevo FREES US UP to view tango as multi-dimensional.
Analysis, technique and style are different dimensions.
In other words, to me:
- tango (the essence) is about feeling, intuition, musicality,
energy, dynamics, relationship and culture.
- steps are about analysis, mechanics, choreography, and decisions
about how to move.
- style is the look and appearance of tango.
- history is the rich tradition of tango in it's time periods and
neighborhoods.
In my analysis, nuevo only usefully refers to the middle item.
Stylistically: If "milonguero" (whatever that means) is my preferred
style, my purpose is to express music, and the energy of partnership.
Milonguero means in the choreographical sense, my steps are dictated
by trying to maintain a very close connection at all times.
Technically: Yes, I have studied and incorporate "nuevo" methodology
in the gustavian sense. And as a teacher and dancer I really
appreciate technical issues of axis and balance between axes, symmetry
and mirrors, possibilities and technical analysis. Steps and technique
are certainly helpful for expression.
Essentially: But, the most important thing remains: dancing tango is
mainly about expressing music and feelings.
Historically, if we talk about Tango,it is so important that tango not
lose its ties to its traditions and history.
On Oct 4, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Ecsedy ?ron wrote:
>
>> This movement, sometimes called 'el puente' (bridge) can be seen now
>> and then in Buenos Aires milongas, but one may have to wait an hour
>> or
>> so scanning the floor to see it. However, in this movement, the woman
>> is not displaced from her position, i.e., her feet do not change
>> position. It is not a 'volcada' (fall) as used in nuevo, where the
>> off axis tilt is so extreme it causes the woman to fall off her axis
>> and step forward.
>>
> IMHO It is the same thing technically. The difference is only in the
> amount (which I believe is the question of personal preference =
> style).
>
> I believe that 'nuevo' became a term that doesn't describe a form of
> dancing. It doesn't really mean any type or style of dancing that
> could
> be identified without doubt just by looking.
>
> The few things that nuevo DOES mean is:
> - a structured way of building up your dancing (which rather a
> method of
> teaching of philosophy of learning) vs. building it up by imitation of
> sequences or moves only that was devised by the teacher (which
> probably
> never existed in a pure form in the first place)
> - a free, open way of thinking about tango as a dance, which means
> there
> is a POSSIBILITY of doing all moves possible by a couple in embrace to
> tango music vs. doing only a set of moves, form, or extent of moves
> and
> not doing others, as it is not in the tradition (of a certain teacher,
> style, area, community etc.)
> - goal in the structure of nuevo is to identify the simplest and
> smallest common technical elements that forms the basis of all and
> every
> tango style, that are intercompatible on a very wide domain of moves
> - another goal is to identify the ways to increase internal body
> awareness of these technical elements, to devise methods that make
> connection, communication between couple understandable for those
> who do
> not understand it yet
>
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango nuevo milonguero & Gavito mnemonics
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I once listened to a mnemonic that Gavito sang while teaching milonga steps, more or less it was
" si milonga quieres bailar , nunca tienes que parar ". If milonga you want to dance, you should never have to stop"
and there was another mnemonic for tango , also Gavito
"caminare para arriba los pasos en el abrazo, cada vez " . I will walk upwards the steps into the embrace, each time
I could open a school of tango nuevo milonguero with this, saying it is the secret mantra for tango :) But I wont :)
what Gavito really try to do was to light our burden , on the tango mnemonic he said " why do you walk as if you were in a mechanical ladder of a subway always downwards ?? think upwards. And walk each step into the embrace, one at a time, my boys , one at a time, why such a hurry.... you are not going to any place, you are just in the place, already arrived, give yourselves a break ...
alberto
--- El mar 27-oct-09, macfroggy@aol.com <macfroggy@aol.com> escribi?:
> De: macfroggy@aol.com <macfroggy@aol.com>
> Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente
> Para: tango-l@mit.edu
> Fecha: martes, 27 de octubre de 2009, 11:51 am
> It's all about the marketing.
>
> There's a new ad in the tango magazines here for classes in
> "Tango Nuevo Milonguero" !!!
>
> Now what in the heck is that?
> I'm sure the phrase will attract folks who want to be on
> the "cutting edge" and/or perhaps to dance both traditional
> and nuevo.
> I suppose the promoters want to appeal to everybody.
>
> Was it that long ago when there was only "tango?"
>
> cherie
> https://tangocherie.blogspot.com
>
>
>
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