5077 open and close embrace
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-l@mit.edu
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
Recently I have been approached by beginner level dancersasking me about close embrace dancing. It appears that in certain milongasdanced the USdancers believe that close embrace is the only way to dance tango. One interestingT-Shirt worn by a male dancer claimed: “Real Man Dance Close Embrace”The t-shirt was for a St. Louis Argentine Tango event.
I sincerely hope that this topic generate constructivecommentaries PLEASE no flaming.
I feel that both close and open embrace serve different andequally important functions. Shouldn’t we as dancers be comfortable andfluent in all aspects of the dance? If so, what are the benefits ofcriticizing and dismissing one style over the other?
If our archives contain past exchanges in this topic cansomeone provide me dates?
Sincerely,
Amaury
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:18:16 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: amaurycdsf@yahoo.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707211118qb6a1da2kaf02bf01246525c4@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/21/07, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
> Recently I have been approached by beginner level dancersasking me about
> close embrace dancing. It appears that in certain milongasdanced the
> USdancers believe that close embrace is the only way to dance tango. One
> interestingT-Shirt worn by a male dancer claimed: "Real Man Dance Close
> Embrace"The t-shirt was for a St. Louis Argentine Tango event.
>
>
>
> I sincerely hope that this topic generate constructivecommentaries
> PLEASE no flaming.
>
>
>
> I feel that both close and open embrace serve different andequally
> important functions. Shouldn't we as dancers be comfortable andfluent in
> all aspects of the dance? If so, what are the benefits ofcriticizing and
> dismissing one style over the other?
>
>
As I see it, there are several reasons for dancing tango in close embrace:
(1) Cultural Validity
At the milongas in Buenos Aires, essentially everyone is dancing tango in
close embrace. If there is any opening, it is momentary, e.g., to do turns.
although in the commomly danced 'milonguero style' even that is not done.
Dancing in open embrace, as is universally taught, mimics tango for the
stage, not tango for social dancing in Buenos Aires. If you dance tango in
an open embrace, the question you need to ask yourself is whether it is
important for you to dance tango as it is danced in the milongas of Buenos
Aires. It is certainly not essential to do so, because the norm outside
Buenos Aires is to dance tango at milongas in an open embrace. Thus, doing
the latter evolved social form is culturally valid for the culture in which
it is practiced. Historically, a similar transformation has occurred in the
evolution of the ballroom dances that use the name 'tango'.
One could argue that the handful of 'practicas' at Villa Malcolm and
elsewhere where nuevo tango is danced make dancing this style of dancing
culturally valid in Buenos Aires, but consider this comprises less than 10%
of tango venues and even a smaller percentage of dancers and that this is a
new phenomenon that has existed for less than a decade.
(2) Quality of Dance
Dancing tango in close embrace feels different than in open embrace. The
close embrace is more intimate and permits greater sharing of emotion. It
also allows for more subtle interpretation of the music (i.e., movements,
weight changes, rhythm changes are more subtle). However, open embrace
allows for greater outward dramatic expression through larger and more
conspicuous movements. Many dancers find this quality of open embrace tango
attractive, particularly in cultures where exhibition in social dance is
valued.
(3) Ease in Learning and Retention
Dancing tango in close embrace uses simpler movements and is less difficult
to learn. In open embrace separation between partners, larger movements, and
more frequent use of conspicuous decorative elements makes greater demands
on balance. In Buenos Aires one finds few people over 35 dancing teh open
embrace nuevo tango style. Almost everyone over 40 dances in close embrace
all of the time and there are a significant number of dancers in their 70s,
even some in their 80s dancing likewise.
- Another issue:
Mixing close and open embrace dancers at a milonga can often create conflict
over space. Open embrace dancers often see close embrace dancers as blocking
the line of dance. Close embrace dancers often see open embrace dancers are
offering potential for collision because of their larger movements, which
are also more difficult to control (balance issues, greater speed of
movement).
My opinion is that if you want to experience what tango has to offer as a
social dance that is unique, close embrace will provide greater emotional
connection and more possibilities for musical interpretation,
characteristics that exist in no other social dance.
Ron
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:48:29 -0300
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0707211148p6fc6e2evd99f51ce40687c60@mail.gmail.com>
'Open embrace' is, of course, an oxymoron. The proper term for the posture
is 'dance frame'.
However, 'open embrace' are being used by those who wish to make statements
like 'I dance Argentine Tango' without really having to learn the dance.
-Usually the same people who put Bryan Adams on the stereo and call it
'alternative tango'.
So; if you dance a dance where you utilize a dance frame and dance to pop or
rock, you are not dancing tango.
It's pretty simple, really.
Neil
On 7/21/07, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
> Recently I have been approached by beginner level dancersasking me about
> close embrace dancing. It appears that in certain milongasdanced the
> USdancers believe that close embrace is the only way to dance tango. One
> interestingT-Shirt worn by a male dancer claimed: "Real Man Dance Close
> Embrace"The t-shirt was for a St. Louis Argentine Tango event.
>
>
>
> I sincerely hope that this topic generate constructivecommentaries
> PLEASE no flaming.
>
>
>
> I feel that both close and open embrace serve different andequally
> important functions. Shouldn't we as dancers be comfortable andfluent in
> all aspects of the dance? If so, what are the benefits ofcriticizing and
> dismissing one style over the other?
>
>
>
> If our archives contain past exchanges in this topic cansomeone provide me
> dates?
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Amaury
>
>
>
> Finder tool.
>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:59:08 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Ron, I do respect you a lot and always valued your opinions, but I have to
disagree with you on almost all points you have made.
1. Cultural Validity "At the milongas in Buenos Aires, essentially everyone
is dancing tango in close embrace"
I haven't been to BA, but I have seen a lot of movies and documentaries and
photos including old ones, and everywhere open and close embrace are equally
presented. Including dance danced in 1910-1940 in Europe and America.
2. Quality of Dance. "The close embrace is more intimate and permits greater
sharing of emotion."
No, they are equal. Open embrace can be more intimate than close embrace.
How? Ask me personally. Emotions are transferred by artistic abilities.
3. Dancing tango in close embrace uses simpler movements and is less
difficult to learn.
Tango in close embrace is more difficult to learn ( if you do not stick to
absurd Naveira or Neo Tango over complicated open embrace concepts )
4. "open embrace allows for greater outward dramatic expression"
Absolutely not: Gavito. Close embrace dancing is more dramatic and attracts
attention of general crowd much more. ( If you know how to dance
attractively )
5. "In open embrace separation between partners, larger movements, and
more frequent use of conspicuous decorative elements makes greater demands
on balance."
Close embrace demands balance much more. Close embrace does not forgive
mistakes easily overlooked in open embrace.
6. Mixing close and open embrace dancers at a milonga can often create
conflict over space.
Absolutely not. Once can dance closely large, and open small.
But the energy is different, yes. Some music is better to dance in open,
some - in close. Music should dictate in what embrace to dance. To everyone.
7. "Open embrace dancers often see close embrace dancers as blocking the
line of dance."
Beginners block the line of dance no matter what embrace they dance in. I
agree that modern trend in close embrace shockingly promotes blocking the
line of dance - somebody teaches that they should not progress around the
floor or stop for too long. That is the flaw ( I hope temporary ) of
teaching and modern situation, not the dancing position.
==========================
Open and close embrace are equal in emotional connection and possibilities
for musical interpretation as well as stage impressions and technical
complexity if one wishes so or simplicity if situation demands.
True that they are different, but otherwise they are equal.
Igor Polk
ipolk@virtuar.com
510-582-8711
510-610-8711
www.virtuar.com/tango
ICQ 327627436
San Francisco
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:07:35 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-L@mit.edu
AMEN to absolutely everything in Igor's post.
Jake
DC
Igor Polk wrote:
> Ron, I do respect you a lot and always valued your opinions, but I have to
> disagree with you on almost all points you have made.
>
> 1. Cultural Validity "At the milongas in Buenos Aires, essentially everyone
> is dancing tango in close embrace"
>
> I haven't been to BA, but I have seen a lot of movies and documentaries and
> photos including old ones, and everywhere open and close embrace are equally
> presented. Including dance danced in 1910-1940 in Europe and America.
>
>
> 2. Quality of Dance. "The close embrace is more intimate and permits greater
> sharing of emotion."
>
> No, they are equal. Open embrace can be more intimate than close embrace.
> How? Ask me personally. Emotions are transferred by artistic abilities.
>
>
> 3. Dancing tango in close embrace uses simpler movements and is less
> difficult to learn.
>
> Tango in close embrace is more difficult to learn ( if you do not stick to
> absurd Naveira or Neo Tango over complicated open embrace concepts )
>
>
> 4. "open embrace allows for greater outward dramatic expression"
>
> Absolutely not: Gavito. Close embrace dancing is more dramatic and attracts
> attention of general crowd much more. ( If you know how to dance
> attractively )
>
>
> 5. "In open embrace separation between partners, larger movements, and
> more frequent use of conspicuous decorative elements makes greater demands
> on balance."
>
> Close embrace demands balance much more. Close embrace does not forgive
> mistakes easily overlooked in open embrace.
>
>
> 6. Mixing close and open embrace dancers at a milonga can often create
> conflict over space.
>
> Absolutely not. Once can dance closely large, and open small.
> But the energy is different, yes. Some music is better to dance in open,
> some - in close. Music should dictate in what embrace to dance. To everyone.
>
>
> 7. "Open embrace dancers often see close embrace dancers as blocking the
> line of dance."
>
> Beginners block the line of dance no matter what embrace they dance in. I
> agree that modern trend in close embrace shockingly promotes blocking the
> line of dance - somebody teaches that they should not progress around the
> floor or stop for too long. That is the flaw ( I hope temporary ) of
> teaching and modern situation, not the dancing position.
>
> ==========================
> Open and close embrace are equal in emotional connection and possibilities
> for musical interpretation as well as stage impressions and technical
> complexity if one wishes so or simplicity if situation demands.
>
> True that they are different, but otherwise they are equal.
>
> Igor Polk
> ipolk@virtuar.com
> 510-582-8711
> 510-610-8711
> www.virtuar.com/tango
> ICQ 327627436
> San Francisco
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Yes, we should be comfortable in all aspects of the dance.
(I'm reluctant to add fluidity to that sentence, because my
"fluency" might be your "boy, he has a limited vocabulary".)
It is unfortunate that people become so dogmatic about one
or another style. Who creates the climate that induces this
dogmatism? Well, I have a theory or two, but am reluctant to
point fingers.
One thought is that perhaps the T shirt was meant to be
humorous. In the country western world, there is a saying
that "real cowboys don't line dance". Well, real cowboys
can't line dance. And there is the humor of it.
I love dancing apilado close embrace. And sometimes my
enthusiasm for that style is perceived as a dismissal of other
styles. It is nowhere as easy to learn to do well, however,
than the apparently easy to do "close embrace".
Is another long dicussion of styles inevitable?
Steve
original post
I feel that both close and open embrace serve different andequally
important functions. Shouldn???t we as dancers be comfortable andfluent in
all aspects of the dance? If so, what are the benefits ofcriticizing
and dismissing one style over the other?
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:01:31 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707211301g2d32471ep5cdb4b96cbc43170@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/21/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> Ron, I do respect you a lot and always valued your opinions, but I have to
> disagree with you on almost all points you have made.
>
> 1. Cultural Validity "At the milongas in Buenos Aires, essentially
> everyone
> is dancing tango in close embrace"
>
> I haven't been to BA, but I have seen a lot of movies and documentaries
> and
> photos including old ones, and everywhere open and close embrace are
> equally
> presented. Including dance danced in 1910-1940 in Europe and America.
I would be interested in seeing film footage from the Golden Age showing
people dancing at the milongas.
In Buenos Aires in the 21st century, close embrace is the standard embrace.
Open embrace is rare outside of the nuevo clubs.
For the other points below, the differences can be attributed to personal
interpretation. However, many of my tango colleagues (including some from
Buenos Aires) share the perspective I've stated. However, I will agree that
close embrace is much less fogiving of mistakes. As for Gavito, he was
unique. He demonstrated more drama and passion because he was Gavito, not
because he opened or closed the embrace.
Ron
2. Quality of Dance. "The close embrace is more intimate and permits greater
> sharing of emotion."
>
> No, they are equal. Open embrace can be more intimate than close embrace.
> How? Ask me personally. Emotions are transferred by artistic abilities.
>
>
> 3. Dancing tango in close embrace uses simpler movements and is less
> difficult to learn.
>
> Tango in close embrace is more difficult to learn ( if you do not stick to
> absurd Naveira or Neo Tango over complicated open embrace concepts )
>
>
> 4. "open embrace allows for greater outward dramatic expression"
>
> Absolutely not: Gavito. Close embrace dancing is more dramatic and
> attracts
> attention of general crowd much more. ( If you know how to dance
> attractively )
>
>
> 5. "In open embrace separation between partners, larger movements, and
> more frequent use of conspicuous decorative elements makes greater demands
> on balance."
>
> Close embrace demands balance much more. Close embrace does not forgive
> mistakes easily overlooked in open embrace.
>
>
> 6. Mixing close and open embrace dancers at a milonga can often create
> conflict over space.
>
> Absolutely not. Once can dance closely large, and open small.
> But the energy is different, yes. Some music is better to dance in open,
> some - in close. Music should dictate in what embrace to dance. To
> everyone.
>
>
> 7. "Open embrace dancers often see close embrace dancers as blocking the
> line of dance."
>
> Beginners block the line of dance no matter what embrace they dance in. I
> agree that modern trend in close embrace shockingly promotes blocking the
> line of dance - somebody teaches that they should not progress around the
> floor or stop for too long. That is the flaw ( I hope temporary ) of
> teaching and modern situation, not the dancing position.
>
> ==========================
> Open and close embrace are equal in emotional connection and possibilities
> for musical interpretation as well as stage impressions and technical
> complexity if one wishes so or simplicity if situation demands.
>
> True that they are different, but otherwise they are equal.
>
> Igor Polk
> ipolk@virtuar.com
> 510-582-8711
> 510-610-8711
> www.virtuar.com/tango
> ICQ 327627436
> San Francisco
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:27:20 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707211327t3f8439f4r6c5b96e146161f65@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/21/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
>
> 2. Quality of Dance. "The close embrace is more intimate and permits
> greater
> sharing of emotion."
>
> No, they are equal. Open embrace can be more intimate than close embrace.
> How? Ask me personally. Emotions are transferred by artistic abilities.
Igor,
This is not meant to dispute you in particular, but your comments provide
the context for further elaboration.
Imagine this. You're at a milonga. The club is crowded and the temperature
is warm. The DJ is playing great music and the sound system is clear. (BA
milongas tend to play music more loudly than US milongas.) The tanda just
starting is Calo - Beron or Demare - Beron. For me it could also be Di Sarli
- Podesta, Troilo - Fiorentino, possibly even Tanturi - Castillo or Biagi -
Amor. You spot a women with warm smile. She responds to your invitation to
dance. As you embrace, she extends her arm over your shoulder
affectionately, drawing you closer to her gently. She places her cheek
firmly in contact with yours. As you dance, the emotion of the music
overcomes both of you. Your breathing becomes heavier, also more
synchronous. The two of you move and breathe as one. The heat of the club
and the passion of the dance releases sweat on your face. The sweat on your
cheeks intermingle. The scent of her perfume, now amplified, premeates your
nostrils. You forget where you are. You don't have to think where you are
going - the music and the space on the floor guides you. Time seems to stop.
You are at peace.
This experience cannot be achieved in open embrace. It can only be achieved
dancing tango in close embrace. It's something that makes tango a special
unique experience.
Ron
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:34:59 -0700
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970707211434w1d66612dt2261f046ba0cb687@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Ron and Igor,
I dance both close and open embrace although probably not nearly as well as
either of you (I have about two years total experience). Anyway, I
certainly have had some wonderful dances over the two years in both
embraces. Looking back, I don't think what made the special dances so
special was so much the embrace as it was the connection, the sharing, the
music, the other dancers, the energy, my emotion (and hers). If I look back
at what I would consider my best (meaning most pleasant) open embrace dance,
I really don't believe that particular experience would have been 'still
better yet', had we been in close embrace. On the other hand, i have had
many wonderful dances in close embrace. For me, my partners ability/desire,
the music, the floor conditions, all play a roll in which embrace I/we
chose. So - while I can easily believe for any one individual, close or open
may be superior or most pleasant, enlarging it to the tango community, I
believe/hope there is room, tolerance, enjoyment for all in their chosen
embrace.
I have never been to BA, but I guess if I were, and if most of the followers
there preferred close embrace, that would probably be my choice too. The
other leaders/couples on the floor are also very important to me. If I
thought leading a particular open embrace movement would be distracting to
them, I would not lead it. The dance is more than just me and my partner,
it is all of us on the floor together, being one.
Best of Luck to you both, and all reading this. The dance is big enough for
all styles, It is possible (I believe) to like both chamber music and rock
and roll. They don't have to be exclusive.
Ed
On 7/21/07, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On 7/21/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2. Quality of Dance. "The close embrace is more intimate and permits
> > greater
> > sharing of emotion."
> >
> > No, they are equal. Open embrace can be more intimate than close
> embrace.
> > How? Ask me personally. Emotions are transferred by artistic abilities.
>
>
>
> Igor,
>
> This is not meant to dispute you in particular, but your comments provide
> the context for further elaboration.
>
> Imagine this. You're at a milonga. The club is crowded and the temperature
> is warm. The DJ is playing great music and the sound system is clear. (BA
> milongas tend to play music more loudly than US milongas.) The tanda just
> starting is Calo - Beron or Demare - Beron. For me it could also be Di
> Sarli
> - Podesta, Troilo - Fiorentino, possibly even Tanturi - Castillo or Biagi
> -
> Amor. You spot a women with warm smile. She responds to your invitation to
>
> dance. As you embrace, she extends her arm over your shoulder
> affectionately, drawing you closer to her gently. She places her cheek
> firmly in contact with yours. As you dance, the emotion of the music
> overcomes both of you. Your breathing becomes heavier, also more
> synchronous. The two of you move and breathe as one. The heat of the club
> and the passion of the dance releases sweat on your face. The sweat on
> your
> cheeks intermingle. The scent of her perfume, now amplified, premeates
> your
> nostrils. You forget where you are. You don't have to think where you are
> going - the music and the space on the floor guides you. Time seems to
> stop.
> You are at peace.
>
> This experience cannot be achieved in open embrace. It can only be
> achieved
> dancing tango in close embrace. It's something that makes tango a special
> unique experience.
>
> Ron
>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:37:58 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-L@mit.edu
There is only one embrace. It becomes closer or more open depending
on the crowd, the music, the partner, the movement, etc. The embrace
accommodates the dance and the dancers.
The separation of styles in terms of "close" and "open" embrace came
>from the foreigners that began trying to make sense of tango in the
early 1980s. People noticed a clear difference between the social
embrace and the stage embrace when the show Tango Argentino roared
through the world in the 1980s. The open thing to which Neil
accurately refers to as a "frame" came from that
interpretation. Frame does exist in ballroom dances and is a part of
the vocabulary that was used by the foreigners in regard to Argentine tango.
In a real sense, what is called "open" social embrace now, began
outside of Argentina and is a result of a misunderstanding that stage
tango is not social tango. That distance between partners is much
needed on stage, just like the dreaded back step. Without the space
between partners, the dancers are invisible to the audience. On
stage, everything has to be made bigger. Without the back step,
dancers would eventually fall off the stage. So both of these
elements, dreaded by many social dancers, are much needed on
stage. But on a social dance floor, they are silly - they do not
serve the purpose of an intimate exchange that social tango calls
for. What goes on between partners in a dance is a secret. It is
private and is contained by the embrace. What goes on on stage is
entertainment and is meant for public to see.
So, open=stage, close=social. Artistic license is allowed on stage only.
There is another extreme called "milonguero" style. The word was
coined by Susana Miller in the early 90's to describe the classes
that she was offering, which were meant to give people a quick
ability to attend milongas. Since milongas are very crowded, many
were satisfied learning just a few movements and not much technique
and still be able to do something on a crowded dance floor. I know
this from a person who was there when the term was first
used. Milongueros never used that term. Each one had developed his
own style and was very proud of it. And each one was very different
>from the others.
Argentines always knew that there is only one tango embrace. This
embrace is danced very differently when they dance to D'Agostino than
when they dance to Pugliese. Many of the older dancers (milongueros,
if you wish) change the embrace ever so slightly to accommodate the
bigger music of Pugliese and they do change the movements of the
dance. But it is subtle.
Argentine dancers take great pride in their embrace. Each one takes
incredible care of how to embrace his/her partner. People have
mannerisms that are uniquely their own. Embrace is precious to
them. It is at the core of the dance. It is the soul of the dance
between the two partners. The "frame" configurations where a man is
holding a woman with his hands instead of arms hits at the pride of
Argentine male dancers because no self-respecting man would hold a
woman that way.
Embrace... tango embrace... Amaury, what have you done?! This
thing goes back to the culture, cultural values, men and women in a
culture and other powerful things. How men relate to women and women
to men determines whether they dance in a frame or in an embrace.
When beginner male AT students approach me with a question "Do you
think I can learn to dance this?", I don't tell them yes, if you can
walk, you can dance. Instead, I tell them that if they know how to
hold a woman in their arms, they might be able to learn this dance.
My very best regards to everyone,
Nina
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:42:03 -0700
From: Norman Tiber <natiber@charter.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Open and close embrace.
Comparing open & close embrace:
It seems to me, the decision regarding the embrace is made by each
couple. It is how they agree to communicate with each other.
Which ever they choose (or a combination), sets the tone for their
Tango together, including "intimacy."
If they choose open, that is the most intimate. If they choose close,
that is the most intimate.
Norm
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:47:57 EDT
From: C21DARI@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango.society@gmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Well said Ron!!!!
Finally somebody has described, in my opinion perfectly, the emotions
involved when a connection has been met between two people dancing to a tanda of
Calo, DiSarli or other with their so romantic Tangos !!!
I go definitely for the Apilado!!!!!!!
Dario
https://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 17:49:36 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: amaurycdsf@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
It's very interesting to read these types of threads. Generally I see a lot
of defensiveness and hostility from the so-called close embrace gurus. I've
never seen a single thread started by a regular salon style dancer attacking
the "apilado" style. The reverse is often true, I really don't know why some
people get so hung up on this subject. It's preposterous to keep harping on
the evils of "open embrace" and the goodness and light of "close embrace". I
found this clip of some dancers dancing a regular salon style and doing
firuletes and figures. These guys and their partners I belive are quite
genuine, authentic Argentine tango dancers. Anybody who would question their
bona fides needs to go back and re-start their tango education ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN617i5dB2s
It was a birthday party for Alberto Paz, the guys dancing are Mingo & Ester
Pugliese, Facundo & Kely posadas and Pupi Castello and Graciela.
Enjoy!
Oh, BTW, in case some of you are wondering, I dance promarily in a close
embrace style ;-)
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: amaurycdsf@yahoo.com
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
>Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
>
>st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
>Recently I have been approached by beginner level dancersasking me about
>close embrace dancing. It appears that in certain milongasdanced the
>USdancers believe that close embrace is the only way to dance tango. One
>interestingT-Shirt worn by a male dancer claimed: Real Man Dance Close
>EmbraceThe t-shirt was for a St. Louis Argentine Tango event.
>
>
>
>I sincerely hope that this topic generate constructivecommentaries PLEASE
>no flaming.
>
>
>
>I feel that both close and open embrace serve different andequally
>important functions. Shouldnt we as dancers be comfortable andfluent in
>all aspects of the dance? If so, what are the benefits ofcriticizing and
>dismissing one style over the other?
>
>
>
>If our archives contain past exchanges in this topic cansomeone provide me
>dates?
>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Amaury
>
>
>
>Finder tool.
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:03:59 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Manuel,
I have seen all of these dancers at numerous milongas over the last
10 years (with an exception of Ester Pugliese) and have seen none of
them dance like this when they are dancing socially. When they are
showing off their dance, sure! But not socially in the milongas.
I think this discussion has come around about 6-7 times in the last
decade or so.
Best,
Nina
At 03:49 PM 7/21/2007, WHITE 95 R wrote:
>It's very interesting to read these types of threads. Generally I
>see a lot of defensiveness and hostility from the so-called close
>embrace gurus. I've never seen a single thread started by a regular
>salon style dancer attacking the "apilado" style. The reverse is
>often true, I really don't know why some people get so hung up on
>this subject. It's preposterous to keep harping on the evils of
>"open embrace" and the goodness and light of "close embrace". I
>found this clip of some dancers dancing a regular salon style and
>doing firuletes and figures. These guys and their partners I belive
>are quite genuine, authentic Argentine tango dancers. Anybody who
>would question their bona fides needs to go back and re-start their
>tango education ;-)
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN617i5dB2s
>
>It was a birthday party for Alberto Paz, the guys dancing are Mingo
>& Ester Pugliese, Facundo & Kely posadas and Pupi Castello and Graciela.
>
>Enjoy!
>
>Oh, BTW, in case some of you are wondering, I dance promarily in a
>close embrace style ;-)
>
>
>
>visit our webpage
>www.tango-rio.com
>
>
>
>
>>From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com>
>>Reply-To: amaurycdsf@yahoo.com
>>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>>Subject: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
>>Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:44:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
>>Recently I have been approached by beginner level dancersasking me
>>about close embrace dancing. It appears that in certain
>>milongasdanced the USdancers believe that close embrace is the only
>>way to dance tango. One interestingT-Shirt worn by a male dancer
>>claimed: "Real Man Dance Close Embrace"The t-shirt was for a St.
>>Louis Argentine Tango event.
>>
>>
>>
>>I sincerely hope that this topic generate constructivecommentaries PLEASE
>>no flaming.
>>
>>
>>
>>I feel that both close and open embrace serve different andequally
>>important functions. Shouldn't we as dancers be comfortable
>>andfluent in all aspects of the dance? If so, what are the
>>benefits ofcriticizing and dismissing one style over the other?
>>
>>
>>
>>If our archives contain past exchanges in this topic cansomeone
>>provide me dates?
>>
>>
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Amaury
>>
>>
>>
>>new Car Finder tool.
>
>https://newlivehotmail.com
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:54:35 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: "'Tango Society of Central Illinois'" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Ron wrote:
?
Imagine this. You're at a milonga. The club is crowded and the temperature
is warm. ? You spot a women with?warm smile. She responds to your invitation
to dance. As you embrace, she extends her arm over your shoulder
affectionately, drawing you closer to her gently. She places her cheek
firmly in contact with yours. As you dance, the emotion of?the music
overcomes both of you. Your breathing becomes heavier, also more
synchronous. The two of you move and breathe as one. The heat of the club
and the passion of the dance releases sweat on your face. ?
-----
Ron, are you dancing or just standing hugging each other?
Of course, if you are stand standing or are doing clumsy 8-count by 8-count
it is hard to make open embrace as intimate as stand standing in close
embrace.
Igor.
?
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 01:21:50 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-l@mit.edu
When my female students are preparing for their first milonga, I always tell them one thing - while most men
are there to dance, there are a few who will be there to cuddle. Igor is definitely there to dance - not sure about
Ron. And, for you flamers out there, I don't mean that close embrace dancers are all cuddlers. Open embrace is easier
to learn for Asian beginners but close embrace should always be the final goal. And, by then, they can dance both.
I hesitate to call it the 'Real Tango' but close embrace is what they do in BsAs and that's always the determining factor
for me. Also, it just feels so damn good - the dancing I mean, not the cuddling :-).
Keith, HK
On Sun Jul 22 7:54 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>Ron wrote:
>?
>Imagine this. You're at a milonga. The club is crowded and the temperature
>is warm. ? You spot a women with?warm smile. She responds to your invitation
>to dance. As you embrace, she extends her arm over your shoulder
>affectionately, drawing you closer to her gently. She places her cheek
>firmly in contact with yours. As you dance, the emotion of?the music
>overcomes both of you. Your breathing becomes heavier, also more
>synchronous. The two of you move and breathe as one. The heat of the club
>and the passion of the dance releases sweat on your face. ?
>-----
>
>
>Ron, are you dancing or just standing hugging each other?
>
>Of course, if you are stand standing or are doing clumsy 8-count by 8-count
>it is hard to make open embrace as intimate as stand standing in close
>embrace.
>
>Igor.
>
>
>?
>
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:23:57 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Dear Keith and Nina,
I tend to agree with both of you...
The thing is, that the tango world is not just Buenos Aires. As this is an English language mailing list, it is quite obvious that most of the readers are also not focused on Buenos Aires either. This means that both as dancers and teachers we are the products of different cultures which may have a different path or concept for our dancing (using "dancing" instead of "tango" was intentional).
Most beginner dancers will be utterly unable to grasp most concepts that are obvious for "insiders"...like the embrace.
Europeans I know have a difficulty with this. Hungarians are less shy or distance-keeping than many citizens of other European nations (cultures), but still when I show women how I imagine an embrace to feel like, they are usually blushing or telling me that it is maybe too intimate for them. They do not feel comfortable when embracing someone like that. To be honest, even general close embrace causes issues for many (of course, they do not realize this, just make "panic" related mistakes that are the direct results of having a partner in front of them). While women are having problems to accept the closeness and enjoy it, men have a problems as well. It is usually that they are either paralyzed having women in their path within a step or so, or they are unable to "feel" the presence of her and take notice of her position, movements, comfort level etc.
These are all psychological issues and people are more willing to learn STEPS than to participate in a quasi-therapy session (even if it is disguised as tango). Because of this many will seek out those teachers who do not make them face their intimacy issues and just teach steps, technique and no emotional stuff. Of course, with time many will discover the emotional part for themselves, but they'll never learn how far (how strong) that may go. Of course, it helps if the teaching couple has a really strong connection (both in-dance and in life) which may be a model for their dancing.
I do not say that it can't be taught in the beginning though. Once I had a student from the US who had a really, really sweet embrace. She was a beginner with less than 6 months of experience. She was also a student of a religious school and was living in a monastery (with nuns) here in Hungary. She had very little technical knowledge in tango, but she was dancing with great enthusiasm. My kudos to her teachers in Colorado! :)
BTW: she was very fond of modern/alternative tango, tango fusion dancing (tango + swing and/or salsa) and was obviously not trained with authenticity in mind. She was a living proof that it is possible to teach someone the love of dancing, an intimate embrace (I believe her religious background would not entirely prepared her for that), the love of music without even mentioning authentic cultural habits, forcing technique or sets of steps.
Nevertheless, teaching the (quality) embrace is an issue and I would be very happy if any of you could share some methods/exercises to make people aware of the right embrace.
Cheers,
Aron
Sunday, July 22, 2007, 7:21:50 AM, you wrote:
Keith> When my female students are preparing for their first milonga,
Keith> I always tell them one thing - while most men
Keith> are there to dance, there are a few who will be there to
Keith> cuddle. Igor is definitely there to dance - not sure about
Keith> Ron. And, for you flamers out there, I don't mean that close
Keith> embrace dancers are all cuddlers. Open embrace is easier
Keith> to learn for Asian beginners but close embrace should always
Keith> be the final goal. And, by then, they can dance both.
Keith> I hesitate to call it the 'Real Tango' but close embrace is
Keith> what they do in BsAs and that's always the determining factor
Keith> for me. Also, it just feels so damn good - the dancing I mean, not the cuddling :-).
Keith> Keith, HK
Keith> On Sun Jul 22 7:54 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>>Ron wrote:
>>Imagine this. You're at a milonga. The club is crowded and the temperature
>>is warm. ? You spot a women with warm smile. She responds to your invitation
>>to dance. As you embrace, she extends her arm over your shoulder
>>affectionately, drawing you closer to her gently. She places her cheek
>>firmly in contact with yours. As you dance, the emotion of the music
>>overcomes both of you. Your breathing becomes heavier, also more
>>synchronous. The two of you move and breathe as one. The heat of the club
>>and the passion of the dance releases sweat on your face. ?
>>-----
>>Ron, are you dancing or just standing hugging each other?
>>Of course, if you are stand standing or are doing clumsy 8-count by 8-count
>>it is hard to make open embrace as intimate as stand standing in close
>>embrace.
>>Igor.
--
Cheers,
Ecsedy mailto:aron@milonga.hu
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:46:07 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707220546o1e448237ncad5fa9f7c0b81cf@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/21/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> Ron wrote:
>
> Imagine this. You're at a milonga. The club is crowded and the temperature
> is warm. ? You spot a women withwarm smile. She responds to your
> invitation
> to dance. As you embrace, she extends her arm over your shoulder
> affectionately, drawing you closer to her gently. She places her cheek
> firmly in contact with yours. As you dance, the emotion ofthe music
> overcomes both of you. Your breathing becomes heavier, also more
> synchronous. The two of you move and breathe as one. The heat of the club
> and the passion of the dance releases sweat on your face. ?
> -----
>
>
> Ron, are you dancing or just standing hugging each other?
With the music I described (Calo, Di Sarli, some Troilo, some Tanturi),
which does not have the constant drive of, for example (almost all)
D'arienzo [exception: El Cachafaz], there are moments available for pauses,
extended suspensions. This is part of the dance. However, the pause is only
for a few seconds and carefully spaced throughout the dance to match the
phrasing of the music. The rest of the time (most of the time) you move ...
and still feel this intense connection.
Ron
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:13:11 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>, " Ecsedy ?ron " <aron@milonga.hu>
Hi Aron,
This one is easy and I've learned it from lots of direct experience. Firstly, I wouldn't even try to "teach" a woman how to
embrace a man - the fact is she already knows how to do it and if I try to "teach" it, she'll just get embarassed. Instead,
towards the end of an 8-week beginner course, I'll dance with her. I won't tell her what I'm doing, I'll just embrace her and
dance. In almost every case, the close embrace comes naturally. Of course, it's easy for me because I'm her teacher and she
trusts me completely. Maybe at that time, she still can't do it with another man but at least she knows the feeling. Teaching the
guys to dance close is a whole different thing and much more difficult. I would also add that, during our classes, my partner
and I always demostrate the figures in close embrace, but we tell our students they don't have to do it that way until they feel
comfortable. We then also demonstrate it in open embrace, which, to me, means 1 - 2 inches between the chests. Close
embrace is contact at the chests. At the beginning, we also demonsrate with a 6-inch space at the chests and we
tell them this is NOT Tango.
Another interesting thing, and this also applies to women who are not my students - after I've danced with them in close
embrace, THAT'S ALL THEY WANT TO DO - with me anyway :-). Women love close embrace and I don't understand why so
many guys just don't get that.
Keith, HK
On Sun Jul 22 19:23 , Ecsedy ?ron sent:
>Nevertheless, teaching the (quality) embrace is an issue and I would be very happy if any of you could share some methods/exercises to make people aware of the right embrace.
>
>Cheers,
>Aron
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:49:03 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hi Keith,
Keith wrote:
> Women love close embrace and I don't understand why so many guys just don't get that.
You're not the only one making broad generalizations around this topic
(pun intended), but I wonder why the bad habit has persisted.
I mostly dance close when I'm out socially, but I've had several women
ask me to dance open & lead more elaborate figures. I mean women who are
fantastic in a close embrace. (They're good open too.)
To say that "women want this" or "women want that" is bizarre, in my
view, even if it's a woman making the claim. We treat women as
individuals when we dance... so why do we write of them as ciphers? Some
women love dancing open and do it well. In fact, I'd say that in my own
observation, 3/4 of hard-line close dancers (who dogmatically oppose
dancing open) are men, not women. And I'm talking about long-term
community members.
All these generalizations do is close doors for people, especially
people now learning. Those of us who are teachers ought to be more
responsible with our language than to dictate preferences, no?
Jake
DC
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:01 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] open and close embrace
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hmm, I better pop this balloon before someone mistakes it for
something substantial.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:59:08 -0700, "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
said:
> Ron, I do respect you a lot and always valued your opinions, but I have
> to disagree with you on almost all points you have made.
>
> 1. Cultural Validity "At the milongas in Buenos Aires, essentially
> everyone is dancing tango in close embrace"
Which is a true staement if you avoid Villa Malcolm and maybe
Sunderland and other some other milongas away from downtown.
On the other hand, check out the video of Finito on Youtube
(from the 80's I think). Close or open? I say close.
> I haven't been to BA, but I have seen a lot of movies and
> documentaries and photos including old ones, and everywhere
> open and close embrace are equally presented. Including dance
> danced in 1910-1940 in Europe and America.
Not to nitpick, but are you avoiding bias? Consider these
ideas:
a. Upper-class control of the media in Argentina dictated
that the open embrace dance they favored was more worthy
of recording.
b. Your evidence is a poor sample of what's available.
Moreover, does tango 1910 to 1940 in Europe and America
really count in terms of cultural validity? Many would
heartily disagree that the history of International
Standard and American Ballroom Tango bear on the question,
myself included.
Finally, verbal histories passed on from Famous Old Farts
Now Dead indicate that the closeness of the embrace has
always been a vital concern in BA. Tomas Howlin once related
a charming explanation from one of his teachers as to why
the cruzada enjoyed immediate popularity from the time its
possibilities began being actively explored in the mid to
late 30's--it seems the men enjoyed the even tighter embrace
they could obtain with it. Damn those cuddlers anyway!
> 2. Quality of Dance. "The close embrace is more intimate and permits
> greater sharing of emotion."
>
> No, they are equal. Open embrace can be more intimate than close embrace.
> How? Ask me personally. Emotions are transferred by artistic abilities.
Many theories treat emotional experience as something
built on top of our systems for physical sensation.
For instance, we use terms like having a crush, being
crushed, tongue-tied, breathless, flying, up or down
to convey emotional states, all of which correlate to
actual physical sensations.
So it makes sense that the far more mammalian experience
of close embrace might disinhibit our emotional centers
in ways open embrace does not.
Artistic abilities are certainly more than mere technical
skills, but you need emotional content before you can
communicate it, yes?
> 3. Dancing tango in close embrace uses simpler movements and is less
> difficult to learn.
>
> Tango in close embrace is more difficult to learn (if you do not stick
> to absurd Naveira or Neo Tango over complicated open embrace concepts )
Good, realtime feedback is the best situation for rapid
learning. Close embrace far excels open in this regard.
You can slime your way through a tanda in open embrace and
convince yourself you did great much more easily in open
embrace.
You would have a much harder time lying to yourself about
the quality of your close embrace dancing, because many
times the amount of body sensation is telling you how well
or badly things are going.
So the learning curve is steeper, but you have much more
to work with, so progress should be faster.
> 4. "open embrace allows for greater outward dramatic expression"
>
> Absolutely not: Gavito. Close embrace dancing is more dramatic and
> attracts attention of general crowd much more. (If you know how to
> dance attractively)
Gavito with Maria Plazaola, CITA 2003 DVD, Side A, second half.
He spends a good part of that song leading high velocity turns
with many sacadas, lapizes, etc in open embrace. It's not any
less dramatic or emotional than the initial moments in close
embrace.
What's attention getting is outstanding dancing in any embrace.
There's so very little of it.
> 5. "In open embrace separation between partners, larger movements,
> and more frequent use of conspicuous decorative elements makes
> greater demands on balance."
Nailing weight transfers over a distance of 48 inches/120cm
requires 4 times the power and twice the precision in timing
a 24 inch/60 cm weight transfer needs. As movement size goes
up, physical demands quickly ramp up beyond the average human's
physical limitations.
This is high school physics:
power = force / time
force = mass * acceleration
velocity = acceleration * time
distance = velocity * time
Is it any wonder that ex-ballerinas and modern dancers dominate
the current crop of female stage dancers (we can discuss if
they actually all dance high quality tango some other time)?
> Close embrace demands balance much more. Close embrace does not
> forgive mistakes easily overlooked in open embrace.
See my response to item 3 above. The unforgiving nature of
close embrace is precisely what causes rapid improvement in
close embrace dancers.
> 6. Mixing close and open embrace dancers at a milonga can often
> create conflict over space.
>
> Absolutely not. Once can dance closely large, and open small.
> But the energy is different, yes. Some music is better to dance
> in open, some - in close. Music should dictate in what embrace
> to dance. To everyone.
Ridiculous. You seem to say the matter is beyond choice. Claiming
the music dictates the embrace, much less anything else is complete
and utter bullshit. The music is an external circumstance, your
reaction is what dictates your personal choices in embrace and indeed
all other behaviors. And your reaction is nothing more than a matter
mental conditioning, definitely a matter of personal choice.
I can hear in my mind your defense in a personal injury case, "Your
Honor, the facts of the case are not in dispute. However, it's all
the fault of the orchestra leader Osvaldo Pugliese--his music aroused
such passion in me, that at a crucial moment in the song 'Zum', I
had no choice but to lead my partner in a high round kick, making
her Comme il Faut stilleto heel impacted plaintiff's breast, causing
her implant to rupture. Therefore I submit a motion to dismiss with
prejudice, and invite plaintiff to join me in a class-action suit
against Mr. Pugliese's estate."
Also, just because they can dance small in open frame (I saw Oscar
Mandagaran do this one night at Gricel), does not mean open frame
dancers typically do. Granted, I've never danced east of Urbana,
Illinois or west of Denver, so I don't know for a fact that open
embrace dancers are more disciplined on the coasts, but I have a
very hard time imagining it's markedly different.
Mind you, I'm not dissing you for your choices in embrace, but I
say you should at least take responsibility for them.
> 7. "Open embrace dancers often see close embrace dancers as blocking
> the line of dance."
>
> Beginners block the line of dance no matter what embrace they dance
> in.
Agreed, while also noting this condition passes rather quickly.
There is a much larger population, "old-timers that suck" we
should acknowledge. A classic example is the guy that takes all
of 2 bars to set up a gancho, and then improves the return on his
investment of time by leading one or 2 more over the next bar,
then wastes another entire bar disengaging.
> I agree that modern trend in close embrace shockingly promotes
> blocking the line of dance - somebody teaches that they should not
> progress around the floor or stop for too long. That is the flaw
> (I hope temporary) of teaching and modern situation, not the dancing
> position.
Another gargantuan crock of manure:
A. Open embrace dancers see close embrace dancers as blocking
the line of dance because they seem on average inclined to take
longer strides.
B. Just who is this somebody teaching close embrace dancers to
block the line of dance and not progress around the floor?
C. Perhaps you confuse the notion of not being in a hurry to
get around the floor with deliberately obstructing the line of
dance. Not being in a hurry would include all the mannerly
things we should be doing, like: not passing, going all the way
into corners, not breathing down the neck of the guy in front
of you and so on.
D. What actually gets people around the dance floor in a hurry,
actually has nothing to do with the embrace or stride length.
It's the extent to which the interpretation of the music is
shared such that couples all move forward down the line of
dance at the same time. Otherwise, we are forced to wait for
the space to open up for us, which opens the space for the guy
behind and so on until the space comes around again. The US
being the land of rugged individualism, I see no alternative
to patience at hand.
E. Finally a counterexample: I once saw an open embrace dancer
billing herself as "one of the best female leads in the country"
block the line of dance so badly that half the room was empty
in front of her ... one more reason teaching at milongas deserves
the nuclear option. Her turns sure were pretty though.
> ==========================
> Open and close embrace are equal in emotional connection and
> possibilities for musical interpretation as well as stage
> impressions and technical complexity if one wishes so or
> simplicity if situation demands.
The one statement I agree with entirely in the entire post.
> True that they are different, but otherwise they are equal.
Apples and oranges are different, but otherwise they are equal.
Best regards,
Christopher
