1741 orchestras and moves of the milongueros
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:56:41 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: orchestras and moves of the milongueros
Sergio wrote:
"Milonguero is a beautiful, gratifying style, it is easier to learn than
salon, it gets you dancing on the floor in a shorter time, it is preferred
to dance to certain orchestras, . . ."
I have danced with milongueros to D'Arienzo, Biagi, Calo, Troilo, Di Sarli,
Di Angelis, D'Agostino, Rodriguez, Canaro, Pugliese, Laurenz and Tanturi. I
don't understand what Sergio is talking about. Milongueros dance to all the
orchestra recordings that are danceable.
Sergio continued:
"In my opinion it does not matter if you are an old or a new milonguero the
moves are:
Walking forward, two slow steps, followed by three steps: one forward (lt)
two side to side (rt - lt). A (lt) slightly backwards to restart the
sequence. Some balanceo, side to side waiting for space to appear. Back
ochos, walk to step #4 of the base and come back for an ocho cortado. Turn
right, turn left. Some turning rocking step. One isolated sacada on the way
to a right turn. Walking forward with little syncopations. You could do a
calesita. Walking forward with rocking steps, change of front."
Sergio, where in the world did you come up with this formula of milonguero
moves? I dance only with milongueros, and none of them do what you have
described. Each one dances differently. They don't do any sequences, and
certainly not rocking steps. With several I never dance an ocho cortado. I
am still on a tango high after dancing a few hours ago with Hector Delgado
(73) to Di Sarli and Pugliese, valses with Jorge, Troilo with Mario, milonga
con traspie with Pedro Sanchez, and to Miguel Calo with Ismael Heljalil
(73).
Pichi de Buenos Aires
www.totango.net/milongueros.html
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:28:30 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Orchestras and moves of the milongueros
Janis says:
Sergio wrote:
"Milonguero is a beautiful, gratifying style, it is easier to learn than
salon, it gets you dancing on the floor in a shorter time, it is preferred
to dance to certain orchestras, . . ."
"I have danced with milongueros to D'Arienzo, Biagi, Calo, Troilo, Di Sarli,
Di Angelis, D'Agostino, Rodriguez, Canaro, Pugliese, Laurenz and Tanturi. I
don't understand what Sergio is talking about. Milongueros dance to all the
orchestra recordings that are danceable."
What I meant is that Salon Style, danced with long steps feels better when
danced to slow music such as Di Sarli, Pugliese, or somewhat faster
orchestras like Calo. Milonguero on the other hand is more suitable than
salon to dance to faster music such as D'Arienzo, Biagi, Laurenz, etc. I
agree that you can dance any style to any music. I agree that you can dance
milonguero to all the orchestras that you mentioned above.
"Certain orchestras" could be the ones you mentioned above.
"Sergio, where in the world did you come up with this formula of milonguero
moves? I dance only with milongueros, and none of them do what you have
described. Each one dances differently. "
I was not describing any sequence, or formula I was talking about
independent, isolated moves that are chained in different ways by every
dancer. I am sure that the milongueros that you dance with walk, turn right,
turn left, some may do a sacada or a calesita, most will do balanceo, while
waiting for space to move, etc. Or perhaps they invented some new moves that
I have not yet seen. So somebody that you dance with does not do an ocho
cortado, big deal! Do you mean that nobody does ochos cortados?
I described moves that I isolated at the milongas. Some milongueros use
certain moves, others use different ones. The repertoire in general is the
one I described. I take for granted that every one dances differently. Some
only walk, others do back ochos and turn left. etc.
Some use rocking steps to turn or while walking or while they change front,
by rocking steps I mean what is known as cunitas or gardelitos.
I try to use vocabulary that may be easily understood by the larger number
of people.
I cannot believe that you thought I suggested that a hundred couples at any
given milonga were doing a certain sequence or formula as by me described at
the same time and repeated again and again .
As Barbara Garvey, very wisely says, the more we explain the less we
understand....
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:22:20 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: orchestras and moves of the milongueros
Sergio wrote:
>Milonguero is a beautiful, gratifying style,..., it
>is preferred to dance to certain orchestras,
Pichi commented:
>I have danced with milongueros to D'Arienzo, Biagi, Calo,
>Troilo, Di Sarli, Di Angelis, D'Agostino, Rodriguez, Canaro,
>Pugliese, Laurenz and Tanturi. ... Milongueros dance to
>all the orchestra recordings that are danceable.
Sergio replied:
>What I meant is that Salon Style, danced with long steps
>feels better when danced to slow music such as Di Sarli,
>Pugliese, or somewhat faster orchestras like Calo.
>Milonguero on the other hand is more suitable than salon
>to dance to faster music such as D'Arienzo, Biagi, Laurenz,
>etc. I agree that you can dance any style to any music.
Sergio and Pichi are using the term "milonguero" somewhat differently. As
is common in the United States, Sergio seems to be using the term more
narrowly to describe the elements of tango used by people like Tete,
Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and some of their students to dance to faster
tango music . Pichi is using the term more broadly to mean how
milongueros dance.
Given these two uses of the term milonguero, we need to be careful about
how we interpret what we read and hear. For instance, a person could use
the term milonguero broadly to argue the tango of the milongueros is the
best/only way to determine authenticity in social dancing. Then, the same
person could use the term milonguero narrowly to say they are teaching
milonguero-style tango. Together these statements might seem imply that
the person is teaching the only authentic way of dancing tango socially.
But, it is the listener or reader who has missed the shift in usage. As
Pichi, Rick McGarrey and Barbara Garvey have pointed out, there are a wide
variety of individual styles that are danced by milongueros.
In addition, what is meant in the United States by milonguero-style tango
need not reflect the improvisational nature of social tango. A person can
use the elements of tango identified as milonguero-style in the United
States to create step patterns for teaching. The result is that
milonguero-style tango becomes as an accurate a term as "clover honey",
which according to the USDA allows the bees to be fed sugar water.
I might note that Tom Stermitz has used Milonguero, not Milonguero-Style
to describing the Labor Day TangoFest in Denver. The emphasis is on
social dancing to a wide range of danceable tango music--not on a
particular collection of dance elements.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:18:50 -0800
From: redfox@ALASKA.NET
Subject: Re: orchestras and moves of the milongueros
> As is common in the United States, Sergio seems to be using the term [milonguero] more
> narrowly to describe the elements of tango used by people like Tete,
> Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and some of their students to dance to
> faster tango music .
This is a perfect example of why the discussion about styles is so ridiculous to me. Cacho Dante's favorite orchestra, BY FAR, is Pugliese, and more specifically, Pugliese from the 50's & 60's. There's no question about this, I've sat in Robert Hauk's basement for hours with Cacho talking about the music and the dance. I guess you can say that I'm a student of both Susana and Cacho, and my favorite orchestra is Di Sarli, more specifically his virtuoso 50's recordings. I love to get a dense, thick walk going, and this is when I most prefer an apilado embrace.
Let's give up on this useless American drive to pigeon-hole everything about tango for our own convenience and realize that tango is a dance between 2 people that brings out their own way of movement, character, and musical expression.
The only thing I have observed is that the really good dancers tend to prefer the really good dance music from the orchestras Pichi listed, and that these dancers have given themselves the freedom to express the music in their own personal way without worrying about what style they're dancing.
Dan
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:34:27 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: orchestras and moves of the milongueros
Previously I wrote:
>>Sergio and Pichi are using the term "milonguero" somewhat differently.
As is common in the United States, Sergio seems to be using the term more
narrowly to describe the elements of tango used by people like Tete,
Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and some of their students to dance to faster
tango music . Pichi is using the term more broadly to mean how
milongueros dance.<<
Dan Boccia responded:
>This is a perfect example of why the discussion about
>styles is so ridiculous to me. ...
I am simply trying to clarify differences in how people are using the
language.
An interesting thing to consider is the origin of the label
milonguero-style tango. It is my understanding, perhaps incorrect, that
Susana Miller began using this label during her first tour of the United
States to mean the specific elements of tango that she teaches. Maybe it
was a simplification on her part, and maybe she was misinterpreted to some
degree, but it does seem to be a labeling that has stuck fairly well.
For instance, Tom Stermitz offers the following comments on Susana
Miller's webpage: "We just finished a week of workshops with Susana
Miller, the well-known teacher of the 'milonguero-style.' ... Susana
makes a clear distinction between 'close-embrace', and 'milonguero'.
Close-embrace can be many styles, perhaps salon-style danced closely.
Milonguero is more specific, meaning a close, on the body style, using
ocho cortados, little pivoting of the woman's feet and a lot of triplet
rhythms." <https://www.susanamiller.com.ar/editorialing.htm>.
In addition, Robert Hauk's dance bio on the Portland webpage starts with
the statement, "Robert has become one of the most highly-regarded
'milonguero' (close embrace) style dancers in the Northwest."
<https://home.europa.com/~walsup/tango/teachers.html#robert>
In a posting to Tango-A, Robert Hauk and Cacho Dante are described as
teaching milonguero-style tango in Cleveland in September
<https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-A/2003/msg00683.html>.
I do quite agree with Dan's comments:
>[R]eally good dancers tend to prefer the really good dance music
>from the orchestras Pichi listed, and that these dancers have
>given themselves the freedom to express the music in their own
>personal way without worrying about what style they're dancing.
These dancers have gone beyond dancing someone else's style to dancing
their own.
Many happy dances to all,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:00:10 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: orchestras and moves of the milongueros
Hello list,
> Sergio wrote:
> >Milonguero is a beautiful, gratifying style,..., it
> >is preferred to dance to certain orchestras,
>
> Pichi commented:
> >I have danced with milongueros to D'Arienzo, Biagi, Calo,
> >Troilo, Di Sarli, Di Angelis, D'Agostino, Rodriguez, Canaro,
> >Pugliese, Laurenz and Tanturi. ... Milongueros dance to
> >all the orchestra recordings that are danceable.
>
> Sergio replied:
> >What I meant is that Salon Style, danced with long steps
> >feels better when danced to slow music such as Di Sarli,
> >Pugliese, or somewhat faster orchestras like Calo.
> >Milonguero on the other hand is more suitable than salon
> >to dance to faster music such as D'Arienzo, Biagi, Laurenz,
> >etc. I agree that you can dance any style to any music.
>
> Stephen Brown wrote:
> Sergio and Pichi are using the term "milonguero" somewhat differently. As
> is common in the United States, Sergio seems to be using the term more
> narrowly to describe the elements of tango used by people like Tete,
> Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and some of their students to dance to faster
> tango music . Pichi is using the term more broadly to mean how
> milongueros dance.
Stephen makes a very important point here, and one we should all take to
heart when these discussions come up.
Still, I am going to second what Pichi says, in a way. I will make it
clear at first that I mean dancers I have seen who dance in an apilado
frome. Sergio has not even begun to describe what is possible, or what
I have seen danced at the milongas of Buenos Aires, and what I know from
my own experience. It could be possible to read Sergio's comment to
mean that not much is possible in an apilado frame (which is what he
seems to mean when he says 'milonguero'), and to open many possibilities
you need to dance what he calls a salon frame, which he has described.
In an apilado frame there are many ways to turn right, many ways to turn
left, many possibilities for sacadas, and boleos, many ways to do ochos,
both forward and back ochos. The combinatorical possibilities are
dizzying. No one dancer does all of these things, and many have very
individual ways of doing what they do. At first when you watch them it
might look like they only have a few (maybe 4 or 5) steps in their
vocabulary. Then as you watch (and of course if you talk with the
women) you see that each time they do a step it is different than the
last time, the overall structure may be similar, but the step was bent
to the music. These old guys have forgotten more steps than any of us
have learned.
When we watch a milonguero we are seeing the result of a lifetime spent
on the dance floor. The moves have a subtlety that must be seen (or
better felt) to be appreciated. At first all of this might look simple,
and then after you spend a little time trying to figure out something
one of them does, you begin to realize that you will dance for years to
get there.
Ismael Heljalil, who Pichi mentioned is such a one. I remember seeing
him dance. For me it was as though there were no other dancers on the
floor. His dance is elegent, smooth, and at first it looks simple. But
watching him there is a quality of movement that is rare and beautiful.
Every movement and every breath is with the music. I saw him doing what
looked like a simple little step, and I couldn't figure it out for the
longest time, and it has taken me years to learn to lead it reliably.
It looked like a nothing, and in a way it is, but it is the way he does
nothing that is hard to get.
There is no style of argentine tango that is simple. Every style of
argentine tango will take you years to master. Done well every styleof
argentine tango is beautiful. Done poorly every style of argentine
tango is ugly.
Dance your miles!
Robert
