4858 Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
To: tango-L@mit.edu
The following is not meant to start flame-wars, so read no
further if you?re inclined to find controversy where none
is intended.
In the article, Fabian commented that he started CITA
because there were tango festivals going on worldwide but
not in BsAs. What I found particularly interesting was
that his comment clearly showed that he was influenced by
what was happening outside of BsAs. (For obvious reasons,
there is less of a need for a festival in BsAs than there
is in other countries.) I also realized that the teachers
at CITA are quite accustomed to festivals from their
experiences in other countries. Argentine tango teachers
are also doing their own festivals now in BsAs (Pulpo?s
Tango Week, Milongueando) and are actively recruiting as
they tour. This is also relatively new.
Argentine teachers who tour have also become accustomed to
more relaxed customs. Among them:
- asking a person verbally to dance,
- women asking men to dance,
- same sex dancing at milongas,
- women teachers.
No teacher that I know of has an issue with any of these.
When the teachers are back in BsAs, I?m sure they follow
the local codes there. However, it will be interesting to
see what happens over time as these teachers influence
generations of tangueros, who become the new milongueros.
Let?s look at women teachers in BsAs. From what I
understand, women who teach without a male partner are not
held in the same regard as they would be in other
countries. Graciela Gonzalez got a lot of flack when she
began teaching a class for women. I recall a workshop in
Cleveland a few years ago with Milena Plebs and Ezequiel
Farfaro, who had only been dancing for about 5 years at
that point. I had expected Milena to do most of the
teaching, but to my surprise, Ezequiel did the teaching. A
more observant friend explained to me later that Milena was
feeding Ezequiel what to say next while people were busy
with the material. He thought it was to preserve that
Argentine machismo. In the U.S., it doesn?t phase people
to have a woman teacher as the main guest for a weekend of
workshops. Perhaps this outside support has encouraged
more Argentine women to teach as the main teacher.
So it is an interesting relationship, one in which the
outside world is influencing what is happening in BsAs
indirectly. Has those living in BsAs noticed any other
changes due to how tango is being taught or danced
elsewhere?
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:25:40 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
I am sure a man have a lot to tell to student women.
And no women can tell them what a man can. Besides he can lead them.
( Obviously any embellishment does not make sense if a man does not lead or
feel it ).
The same goes for men-students - woman teacher.
It seems to me both women and men have a lot of different things to tell to
both men and women.
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
Igor, that is true. However, the point in my post was that
Argentine women teachers without a regular male partner
seem to be treated with less respect in BsAs than elsewhere
until recently. One teacher credits Susana Miller for
opening doors for Argentine women to teach the man's part.
Comments?
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> I am sure a man have a lot to tell to student women.
> And no women can tell them what a man can. Besides he can
> lead them.
> ( Obviously any embellishment does not make sense if a
> man does not lead or
> feel it ).
>
> The same goes for men-students - woman teacher.
>
> It seems to me both women and men have a lot of different
> things to tell to
> both men and women.
>
> Igor Polk
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:09:35 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
Hi Everybody,
First of all, an apology to those of you who, after reading this message,
might consider me to be an out-dated, chauvinistic old fool. But I guess
I'm just not sufficiently politically correct, and I'm certainly way to old,
to accept that a woman can teach a man how to dance Argentine Tango as well
as a man. A man learning Tango needs his teacher to be a role model - how
can a woman be a role model for a man? BTW, exactly the same is true in
Ballroom dancing.
Having said that, Igor is right that women and men have a lot of different
things to tell to both men and women and I've known a lot of great Tango
teachers who were women.
So of course a woman can teach a man how to dance Tango; she can teach him
the steps, the embrace, the music and she can even teach how to lead. And
to many people that might be enough. But, personally, I don't think the poor
guy's dance would end up looking anything like the Tango that I know and
love - which is danced with the style, elegance, machismo and attitude of
the Argentine man. I know a lot of you refuse to accept it, but the fact is
that the Argentine man dances Tango in a completely different way to the
American or anyone else who doesn't live, or at least has spent a lot of
time learning Tango in Argentina.
And why is that? Well, we recently had Tom Stermitz, a respected American
Tango teacher, telling us that learning Tango steps is more important than
learning how to walk correctly, that learning how to walk correctly is too
difficult and too much of a distraction, so we should just use a 'sidewalk
walk' to make the whole thing a lot easier. Some people agreed, but try
telling it to a Argentine. Every single Argentine teacher I've had has
stressed the same thing - the walk is the basis of good Tango and you can
judge a man's dance by the standard of his walk.
So yes, a woman can teach a man a lot about Tango - but only after he's
learned how to dance Tango, or at least is in the process of learning Tango,
>from a man. So women, please stick to teaching other women and leave the
guys alone. Unless you want them dancing like sissy Americans, rather than
the macho Argentine.
Since Trini's subject is 'outside influences' I'd say they can only be
detrimental to Tango. Please, particularly you Americans, please stop
thinking that you know better than the Argentines and that you can improve
Tango. You can change it, but you can't improve it. Please just accept that.
Keith, from Hong Kong [not the other one :-)]
On Sun Mar 25 13:28 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>Igor, that is true. However, the point in my post was that
>Argentine women teachers without a regular male partner
>seem to be treated with less respect in BsAs than elsewhere
>until recently. One teacher credits Susana Miller for
>opening doors for Argentine women to teach the man's part.
>Comments?
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>--- Igor Polk ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
>> I am sure a man have a lot to tell to student women.
>> And no women can tell them what a man can. Besides he can
>> lead them.
>> ( Obviously any embellishment does not make sense if a
>> man does not lead or
>> feel it ).
>>
>> The same goes for men-students - woman teacher.
>>
>> It seems to me both women and men have a lot of different
>> things to tell to
>> both men and women.
>>
>> Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 11:52:45 -0600
From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
"Unless you want them dancing like sissy Americans, rather than the macho
Argentine."
SAY WHAT????
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:04:14 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
Trini:
"the point in my post was that
Argentine women teachers without a regular male partner
seem to be treated with less respect in BsAs .."
I came a long way to understand that if something happening, it is happening
for a reason, especially if it is a custom.
Instead of cheaply criticizing Argentineans that they do not treat women
with the same "respect", try to understand why.
I believe if they do, there is a reason for that.
And I'd better look for the reason.
And the reason is ( and that was discussed by Keith of HK ) that a man can
teach both men and women a good tango. A woman have much more difficulties
of doing it. Women are not men and this is it, that is how nature put it.
Only a man can teach other men how to be a man in Argentine Tango. And at
the same time a man can teach any women with ease. May be not to be a star
of the show, but to dance well.
You brought here Susana Miller right in place. Isn't it why men learned
dancing from her in America are quite different because Susana Miller, a
woman with huge influence and popularity outside of BA was not able to
convey the right essence of a tango man?
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 09:10:08 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
Keith of HK worte:
"Unless you want them dancing like sissy Americans, rather than the macho
Argentine."
Cliff worote:
"SAY WHAT????"
Igor ( that is me ):
No need to be embarassed by "Macho Argentine" name.
Macho Argentine is expressed in Tango Walk - most important and most
difficult element of Argentine Tango.
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:40:46 -0600
From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
There must have been something lost in the translation because I swear I
thought there was something in there about Americans dancing like sissies.
Thanks for clearing that up for me Igor.
Clif
Keith of HK worte:
"Unless you want them dancing like sissy Americans, rather than the macho
Argentine."
Cliff worote:
"SAY WHAT????"
Igor ( that is me ):
No need to be embarassed by "Macho Argentine" name.
Macho Argentine is expressed in Tango Walk - most important and most
difficult element of Argentine Tango.
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:57:13 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
To: tango-L@mit.edu
This notion that a woman cannot teach a man to lead tango strikes me as more
than a bit odd. Granted that we can only speak honestly from our own experience
and what experience someone else is speaking form I can only surmise. In the
twelve years that I have studied tango I have taken many group and private
lessons from many men and women such as Susana Miller, Luren Bellucci, Christy
Cote, Guillermina Quiroga, and my first teacher and mentor, Nora Dinzelbacher.
Nora is both Argentine and a strong willed and demanding instructor whom it was
my good fortune to begin tango with. She insisted that the gentlemen lead with
authority as well as consideration for the lady and if a student was unclear on
the concept she had no problem demonstrating. While there may be women teaching
tango who are not up to the task yet this is not gender specific because I have
also observed men trying to teach tango about whom I can find nothing kind to
say. Needless to say it is a waste of time and money to take instruction from
someone if you do not have enough respect for them to listen and accept
correction from them. It has been my experience that listening to the ladies
pays off in the long run. As with anything else, your mileage may vary.
Ed Loomis [the only one I know about]
p.s. If any machismo out there is planning to confront Nora and tell her that
she can't teach tango because she is a woman, please let me know where and when
because I really want to see that.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:09:35 -0400, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
(snip)
>So yes, a woman can teach a man a lot about Tango - but only after he's
>learned how to dance Tango, or at least is in the process of learning Tango,
>>from a man. So women, please stick to teaching other women and leave the
>guys alone. Unless you want them dancing like sissy Americans, rather than
>the macho Argentine.
(snip)
>Keith, from Hong Kong [not the other one :-)]
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:10 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Let?s look at women teachers in BsAs. From what I
> understand, women who teach without a male partner are not
> held in the same regard as they would be in other countries.
Um, what other countries, Trini?? I think you'll find it's USA not BsAs
that's the odd one out. Certainly in Europe too women teachers are held in
lower regard (though a few deserve better).
The reasons are surely obvious.
I recall a workshop here taught by Veronica Villaroel alone, where she
struggled to get herself lead in the step she required by beginner guys
picked from the class. Followed by a workshop by Carlos Gavito alone,
having no trouble demoing by leading beginner girls.
Couples too often reinforce the perception that in class teaching women
are better seen but not heard. In the last workshop I took with Gustavo
Naviera and Giselle Anne (about 7 years ago), Giselle said not one word in
the whole 1.5 hours.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango Festival)
*From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
*To:* tango-L@mit.edu
*Date:* Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
The following is not meant to start flame-wars, so read no
further if you?re inclined to find controversy where none
is intended.
In the article, Fabian commented that he started CITA
because there were tango festivals going on worldwide but
not in BsAs. What I found particularly interesting was
that his comment clearly showed that he was influenced by
what was happening outside of BsAs. (For obvious reasons,
there is less of a need for a festival in BsAs than there
is in other countries.) I also realized that the teachers
at CITA are quite accustomed to festivals from their
experiences in other countries. Argentine tango teachers
are also doing their own festivals now in BsAs (Pulpo?s
Tango Week, Milongueando) and are actively recruiting as
they tour. This is also relatively new.
Argentine teachers who tour have also become accustomed to
more relaxed customs. Among them:
- asking a person verbally to dance,
- women asking men to dance,
- same sex dancing at milongas,
- women teachers.
No teacher that I know of has an issue with any of these.
When the teachers are back in BsAs, I?m sure they follow
the local codes there. However, it will be interesting to
see what happens over time as these teachers influence
generations of tangueros, who become the new milongueros.
Let?s look at women teachers in BsAs. From what I
understand, women who teach without a male partner are not
held in the same regard as they would be in other
countries. Graciela Gonzalez got a lot of flack when she
began teaching a class for women. I recall a workshop in
Cleveland a few years ago with Milena Plebs and Ezequiel
Farfaro, who had only been dancing for about 5 years at
that point. I had expected Milena to do most of the
teaching, but to my surprise, Ezequiel did the teaching. A
more observant friend explained to me later that Milena was
feeding Ezequiel what to say next while people were busy
with the material. He thought it was to preserve that
Argentine machismo. In the U.S., it doesn?t phase people
to have a woman teacher as the main guest for a weekend of
workshops. Perhaps this outside support has encouraged
more Argentine women to teach as the main teacher.
So it is an interesting relationship, one in which the
outside world is influencing what is happening in BsAs
indirectly. Has those living in BsAs noticed any other
changes due to how tango is being taught or danced
elsewhere?
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:39:14 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
To: tango-L@mit.edu
On Mon Mar 26 1:57 , Ed Loomis <TangoBear@pobox.com> sent:
>This notion that a woman cannot teach a man to lead tango strikes me as more
>than a bit odd. >
>Ed Loomis [the only one I know about]
Ed,
If you read my email again, you'll see that I agree that a woman can teach a man
how to lead. In my experience it's rare, but I'm sure it's possible.
I don't know Nora Dinzelbacher, but I believe you when you say she's an excellent
teacher. But I can [almost] guarantee that she can't walk like a man, which in my
opinion is the most important part of Tango.
Keith, from HK
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:43:40 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
Igor,
Thanks for perfectly explaining that. I certainly wasn't casting any aspersions
on American toughness or manliness, only his Tango :-).
Keith, from HK
On Mon Mar 26 1:10 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>Keith of HK worte:
>"Unless you want them dancing like sissy Americans, rather than the macho
>Argentine."
>
>Cliff worote:
>"SAY WHAT????"
>
>Igor ( that is me ):
>
>No need to be embarassed by "Macho Argentine" name.
>Macho Argentine is expressed in Tango Walk - most important and most
>difficult element of Argentine Tango.
>
>Igor Polk
>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 03:54:57 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
Chris, UK wrote:
> I recall a workshop here taught by Veronica Villaroel alone, where she
> struggled to get herself lead in the step she required by beginner guys
> picked from the class. Followed by a workshop by Carlos Gavito alone,
> having no trouble demoing by leading beginner girls.
No surprise there.
As a learner I have studied for 8 years under a variety of male and female
instructors. I have found it invaluable to take the same topic several
times, under different instructors and at different workshops, to get
the benefits
of both leader and follower perspectives. Each repetition helps to
crystalize
the material a little more, although I suspect it will never reach absolute
clarity as long as men and women remains different genders.
However, as an organiser of workshops who has to hire instructors, I
subscribe to a theory of unequal teaching effectiveness:
Best
1. Strong leader and strong follower
2. Strong leader teaching alone
3. Strong follower teaching alone (focusing on the follower's role)
4. Woman teachers who teach both lead and follow roles
Weakest
I find that generally teachers who try to do number 4 often over-
intellectualize the topic with too much body-mechanics, with the
result that the student becomes even less sure about how to take
a simple step.
This is not unlike how single parents may try to be both father
and mother but at the end still fall short of either.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:51:41 -0300
From: "Janis Kenyon" <Jantango@feedback.net.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
To: "Tango-L" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Trini wrote:
<So it is an interesting relationship, one in which the outside world is
influencing what is happening in BsAs indirectly. [Have] those living in
BsAs noticed any other changes due to how tango is being taught or danced
elsewhere?>
If the economy in China can impact the markets in New York, then
the worldwide tango community can impact Buenos Aires:
Tourism is changing the face of the city.
Tourism is changing what languages are spoken by portenos.
Tourism is changing the real estate market.
Tourism is changing how people work, what they do and how they live.
Tourism is changing how the citizens experience tango.
Tourism is changing the long-standing tradition of milonga codes.
>>From my perspective in BsAs for eight years, the biggest change is the
number of bi-lingual or multi-lingual tango classes.
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
Hello Igor,
I was not criticizing Argentines but merely pointing out a
facet of their culture. If I was criticizing, I would have
used more adjectives.
I can see your point about the Argentine male's way of
walking. However, I have seen Susana Miller turn men into
Argentine tigers. Grrrr! Unfortunately, it just doesn't
last.
As for men teaching women, I've come to a conclusion that a
man can teach a woman to dance well in his own style,
whereas women are better able to teach other women how to
accommodate different styles much better. That's been my
experience, anyway.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Trini:
> "the point in my post was that
> Argentine women teachers without a regular male partner
> seem to be treated with less respect in BsAs .."
>
> I came a long way to understand that if something
> happening, it is happening
> for a reason, especially if it is a custom.
> Instead of cheaply criticizing Argentineans that they do
> not treat women
> with the same "respect", try to understand why.
> I believe if they do, there is a reason for that.
> And I'd better look for the reason.
>
> And the reason is ( and that was discussed by Keith of HK
> ) that a man can
> teach both men and women a good tango. A woman have much
> more difficulties
> of doing it. Women are not men and this is it, that is
> how nature put it.
> Only a man can teach other men how to be a man in
> Argentine Tango. And at
> the same time a man can teach any women with ease. May be
> not to be a star
> of the show, but to dance well.
>
> You brought here Susana Miller right in place. Isn't it
> why men learned
> dancing from her in America are quite different because
> Susana Miller, a
> woman with huge influence and popularity outside of BA
> was not able to
> convey the right essence of a tango man?
>
> Igor Polk
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:42:20 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences
On Tue Mar 27 7:07 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>I can see your point about the Argentine male's way of
>walking. However, I have seen Susana Miller turn men into
>Argentine tigers. Grrrr! Unfortunately, it just doesn't
>last.
Trini,
It doesn't last because, no matter how much she knows or
how great a teacher she is, no woman can walk like a man.
She can know and explain all the technical details and, as
you write above, she may even be able to get the man to do it
during the lesson. But the bottom line to me is that she can't
demonstrate the walk and, as I've said previously, a man needs
a role model. After the lesson, the man needs a mental image
of what he was taught and what he's trying to achieve during
his subsequent practice sessions. Otherwise, you're right -
it just won't last. Most men, just can't recall verbal
instructions.
Of mediocre teachers, I have no recollection. But of the best,
like Gustavo Naviera, I have a crystal-clear image of how they
moved and what I want to achieve.
Keith, HK
