1928 Patron and Stupid remarks - Bacan
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:17:25 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Patron and Stupid remarks - Bacan
And now comes Dirk Bakker with his usual stupid remarks.
In case you do not remember, he is the one that embarked in a discussion of
the history of the Bandoneon with the Tango Historian Ruben Terbalca.
He attempted to keep the discussion going in Castilian, it was impossible to
understand a word, his Spanish is that bad!
Since Dirk will argue anything just for the sake of arguing Ruben and I
decided not to answer his groundless remarks.
We have a group where tango has developed an interest in other aspects of
Argentinean culture, one of them is the language.
Several in our group have been going to Argentina every year and are
studying Castilian.
I never objected to Alberto's use of the word "patron" I took the
opportunity to point to the difference in meaning in the USA vs. the Latin
countries, the same as I did with the word "Apology" which prompted another
stupid correction on the part of Dirk.
Patron is a word that is little used in Argentina, where people usually of
humble condition will use it to refer to the "owner" of something.
*The word has the same meaning in Spanish, French and Italian. While I was
at a milonga in Ankara (Turkey) somebody introduced a gentleman as "patron"
meaning the owner of the company for which he worked. I learnt then that
Turkish may have borrowed some words from French.
*In the USA we usually use this word as Client or supporter and not as
owner.
These notes generate a lot of very interesting private mail.
I learned that patron is used in Japan as "Sugar daddy" for instance.
One word use in slang is "Bacan" to mean a man that seems to be wealthy.
Such as in "Ella tiene un bacan que la mantiene".
She has a wealthy guy that supports her. This word originated in the
Genovese dialect in which it means "Owner" (According to Jose Gobello's
lunfardo dictionary.
So Dirk what the hell is that you are talking about?
Let's get prepared for his answer now. :)))
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 03:56:14 -0500
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Patron and Stupid remarks - Bacan
Judging by your very "polite" response, Mr. Sergio (whatever your last
name is), my so-called stupid remarks must have upset your
sensibilities. I only try to point out where what I know differs from
what you try to push as erudition, which no doubt all "enjoy" to varying
degree, but not as much as you do.
Isn't it sincere of you that when I happen to agree with you, you don't
call those remarks "stupid". And I have the e-mails from you to prove it
in case you have conveniently forgotten them.
You're obviously confused. While my surname may be Dutch, I was born in
Colombia and my Castillian was my mother tongue and stands on its own
merits, thank you very much, as no doubt yours and your English does, as
well. And your English or writing skills must be so good that if you
meant to but comment on Alberto's usage, as you now appear to be saying,
he certainly did not take it as such, nor did I.
My attempt to communicate in my 'bad' Spanish, (and Colombian Castillian
being know for that, as no doubt you know) with your Tango Historian
buddy was a courtesy to him (and requested by several people in the
list) as his understanding of my English was hampering the discussion.
My limited knowledge on the subject however is based on readings of
numerous sites that to this day don't quite follow nor are influenced or
vaguely swayed by his interpretations. As apparently neither did the
chronology of the design of the instrument itself was to him, which is
even more important, IMO. Privately, to yours and Rubens' chagrin, I
received mails from several people agreeing with mine. That, aside from
my own understanding, serves me well inspite of your disparaging remarks.
Unlike you, I do not attempt to bask in the glow of adulation, nor to
flaunt my position, travels, etc., but simply want to set the record
straight when people misinform and, if I am mistaken, learn in the
process (which I am not so proud to allow for) even though you obviously
want to stifle that and characterize them as groundless. You obviously
think of yourself as a walking encyclopedia or think that your
understanding is the only one, hence your repeated tendency to "shoot
from the hip". But the reason reference material exists is to consult
it, hence my reason for the inclusion of the URLs for yours as well as
everyone elses' benefit. As were my remarks advocating inclusion in
interpreting other peoples 'lesser' attempts at communication.
Thanks for the insistent volunteering of your explanation on the word
Bacan. No doubt you mean well, as your general tone indicates.
Was that the response you were instigating or in internet lingo:
trolling for?
Dirk Bakker
Sergio wrote:
>And now comes Dirk Bakker with his usual stupid remarks.
>In case you do not remember, he is the one that embarked in a discussion of
>the history of the Bandoneon with the Tango Historian Ruben Terbalca.
>He attempted to keep the discussion going in Castilian, it was impossible to
>understand a word, his Spanish is that bad!
>Since Dirk will argue anything just for the sake of arguing Ruben and I
>decided not to answer his groundless remarks.
>
>We have a group where tango has developed an interest in other aspects of
>Argentinean culture, one of them is the language.
>Several in our group have been going to Argentina every year and are
>studying Castilian.
>
>I never objected to Alberto's use of the word "patron" I took the
>opportunity to point to the difference in meaning in the USA vs. the Latin
>countries, the same as I did with the word "Apology" which prompted another
>stupid correction on the part of Dirk.
>
>Patron is a word that is little used in Argentina, where people usually of
>humble condition will use it to refer to the "owner" of something.
>
>*The word has the same meaning in Spanish, French and Italian. While I was
>at a milonga in Ankara (Turkey) somebody introduced a gentleman as "patron"
>meaning the owner of the company for which he worked. I learnt then that
>Turkish may have borrowed some words from French.
>
>*In the USA we usually use this word as Client or supporter and not as
>owner.
>
>These notes generate a lot of very interesting private mail.
>
>I learned that patron is used in Japan as "Sugar daddy" for instance.
>
>One word use in slang is "Bacan" to mean a man that seems to be wealthy.
>Such as in "Ella tiene un bacan que la mantiene".
>She has a wealthy guy that supports her. This word originated in the
>Genovese dialect in which it means "Owner" (According to Jose Gobello's
>lunfardo dictionary.
>
>So Dirk what the hell is that you are talking about?
>
>Let's get prepared for his answer now. :)))
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:36:31 -0700
From: Julian Centella <tangotiger888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Stupid remarks
Larry Gmucs says "I could analyze Tango until I can't move anymore, but
I'd rather dance and please my follower."
Then Ed Loomis from Sacramento answers: "Thank you, Larry, for this moment of sanity in a wilderness of blather."
This is a list to discuss any aspect of Argentine Tango. Each time we have an interesting subject attracting many participants to express their opinion, we get stupid remarks of those that never provide the list with an intelligent thought.
If you do not have anything interesting to say do not put down those that do.
We also dance AND have something to say as well. Talking about blather.
