3920 Pejorative Attitudes
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 06:24:20 +0000
From: Russell Ranno <russellranno@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Pejorative Attitudes
Hello Astrid,
I was saddened to read your latest posting. Nothing seems to be changing
vis a vis the pejorative attitude some women on this list seem to have about
mens dancing, and men in general, and nobody speaks up about it.
Ill leave out any discussion of bad personal hygiene because we all have
had to face that assault at times. But I find comments like these
particularly unenlightened: so these women don't have to bear with the
bumbling dilettantes all of the time, the debatable lack of men, and among
the men that are present,for the lack of a greater numbers of really good
dancers, the really fast learning talented "guys" are mostly found among
the females. And no, I dont want to arm wrestle.
I travel a lot so I have danced in many countries. Often in beginnners
classes, women out number the men, but in advanced classes men outnumber the
women. Many of the women who do attend advanced classes are there as
leaders (many who are there make their living teaching). What is going on
here?
There are many women who are exqusite close embrace dancers in the milonga
because they go to milongas all the time. But some are not so great at more
complex open embrace material the stuff that takes many classes and
workshops to master, and I have heard some women say, I dont know what all
that stuff is called, but if the lead is good I can follow it. Bunk, pure
bunk, and an insult to those committed women who are sincerely working on
their craft.
I will be attending a festival soon, and sure enough, there are not enough
women in the advanced classes to balance out the enrollment. As the
workshops draw near and if the numbers don't improve maybe I should consider
the "taxi" concept and hire a professional partner. But I am not passing
judgement and complaining about female bumbling dilettantes, or a lack of
skilled women, or that women are not fast learning and talented. None of
this has anything to do with gender (unless that is how one sees
everything). It simply is how it is for this coming workshop. As for the
eternal quest for that great dance as in all other fields of endeavor,
when the dancer is ready, the perfect partner comes along...
Russell
>From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
>Reply-To: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] How to teach rhythm? The Contrarian view - A
>question of Future
>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:43:49 +0900
>
> > How to keep them interested to stay in between gray rhythm-struggling
> > unshaved crowd dressed in crumpled tough cotton shirts and shapeless
>pants?
> >
>Hire taxi dancers and teaching assistents from Argentina, like Luna de
>Tango
>did. So these women don't have to bear with the bumbling dilettantes all of
>the time. Of course, for the debatable lack of men, and among the men that
>are present,for the lack of a greater numbers of really good dancers, these
>guys were imported. With the result, that the flood of women eager to dance
>with them got even bigger. Whatever you do... But for me, two songs with
>Cristian, Gonzalo or David on a good day can make even an otherwise
>terribly
>boring 3 hour long evening feel worth it all. By the way, Igor, IMO the
>really fast learning talented "guys" are mostly found among the females.
>If you don't like the above mentioned style of clothing, come to Japan.
>Nobody here would ever dream of showing up at a milonga (or a class)
>dressed
>like that.
>
>Astrid
>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:16:52 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Pejorative Attitudes/ un tal peligula
> Ill leave out any discussion of bad personal hygiene because we all have
> had to face that assault at times. But I find comments like these
> particularly unenlightened: so these women don't have to bear with the
> bumbling dilettantes all of the time, the debatable lack of men, and
among
> the men that are present,for the lack of a greater numbers of really good
> dancers, the really fast learning talented "guys" are mostly found among
> the females. And no, I dont want to arm wrestle.
By "guys" I simply used Igor's word, I did not mean female leaders, I meant
female dancers.
>
> I travel a lot so I have danced in many countries. Often in beginnners
> classes, women out number the men, but in advanced classes men outnumber
the
> women.
Tell me where, I'd be happy to see a class like that. In Japan, women
outnumber men in all classes, no matter what level. In 6,5 years I have seen
about three classes (that is, 3 evenings altogether) where men outnumbered
women.
Many of the women who do attend advanced classes are there as
> leaders (many who are there make their living teaching). What is going on
> here?
I don't know. Here (advanced) women only lead when the teacher asks them to
chip in as extra men, because there are too few in the class, and these
female leaders are very few. When more men arrive, these women return to
their follower's role. Obviously, someone who wants to teach has to learn
both roles, though.
>
But some are not so great at more
> complex open embrace material the stuff that takes many classes and
> workshops to master, and I have heard some women say, I dont know what
all
> that stuff is called, but if the lead is good I can follow it. Bunk,
pure
> bunk, and an insult to those committed women who are sincerely working on
> their craft.
But this is the way it works. If the lead is good, and the woman knows how
to follow, she can follow it. Even if she does not know the step. It is not
necessary to know what the step is called. My first teacher actually refused
to tell me what most steps were called, in order to teach how to just
follow.
By the way, I know by now how to follow most steps, also those unknown to me
til hat moment, but I still take a class or two almost every week of the
year.
But I am not passing
> judgement and complaining about female bumbling dilettantes, or a lack
of
> skilled women, or that women are not fast learning and talented. None of
> this has anything to do with gender (unless that is how one sees
> everything).
Naturally, there are some dilettantes among women too. But as you can see
from my statements above, women usually just have to learn how to follow,
once they can really do that, from a certain point, they don't need to learn
many more moves, because they can just follow when that new move appears in
the dance, they just have to practise. For men it is more difficult, they
have to know their own steps, they have to know how to lead the woman,
sometimes the woman's steps are different from their own,and they should
know that as well...so it takes longer for them to learn. I respect the men
who do not give up in spite of all that.
In Tokyo the reality is, that there are probably 2-3 times as many female
tango dancers as male ones. Therefore, the competition among the women is
very high. Esp. in difficult fantasia classes, it often is a ratio of about
5 or 6 women to 1 man, and the lion's share of the privadas everywhere is
taken by women. And there are many who happily dance with any man at the
milongas, as long as they get a chance to get out there on the dance floor.
In this situation, men do not feel particularly compelled to take lots and
lots of lessons and really brush up and polish their skills, I think.
However I have seen a small nunmber of teachers who attract more men. El
Chino for instance. The difference was that he really taught connection.
Simpler steps, but great emphasis on connection. I think, many men simply
despair at trying to learn all that intricate footwork, while not being
given very detailed explanations on how to lead it,and they give up. Or they
stay in the class and never go to the milonga, because they have not really
been taught how to navigate by a stage dancer..
On Sunday I was at a special milonga in town called "Homenaje por Carlos
Gavito" (why this came so late, I don't know). I was sitting at the same
table with Cristian and Laura, and a couple of friends from Luna. It did not
take long, and there were lots of women trying to get a seat at our table.
Every time I got up to dance, some lady immediately sat down on my chair.
When I came back, two women were sitting on my chair together, and the same
on the chair next to it too. I never got more than 3-5 minutes at a time to
talk to Cristian, because every time we started to talk to each other, some
woman would come and ask him to dance.
Later in the milonga, we were shown the movie "Exiliado en el cielo", which
they said, was the last movie taken with and about Carlos Gavito. The
narration, interviews and dialogues were in Spanish, with Japanese
subtitles. Has anyone on the list seen or own a copy of this movie? I would
appreciate it if someone could send me at least part of the narration in
English translation. Esp.the interviews with Tomas and Mabel Gavito, his
father and sister.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:47:38 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Pejorative Attitudes/ un tal peligula
astrid wrote:
>Tell me where, I'd be happy to see a class like that. In Japan, women
>outnumber men in all classes, no matter what level. In 6,5 years I have seen
>about three classes (that is, 3 evenings altogether) where men outnumbered
>women.
>
>
You're in Japan. In the US women often get into this thing of just going
to the milongas and skipping practicas and milongas.
>\But this is the way it works. If the lead is good, and the woman knows how
>to follow, she can follow it. Even if she does not know the step. It is not
>necessary to know what the step is called. My first teacher actually refused
>to tell me what most steps were called, in order to teach how to just
>follow.
>By the way, I know by now how to follow most steps, also those unknown to me
>til hat moment, but I still take a class or two almost every week of the
>year.
>
>
I disagree. Lots of maneuvers call for women's technique at an advanced
level in order for things to work. Up to intemediate level, the
learning curve
is steeper for men. To get to the advanced level, women need to work just
as hard as men.
> But I am not passing
>
>
>>judgement and complaining about female bumbling dilettantes, or a lack
>>
>>
>of
>
>
>>skilled women, or that women are not fast learning and talented. None of
>>this has anything to do with gender (unless that is how one sees
>>everything).
>>
>However I have seen a small nunmber of teachers who attract more men. El
>Chino for instance. The difference was that he really taught connection.
>Simpler steps, but great emphasis on connection. I think, many men simply
>despair at trying to learn all that intricate footwork, while not being
>given very detailed explanations on how to lead it,and they give up. Or they
>stay in the class and never go to the milonga, because they have not really
>been taught how to navigate by a stage dancer.
>
>
True ... This happens in the US too. I think the strongest tango
communities
are man-friendly in that fashion (without tolerating jerks, of course).
>On Sunday I was at a special milonga in town called "Homenaje por Carlos
>Gavito" (why this came so late, I don't know). I was sitting at the same
>table with Cristian and Laura, and a couple of friends from Luna. It did not
>take long, and there were lots of women trying to get a seat at our table.
>Every time I got up to dance, some lady immediately sat down on my chair.
>When I came back, two women were sitting on my chair together, and the same
>on the chair next to it too. I never got more than 3-5 minutes at a time to
>talk to Cristian, because every time we started to talk to each other, some
>woman would come and ask him to dance.
>
>
I need to visit Tokyo. After BsAs, of course. :)
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 07:30:59 -1200
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Pejorative Attitudes/ un tal peligula
Christopher wrote:> >
> Lots of maneuvers call for women's technique > at an
advanced level in order for things to work. Up to >
intemediate level, the learning curve > is steeper for men.
To get to the advanced level, women > need to work just as
hard as men.
IMHO, the number ONE thing holding women back from advanced
levels is STFFNESS, not technique. When a woman pushes hard
on her right hand, she is pushing me off our alignment. Not
only is her arm stiff, her other muscles are tight as well.
Yes, lessons improve skill level. However, no amount of
lessons can overcome stiffness and tension. As my teacher,
Joe, says "Let it happen, not make it happen." Years ago, I
couldn't possibly lead some of the figures I can now because
of my own tension. Tension prevented me from pivoting. I
remember painfully the first time I tried a back sacada. It
felt like I pulled my back out and sounded like feeding time
at the Bronx Zoo. But after three years with a yoga
therapist squeezing tension out of me like toothpaste out of
the tube, now I can. But if the woman is stiff, pushing on
her right arm, I'm out of position and can't lead it.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
FINALLY can enjoy tango because I'm relaxed
P.S. The same thing goes for men. When they are stiff, women
feel like they are
pushed and pulled into and out of ochos. No wonder when
Daniel Trenner teaches, he has men dance with men. We need
to feel how rough we are when it's not needed at all. Once
again he shows he knows what he's talking about -- even if I
don't understand him at the time
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 18:02:08 -0700
From: David Liu <dwyliu@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pejorative Attitudes/ un tal peligula
What he said :)
I've also found it to be true that many women don't take classes, but do go
to milongas and practicas. (Vice-a-versa for men).
Likewise, during the beginning and the middle it is much easier on women
than men -- the women can "just follow". In advanced they have to start
having much better technique.
David
On 10/26/05, Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:
>
> astrid wrote:
>
> >Tell me where, I'd be happy to see a class like that. In Japan, women
> >outnumber men in all classes, no matter what level. In 6,5 years I have
> seen
> >about three classes (that is, 3 evenings altogether) where men
> outnumbered
> >women.
> >
> >
> You're in Japan. In the US women often get into this thing of just going
> to the milongas and skipping practicas and milongas.
>
> >\But this is the way it works. If the lead is good, and the woman knows
> how
> >to follow, she can follow it. Even if she does not know the step. It is
> not
> >necessary to know what the step is called. My first teacher actually
> refused
> >to tell me what most steps were called, in order to teach how to just
> >follow.
> >By the way, I know by now how to follow most steps, also those unknown to
> me
> >til hat moment, but I still take a class or two almost every week of the
> >year.
> >
> >
> I disagree. Lots of maneuvers call for women's technique at an advanced
> level in order for things to work. Up to intemediate level, the
> learning curve
> is steeper for men. To get to the advanced level, women need to work just
> as hard as men.
>
> > But I am not passing
> >
> >
> >>judgement and complaining about female bumbling dilettantes, or a lack
> >>
> >>
> >of
> >
> >
> >>skilled women, or that women are not fast learning and talented. None of
> >>this has anything to do with gender (unless that is how one sees
> >>everything).
> >>
> >However I have seen a small nunmber of teachers who attract more men. El
> >Chino for instance. The difference was that he really taught connection.
> >Simpler steps, but great emphasis on connection. I think, many men simply
> >despair at trying to learn all that intricate footwork, while not being
> >given very detailed explanations on how to lead it,and they give up. Or
> they
> >stay in the class and never go to the milonga, because they have not
> really
> >been taught how to navigate by a stage dancer.
> >
> >
> True ... This happens in the US too. I think the strongest tango
> communities
> are man-friendly in that fashion (without tolerating jerks, of course).
>
> >On Sunday I was at a special milonga in town called "Homenaje por Carlos
> >Gavito" (why this came so late, I don't know). I was sitting at the same
> >table with Cristian and Laura, and a couple of friends from Luna. It did
> not
> >take long, and there were lots of women trying to get a seat at our
> table.
> >Every time I got up to dance, some lady immediately sat down on my chair.
> >When I came back, two women were sitting on my chair together, and the
> same
> >on the chair next to it too. I never got more than 3-5 minutes at a time
> to
> >talk to Cristian, because every time we started to talk to each other,
> some
> >woman would come and ask him to dance.
> >
> >
> I need to visit Tokyo. After BsAs, of course. :)
>
> --
> Christopher L. Everett
>
> Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com <https://www.medbanner.com>
> MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com <https://www.physemp.com>
>
