4138 Problems with the front ocho - a mystery solved
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:20:35 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Problems with the front ocho - a mystery solved
"Lois wrote <<<< I don't like leading beginning women who have been
"taught" the front ocho. Any other leaders out there have the same
experience?>>>>>
Yes, Lois, I know exactly what you mean. It's an awful feeling when a
follower tries to come around in a forward instead of continuing the
side step of a led ocho cortado. In the social styles of the dance, I
feel that it's much better to learn the forward at a much later time
than the cortado. But a question comes to mind; is half of a forward
ocho stilled called an ocho? That's all I ever lead. Should we call it a
"zero"? Or maybe a "U";-).
Michael Figart II"
IMO a half of a front ocho is just a half of a front ocho.
What follows is a good example of the confusion that can occur when you do
not consider the different tango styles together with their own inherent
technique.
I write what follows with absolute respect for Lois, Michael and all the
milongueros that wrote against the front ocho.
I was amazed to read notes about not teaching the "infamous front ocho" , I
could not understand the reason, what amazed me the most was that an
instructor of tango could say such things as: I do not like dancing with
followers that were taught the front ocho, etc..
Now when I read Michael's message I realized that my mistake was not
realizing that they are dancers of "Milonguero Style" and do not dance
"Salon" therefore the front ocho is a nuisance rather than an advantage as
they only use the "ocho cortado or ocho milonguero".
This is interesting because while at the milongas in Buenos Aires when I
danced with Argentine ladies I could use either the ocho cortado or the
front ocho without any difficulty but when I danced with foreign girls most
of them did not know the ocho cortado and would answer my lead trying to do
a rather awkward front ocho. After an initial failure naturally I would
continue dancing with front ochos only.
So, Eureka! the mystery is finally solved.
Summary: When dancing Milonguero Style (the way Susana Miller does it) it is
nice to use the ocho milonguero or Cortado. When dancing salon close
embrace use either the front ocho or the ocho cortado with experienced
ladies. Only front ochos with the ones that do not know the ocho cortado,
most people all over belong in this last group.
The problem arises when a leader that only knows to dance using the ocho
cortado has to dance with a woman that only knows the front ocho. She
follows the lead to do the second part of the ocho cortado by turning the
hip the wrong way, pointing to the direction of the move as it is done in
tango salon rather than turning the hip the opposite way and crossing her
left foot in front.
And a final question for you: what happens when a man that only knows the
front ocho dances with a lady that only knows the ocho cortado. What do you
think?
Have a good day, Sergio.
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 10:20 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Problems with the front ocho - a mystery solved
> ... But a question comes to mind; is half of a forward
> ocho stilled called an ocho? Should we call it a
> "zero"? Or maybe a "U";-).
> Michael Figart II"
>
> IMO a half of a front ocho is just a half of a front ocho.
>Sergio Vandekier
>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:49:59 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Problems with the front ocho - a mystery solved
Dear Sergio:
This is my complaint. Why are dancers not being
taught both the front ocho and the ocho cortado? What
the hell is wrong with their teachers...lol?
People should be able to dance Argentine tango with
anyone who walks in the door. Argentine tango is a
social evening first and a dance second. Teachers who
purposely leave out important stuff to promote their
own little marketing schemes are not good teachers.
I really get tired of dancing with dancers who are
limited by choice. If they are beginners, I do not
mind, but when they are supposedly good dancers, it is
just ridiculous and it is also very anti-social
behavior. My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> "Lois wrote <<<< I don't like leading beginning
> women who have been
> "taught" the front ocho. Any other leaders out there
> have the same
> experience?>>>>>
> Yes, Lois, I know exactly what you mean. It's an
> awful feeling when a
> follower tries to come around in a forward instead
> of continuing the
> side step of a led ocho cortado. In the social
> styles of the dance, I
> feel that it's much better to learn the forward at a
> much later time
> than the cortado. But a question comes to mind; is
> half of a forward
> ocho stilled called an ocho? That's all I ever lead.
> Should we call it a
> "zero"? Or maybe a "U";-).
>
> Michael Figart II"
>
> IMO a half of a front ocho is just a half of a front
> ocho.
>
> What follows is a good example of the confusion that
> can occur when you do
> not consider the different tango styles together
> with their own inherent
> technique.
>
> I write what follows with absolute respect for Lois,
> Michael and all the
> milongueros that wrote against the front ocho.
>
> I was amazed to read notes about not teaching the
> "infamous front ocho" , I
> could not understand the reason, what amazed me the
> most was that an
> instructor of tango could say such things as: I do
> not like dancing with
> followers that were taught the front ocho, etc..
>
> Now when I read Michael's message I realized that my
> mistake was not
> realizing that they are dancers of "Milonguero
> Style" and do not dance
> "Salon" therefore the front ocho is a nuisance
> rather than an advantage as
> they only use the "ocho cortado or ocho milonguero".
>
> This is interesting because while at the milongas in
> Buenos Aires when I
> danced with Argentine ladies I could use either the
> ocho cortado or the
> front ocho without any difficulty but when I danced
> with foreign girls most
> of them did not know the ocho cortado and would
> answer my lead trying to do
> a rather awkward front ocho. After an initial
> failure naturally I would
> continue dancing with front ochos only.
>
> So, Eureka! the mystery is finally solved.
>
> Summary: When dancing Milonguero Style (the way
> Susana Miller does it) it is
> nice to use the ocho milonguero or Cortado. When
> dancing salon close
> embrace use either the front ocho or the ocho
> cortado with experienced
> ladies. Only front ochos with the ones that do not
> know the ocho cortado,
> most people all over belong in this last group.
>
> The problem arises when a leader that only knows to
> dance using the ocho
> cortado has to dance with a woman that only knows
> the front ocho. She
> follows the lead to do the second part of the ocho
> cortado by turning the
> hip the wrong way, pointing to the direction of the
> move as it is done in
> tango salon rather than turning the hip the opposite
> way and crossing her
> left foot in front.
>
> And a final question for you: what happens when a
> man that only knows the
> front ocho dances with a lady that only knows the
> ocho cortado. What do you
> think?
>
> Have a good day, Sergio.
>
>
> Download today - it's FREE!
>
>
>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:21 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Problems with the front ocho - a mystery solved
"Lois wrote <<<< I don't like leading beginning women who have been
"taught" the front ocho. Any other leaders out there have the same
experience?>>>>>
Yes, Lois, I know exactly what you mean. It's an awful feeling when a
follower tries to come around in a forward instead of continuing the
side step of a led ocho cortado. In the social styles of the dance, I
feel that it's much better to learn the forward at a much later time
than the cortado. But a question comes to mind; is half of a forward
ocho stilled called an ocho? That's all I ever lead. Should we call it a
"zero"? Or maybe a "U";-).
Michael Figart II"
IMO a half of a front ocho is just a half of a front ocho.
What follows is a good example of the confusion that can occur when you
do
not consider the different tango styles together with their own inherent
technique.
I write what follows with absolute respect for Lois, Michael and all the
milongueros that wrote against the front ocho.
I was amazed to read notes about not teaching the "infamous front ocho"
, I
could not understand the reason, what amazed me the most was that an
instructor of tango could say such things as: I do not like dancing with
followers that were taught the front ocho, etc..
Now when I read Michael's message I realized that my mistake was not
realizing that they are dancers of "Milonguero Style" and do not dance
"Salon" therefore the front ocho is a nuisance rather than an advantage
as
they only use the "ocho cortado or ocho milonguero".
This is interesting because while at the milongas in Buenos Aires when I
danced with Argentine ladies I could use either the ocho cortado or the
front ocho without any difficulty but when I danced with foreign girls
most
of them did not know the ocho cortado and would answer my lead trying to
do
a rather awkward front ocho. After an initial failure naturally I would
continue dancing with front ochos only.
So, Eureka! the mystery is finally solved.
Summary: When dancing Milonguero Style (the way Susana Miller does it)
it is
nice to use the ocho milonguero or Cortado. When dancing salon close
embrace use either the front ocho or the ocho cortado with experienced
ladies. Only front ochos with the ones that do not know the ocho
cortado,
most people all over belong in this last group.
The problem arises when a leader that only knows to dance using the ocho
cortado has to dance with a woman that only knows the front ocho. She
follows the lead to do the second part of the ocho cortado by turning
the
hip the wrong way, pointing to the direction of the move as it is done
in
tango salon rather than turning the hip the opposite way and crossing
her
left foot in front.
And a final question for you: what happens when a man that only knows
the
front ocho dances with a lady that only knows the ocho cortado. What do
you
think?
Have a good day, Sergio.
FREE!
