559 Refusing a dance
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:37:20 -0400
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Refusing a dance
LdLA mentioned being turned down too many times. Here in the land
of "Minnesota Nice" women are encouraged to accept a dance with
anyone. The reasoning is that there aren't enough men, their egos are
fragile, and we need to make sure they stay in the scene. (exceptions
can be made for gropers).
I ascribed to this philosophy for a long time, but I'm getting
disenchanted with it. I don't really want to be used as a practice
dummy, a show-off tool or an ego-booster. I don't like to be pushed,
prodded and shoved by people who haven't learned to respect my
balance. I especially don't like it by a leader who is not interested
in taking a lesson or two in order to improve his lead, rather than
learn a new pattern.
I always ask people how they started dancing. I have heard from a
number of the better leaders that they went to a dance, danced with a
woman, and she told him he was lousy. That was enough to get them
committed to getting better.
So-what does the list think? Will this work, or will we lose all the
men?
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 15:08:30 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
danced with a
> woman, and she told him he was lousy. That was enough to get them
> committed to getting better.
>
> So-what does the list think? Will this work, or will we lose all the
> men?
>
You will loose all the men that are:
1) only there to pick up a woman
2) only there to show off
3) only there to enhance their smallish sense of pride and confidence
(usually compensated by appearing overly arrogant, and intolerant to
criticism)- same type as in 2)
4) only there to make themselves believe for a few hours that they are
lounge lizard (similar to type1)
If there is anybody left after you have made all these types mentioned above
feel alienated and out of place by telling them, how they really dance, no
matter what they care to believe about themselves, you will know who is
really worth your while as a tanguera.
If you doubt that there may really be anyone like that in your group, and
you prefer putting up with them rather than having to dance with the teacher
and the other women, and doing ochos against the wall, bite your tongue.
From woman to woman
Astrid
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:39:12 +0200
From: CLIMENTI Dominique <cli@UBP.CH>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
Hi everybody!
I want to say some words on this topic. I think this is not a matter
only of accepting or refusing a dance; it's a matter of tolerance and
especially of knowing what we want. For me, to be able to enjoy the
dance with someone is not a matter of level skills or ability it's a
matter of comfort and relationship. I don't care if the partner I'm
dancing with is a complete beginner or a really famous teacher, what I
need to enjoy the dance and make her enjoy it too is to feel good with
her, it doesn't import why. I can fell good with her because she is a
good friend, because I like the way she dance or because she is a real
beginner and I know she will have fun dancing with a more advanced
dancer and a lot of other reasons. That's about the relationship. About
the comfort I thing about body comfort, it can be uncomfortable (or not)
to dance with someone who is much bigger or much smaller than I or
dancing trying to keep a woman in balance when she loose it every 2 or 3
steps (that the only point where the skill can be important, but people
can have a good balance without high skills) and especially when she is
20 or 30 kilograms heavier than I, who is often the case I'm only 52
kg... :-) So I know this 2 things are important to me to enjoy the
dance, so I will dance generally with partners who fulfill this 2 points
and more rarely with others because if I don't enjoy the dance she also
will not find the dance enjoyable. Dancing with someone is like
discussing with him; we can't discuss with every body with the same
pleasure and be friends with everybody.
Dominic-----------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 11:59:31 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Refusing a dance
Dear list members,
This topic of refusal has always been one of the hot ones in the past of the
tango-L exchange.
For some reasons, since I joined Fall of last year, I seem to notice that
Tango-L has more male opinion than female's. As the "refusal to dance" can
go both ways, I am glad to see some female members vocalizing their
thoughts. I look forward to hearing more female members comments.
For now, triggered by Astrid's posting, I want to address refusing by
criticizing the partner(s) due to their poor skills . (Larry's scenario
apparently is not this case)
In my opinion, in many cities, tango is a social event, where some members
come to enjoy their company and ambiance- not so much to wreck their brains
in order to improve their skills. I don't know the value of criticizing
the person out-loud. Particularly if the critic is very skilled dancer --
or at least he/she thinks so, then, there will be a lot of victims receiving
this negative comment. This person may be considered as an unpopular
character in a social setting.
For the communities where the gender is unbalanced, say, for my location
when the female outnumbers the male, criticizing the male will certainly
sentence that lady to warm the cold bench. Likewise for the other way
around, when the male criticize in the communities where the male outnumbers
the female.
I heard of a theory that if all the leaders or all the followers gang
together and recline the poor dancer's invitation (note: not criticize, just
refuse), that might be a signal to encourage the dancer to improve. I have
seen some people practicing this method, but regretfully, this approach was
not adopted by the community at large. Guess what, those who exercising it
ended up spending a lot of time sitting.
>>you prefer putting up with them rather than having to dance with the
>>teacher and the other women<
This comment is intriguing.
Somehow, it is not easy to be able to dance with the teachers in some local
communities; they hardly invite us, and frequently turn down our
invitations. In the festivals and workshops, I noticed that teachers tend
to dance with each other. To a certain point, I just stop entertaining the
thoughts that we will ever dance together.
But I like the essence of the point Astrid made, about (female) dancing with
other female (and thus expound to the scenario that male dancing with male).
I (female follower) have met many excellent female-leaders worldwide. I
am gauging my dance pleasure from the quality of the dance, not the gender
difference, the same way I don't choose my doctor or accountant or taxi
driver based on their gender. A bad ocho led by a male is still a bad ocho,
period. I hope that this approach will give the message for the one who
needs to improve, to improve. Obviously, this liberal approach will be
frowned upon in the conservative dance communities.
Anyone has better idea to recommend to me?
Bibi (a Midwest farmer's daughter)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:12:43 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <manuel@TANGO-RIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
At Thursday, 23 May 2002, Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>I don't know the value of criticizing
>the person out-loud.
I don't think there is any value at all in critizicing anybody's
dancing at a milonga. Personally I think it is a very rude and arrogant
thing to do. If I do not like the way someone dances, I just wont
dance with them. I certainly will not take it upon myself to "fix"
them.
>I heard of a theory that if all the leaders or all the followers gang
>together and recline the poor dancer's invitation (note: not criticize,
just
>refuse), that might be a signal to encourage the dancer to improve.
I've noticed that there is no effective way to force anybody to improve
their dancing (or to do anything else for that matter). Those who
want to improve will do so on their own and those who will not cannot
be made to do it. I think it is just plain good sense to dance with
those one enjoys dancing with and not dancing with those who hurt
us or are unpleasant to dance with.
>Somehow, it is not easy to be able to dance with the teachers in
some local
>communities; they hardly invite us, and frequently turn down our
>invitations. In the festivals and workshops, I noticed that teachers
tend
>to dance with each other.
Teachers will dance with their regular pupils. I know that I do.
OTOH, it is not fair to expect the travelling teachers to dance with
every person who attends a workshop and demands a dance. I personally
respect their time of rest and relaxation. If a travelling teacher
asks me to dance, I will be happy to do it but I generally do not
ask them to dance.
In reality, the traditions of tango in BsAs include such as this:
there are old milongueros who go to the milongas and sit until just
the rigth tanda of their favorite music plays, then they dance with
their particular favorite partner and they go home! How's that for
selctiveness. Surely, if that is an accepted and perhaps common occurrence,
certainly being particular in one's choice of partners cannot be
faulted too much ;-)
Enjoyable tangos to all,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:53:02 -0400
From: Clifton Chow <TangoPassionMoon@AOL.COM>
Subject: Refusing a dance
Hello fellow Tangueras y Tangueros,
I have a response to Lois's posting. Specifically, she wrote in part, "I don't really want to be used as a practice
dummy, a show-off tool or an ego-booster. I don't like to be pushed, prodded and shoved by people who haven't learned to respect my balance. I especially don't like it by a leader who is not interested in taking a lesson or two in order to improve his lead, rather than learn a new pattern."
Although I still believe in the philosophy you stated earlier about the need to dance with as many partners as possible who invite you to dance (gropers aside), I do think after awhile you should exercise some judgment. There are nights when after only 3 tandas that my left arm begins to get sore and my back ache from followers who can't find their centre and end up leaning on me or otherwise restricting my lead. Should I simply avoid asking them to dance next time or refuse them if they asked me? I think I would be honest and ask whether that person would like some feedback and perhaps suggest that she take additional classes/workshop. It takes two to Tango, and it's no lie. It's not fair that I should blow out my knees because of poor followers anymore than you should be prodded about by poor leaders. We need to convince regular dancers that to improve is in the end, healthier for all and it makes our dances more enjoyable.
Clifton de Boston
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:34:12 -0700
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
--- Clifton Chow <TangoPassionMoon@AOL.COM> wrote:
. Should I simply avoid asking
> them to dance next time or refuse them if they asked
> me?
Yes, yes, yes, yes!!!! This is what the women do,
isn't it?
Soon the bad followers will ask some experienced
follow what they can do to improve their dance and how
to get the good leaders to ask them. That is when the
wise old woman suggests private classes or working on
balance, or whatever. Is is NEVER appropriate, at a
milonga, for the leader to suggest anything other than
a cup of coffee afterwards. The guys who try to
'teach' me are the worst dancers who have ignored my
lack of eye contact with them and dragged me out of my
chair to dance with them.
Unless you want to lose partners like me, you will
avoid any corrections at all costs - unless made in a
workshop or practica or by mutual agreement with a
usual partner. Even when working with my usual
partner, I rarely correct him in a workshop,
preferring to wait until the instructor notices his
error and makes the correction to him.
And another word of caution - if you ask a follow if
you may make a suggestion and she answers with
anything other than a giant smile and an enthusiastic
YES!!!, do not do it!!!!! I am still very annoyed
with an otherwise charming fellow and a great dancer
who did this to me - assuming I wanted to dance like
his usual partner does ( Nuevo Tango) - which I DO
NOT! If he had wanted to dance with his usual
partner, he should have asked her, not me!
Nancy
"A certified wise old woman"
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:31:22 EDT
From: Maria Helena <TangoMaria@AOL.COM>
Subject: refusing a dance
Maybe the dance is doomed, but men should not be coddled. For the last ten
years or more, men have had the opportunity to develop their feminine side.
It's time for men to step up to the plate. Is it worth it to have men in the
dance it they are
boys who refuse to grow up? Sometimes men need to be hit over the head to wake
them up. Being nice to save a man's ego is a disservice to both men and women.
Brian (Roberts) Rosino in Denver
(using Maria (Chamberlain) Rosino's email address since he is not on the
list. If you wish to respond to him personally send your email to:
Brian.Roberts@westword.com
Pls do not respond to Maria on the above statement, thank you!
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 23:45:56 +0200
From: Chris Luethen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: refusing a dance
On 23 May 2002, at 17:31, Brian (Roberts) Rosino wrote:
> Maybe the dance is doomed, but men should not be coddled. For the last
> ten years or more,
30 years and more in Europe ... remember '68! :-)
> men have had the opportunity to develop their
> feminine side. It's time for men to step up to the plate. Is it worth
> it to have men in the dance it they are boys who refuse to grow up?
> Sometimes men need to be hit over the head to wake them up. Being nice
> to save a man's ego is a disservice to both men and women.
Those 'over-emanzipated' miss a lot ... esp. in Tango, but also in
real life (is there a difference). It's not about saving the man's ego,
it's about "real" masculinarity. That's what we modern northern
hemisphere men have to "re"learn. And that 'real' thing includes
*respect* for the feminine side!
Men and women are polar, and united they make up the big thing.
And tangueros and tangueras *are* polar, and united they make up
the dance couple. No part is complete without it's counterpart! It's
the fusion ... chinese know about this for thousands of years: Yin
and Yang make up the "The great ultimate"!
Happy tangoeing wishes
Christian
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:18:30 -0400
From: Georgia Littleton <glit10go@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
>From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
>Subject: Refusing a dance
>Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:37:20 -0400
>
>I always ask people how they started dancing. I have heard from a
>number of the better leaders that they went to a dance, danced with a
>woman, and she told him he was lousy. That was enough to get them
>committed to getting better.
>
>So-what does the list think? Will this work, or will we lose all the
>men?
I don't think we'll lose all the men... they just won't dance with you!
What I said about not being a teacher on the dance floor goes just as much
for us women as for the men.
There is only one way to improve the dancing level within a community... by
dancing better, not by telling anyone else to dance better.
Accepting a man's invitation doesn't suddenly give you carte blanche to pick
his dancing to pieces. You aren't doing him a "favor" by agreeing to dance
with him. It's a partnership, for better or worse.
People go to college to become doctors and engineers, seldomly professional
dancers. People need time to figure out how to move. I don't like being
jabbed and pulled either, but I don't honestly believe most of those people
want to make me feel bad. They just don't have their act together yet.
(Sometimes certain men are inconsiderate, but I haven't noticed any
relationship between that and dancing ability; beginner louts can look
forward to becoming expert louts.) If you like the man, be supportive and
let him figure it out on his own time. I expect no less treatment from men
who dance with me. If it's too unpleasant for you to keep silent, just
don't dance with him.
Nobody owes you a good dance, just respectful and considerate treatment.
Leave him alone.
That's what Georgia says.
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:53:33 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
Lois wrote:
I don't like to be pushed,
prodded and shoved by people who haven't learned to respect my
balance.
What Georgia sez:
You aren't doing him a "favor" by agreeing to dance
> with him. It's a partnership, for better or worse.
>
I have noticed that now, that my balance has improved, it is a lot less easy
to push and pull me around. You can actually help the man to steady himself
by keeping your axis straight, and serving as a support to him. Yes, it
takes some muscle power, achieved by creating a strong, stable, but flexible
tension (like in a bow) from your feet all the way up to your head. Push
your feet into the floor while keeping your weight up.This is a thing that
needs to be worked on for months and years, you don't achieve that kind of
stability at an instant, but once you do, you can even enjoy dancing with a
talented beginner. Meanwhile he can work on becoming a better leader, and he
may appreciate your humouring him while he does.
But you don't need to waste your talents on some big ego insensitive oaf,
who is manhandling you, while he thinks he knows all about the dance and
that all the aborted moves are your fault.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:01:40 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
Astrid wrote:
>I have noticed that now, that my balance has improved, it is a lot
>less easy to push and pull me around. You can actually help the man
>to steady himself by keeping your axis straight, and serving as a
>support to him.
Astrid makes a very interesting point. I find it much easier to dance with
women to maintain a "strong" axis. It also provides me with feedback if I
am taking myself off balance or my lead pulls the woman off balance.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:21:27 -0700
From: Robert Dodier <robert_dodier@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
Lois Donnay wrote:
> I always ask people how they started dancing. I
> have heard from a number of the better leaders
> that they went to a dance, danced with a woman,
> and she told him he was lousy. That was enough
> to get them committed to getting better.
There's a subtle twist that we should emphasize, if
we don't want to scare off the men (or women)
who receive this kind of encouragement.
Should we tell someone that they, personally,
are lousy? Or should we say that their dance
technique could stand improvement?
Often enough the latter is misunderstood as the
former, so we ought to be careful if we want to
go down that road.
Simple inability or incompetence is not discouraging
in itself. What's discouraging is getting the sense
of "You think I'm a crappy person".
For what it's worth,
Robert Dodier
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 01:48:48 -0700
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
Lady leaders in Seattle.
Dancing tango has nothing to do with a doctor, accountant or a taxi
driver.
Tango by tradition is a dance between a man and a woman, there are many
woman that are good leaders, most of them are teachers and spend many
hours every day dancing, there are others that because of their
inclinations find more enjoyment in dancing with other woman.
According to the experts it takes about one year to become a good
follower and a lifetime to became a good leader
As a man I find no problem in dancing with other man in my home or at the
practica in order to learn how to lead a new step or improve one that I
am not doing well.
I would never dream in a milonga in going to a table where a couple is
seating and invite the man to dance, some woman are doing this, they go
to where men and women are seating together and invite the ladies to
dance.
It does not much good to the men ego.
The first thought is why she did not asked me? .
The second is I might not be a good dancer as I think I am.
The third puts everything in its right place I think she likes women .
While some women are seating a lot some others are dancing a lot because
they ask the men if they would like to dance.
I think it is OK for a woman to dance with other one at the practica, or
in a milonga when there are many-many more women than men, not just a few
more.
Elemer
..
bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM Wrote:
But I like the essence of the point Astrid made, about (female) dancing
with
other female (and thus expound to the scenario that male dancing with
male).
I (female follower) have met many excellent female-leaders worldwide.
Bibi (a Midwest farmer's daughter)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 12:12:53 -0700
From: Benjamin Koh <benkoh@STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Women dancing together (was Re: [TANGO-L] Refusing a dance)
Elemer Dubrovay wrote:
<snip>
> Dancing tango has nothing to do with a doctor, accountant or a taxi
> driver.
Agreed. Doctors, accountants and taxi drivers generally earn enough
money to pay their bills and support a family :-)
> Tango by tradition is a dance between a man and a woman
Traditions change. Not to sound nihilistic or philosophical, but nothing
remains constant. If tango today was the same as BsAs tango in the
1940s, yes, there would be no same sex dancing. But if we go back
further in time, to BsAs tango in the 1880s, there would *only* be same
sex dancing (and only between the men). What is tradition, really? It's
simply something from the past that current society has accepted as
positive and worth preserving. When it goes out of vogue, few bemoan it.
So if the local tango scene changes, deal with it, or do without it.
I apologize if the "take it or leave it" attitude seems a little harsh,
but ultimately a tango community is just that - a community of people
with wildly differing ideas, sharing only a love of tango (which also
arises from wildly differing reasons). It is not one person's vision. It
is a messy scene that forms to satisfy the greatest possible number of
people who will pay to support it. There are a few ways to make a
statement, with varying degrees of effectiveness:
1. Teach. Instill your own ideas into your students. That way you'll
build a population of dancers who share your views about tango
practices. The acceptability of your ideas and methods will be borne out
by your popularity as a teacher.
2. Host your own milonga. Then you can lay down any rules you want
regarding behaviour, partnering, music etc. Again the acceptability of
your rules will be borne out by the attendance at your milonga.
3. Vote with your feet. If you don't like what is going on at a milonga,
leave. There will be no public judgment here on your ideas...
#1 is not easy - you need to be ABLE to teach. #2 is not easy either -
the logistics and finances are always a hassle. #3 is the most practical
option for those of us disinclined to teach or host, and you don't need
to preach to anybody unless they ask for it. It also avoids the
uncomfortable possibility of being publicly proven wrong...
<snip>
> I would never dream in a milonga in going to a table where a couple is
> seating and invite the man to dance, some woman are doing this, they go
> to where men and women are seating together and invite the ladies to
> dance.
I've asked men at a milonga to dance before. Granted, they were people I
knew fairly well, and they were not seating with women. For myself, I go
to a milonga to enjoy myself. This means dancing well to music that I
like. I love dancing with a good female follower, but I would rather
follow a good male lead than lead a lousy female follower.
As I said earlier, everyone goes to a milonga for different reasons.
Some are there to meet with friends, some to pick up men/women, some to
eat/drink, some to listen to the music, some to dance, and others for
some combination of the above. Just because one places a greater degree
of importance on dancing with someone of the opposite sex does not give
one the right to impose this same limitation on others!
> It does not much good to the men ego.
Unfortunately nobody can help the men with this ego problem but the men
themselves, and each man can only deal with his own personal ego problem
:-(
> The first thought is why she did not asked me? .
See below.
> The second is I might not be a good dancer as I think I am.
Bingo. Jackpot. First prize. You win. Yes. Si. Ja. Oui. This is the
simplest response, and the simplest answer is usually the correct one
(see: Occam's Razor)... Some other simple possibilities: I have bad
breath, I played soccer and forgot to shower, I ate garlic at dinner and
didn't brush my teeth, I have body odour, my stubble scratches her face,
my hair gets in her eyes etc. Grooming and personal hygiene play a
larger role in social dancing than is sometimes believed :-)
> The third puts everything in its right place I think she likes women .
Most of the good female leaders I've seen are also excellent followers,
whether or not they teach, so I think the second response (or one of its
alternates) is more likely to be the correct one. Automatically assuming
that the lady prefers women simply avoids self-examination and dooms one
to repeat this experience in the future.
In any case there is nothing the men can do if a lady prefers to dance
with women in general, but there is a LOT the men can do if the lady is
dancing with women because the men are lousy...
> While some women are seating a lot some others are dancing a lot because
> they ask the men if they would like to dance.
While the male/female ratio does play a large role in the amount of
dancing one gets, it can be safely said that someone gets to dance a lot
because he/she is good (relative to the others on the floor). The more
limited the selection of good dancers is, the more dance time (relative
to the others) these dancers will get.
For myself, if someone I don't enjoy dancing with asks me to dance, I'll
usually find a polite excuse and sit that dance out, even if everyone I
want to dance with is already taken.
> I think it is OK for a woman to dance with other one at the practica, or
> in a milonga when there are many-many more women than men, not just a few
> more.
>
> Elemer
Most women I know go to a milonga because they want to dance with men.
Whether or not there are extra women (or even extra men), from what I
have seen, they do not usually dance with female leaders unless these
female leaders are much better than the male leaders. Therefore I doubt
that women dancing together is an indicator of the gender balance;
rather, I believe it to be an indicator of the quality of the male
dancers present. Though outstanding examples of both obviously exist,
the average female leader I have seen is *much* better than the average
male leader. It then seems unfair to object to female leaders because
they are better than the male leaders...
Benjamin
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 19:13:31 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
Maybe the women who dance with other women are sending a message to men.
There were earlier messages about women telling men they need to improve
or they are hurting their arm or frame. Men don't seem to be reticent
about telling women about their problems but they seem to have problems
receiving similar feedback when the shoe is on other foot. (No pun
intended.)
I DON'T agree with Elemer's statement that a woman dances with women
because "she likes women." That attitude saves the man from having to
consider the real reason, which is Elemer's #2 "I might not be a good
dancer as I think I am." If the woman in Elemer's statement dances with
other men but NOT Elemer, well, figure it out.
Dancers have to answer the following question. When they dance, who is
more important; Themselves or their partner?
I will go out on a limb and say that those who think figures are more
important that connection and chemistry WILL NEVER, EVER, taste the
sweetness of tango.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
On Sat, 25 May 2002 01:48:48 -0700 Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM
wrote
> I would never dream in a milonga in going to a table where a couple >
is> seating and invite the man to dance, some woman are doing this, they
> go> to where men and women are seating together and invite the ladies
to
> dance.
>
> It does not much good to the men ego.> The first thought is why she
did not asked me? .> The second is I might not be a good dancer as I
think I am.> The third puts everything in its right place I think she
likes > women .
>
> While some women are seating a lot some others are dancing a lot >
because> they ask the men if they would like to dance.
>
> Elemer
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 12:44:30 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: refusing a dance
Robert Dodier wrote :
" Simple inability or incompetence is not discouraging
in itself. What's discouraging is getting the sense
of "You think I'm a crappy person".
For what it's worth,
"
There have been many comments in the list about women refusing a dance, or
women dancing with women, or women asking men to dance instead ,contrary
wise to the usual men asking women to dance.
What Robert Didier is saying, is what really matter in my opinion, i.e. to
be polite and friendly, whatever the level of skill of dance of the partner
is.
Now, what would you do if your dancing partner askes for your opinion about
his skills ?? And if he/she overrate his/her level ??
It is very difficult to say with words, how the feelings evolved during
dancing . If you tried to perform a technique beforehand , or stick to a
routine in your step, maybe you missed the point to feel what happened with
your dancing partner .
I am not sure it is good to consider the dancing sites as "level cheking
points" .
Social dancing is so intimate, from my point of view. If you want to dance
to show off , maybe you are not honest with yourself, social dancing is not
what you need. If you want to show off (which is not to be discuoraged), you
will have to take regular lessons, practice with mirror & bar , make
elongations , etc.etc.. And find a partner that help to set a structured
line of steps , and practice again and again until it seems you are dancing
casually (but you are not dancing casually, you have preset all your steps,
room has not been left for improvisation , unless an accident happens when
showing your dance).
So , why not give us a permission with our bodies ??
Why not switch off the head for a while, and see what happens , if our
emotions could reach the body without having to pay the ticket at the
rational brain higway ??
I think the first tolerance has to be with oneself .To have patience ,
persistence and good humour . And you will receive the best compliment
after dancing " I don t know what we have done, but it was wonderful . Thank
you !! "
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:58:39 -0700
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
--- Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM> wrote:
> I would never dream in a milonga in going to a table
> where a couple is
> seating and invite the man to dance, some woman are
> doing this, they go
> to where men and women are seating together and
> invite the ladies to
> dance.
>
> It does not much good to the men ego.
> The first thought is why she did not asked me? .
> The second is I might not be a good dancer as I
> think I am.
So what? Welcome to the world of followers
everywhere. Am I wrong about that? You certainly are
no worse off than women who are hoping for an
invitation.
The difference here is that you are a leader and you
should know perfectly well what the motivation of a
leader's invitation is. You ask someone to dance
because you like that person, not because you hate the
dancer that person is sitting next to.
Not getting the invitation at that exact moment means,
in and of itself, precisely nothing. You can't
conclude anything from your neighbor being invited
instead of you. Certainly a man should know that
already!
Jai
Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 00:14:32 +0200
From: Chris Luethen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Refusing a dance
>From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
>Subject: Refusing a dance
>Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:37:20 -0400
>
>I always ask people how they started dancing. I have heard from a
>number of the better leaders that they went to a dance, danced
with a
>woman, and she told him he was lousy. That was enough to get
them
>committed to getting better.
This would/could be enough to decourage a man to come back
again! Lost at early stage!
It counts for both side: A good dancer [leader _and_ follower] is
one who can make the other, less experienced counterpart, feel
comfortable ... and enjoy the dance!
Keep it simple ... but nice! ;-)
Christian [*danced through until 6.15 am this morning ... if you ever
come to cologne, germany, don't miss giving "Tango Colon" a try!]
