5088 Rock step?
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:25:27 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Well when I learned to rock and roll 1000s of years ago we were taught a
rock step. In tango? Hmmm....well none of the milongueros I have ever
danced with ever did any rock step stuff with me. But then I am blond
so maybe I just didn't notice....I have never been rocked stepped to
return to a closed position of the feet. To be honest Ron, reading your
post I was trying to figure out just what is being danced. It sounds a
little complicated. The only thing I can think you are thinking of is
the giro. Giros should be smooth. There is no rock steps. They just
go. When done correctly, there may be a slight pause for the woman. I
have my own style where I am suspended on the side movement on one leg
(don't try this at home....). Could you be confusing a back step to the
music as a rock step?
On another note Janis and I were at Celia's together tonight. We were
talking about this rock step thing. Neither one of us knew what it was.
Then she danced with a man. When she came back to the table she went
"He rock stepped me!!" It was a unique experience. So I guess I would
have to stay, rock stepping with the milongueros I dance with is not a
core structure of the dance. Who is coming up with these words "core
structure?" God, it sounds like a positional paper for a management
consultant not people who are supposed to be enjoying dancing.
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:15:08 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Deby,
I believe we have a confusion about terminology.
When I was going to Marta Fama's group class in Palermo on Wednesday
night, she was teaching some milonga traspie stuff that looked awfully
like what I learned as a "rockstep" here in the USA. As Manuel says,
it's also known to many as an "arrependita".
The rockstep (as I understand it) isn't a core piece of tango by
itself, because the woman isn't being led to collect.
However, there's a important kernel of wisdom hidden here: a man
needs a surprisingly small number of basic elements on his part to
dance tango adequately.
This same number of basic elements is also all he needs to be a
great dancer, if we believe the distance between adequacy and
greatness is measured in terms of embrace, posture, technique,
musicality and quality of movement as well as repertoire.
Christopher
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:25:27 -0300, "Deby Novitz"
<dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com> said:
> Well when I learned to rock and roll 1000s of years ago we were taught a
> rock step. In tango? Hmmm....well none of the milongueros I have ever
> danced with ever did any rock step stuff with me. But then I am blond
> so maybe I just didn't notice....I have never been rocked stepped to
> return to a closed position of the feet. To be honest Ron, reading your
> post I was trying to figure out just what is being danced. It sounds a
> little complicated. The only thing I can think you are thinking of is
> the giro. Giros should be smooth. There is no rock steps. They just
> go. When done correctly, there may be a slight pause for the woman. I
> have my own style where I am suspended on the side movement on one leg
> (don't try this at home....). Could you be confusing a back step to the
> music as a rock step?
>
> On another note Janis and I were at Celia's together tonight. We were
> talking about this rock step thing. Neither one of us knew what it was.
> Then she danced with a man. When she came back to the table she went
> "He rock stepped me!!" It was a unique experience. So I guess I would
> have to stay, rock stepping with the milongueros I dance with is not a
> core structure of the dance. Who is coming up with these words "core
> structure?" God, it sounds like a positional paper for a management
> consultant not people who are supposed to be enjoying dancing.
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:49:30 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: ceverett@ceverett.com, tango-l@MIT.EDU
Milonga traspie is not the same as tango. It is danced well as an added
step with a changing of weight rapidly between the beats. One must move
faster to allow that extra jig. The reason most cannot do it well is
because they do "hop" or rock step to get to the next step. That is the
main reason why I seldom dance milonga. I feel like I am doing the la
quebradita. There are very few teachers who can teach milonga traspie
well. The majority in my experience teach it as a hop or a rock step
and that goes for Argentines as well as anyone else.
In the ocho cortado, the giro, there is no rock step. There is a shift
of weight on the woman (or as you guys like to neutralize - the
follower). In the ocho cortado that keeps on going - back and forth
between feet, the weight is shifted back and forth to each foot. The
difference between it looking sassy and looking clumsy is the ability of
the step to be well followed as change of weight. The change of weight
>from the woman is NOT a rock step. It is a slight movement. In the
giro it comes across as a hesitation. This also comes from the changing
of weight.
When I watch people dance from wherever they may come, I see this
rock-step action. Please don't slam for this, but it is usually from
foreign dancers who have not been taught how to subtlety lead and follow
this step. They have been taught it as a rock step. This is probably
what Keith from HK meant when he said it is not danced here. You don't
see an exaggerated rock step here unless it is with people who are just
learning or do not dance well, and even then you don't see it that much.
Perhaps this is all just silly semantics. For me a rock step from my
era....was a much harder based step. Nothing elegant about it. A giro,
an ocho cortado, and whatever other "steps" you want to call them should
be elegant.
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:53:40 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Rock step
To: tango-l@mit.edu
The "rock step" is normally used to turn left; it can be used in other ways
as well.
Some old milngueros may call it "Gardelitos". The name rock step comes from
ballroom dancing where it is used in the same way.
The turn using "Gardelitos" (rock step) imay be as follows:
You walk the lady to step #4 of the base. Here the lady has her feet
aligned rt. back and left front. Your feet are aligned Lt. front rt. back.
In this position you bring the lady even closer to your chest and start
rocking between the two feet,
moving slightly to rotate to your left.
This step is used mostly in Canyengue style and also in Milonga but can also
be used in tango.
It is a very simple way to turn but it has to be done with certain presence,
demeanor and personality.
Regards, Sergio
https://newlivehotmail.com
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:55:05 EDT
From: MACFroggy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: ceverett@ceverett.com, tango-l@mit.edu
You know, this is all about terminology, and it's a bit ridiculous especially
because of the two languages, English and Spanish, in which we learn and
dance tango. (OK, in Finland maybe there's three.)
But anyway. the "arrependita" of Christopher is probably what my partner
Ruben Aybar calls what I call, "ocho cortado" (still with me here?) Some people
also call it a "milonguero cross" but believe me, no milonguero uses that term.
A "rock step" to me is when the feet don't change position (one is forward,
one is back), but the weight "rocks" forward and back, and milongueros often
use it as a turn.
Because tango is a walking dance, there are times when the walk has to be in
place, and very simply "rocks" forward and back, changing feet, changing
weight--no hip motion, no fancy stuff, no rock 'n roll.
No big deal. Not even sure why I replied to this post. A rose by any other
name...
Cherie
(54) 11 4932-5027
https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
https://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:03:07 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
Debbie Novitz wrote:
>>Milonga traspie is not the same as tango. It is danced well as an added
step with a changing of weight rapidly between the beats. One must move
faster to allow that extra jig. The reason most cannot do it well is
because they do "hop" or rock step to get to the next step. That is the
main reason why I seldom dance milonga.<<
I love dancing milonga. It is a joy. In keeping with the idea of it just
being a romp, I tend to stick to basic milonga ste[s, adding a few traspie
movements only when I am comfortable with a partner and the music seems to
ask for traspie.
What I observe when watching others dancing milonga with lots of traspie
elements, is that many dancers rush their double-time movements. The
result is a lot of hoppping.
About the use of the rock-step in milonguero-style tango:
Susana Miller teaches what I would describe as a giro if you are watching
what the woman is doing. As Susana teaches the step pattern, the man's
footwork gives him an appearance and feeling of doing a rock step.
Interestingly enough, I have found there are at least three different
options for the man's footwork on this giro--one of which is a single foot
spin which gives the man a very different appearance and feel.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:19:45 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: "ceverett@ceverett.com" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>, Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
<cff24c340707231219m59702ab2n2a2cd17a0f69ae6e@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/23/07, ceverett@ceverett.com <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:
>
>
> I believe we have a confusion about terminology.
>
> When I was going to Marta Fama's group class in Palermo on Wednesday
> night, she was teaching some milonga traspie stuff that looked awfully
> like what I learned as a "rockstep" here in the USA. As Manuel says,
> it's also known to many as an "arrependita".
>
> The rockstep (as I understand it) isn't a core piece of tango by
> itself, because the woman isn't being led to collect.
Christopher (& list),
I apologize for confusion about terminology. I'm not sure where I first
picked up this term. What I can 'rock steps' Robert Hauk calls 'check steps'
to desinate the incomplete weight transfer.
I think most people are familiar with 'la cunita', which I believe has also
been referred to on occasion as 'la hamaca', which does not result, as you
say, in the woman being led to collect.
This is part of a larger family of 'steps' in which leading the woman to
collect after 'rocking' is included; in fact, the collecting steps comprise
a greater proportion of this family. For example, the man can step forward
with the left foot resulting in a incomplete transfer of weight, followed by
an incomplete transfer of weight to the back (right foot), followed by
bringing the woman to collect by leading her to step forward on the right
foot and now make a complete weight change. The angle of orientation of this
'rock step' can change, clockwise or counterclockwise.
With regard to weight transfer, as Deby says, less is better. (Perhaps this
is why 'rock' step is a poor term that, for better or worse, is widespread
in the English speaking tango world. I'd be happy to substitute a better
term.)
The most familiar named sequence in this family is the 'ocho cortado', which
in itself has several common variations. The ocho cortado is a common
culmination of rock steps that rotate clockwise, followed by
counterclockwise movement into the cross.
Another named sequence in this family is the 'media vuelta', although this
term is perhaps too general (literally 'half turn') to be useful. In this
sequence the man steps movement outside partner right (woman back left),
crosses left behind right foot and rotates his chest to lead the women
forward right (back then forward constituting a 'rock'), then forward left,
with the continued rotation bringing the woman again inot the cross. This is
a conterclockwise turn.
There are numerous other sequence combinations that can incorporate various
components of these named 'steps'.
However, there's a important kernel of wisdom hidden here: a man
> needs a surprisingly small number of basic elements on his part to
> dance tango adequately.
With reference to these rock step (or otherwise named) elements being part
of the 'core' repertoire of milonguero style tango, they join walks
(caminadas) and runs (corridas), forward and back ochos, and grapevine
turns. Probably that's more than a 'small number of basic elements', because
one can, of course, dance adequately/well with a subset of repertoire.
This same number of basic elements is also all he needs to be a
> great dancer, if we believe the distance between adequacy and
> greatness is measured in terms of embrace, posture, technique,
> musicality and quality of movement as well as repertoire.
>
> Christopher
>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:35:18 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: MACFroggy@aol.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Arrepentida is a smaller piece than that. It's just a change of
direction that happens before the weight is transferred. And it
needs a bit of fold, spindle and mutilate to make it into an ocho
cortado.
Christopher
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:55:05 EDT, MACFroggy@aol.com said:
> You know, this is all about terminology, and it's a bit ridiculous
> especially
> because of the two languages, English and Spanish, in which we learn and
> dance tango. (OK, in Finland maybe there's three.)
>
> But anyway. the "arrependita" of Christopher is probably what my partner
> Ruben Aybar calls what I call, "ocho cortado" (still with me here?) Some
> people
> also call it a "milonguero cross" but believe me, no milonguero uses that
> term.
>
> A "rock step" to me is when the feet don't change position (one is
> forward,
> one is back), but the weight "rocks" forward and back, and milongueros
> often
> use it as a turn.
>
> Because tango is a walking dance, there are times when the walk has to be
> in
> place, and very simply "rocks" forward and back, changing feet, changing
> weight--no hip motion, no fancy stuff, no rock 'n roll.
>
> No big deal. Not even sure why I replied to this post. A rose by any
> other
> name...
>
> Cherie
>
> (54) 11 4932-5027
> https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> https://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:40:15 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
My Argentine dancepartner called the rock step (with or without turn) a "rebota". A word I hadn't heard before. (She did not speak a word of English or taken lessons from teachers who usually teach non-spanish speakers). She also believed that it should be used only when really needed (to avoid immediate collision, to quickly change direction or as a game with the rythm ? la traspie)
Aron
ceverett> Arrepentida is a smaller piece than that. It's just a change of
ceverett> direction that happens before the weight is transferred. And it
ceverett> needs a bit of fold, spindle and mutilate to make it into an ocho
ceverett> cortado.
ceverett> Christopher
ceverett> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:55:05 EDT, MACFroggy@aol.com said:
>> You know, this is all about terminology, and it's a bit ridiculous
>> especially
>> because of the two languages, English and Spanish, in which we learn and
>> dance tango. (OK, in Finland maybe there's three.)
>> But anyway. the "arrependita" of Christopher is probably what my partner
>> Ruben Aybar calls what I call, "ocho cortado" (still with me here?) Some
>> people
>> also call it a "milonguero cross" but believe me, no milonguero uses that
>> term.
>> A "rock step" to me is when the feet don't change position (one is
>> forward,
>> one is back), but the weight "rocks" forward and back, and milongueros
>> often
>> use it as a turn.
>> Because tango is a walking dance, there are times when the walk has to be
>> in
>> place, and very simply "rocks" forward and back, changing feet, changing
>> weight--no hip motion, no fancy stuff, no rock 'n roll.
>> No big deal. Not even sure why I replied to this post. A rose by any
>> other
>> name...
>> Cherie
>> (54) 11 4932-5027
>> https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/
>> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
>> https://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--
Cheers,
Ecsedy mailto:aron@milonga.hu
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:55:04 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Revote is rebound, as in firing a gun, or bouncing back.
On Jul 23, 2007, at 3:40 PM, Ecsedy ?ron wrote:
> My Argentine dancepartner called the rock step (with or without
> turn) a "rebota". A word I hadn't heard before. (She did not speak
> a word of English or taken lessons from teachers who usually teach
> non-spanish speakers). She also believed that it should be used
> only when really needed (to avoid immediate collision, to quickly
> change direction or as a game with the rythm ? la traspie)
>
> Aron
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:53:46 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
Hi Everybody,
I never expected such a prolonged discussion over such a simple thing as the Rock-Step. Whatever we call it, we all know it exists in Tango and it's one of the very first steps that beginners use in navigating around the floor. But the more we learn, the less the Rock-Step should be used. As Aron's partner says ... " it should be used only when really needed" or, to quote Janis from a private message that I hope she won't mind me using ... " Milongueros are more creative than rock steps." The original point of the discussion was to question Ron's assertion that .. the rock-step system constitutes a core part of the 'structure of the dance' in tango milonguero." I think the replies have shown that it doesn't.
I still dance rock-steps because I teach and dance a lot with my beginners. But if I find myself doing one with an experienced follower, the thought that pops into my head is ... " Oh god, you moron - is that the best you can do - a boring rock step". If I can catch myself in time, I'll at least try to put a lot of turn on it - as Gavito teaches in his Video, Un Tal Gavito.
Keith, HK
On Tue Jul 24 5:40 , Ecsedy Cron sent:
>My Argentine dancepartner called the rock step (with or without turn) a "rebota". A word I hadn't heard before. (She did not speak a word of English or taken lessons from teachers who usually teach non-spanish speakers). She also believed that it should be used only when really needed (to avoid immediate collision, to quickly change direction or as a game with the rythm C! la traspie)
>
>
>
>Aron
>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:50:30 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rock step?
To: keith@tangohk.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340707240550l4944e3b2r55a2bbbadd9b2957@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/24/07, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> I never expected such a prolonged discussion over such a simple thing as
> the Rock-Step. Whatever we call it, we all know it exists in Tango and it's
> one of the very first steps that beginners use in navigating around the
> floor. But the more we learn, the less the Rock-Step should be used. As
> Aron's partner says ... " it should be used only when really needed" or, to
> quote Janis from a private message that I hope she won't mind me using ... "
> Milongueros are more creative than rock steps."
Keith,
I'll remember never to send you a 'private' message.
The more dancers learn, the less prominent NON-turning rock steps become.
For some dancers, as they learn more steps, they stop walking. Tango
instructors would go broke if they taught walking technique. They can live
off of tango if they teach 'cool steps'.
In the milonguero style, rock steps inititate the turning ocho cortado,
turns to the right and left with sacadas (grapevine turns), and various half
and full turns that do not follow the grapevine pattern. These become a
standard part of the milonguero style tango repertoire. They have a
functional use for crowded floors, less so for uncrowded floors. Dancers who
do not stay in the line of dance also do not need them.
The original point of the discussion was to question Ron's assertion that ..
> the rock-step system constitutes a core part of the 'structure of the dance'
> in tango milonguero." I think the replies have shown that it doesn't.
The original point of the discussion was in response to Stephen Brown's
description of the structure of the dance.
"The rock step turns are part of the core repertoire of tango milonguero,
yet these patterns are rare or non-existent in open embrace styles. I don't
know if anyone has codifed this rock-step system, but it does constitute a
core part of the 'structure of the dance' in tango milonguero."
Note the reference is to TURNS that incorporate the rock step. It was in
response to Steve's discussion of the Mingo Pugliese system.
Keith, you didn't understand the original post. You took the term 'rock
step' out of context and blew it out of proportion.
I still dance rock-steps because I teach and dance a lot with my beginners.
> But if I find myself doing one with an experienced follower, the thought
> that pops into my head is ... " Oh god, you moron - is that the best you can
> do - a boring rock step". If I can catch myself in time, I'll at least try
> to put a lot of turn on it - as Gavito teaches in his Video, Un Tal Gavito.
I hope the women I dance with don't think walking is boring and tell me they
want to be led to at least 20 boleos and 10 ganchos in a 3 minute tango,
along with all the volcadas and colgadas that are infecting US dance floors.
Connect with your partner and the music first and learn to navigate. A good
leader focuses on that rather than step vocabulary. If the woman enjoys the
dance, she won't report to her friends what steps the man did and did not
do. Turns are not performed because they are in the dancer's repertoire and
need to be exhibited to the audience to show the dancer's prowess. They are
used because of the navigational needs of the floor, out of respect for
other dancers.
Ron
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:45:47 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: [Tango-L] Open Embrace Styles [was Rock step?]
In discussing rock steps, I think Ron is quoting his own earlier post:
>"The rock step turns are part of the core repertoire of tango milonguero,
>yet these patterns are rare or non-existent in open embrace styles. I
don't
>know if anyone has codifed this rock-step system, but it does constitute
a
>core part of the 'structure of the dance' in tango milonguero."
I remain skeptical that there is an open-embrace style of tango. Some
people--mostly beginners and those performing on stage--dance with a more
open embrace.
If we are to claim differences between the so-called milonguero- and
salon-style dances, I would point to differences in the woman's footwork
on turns and to the relative use of double-time steps.
See Nina's earlier post:
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05365.html
With best regards,
Steve
