3646 seduction or imposition
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:27:59 -0700
From: H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: seduction or imposition
Hola Listeros,
Sorry to keep taking up so much list space. I know that those
of you who don't want to read more from me will delete or scroll
past this. I hope to be over this current posting obsession
soon, so I can have my free time back! Cheers!
Trini and Astrid,
I am not altogether sure that you're opinions are quite as
opposed as Astrid assumes.
Astrid--if a man's technique deteriorates completely and he
stops dancing, losing his axis and frame and connection in order
to (unmusically) rub his leg, his hands, or his groin all over
you, is this really so seductive? It can be done quite easily
in many settings, no reason to take classes or pay the entrada
to a milonga. Most people on on this list would agree that we
go dancing because we want to dance. Any sexual whatevers that
come up are bonus points. (Or sometimes beside the point).
As Randy pointed out in his last post, sex is fairly cheap and
easy to come by if you go to the right bars and/or street
corners. Lower your standards enough and it could be free.
Astrid, when I read your posts about the sexiness of entwined
legs, it doesn't seem to me that you are looking for a quick and
dirty encounter in the bathroom stall at the next cortina. What
you seem to enjoy is the art of seduction, the suggestiveness,
the satisfaction of being in the know, more worldly than the
rest of the people in the room. There is a little subtext going
on between you and the man you are entwined with, it is a little
secret, half hidden, half obvious, and who is to know from
looking whether it is for real or just a game. Is it a 3 minute
affair, or is it just the only *visible* 3 minutes of the
affair?
It seems to me that Trini's objections are not to the delightful
delicious little naughtiness of shared references to private
acts performed in public; she is objecting to those icky,
inartistic, overt and clumsy gropings which are merely nasty and
tasteless. How many of us women have been subjected to those
awful dances where the man's only conception of tango is that it
is "really sexy to have a woman draped all over you", so all he
does is maneuver you into some awkward and uncomfortable but
suggestive pose (ignoring line of dance, the music, navigation,
lead/follow etc.), then shuffle himself around and haul you into
yet another uncomfortable and stupid pose, this time gazing
meaningfully into your eyes, and so on with a specially dramatic
pose at the end? This is not dancing, it is not sexy,
suggestive or seductive; it is gross and unpleasant and no fun
at all. Maybe with the circumspection in Japan, this never
becomes an issue for you. But I've suffered through this more
than enough.
Some men I find extraordinarily attractive as dancers but real
turn-offs sexually. To me, if a man does not have the right
scent, he can dance like a god (or Gavito), look like Adonis (or
Adrian Brody), be a master of sparkling wit and sexy innuendo,
and all he will ever be to me is a great dance partner. That's
how I'm wired. As a consequence, I have never aspired to meet
Mr. Right or even Mr. One Night Stand on the dance floor. If a
man is interested, he needs to figure out if it is mutual. I
object when a man assumes that the successful completion of a
gancho means I'm "easy". Many other women share my feelings in
this. Now, I can have a great time playing that seduction game
when it is part of the dance, when the dance does not suffer.
But even in those rare cases when his pheromones fire up my
hormones, if the guy's dance degenerates so he can play grabby
games, then it's over. All the fun is gone.
Yeah, it is hilarious sometimes to be twining legs in very
provocative positions on a public dance floor, and we've all had
our share of dances when we come off the floor all flushed and
breathless for reasons other than the speed of the music. Why
be ashamed of it? It's all part of living life in the most
fully human manner possible. But there are always little
signals going on within the dance that let you know how the
other partner is responding to these little overtures. The guys
whose only intent is copping a feel don't pay attention to those
signals, they assume things that we have not given permission
for regardless of our body language or behaviors, and those of
us who have been sending signals of "Whoa, not so fast, not so
far, it's just a dance" then end up feeling used and slimy.
When I agree to dance with a man, I agree to participate in a
lovely connection with seduction or suggestiveness as possible
parts of the game to a lesser or greater extent. I do not agree
to be mauled, humped or used as a masturbation post. Now,
during the course of the dance, maybe we renegotiate aspects of
what we are willing to do together. Some guys maybe I'd be more
willing to be a bit more, umm, explicit? naughty? with. Some
will be encouraged into a very very open embrace. Sometimes it
is clear that we are understanding the most explicit of moves as
simple physical dance challenges. Sometimes we negotiate a sort
of goof off riff doing "sexy" or "suggestive" moves so asexually
that it becomes quite funny. Maybe we negotiate a continuation
of the game beyond the milonga. But this all comes from that
same listening and sensitivity. We need to read one another's
intentions. Without that, it's not seduction, it's "tango
rape", or at least "tango harassment".
And here's almost the opposite: we dance very close and never
do anything that would look the slightest bit sexy from outside
but it feels like something very special--not from rubbing or
intertwining, but from just the closeness and sharing, the
tightening of the embrace at a crucial moment, the breathing
together, standing still together in the most attentive way
possible. If I were to compare this to sex, I think that I
would say that it is not so much like the sex act itself, but
like those moments of extreme closeness that come after the act.
Or like those moments in a long and successful relationship
when you feel so close to the loved one, so in harmony, that you
can eat a meal together each lifting the fork or water glass in
concert and people at the restaurant ask you which anniversary
you are celebrating, without ever having seen anything so overt
as hand-holding. "Food I ate with you was more than food, wine
I drank wit you was more than wine". Now, to be able to
experience THAT in a three minute dance is pretty special.
Maybe that is what Randy found so sad about the paid dancers.
Those women would never be inspired to work on themselves or
their dance to the point where they could experience that
closeness. They are paying those guys for a service, and to the
guys, as Randy says, "It feels like work". They are ashamed.
These poor women will never have the incentive to bring their
dance up to the level where it can be a *shared* pleasure. They
are paying only for their own pleasure, and thus the young men
withhold that part of themselves that brings the dance to the
next level. The women never get the 3 minute affair, they get a
chaste version of the bathroom stall quickie. They get only the
mundane of both worlds, the best of nothing.
Hyla
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 07:46:22 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Hello Hyla,
That's a great post, and how nice that you say what's
what.
But just to put things in perspective, I find the
majority of men to be gentlemen on the dance floor.
Yes, there is an occasional lecher who will try to
force a leg wrap, and if your resist by just keeping
your legs down, will persistently stay put and try to
hoist you not just once more but 4 more times before
giving up and moving on. I am not making this up, it
happened just the other day.
But most of the time there is just dancing, friendly
but without extras whether unilateral or bilateral.
I find that the kind of moves that are seductive to
me, are very subtle. There's what Susana Miller calls
franela, the brushing of thighs during the walk.
Paradas can be seductive. There's the subtle
readjusting of the embrace on the woman's back, the
folding in of the hands on the open side to rest on
the man's chest, the pauses that allow you to settle
into a moment of perfect equilibrium.
On the other end of the spectrum there are the
invasive moves, these include the ganchos, leg wraps,
sacadas which you sometimes follow enthousiastically
and sometimes reluctantly. In general, it is easy to
sort out if a man leads these because they are fun
figures that work well with the dynamics of his dance,
or just because his goal is to get his legs between
yours or yours around his as often as he can get away
with.
But again, such lechers are in the minority and pretty
easy to avoid.
In my earlier post I suggested that men, by virtue of
their life strategy as males, unconsciously connect
tango and sex. This is pretty much under the surface,
and is expressed as a general desirability of
feel-good situations in which he gets to interact with
women socially, have their one-on-one attention, dance
with them, hug them etc. Perfectly acceptable
socially. And without the feelgood reward, the men
might be discouraged by the stress and rejection and
stop coming to tango.
The guys with the objectionable dance
strategies are probably the same as the ones that
hang in bars and try those stupid pick-up lines on
every woman that walks by.
Best regards
Tine
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
To unsubscribe, send us an email, or if you're in a hurry, do it yourself by sending an email to YaleTangoClub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. If it doesn't work, just let us know. We're nice people and we really don't want to aggravate anybody. Thanks!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:55:33 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Gracious Hyla,
Your posts are remarkable, and I love to read every
word. Can you imagine Gavito apologizing for taking so
long to finish a dance? To apologize for your posts is
no less absurd! I hope your posting obsession
continues for a long time. Do you really need free
time?
Sean
--- Hyla <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Sorry to keep taking up so much list space... I hope
to be over this current posting obsession soon, so I
can have my free time back! Cheers!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:21:22 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Agreed - if at some point in the future one of us gets around to
compiling a "Best of TANGO-L" for publication, I believe Mme. Hyla would
have a large number of entries therein. Bravo!
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Trini or Sean - PATangoS wrote:
> Gracious Hyla,
>
> Your posts are remarkable, and I love to read every
> word. Can you imagine Gavito apologizing for taking so
> long to finish a dance? To apologize for your posts is
> no less absurd! I hope your posting obsession
> continues for a long time. Do you really need free
> time?
>
> Sean
>
>
> --- Hyla <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
> Sorry to keep taking up so much list space... I hope
> to be over this current posting obsession soon, so I
> can have my free time back! Cheers!
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 12:47:50 -0400
From: Joanne Pogros <joanneprochaska@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Hyla, I agree with you completely. You have not only reiterated the obvious but have also illuminated the hidden thoughts of the feminine tango heart about a very "touchy" subject! Thank you very much for taking the time to write.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 04:27:59 -0700
Subject: [TANGO-L] seduction or imposition
Hola Listeros,
Sorry to keep taking up so much list space. I know that those
of you who don't want to read more from me will delete or scroll
past this. I hope to be over this current posting obsession
soon, so I can have my free time back! Cheers!
Trini and Astrid,
I am not altogether sure that you're opinions are quite as
opposed as Astrid assumes.
Astrid--if a man's technique deteriorates completely and he
stops dancing, losing his axis and frame and connection in order
to (unmusically) rub his leg, his hands, or his groin all over
you, is this really so seductive? It can be done quite easily
in many settings, no reason to take classes or pay the entrada
to a milonga. Most people on on this list would agree that we
go dancing because we want to dance. Any sexual whatevers that
come up are bonus points. (Or sometimes beside the point).
As Randy pointed out in his last post, sex is fairly cheap and
easy to come by if you go to the right bars and/or street
corners. Lower your standards enough and it could be free.
Astrid, when I read your posts about the sexiness of entwined
legs, it doesn't seem to me that you are looking for a quick and
dirty encounter in the bathroom stall at the next cortina. What
you seem to enjoy is the art of seduction, the suggestiveness,
the satisfaction of being in the know, more worldly than the
rest of the people in the room. There is a little subtext going
on between you and the man you are entwined with, it is a little
secret, half hidden, half obvious, and who is to know from
looking whether it is for real or just a game. Is it a 3 minute
affair, or is it just the only *visible* 3 minutes of the
affair?
It seems to me that Trini's objections are not to the delightful
delicious little naughtiness of shared references to private
acts performed in public; she is objecting to those icky,
inartistic, overt and clumsy gropings which are merely nasty and
tasteless. How many of us women have been subjected to those
awful dances where the man's only conception of tango is that it
is "really sexy to have a woman draped all over you", so all he
does is maneuver you into some awkward and uncomfortable but
suggestive pose (ignoring line of dance, the music, navigation,
lead/follow etc.), then shuffle himself around and haul you into
yet another uncomfortable and stupid pose, this time gazing
meaningfully into your eyes, and so on with a specially dramatic
pose at the end? This is not dancing, it is not sexy,
suggestive or seductive; it is gross and unpleasant and no fun
at all. Maybe with the circumspection in Japan, this never
becomes an issue for you. But I've suffered through this more
than enough.
Some men I find extraordinarily attractive as dancers but real
turn-offs sexually. To me, if a man does not have the right
scent, he can dance like a god (or Gavito), look like Adonis (or
Adrian Brody), be a master of sparkling wit and sexy innuendo,
and all he will ever be to me is a great dance partner. That's
how I'm wired. As a consequence, I have never aspired to meet
Mr. Right or even Mr. One Night Stand on the dance floor. If a
man is interested, he needs to figure out if it is mutual. I
object when a man assumes that the successful completion of a
gancho means I'm "easy". Many other women share my feelings in
this. Now, I can have a great time playing that seduction game
when it is part of the dance, when the dance does not suffer.
But even in those rare cases when his pheromones fire up my
hormones, if the guy's dance degenerates so he can play grabby
games, then it's over. All the fun is gone.
Yeah, it is hilarious sometimes to be twining legs in very
provocative positions on a public dance floor, and we've all had
our share of dances when we come off the floor all flushed and
breathless for reasons other than the speed of the music. Why
be ashamed of it? It's all part of living life in the most
fully human manner possible. But there are always little
signals going on within the dance that let you know how the
other partner is responding to these little overtures. The guys
whose only intent is copping a feel don't pay attention to those
signals, they assume things that we have not given permission
for regardless of our body language or behaviors, and those of
us who have been sending signals of "Whoa, not so fast, not so
far, it's just a dance" then end up feeling used and slimy.
When I agree to dance with a man, I agree to participate in a
lovely connection with seduction or suggestiveness as possible
parts of the game to a lesser or greater extent. I do not agree
to be mauled, humped or used as a masturbation post. Now,
during the course of the dance, maybe we renegotiate aspects of
what we are willing to do together. Some guys maybe I'd be more
willing to be a bit more, umm, explicit? naughty? with. Some
will be encouraged into a very very open embrace. Sometimes it
is clear that we are understanding the most explicit of moves as
simple physical dance challenges. Sometimes we negotiate a sort
of goof off riff doing "sexy" or "suggestive" moves so asexually
that it becomes quite funny. Maybe we negotiate a continuation
of the game beyond the milonga. But this all comes from that
same listening and sensitivity. We need to read one another's
intentions. Without that, it's not seduction, it's "tango
rape", or at least "tango harassment".
And here's almost the opposite: we dance very close and never
do anything that would look the slightest bit sexy from outside
but it feels like something very special--not from rubbing or
intertwining, but from just the closeness and sharing, the
tightening of the embrace at a crucial moment, the breathing
together, standing still together in the most attentive way
possible. If I were to compare this to sex, I think that I
would say that it is not so much like the sex act itself, but
like those moments of extreme closeness that come after the act.
Or like those moments in a long and successful relationship
when you feel so close to the loved one, so in harmony, that you
can eat a meal together each lifting the fork or water glass in
concert and people at the restaurant ask you which anniversary
you are celebrating, without ever having seen anything so overt
as hand-holding. "Food I ate with you was more than food, wine
I drank wit you was more than wine". Now, to be able to
experience THAT in a three minute dance is pretty special.
Maybe that is what Randy found so sad about the paid dancers.
Those women would never be inspired to work on themselves or
their dance to the point where they could experience that
closeness. They are paying those guys for a service, and to the
guys, as Randy says, "It feels like work". They are ashamed.
These poor women will never have the incentive to bring their
dance up to the level where it can be a *shared* pleasure. They
are paying only for their own pleasure, and thus the young men
withhold that part of themselves that brings the dance to the
next level. The women never get the 3 minute affair, they get a
chaste version of the bathroom stall quickie. They get only the
mundane of both worlds, the best of nothing.
Hyla
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:42:10 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition - respect and boundaries
Along the lines of Hyla's comment about not agreeing to be "mauled,
humped or used as a masturbation post...", I think it does need to be
pointed out that women can be as crass as the men on occasion, although
not necessarily on the dance floor.
A few years back, I was sitting at a milonga chatting with a woman with
whom I was involved at the time. A young female acquaintance with, shall
we say, rather generous endowments positioned herself in front of us,
leaned over at the waist, and proceeded to talk to us while at the same
time giving both of us an entirely too up-close-and-personal view of the
aforementioned endowments. After she left, I looked over at my date and
asked, "Was she propositioning you or me with that display?"
"Both of us, I think," was her reply. Hmmmmmm.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:47:03 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: seduction or imposition
First, to the women that think it is OK, to really like dancing with a man,
but not date him.
One of you mentioned scent. Men can change their scent. Tell the guy and
he can change get collogne, or perhaps stop using it. For ages, men have
been accused of being shallow creatures, ony interested in shallow things,
while women claim to have better guidelines. I used to believe that. But
from my experience with women, they are far shallower then men, when it
comes to dating. The most common reason one is height - worse, many will
dance with a short man, but not date him.
I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, or that you should be dating
those men, they could be slime bags. What I am saying is that if he
REALLY is so bad that you won't even give him a single date as a chance to
prove he is the Mr. Right, then why are you dancing with him? He wants you
for your body, you want him for his dance moves, but you seem to be getting
what you want, while he goes home unfullfilled.
You don't have to date every guy or any guy that asks you to dance, but if
you are single, straight and like the guy enough to dance with, you should
have a better reason than mere height or scent to refuse to give him a
chance. One date is not too much of your time to spend with a guy that you
enjoy dancing with.
The other part is the sexual contact.
Yes, some men don't get enough sensual contact in their life. If they have
no morals, they go to a prostitue. But if they do have morals, they
sometimes go looking for it on the dance floor. The men are generally not
slime bags, instead they are simply lonely and desperate, often because
women have treated them poorly (Like say refusing to even talk to them cause
they are short and have bad taste in collogne.)
Some women also go looking for sensual contact on the dance floor.
The difference however is this:
The men tend to be doing it are single, and shy. They go to dance in the
hope of meeting someone.
Single Women don't have this problem, because when they want some sensual
contact, they go to a single's bar and get whatever sensual contact they
desire, usually from the best looking, most in demand man they can find, who
did the same thing every day last week.
But some women do look for the sensual contact. The women doing it are
MARRIED. They don't want to take it any further than dance, and instead of
leaving their asexual marriage or trying to fix their marriage, they go to
Tango to get what they want. I pity them. They need a dose of courage.
------------------------
So before you get all rude to the men, keep in mind that unlike you, they
can not simply go out and get the release they need. Chances are, they
might have gone YEARS without even cuddling with a women. They quite
probably have not had a women 1/2 as lovely as you ever consider them. And
keep in mind that there are women out there just as desperate as the men.
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:16:05 -0400
From: "Steininger, Francine" <FSteininger@IIE.ORG>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Wait a minute here - are you saying women are supposed to consider each good dance partner as a possible "Mr Right" just because they have a =
nice dance connection??? I'm sure there are plenty of men out there who would not want to be in that position with the women they dance with!!! =
and I suspect when the other writer mentioned "scent" I think she may have also meant more than just smell, but the chemistry, you can just =
tell if that person is likely to "click" with you or not. And to think he goes home unfulfilled when he's had great dances all night? That's =
insulting (Don't forget the guy who rates a great tango as 90 and sex as 70 - although maybe, as someone else suggested, he should try close =
embrace ;-). Sometimes men and women dance with others just because... of many reasons, the next step to a physical/romantic entanglement is a =
huge one, and certainly not a necessary one even if the dance is nice. I should think the man or woman should be able to decide on their own if =
they want to "waste the time" of one date... using their own metrics and not yours.
And of all your assumptions about when, why and how women or men want/get sensual contact, well its a bit shallow to lump everyone in the =
categories you define.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:47 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] seduction or imposition
First, to the women that think it is OK, to really like dancing with a man,
but not date him.
One of you mentioned scent. Men can change their scent. Tell the guy and
he can change get collogne, or perhaps stop using it. For ages, men have
been accused of being shallow creatures, ony interested in shallow things,
while women claim to have better guidelines. I used to believe that. But
from my experience with women, they are far shallower then men, when it
comes to dating. The most common reason one is height - worse, many will
dance with a short man, but not date him.
I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, or that you should be dating
those men, they could be slime bags. What I am saying is that if he
REALLY is so bad that you won't even give him a single date as a chance to
prove he is the Mr. Right, then why are you dancing with him? He wants you
for your body, you want him for his dance moves, but you seem to be getting
what you want, while he goes home unfullfilled.
You don't have to date every guy or any guy that asks you to dance, but if
you are single, straight and like the guy enough to dance with, you should
have a better reason than mere height or scent to refuse to give him a
chance. One date is not too much of your time to spend with a guy that you
enjoy dancing with.
The other part is the sexual contact.
Yes, some men don't get enough sensual contact in their life. If they have
no morals, they go to a prostitue. But if they do have morals, they
sometimes go looking for it on the dance floor. The men are generally not
slime bags, instead they are simply lonely and desperate, often because
women have treated them poorly (Like say refusing to even talk to them cause
they are short and have bad taste in collogne.)
Some women also go looking for sensual contact on the dance floor.
The difference however is this:
The men tend to be doing it are single, and shy. They go to dance in the
hope of meeting someone.
Single Women don't have this problem, because when they want some sensual
contact, they go to a single's bar and get whatever sensual contact they
desire, usually from the best looking, most in demand man they can find, who
did the same thing every day last week.
But some women do look for the sensual contact. The women doing it are
MARRIED. They don't want to take it any further than dance, and instead of
leaving their asexual marriage or trying to fix their marriage, they go to
Tango to get what they want. I pity them. They need a dose of courage.
------------------------
So before you get all rude to the men, keep in mind that unlike you, they
can not simply go out and get the release they need. Chances are, they
might have gone YEARS without even cuddling with a women. They quite
probably have not had a women 1/2 as lovely as you ever consider them. And
keep in mind that there are women out there just as desperate as the men.
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:39:12 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
This has *got* to be a troll. Is this our "friend" with the multiple
aliases trying to start another flame war?
Nothing to see here, move along....
Michael
Tango Bellingham
A Coleman wrote:
> First, to the women that think it is OK, to really like dancing with a man,
> but not date him.
>
> One of you mentioned scent. Men can change their scent. Tell the guy
> and
> he can change get collogne, or perhaps stop using it. For ages, men have
> been accused of being shallow creatures, ony interested in shallow things,
> while women claim to have better guidelines. I used to believe that. But
> from my experience with women, they are far shallower then men, when it
> comes to dating. The most common reason one is height - worse, many will
> dance with a short man, but not date him.
>
> I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, or that you should be dating
> those men, they could be slime bags. What I am saying is that if he
> REALLY is so bad that you won't even give him a single date as a chance to
> prove he is the Mr. Right, then why are you dancing with him? He wants
> you
> for your body, you want him for his dance moves, but you seem to be getting
> what you want, while he goes home unfullfilled.
>
> You don't have to date every guy or any guy that asks you to dance, but if
> you are single, straight and like the guy enough to dance with, you should
> have a better reason than mere height or scent to refuse to give him a
> chance. One date is not too much of your time to spend with a guy that
> you
> enjoy dancing with.
>
>
> The other part is the sexual contact.
>
> Yes, some men don't get enough sensual contact in their life. If they have
> no morals, they go to a prostitue. But if they do have morals, they
> sometimes go looking for it on the dance floor. The men are generally not
> slime bags, instead they are simply lonely and desperate, often because
> women have treated them poorly (Like say refusing to even talk to them
> cause
> they are short and have bad taste in collogne.)
>
> Some women also go looking for sensual contact on the dance floor.
>
> The difference however is this:
>
> The men tend to be doing it are single, and shy. They go to dance in the
> hope of meeting someone.
>
> Single Women don't have this problem, because when they want some sensual
> contact, they go to a single's bar and get whatever sensual contact they
> desire, usually from the best looking, most in demand man they can find,
> who
> did the same thing every day last week.
>
> But some women do look for the sensual contact. The women doing it are
> MARRIED. They don't want to take it any further than dance, and instead of
> leaving their asexual marriage or trying to fix their marriage, they go to
> Tango to get what they want. I pity them. They need a dose of courage.
>
> ------------------------
>
> So before you get all rude to the men, keep in mind that unlike you, they
> can not simply go out and get the release they need. Chances are, they
> might have gone YEARS without even cuddling with a women. They quite
> probably have not had a women 1/2 as lovely as you ever consider them. And
> keep in mind that there are women out there just as desperate as the men.
>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:02:06 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Like I said in the original email, no I am not saying they are supposed to
consider any guy as a possible Mr. Right just because they have a nice dance
connection. If I had to explain further, I would go with:
If you are single, and the guy is single, and the guy wants to take you on a
date, and you like dancing with him, then if you do not want to go on a date
with him you should examine why you don't want to date him. Either A) you
are a shallow person or B) he is not the kind of guy you really want to
dance with.
As for the scent, she did not say Chemistry, she said scent. You , like
most peopel, are assuming and attributing far more reasonable motives and
words than what she expressed. People always assume that women are not
shallow, and frankly, that is not true at all in my experience. If she
really meant Chemistry, not just scent, then she should have said so. But
even so, chemistry is a word often abused by people.
Often people say "We have no chemistry", when they really meant "You are the
uggliest person I have ever seen.", or "I don't date people as
fat/short/pale/... as you"
Yes, chemistry can be a real, "deep" reason to not date a person, but NO,
you can't find out that kind of chemistry in a milonga. That kind of
chemistry takes time to develop either way, and takes more talking then
typically happens at a dance. Like say, on a date.
People can of course decide on their own if they want to waste the time of
one date. The problem is that if you go around with shallow measures of who
you are going to date, you should not be surprised if people call you
shallow. For ages, women called men shallow for saying things like "I
only date women with large breasts." The men have the right to do that, but
the women have the right to get insulted, and to tell the men not to be
rude, and to explain why they were being shallow.
Similarly, when women start talking about shallow reasons not to date men,
(like not like the collogne he wears) I have the right to get insulted and
to tell them don't be so rude, and to explain why you are being shallow.
Also, there is actuall good advice for both men and women here. People
often don't realize they are being shallow, or the consequences of it. If
a man only dates thin women with large breasts, he will miss out on a lot of
beautiful, loving, kind women that are not so thin, and have more reasonable
body shapes. Similarly, when women make shallow choices about who to date,
they generally end up restricting themselves to total scumbags and wondering
"why all men are scum." No, it is not all men, just the ones you agree to
date.
Finally, I did not lump everyone into those categories. There is a
difference between saying EVERYONE is either Dumb or a Genius, which is what
you accused me of doing, and saying that some people are Dumb and some are
Genius.
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 15:11:55 -0400
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Sounds like this writer is venting some hidden PERSONAL agendas !!!
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] seduction or imposition
> First, to the women that think it is OK, to really like dancing with a man,
> but not date him.
>
> One of you mentioned scent. Men can change their scent. Tell the guy and
> he can change get collogne, or perhaps stop using it. For ages, men have
> been accused of being shallow creatures, ony interested in shallow things,
> while women claim to have better guidelines. I used to believe that. But
> from my experience with women, they are far shallower then men, when it
> comes to dating. The most common reason one is height - worse, many will
> dance with a short man, but not date him.
>
> I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, or that you should be dating
> those men, they could be slime bags. What I am saying is that if he
> REALLY is so bad that you won't even give him a single date as a chance to
> prove he is the Mr. Right, then why are you dancing with him? He wants you
> for your body, you want him for his dance moves, but you seem to be getting
> what you want, while he goes home unfullfilled.
>
> You don't have to date every guy or any guy that asks you to dance, but if
> you are single, straight and like the guy enough to dance with, you should
> have a better reason than mere height or scent to refuse to give him a
> chance. One date is not too much of your time to spend with a guy that you
> enjoy dancing with.
>
>
> The other part is the sexual contact.
>
> Yes, some men don't get enough sensual contact in their life. If they have
> no morals, they go to a prostitue. But if they do have morals, they
> sometimes go looking for it on the dance floor. The men are generally not
> slime bags, instead they are simply lonely and desperate, often because
> women have treated them poorly (Like say refusing to even talk to them cause
> they are short and have bad taste in collogne.)
>
> Some women also go looking for sensual contact on the dance floor.
>
> The difference however is this:
>
> The men tend to be doing it are single, and shy. They go to dance in the
> hope of meeting someone.
>
> Single Women don't have this problem, because when they want some sensual
> contact, they go to a single's bar and get whatever sensual contact they
> desire, usually from the best looking, most in demand man they can find, who
> did the same thing every day last week.
>
> But some women do look for the sensual contact. The women doing it are
> MARRIED. They don't want to take it any further than dance, and instead of
> leaving their asexual marriage or trying to fix their marriage, they go to
> Tango to get what they want. I pity them. They need a dose of courage.
>
> ------------------------
>
> So before you get all rude to the men, keep in mind that unlike you, they
> can not simply go out and get the release they need. Chances are, they
> might have gone YEARS without even cuddling with a women. They quite
> probably have not had a women 1/2 as lovely as you ever consider them. And
> keep in mind that there are women out there just as desperate as the men.
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:35:20 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Geez, ya think? *wink*
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
John Gleeson wrote:
> Sounds like this writer is venting some hidden PERSONAL agendas !!!
>
> John G.
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:50:43 -0400
From: Stephane Fymat <stephane_fymat@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Oh, I think you can know chemistry instantly at the milonga. In Argentina,
they talk about "piel" as the physical "something" between two dancers, that
no one can explain, but that many have felt. I call it the "skin thing".
Even if you have absolutely nothing in common with this person, don't even
speak the same language, etc., "piel" can still move you powerfully.
Stephane
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:02 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] seduction or imposition
Like I said in the original email, no I am not saying they are supposed to
consider any guy as a possible Mr. Right just because they have a nice dance
connection. If I had to explain further, I would go with:
If you are single, and the guy is single, and the guy wants to take you on a
date, and you like dancing with him, then if you do not want to go on a date
with him you should examine why you don't want to date him. Either A) you
are a shallow person or B) he is not the kind of guy you really want to
dance with.
As for the scent, she did not say Chemistry, she said scent. You , like
most peopel, are assuming and attributing far more reasonable motives and
words than what she expressed. People always assume that women are not
shallow, and frankly, that is not true at all in my experience. If she
really meant Chemistry, not just scent, then she should have said so. But
even so, chemistry is a word often abused by people.
Often people say "We have no chemistry", when they really meant "You are the
uggliest person I have ever seen.", or "I don't date people as
fat/short/pale/... as you"
Yes, chemistry can be a real, "deep" reason to not date a person, but NO,
you can't find out that kind of chemistry in a milonga. That kind of
chemistry takes time to develop either way, and takes more talking then
typically happens at a dance. Like say, on a date.
People can of course decide on their own if they want to waste the time of
one date. The problem is that if you go around with shallow measures of who
you are going to date, you should not be surprised if people call you
shallow. For ages, women called men shallow for saying things like "I
only date women with large breasts." The men have the right to do that, but
the women have the right to get insulted, and to tell the men not to be
rude, and to explain why they were being shallow.
Similarly, when women start talking about shallow reasons not to date men,
(like not like the collogne he wears) I have the right to get insulted and
to tell them don't be so rude, and to explain why you are being shallow.
Also, there is actuall good advice for both men and women here. People
often don't realize they are being shallow, or the consequences of it. If
a man only dates thin women with large breasts, he will miss out on a lot of
beautiful, loving, kind women that are not so thin, and have more reasonable
body shapes. Similarly, when women make shallow choices about who to date,
they generally end up restricting themselves to total scumbags and wondering
"why all men are scum." No, it is not all men, just the ones you agree to
date.
Finally, I did not lump everyone into those categories. There is a
difference between saying EVERYONE is either Dumb or a Genius, which is what
you accused me of doing, and saying that some people are Dumb and some are
Genius.
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:56:34 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: seduction or imposition
Michael at Tango Bellingham wrote:
> This has *got* to be a troll. Is this our "friend" with the multiple
> aliases trying to start another flame war?
Not unless the guy we both have in mind had a brain transplant.
> Nothing to see here, move along....
And John Gleeson wrote:
> Sounds like this writer is venting some hidden PERSONAL agendas !!!
Jeez, I thought there was nothing hidden about Mr. Coleman's email,
and there's little wrong in being personal.
OTOH, he makes many assumptions, gross generalities, absolute statements
and errors of reasoning. In fact, I think he makes the same mistakes
he accuses women of making. But what's a bit of projection between
friends? ;)
But before you all lump me into the category of post-feminist wimp,
there's an essential kernel of truth in his words: women are human
beings not angels, and we shouldn't allow ourselves to imagine either
genders comes with intrinsic moral superiority, no matter what our
mothers may have worked so hard to instill in us. After all, rolling
around in the muck of passion is (or should be) an equal opportunity
sport.
The bottom line, is that moral superiority basically boils down to a
chain of rationalizations that allow one to judge others unacceptable,
and it's a fact of life no one can ever truly love what they find
unacceptable.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:30:47 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Seduction or imposition
It is most interesting to read this current exchange. Two points come to
mind, the why of dancing Tango and the second, and related the relationship on
the floor. The caveat I would like to star with is we all start with the
"illusion of the central position". That is to say that we base our opinions and
judgments on what we know and who we are. How broad we want to expand our
thinking is relative. Why we do things is based on our central position.
With that said, I look at Tango as a beginner, I haven't been to Argentina.
I have had limited exposure to the teachers from there, although I have taken
many different workshops over the last year and a half, as well as classes,
attended milongas. That is my base or central position.
I arrived at Tango because my wife wanted to dance and wanted me to learn.
We tried swing, salsa and ballroom; none of them were working very well. Most
students were faster than I in learning the patterns and hearing the music.
To put it mildly, it was not a fun 3 years. I tried American Tango, and while
the music was better is some respect, the expectations and patterns were still
the issue. I asked my instructor who also taught Argentine Tango what the
differences were. She proceed to show me in a private class the difference
emphasizing that anything you learned in Argentine Tango could be transferred to
other dance forms, but the reverse was not true.
To say the least, that lesson hooked me. The music, the connection, the
flexibility, the variety, everything clicked. But it was the dance that made the
difference, the experience with dancing with different levels of follows; the
feedback or lack of it was fascinating and still is. It is an addiction.
Salon style was the basic style being taught with open embrace being the primary
method, although closed was introduced. Through the workshops, I have also
been introduced to milongero including apilado, each with their appropriate
challenges. I have learned to adapt to their basics. But I am still learning and
wish to learn more, I don't intend to exclude any style, though I fully expect
that at some time in the future I will settle on a particular style.
This brings me to a particular point of my learning. I was told that while I
can control the style I wish to dance, it is the follow that sets the stage.
As I present myself for a particular dance, it is the follow who initially
decides how close she wishes to dance. I do not pull her closer than she
desires. If she wishes to dance in an open embrace that is what we will dance
(considering available dance space), as the music progresses this might become a
close embrace salon style. Likewise, if she wishes, and I wish she might come
to a button-to-button embrace, At that point or slightly before I can control
how close I want to be. But the key point is that it is the option I am to
allow the follow, since I know my comfort level and dance ability, but I don't
know her's. So I will not presume. Closer is always possible if a mutual
comfort level is felt, but if the dance starts in an uncomfortable position, it is
hard to recover. Since I prefer, as I believe we all do, the dance is to be
enjoyed not fought; mutual agreement with deference to the follow is the best
path.
Bill
Seattle
