5137 Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything,
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 04:09:51 -0400
From: lgmoseley@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything,
be discouraged?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini asked a question and Manuel answered. I shall give my own answer and it
is different from the one given by Manuel.
?
In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should never cross
automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically (unless
she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she
wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice).
?
The general reason is that at the end of every step (at the point at which
both partners have 'gathered', 'collected' or whatever word you use to
describe the part of a step when the weight has been transferred to the man's
front foot (lady's back). On every step, the lady will have no idea what
is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is commonly
only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait.
?
For example, if she is in the cross, he may step forward, backward,
sideways, swivel, turn his shoulder so that she swivels, lift her for a
colgada or whatever.? He? may be about to walk forward inside, outside,
in parallel, or in crossed. He may be about to lead a cunita, a forward
ocho, a backwards ocho, a forward giro, a backwards giro, a front or
rear sacada, ochos cortadas, or whatever.? That is part of the richness of
Tango. If she has chosen to do her own thing, the partners cease to be a
couple and become two individuals ? usually uncoordinated and
non-communicating individuals.
?
Tango is, in my view, a conversation between two bodies, but without
words.? As in all conversations, the content of the communication comes in
the surprises. If, in a normal conversation? you could predict exactly
what? your interlocutor would say in all circumstances, I would not describe
it as a conversation. It would be (a) a series of set-piece monologues?
(b) non-communicating, and (c) boring. The conversational element
occurs when something unexpected enters into the exchange. If the lady does
not know what is coming next (until it is led), everything is unexpected.
?
With regard to the cross, if the lady crosses automatically it cuts down on
the richness of the potential conversation. If she does? it as a response to
a lead, it is part of the conversation ? like saying ?I see?, ?Yes,
but?, ?On the other hand?, ?Therefore? or any of the other
connections that we? use in verbal conversations.? Any of those phrases make
sense only in response to an utterance by the partner. They make no sense in
isolation. Similarly, a cross makes no sense in isolation.
?
Of course, at milongas one sometimes dances with ladies who have been taught
to cross whenever they get the opportunity. If the man wishes to lead in that
situation, he has to treat it like any of the other variables at play ? the
closeness of the embrace, the balance of the lady, the conditions on the
floor, the music, the state of inebriation of either partner, etc. and
do something about it.? For such ladies, a simple solution is not to give
her an opportunity to cross until you wish it to happen. One way of doing that
is to crowd the outside of her right thigh with the outside of your right
thigh. In that situation she will be unable to cross. When you stop the
crowding and make space for her, she will cross ? and you will be ready for
it.
?
Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless? otherwise led)
and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more conversational
and communicative possibilities. I?d happily discuss on another occasion the
many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present, but I have
rabbited on long enough for one posting.
?
Brazos tangueros
?
Laurie (Laurence)
24? ?August 2007
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Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 11:51:07 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic
anything, be discouraged?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
People keep talking at cross-purposes, but Laurie's coments below
point out that things are different for different people, different
situations, different levels and different styles. What is necessary
for a beginner is insufficient for an intermediate, and doesn't makes
sense for an advanced.
Most teachers tend to analyze things teach at THEIR level rather than
teaching in layers appropriate for the different levels. And, judging
>from this list, tango teachers are an analytical, over-educated, over-
verbal bunchh
RULE-LEAD vs AXIS-LEAD CROSS
The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for
beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to
learn than feeling for what signals the cross. For more experienced
people the "RULE" applies in the sense that it is such a common move,
she just comes to expect the cross whenever he goes outside.
Therefore, the not-cross becomes a critical lead.
AXIS:
A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross
using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the "in-line" cross
and very subtle "right-side crosses" as well as, leading the "not-
cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses
with great subtlety.
SPIRAL:
I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I
find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the
men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the
axis. For me, the spiral is how the man FOLLOWS the cross, not leads
it. This is a very luscious connection that feels very connected.
However it is an adv-beginner or intermediate skill.
Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find
that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE-
LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes
lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow.
Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE-
LEAD is mental and analytical.
I do everything possible to keep people moving, in their physical
bodies, and not thinking too much.
I'm in the school of "Lead the cross; Lead the not-cross". This has
the advantage that the ladies are taught to wait on the cusp of the
decision, so the lead-follow can be more subtle. As followers get
better,
NUEVO ANALYSIS
Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical
teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to
use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a
beginner. They can hardly stand up, let alone learn ochos, and the
giro has to come after ochos.
In any case, depending on the situation, the giro is frequently
distorted, (the cross is sort of a front ocho, theoretically) so only
the curious really care whether the cross is part of the giro, a
structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few
things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers?
On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:09 AM, lgmoseley@aol.com wrote:
> ...In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should
> never cross
>
> automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically
> (unless
>
> she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she
>
> wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice).
>
>
> ... On every step, the lady will have no idea what
>
> is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is
> commonly
>
> only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait.
>
>
> ...Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless
> otherwise led)
>
> and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more
> conversational
>
> and communicative possibilities. I?d happily discuss on another
> occasion the
>
> many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present,
> but I have
>
> rabbited on long enough for one posting.
>
> Laurie (Laurence)
>
> 24? ?August 2007
>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 20:35:30 +0200
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic
anything, be discouraged?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: chrisjj <chrisjj@chrisjj.com>
<4db2592c0708261135n84b043fn57cabf4aaad18f1a@mail.gmail.com>
> I find that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE-
> LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD.
I'd guess Tom that's because your students have an able teacher.
This issue is simply Easy to Learn v. Easy to Teach. The poor teacher
finds it much easier to teach a rule instead of the lead, whether for
cross, giro, or any other step for which an analytic explanation has
been fabricated.
> whether the cross is part of the giro, a
> structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few
> things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers?
Everyone who buys those tango scientology seminars, evidently ;)
Chris
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:51 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything,be
discouraged?
People keep talking at cross-purposes, but Laurie's coments below
point out that things are different for different people, different
situations, different levels and different styles. What is necessary
for a beginner is insufficient for an intermediate, and doesn't makes
sense for an advanced.
Most teachers tend to analyze things teach at THEIR level rather than
teaching in layers appropriate for the different levels. And, judging
>from this list, tango teachers are an analytical, over-educated, over-
verbal bunchh
RULE-LEAD vs AXIS-LEAD CROSS
The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for
beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to
learn than feeling for what signals the cross. For more experienced
people the "RULE" applies in the sense that it is such a common move,
she just comes to expect the cross whenever he goes outside.
Therefore, the not-cross becomes a critical lead.
AXIS:
A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross
using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the "in-line" cross
and very subtle "right-side crosses" as well as, leading the "not-
cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses
with great subtlety.
SPIRAL:
I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I
find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the
men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the
axis. For me, the spiral is how the man FOLLOWS the cross, not leads
it. This is a very luscious connection that feels very connected.
However it is an adv-beginner or intermediate skill.
Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find
that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE-
LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes
lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow.
Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE-
LEAD is mental and analytical.
I do everything possible to keep people moving, in their physical
bodies, and not thinking too much.
I'm in the school of "Lead the cross; Lead the not-cross". This has
the advantage that the ladies are taught to wait on the cusp of the
decision, so the lead-follow can be more subtle. As followers get
better,
NUEVO ANALYSIS
Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical
teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to
use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a
beginner. They can hardly stand up, let alone learn ochos, and the
giro has to come after ochos.
In any case, depending on the situation, the giro is frequently
distorted, (the cross is sort of a front ocho, theoretically) so only
the curious really care whether the cross is part of the giro, a
structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few
things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers?
On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:09 AM, lgmoseley@aol.com wrote:
> ...In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should
> never cross
>
> automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically
> (unless
>
> she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she
>
> wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice).
>
>
> ... On every step, the lady will have no idea what
>
> is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is
> commonly
>
> only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait.
>
>
> ...Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless
> otherwise led)
>
> and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more
> conversational
>
> and communicative possibilities. I?d happily discuss on another
> occasion the
>
> many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present,
> but I have
>
> rabbited on long enough for one posting.
>
> Laurie (Laurence)
>
> 24? ?August 2007
>
