5018  Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:25:25 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First
To: tango-l@mit.edu

1st, the snow. I live here. It was amazing. You can read about it on
my blog. (https://tangospam.typepad.com) It was totally bizarre to look
out my balcony doors and see a blizzard of white. As for the Gardel
rumor, never heard it, and it is not even be mentioned here at all.

2nd, the toe first and then to smooth to the side is taught by many
people. (If we are talking about the same thing) Mimi Santapa teaches
it, so did Miguel Balmaceda, and many others. When people walk flat on
their feet in tango it makes them heavy and difficult to move. Women
also dance with the weight on their big toes. It makes you very light.
You must have your balance so you don't fall. (Please read this as
weight on the big toes and not as dancing on your tip toes)

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:38:04 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

MASTERS

A master tango dancer has a lot of control over their foot placement.

They can choose whether to land heel or ball first, depending on the
technical needs of the situation. Also, if you watch, the master
dancer may land flat-footed, and it takes a discerning eye to
determine whether they are landing first on the heel or first on the
toe.

Any high-end ballroom dancer would say the same thing.

As I said before, control of weight over heel OR ball allows for a
greater control over how fast or whether the follower collects. Using
only one or the takes away options.


BEGINNERS.

The problem with teaching beginners toe-first is that it imposes a
distracting detail on them. Worrying about that specific detail takes
away learning more important things like balance and just moving
around the floor. It is far better to start with a natural walk and
emphasize posture, balance, walking in a straight line, leading &
following.

I teach many men how to dance tango. These are "normal" guys, not
necessarily previous dancers or young athletes. The first problem is
just getting them to feel comfortable and competent enough to stick
around for more than a few lessons.

As we all know, tango takes a number of years to perfect, so they'll
get plenty of chances later.


On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:25 PM, Deby Novitz wrote:

> 2nd, the toe first and then to smooth to the side is taught by many
> people. (If we are talking about the same thing) Mimi Santapa teaches
> it, so did Miguel Balmaceda, and many others. When people walk
> flat on
> their feet in tango it makes them heavy and difficult to move. Women
> also dance with the weight on their big toes. It makes you very
> light.
> You must have your balance so you don't fall. (Please read this as
> weight on the big toes and not as dancing on your tip toes)

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:11:54 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>


Tom is correct when he says that most good Tango dancers use either heel or ball first
depending on the situation and which is more appropriate. But the point is they donbt need to
think about it. Because of training and practice, both feel equally natural and easy to use. The
question is which should be taught? Unlike Tom, Ibm of the view that ball-first should be taught
and some of the reasons are:

1. Ball first produces a far more elegant walk and style of dancing than heel first.

2. Ball first helps beginner students to learn to walk with a forward posture. Heel first tends to
produce a backward posture, which is what we have in Ballroom Tango.

3. Students will quickly understand the difference between dancing and walking. I know many
people who, even with 5 years experience, still walk the Tango and have never bdancedb a
step.

4. Students who are taught heel first will be stuck with it and will never be able to dance ball
first. It would be nice to think, as Tom does, that students will continue to learn for a number of
years. Unfortunately, we all know that isnbt the case.

5. Students who are taught ball first will easily be able to use heel first, when the situation
arises, without the need for additional instruction. Itbs more natural and we can all do it already b why teach it? And, as Tom correctly states b& busing only one or the takes away
optionsb.

6. Unlike Tom, I donbt think learning ball first imposes a bdistracting detailb. I think itbs a
fundamental aspect in teaching students to dance Tango. And the sooner, the better.

Keith, HK



On Wed Jul 11 8:38 , Tom Stermitz sent:

>MASTERS
>
>A master tango dancer has a lot of control over their foot placement.
>
>They can choose whether to land heel or ball first, depending on the
>technical needs of the situation. Also, if you watch, the master
>dancer may land flat-footed, and it takes a discerning eye to
>determine whether they are landing first on the heel or first on the
>toe.
>
>Any high-end ballroom dancer would say the same thing.
>
>As I said before, control of weight over heel OR ball allows for a
>greater control over how fast or whether the follower collects. Using
>only one or the takes away options.
>
>
>BEGINNERS.
>
>The problem with teaching beginners toe-first is that it imposes a
>distracting detail on them. Worrying about that specific detail takes
>away learning more important things like balance and just moving
>around the floor. It is far better to start with a natural walk and
>emphasize posture, balance, walking in a straight line, leading &
>following.
>
>I teach many men how to dance tango. These are "normal" guys, not
>necessarily previous dancers or young athletes. The first problem is
>just getting them to feel comfortable and competent enough to stick
>around for more than a few lessons.
>
>As we all know, tango takes a number of years to perfect, so they'll
>get plenty of chances later.

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:26:27 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

[Keith wrote...]> 1. Ball first produces a far more elegant walk and style of dancing than heel first.
Yes, but only because walking ball first forces you to land with a straight leg. It's the straight leg that gives the elegance. It's equally as elegant IMO to land heel first, as long as you do it with a straight leg.

J
TangoMoments.com

Missed the show?? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:45:24 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
format=flowed

We are in agreement on the main technical point, i.e. dancers should
be skilled at multiple techniques.

Actually, we both agree that carrying your weight or balance forward
over the balls is important. I just want them to walk "normally" and
hit the ground heels first rather than reaching with the toes.

Stylistic disagreements are subjective. Neither heels nor balls is
inherently more or less elegant.

Our most important disagreement is with respect to methodologies for
teaching beginners. I claim (based on over 10 years of experience)
that you get better progress and retention if you work with the
skills they have when they walk in the door. In this case, "normal,
sidewalk walking", which I truly believe is a better foundation for
learning tango than trying to teach a new, specific detail of foot
placement.

I certainly disagree that people who learn heels first are stuck with
it forever; that depends on training over their tango career, not
their first year experience. In contrast, bad posture deforms their
technique through time, like a flaw in a growing crystal, and it is
REALLY difficult to unlearn later on.

On Jul 10, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Keith wrote:

>
> Tom is correct when he says that most good Tango dancers use
> either heel or ball first
> depending on the situation and which is more appropriate. But the
> point is they don?t need to
> think about it. Because of training and practice, both feel
> equally natural and easy to use. The
> question is which should be taught? Unlike Tom, I?m of the view
> that ball-first should be taught
> and some of the reasons are:
>
> 1. Ball first produces a far more elegant walk and style of
> dancing than heel first.
>
> 2. Ball first helps beginner students to learn to walk with a
> forward posture. Heel first tends to
> produce a backward posture, which is what we have in Ballroom Tango.
>
> 3. Students will quickly understand the difference between dancing
> and walking. I know many
> people who, even with 5 years experience, still walk the Tango
> and have never ?danced? a
> step.
>
> 4. Students who are taught heel first will be stuck with it and
> will never be able to dance ball
> first. It would be nice to think, as Tom does, that students will
> continue to learn for a number of
> years. Unfortunately, we all know that isn?t the case.
>
> 5. Students who are taught ball first will easily be able to use
> heel first, when the situation
> arises, without the need for additional instruction. It?s more
> natural and we can all do it already ? why teach it? And, as Tom
> correctly states ? ?using only one or the takes away
> options?.
>
> 6. Unlike Tom, I don?t think learning ball first imposes a
> ?distracting detail?. I think it?s a
> fundamental aspect in teaching students to dance Tango. And the
> sooner, the better.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
>
> On Wed Jul 11 8:38 , Tom Stermitz sent:
>
>> MASTERS
>>
>> A master tango dancer has a lot of control over their foot placement.
>>
>> They can choose whether to land heel or ball first, depending on the
>> technical needs of the situation. Also, if you watch, the master
>> dancer may land flat-footed, and it takes a discerning eye to
>> determine whether they are landing first on the heel or first on the
>> toe.
>>
>> Any high-end ballroom dancer would say the same thing.
>>
>> As I said before, control of weight over heel OR ball allows for a
>> greater control over how fast or whether the follower collects. Using
>> only one or the takes away options.
>>
>>
>> BEGINNERS.
>>
>> The problem with teaching beginners toe-first is that it imposes a
>> distracting detail on them. Worrying about that specific detail takes
>> away learning more important things like balance and just moving
>> around the floor. It is far better to start with a natural walk and
>> emphasize posture, balance, walking in a straight line, leading &
>> following.
>>
>> I teach many men how to dance tango. These are "normal" guys, not
>> necessarily previous dancers or young athletes. The first problem is
>> just getting them to feel comfortable and competent enough to stick
>> around for more than a few lessons.
>>
>> As we all know, tango takes a number of years to perfect, so they'll
>> get plenty of chances later.
>
>

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:09:26 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Snow in Buenos Aires - Toe First
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Jay,

I suggest you stand facing the mirror of your local dance school and then walk forward using the 2 alternatives of heel first or ball first with the feet turned slightly out and landing on the outside edge of the ball. I agree you need the straight leg, with either style. If you still think heel first looks equally elegant, then fine - stick with it.

Keith, HK


On Wed Jul 11 13:26 , Jay Rabe sent:

>[Keith wrote...]> 1. Ball first produces a far more elegant walk and style of dancing than heel first.
>Yes, but only because walking ball first forces you to land with a straight leg. It's the straight leg that gives the elegance. It's equally as elegant IMO to land heel first, as long as you do it with a straight leg.
>
> J
> TangoMoments.com
>
>Missed the show?? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.