4480 Social Tango, pre 1994
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:08:40 -0500
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Tom, et al,
Hope you are doing well -- we've mentioned you to several visitors from
Colorado who turned up in our classes or practicas.
I guess we have to repeat this discussion every time a few newbies join
the List.
The term milonguero *as a style of dancing* did not exist in Buenos
Aires before 1993 or 1994, according to our experience. If anyone who
was dancing there before 1993 has evidence otherwise, please speak up.
We visited BsAs for about a month at a time in 1987, 90, 91, 92, 94 and
98; in 1994 (93?-- we weren't there in 93) Susana Miller began teaching
and * heavily* promoting the term for close embrace style of dancing,
mostly Tete's version, as the *only authentic social tango*. Dancing in
a close embrace definitely existed before our first trip, but without
any bells and whistles;we had heard the term "confiteria" occasionally.
At places like Regin (now El Beso) and Salon Argentina and other venues
in the center that was definitely the preferred style. We noticed only
salidas, walking, cadencias and weight changes, and back 8's. Not even
front 8s or 8s cortados. Plus no teachers even acknowledged that style,
much less taught it.
Meanwhile in the neighborhoods, like Mataderos and Villa Urquiza, a more
open, or actually very slightly in&out style (in for walking moves, a
couple of inches out for turning steps) was, and I hope, still is,
happening. See old videos of Fino and Teresa. This included sacadas,
turns, floor boleos, turns, etc, only "on the floor" techniques, but
never high boleos, jumps, or anything disruptive. This was the style
used by virtually everyone whose dancing was admired, and by all
teachers pre 1993 or 4. A large number of these dancers were (are?) very
very good -- see the film TangoBar with Raul Julia. Al and I knew and
studied with 4 of the couples in the "Como Dios manda" scene. More
dramatic (fantasia) moves were only used for exhibitions (by non-stage
dancers as well as professionals) and were strictly warned against for
use in the milongas by all teachers, including stage dancers.
Eduardo Arquimbau began teaching his club-style sometime in the early
90s, but originally he did not stress close embrace. Previously to his
classes we had found a similar very rythmic style of dancing was a
natural response to us to certain music, D'arienzo, Biaggi, of course.
In the pre-94 years, "milonguero" or "milonguera" *seemed* (I may have
misunderstood the context) to refer to anyone who went dancing
frequently; I didn't notice a pejorative meaning although it was
understood that in the past it had that interpretation. In any case, I
wonder what term we can use for those of us who dance socially in
whatever style but actually live a pretty responsible lifestyle (by
choice, age or accident)????
And those who dance only "milonguero" style, but who are not layabouts
and womanizers, what do you call yourselves?
And those who insist this is the *only* social style, have you ever been
to Sunderland, Sin Rumbo, and other milongas outside the center of town?
Al and I are planning a trip to BsAs in November and are eager
(anxious?) to see for ourselves the extent of change since we were last
there in 1998.
NEW TOPIC: Recent History
I am curious about the introduction of such moves as colgadas, volcadas,
and other new close embrace and/or nuevo techniques. Does anyone know
who invented what???
Abrazos to all from the Global Warming capital of the world.
Barbara
www.tangobar-productions.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:42:02 -0600
From: nina@earthnet.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Greetings, everyone,
The story of "milonguero" style that Barbara Garvey (always a delight to hear
from you, Barbara!) is exactly how I learned it while living in BsAs. I know
this story from a person who was very intrenched in then newly-emerging tango
scene in Buenos Aires when very few people danced.
I think that it is very important to keep these stories. They help new dancers
understand what is what in tango. They alo keep the integrity of the evolution
of tango.
In my NSHO, the true keeper of the stories of tango is Daniel Trenner. I hope
that he returns to touring one day. Daniel collected the stories and shared
them as he traveled the world, and they were accurate stories because he talked
with those people himself and knew first hand what happenned in the recent
evolution of tango and how.
As far as colgadas, volcadas, etc. go, I know that Maestro Gavito danced his own
particular volcada - very stylish, very special - and it got a LOT of attention
in the world of tango. It became his signature movement.
And Julio Balmaceda and Corina de la Rosa danced colgadas many years ago in
their own performances, long before they and other teachers were teaching it in
the classes.
However, in tango, there is nothing new. Decades ago, dancers did everything.
It looked different because the style of dancing was different, but the
movements were the same.
I think that looking at these movements, it is important to make a distinction
between tango as a social dance and tango as an art form. The two can overlap,
but only with great care.
Thanks for an interesting discussion!
Nina
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:25:28 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
It is nice to get Barbara's older "recent history" from 1993, as
things have changed so much. I don't doubt your observations. I think
you were on the cusp of the change.
By my first trip in 1996 ocho cortados and straight milonguero (as it
now is called) was the norm in many clubs. Probably not at Sunderland
(as you say, out in the neighborhoods). Certainly the milonguero
style dominated at Almagro, which was full of many very good dancers.
It couldn't have sprung fully fletched from the nest, so the style
however it is called, must have gone back further.
I was at Sunderland in 1996 also, but don't remember the style. All I
know is that I was unprepared for the close dancing (salon or
milonguero) and had a lot of difficulty navigation the crowds. I
undertook to learn how to dance close and rhythmic, and by my second
trip (1997 or 1998) I was able to fit in on the dance floor.
Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the eyes of Fabian
& Gustavo. Chicho was learning milonguero.
My sense is that a lot of the old guys always knew milonguero (by
whatever name) but didn't talk about it much, emphasizing the more
elegant, socially-acceptable and family-oriented salon. I think on
their spare time some of them were cruising for ladies downtown, so
maybe there were other things they didn't talk about. I say this
because I've heard some of the older, classic dancers (whom we know
for their teaching of "salon/fantasy") criticize milonguero as just a
way to pick up chicks ("levantar una mina'), and yet I've seen some
of the same dancing straight milonguero.
You will be somewhat shocked at the level of dance these days
compared with the mid 1990s. There are only a few places to go where
the floor-craft is pretty good and the dancers are on the average
excellent. There are a more places where the dancing is fairly okay
with a sprinkling of great dancers, but the navigation is marred by
whirlygigs and zig-zaggers without awareness of people around them,
or perhaps intentionally trying to clear the floor.
Canning, Consagrados, Arrangue and a few others may be a good model
for the future. These milongas have a lot of "normal" people in
attendance: 50 year old guys and 40 year old secretaries. The dancing
is basic, pretty-good social tango, not nuevo or fantasy-dominated
salon. The few foreigners there fit right in.
These days, due to the growth of tango most people on the dance
floors in Buenos Aires have 2-10 years of dance, whereas your
observations in 1993 included milongas where a lot of dancers (the
majority?) had 40-50 years.
On Jul 13, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Barbara Garvey wrote:
> Hi Tom, et al,
> Hope you are doing well -- we've mentioned you to several visitors
> from
> Colorado who turned up in our classes or practicas.
>
> I guess we have to repeat this discussion every time a few newbies
> join
> the List.
> The term milonguero *as a style of dancing* did not exist in Buenos
> Aires before 1993 or 1994, according to our experience. If anyone who
> was dancing there before 1993 has evidence otherwise, please speak up.
> We visited BsAs for about a month at a time in 1987, 90, 91, 92, 94
> and
> 98; in 1994 (93?-- we weren't there in 93) Susana Miller began
> teaching
> and * heavily* promoting the term for close embrace style of dancing,
> mostly Tete's version, as the *only authentic social tango*.
> Dancing in
> a close embrace definitely existed before our first trip, but without
> any bells and whistles;we had heard the term "confiteria"
> occasionally.
> At places like Regin (now El Beso) and Salon Argentina and other
> venues
> in the center that was definitely the preferred style. We noticed only
> salidas, walking, cadencias and weight changes, and back 8's. Not even
> front 8s or 8s cortados. Plus no teachers even acknowledged that
> style,
> much less taught it.
>
> Meanwhile in the neighborhoods, like Mataderos and Villa Urquiza, a
> more
> open, or actually very slightly in&out style (in for walking moves, a
> couple of inches out for turning steps) was, and I hope, still is,
> happening. See old videos of Fino and Teresa. This included sacadas,
> turns, floor boleos, turns, etc, only "on the floor" techniques, but
> never high boleos, jumps, or anything disruptive. This was the style
> used by virtually everyone whose dancing was admired, and by all
> teachers pre 1993 or 4. A large number of these dancers were (are?)
> very
> very good -- see the film TangoBar with Raul Julia. Al and I knew and
> studied with 4 of the couples in the "Como Dios manda" scene. More
> dramatic (fantasia) moves were only used for exhibitions (by non-stage
> dancers as well as professionals) and were strictly warned against for
> use in the milongas by all teachers, including stage dancers.
>
> Eduardo Arquimbau began teaching his club-style sometime in the early
> 90s, but originally he did not stress close embrace. Previously to his
> classes we had found a similar very rythmic style of dancing was a
> natural response to us to certain music, D'arienzo, Biaggi, of
> course.
>
> In the pre-94 years, "milonguero" or "milonguera" *seemed* (I may have
> misunderstood the context) to refer to anyone who went dancing
> frequently; I didn't notice a pejorative meaning although it was
> understood that in the past it had that interpretation. In any case, I
> wonder what term we can use for those of us who dance socially in
> whatever style but actually live a pretty responsible lifestyle (by
> choice, age or accident)????
>
> And those who dance only "milonguero" style, but who are not layabouts
> and womanizers, what do you call yourselves?
>
> And those who insist this is the *only* social style, have you ever
> been
> to Sunderland, Sin Rumbo, and other milongas outside the center of
> town?
> Al and I are planning a trip to BsAs in November and are eager
> (anxious?) to see for ourselves the extent of change since we were
> last
> there in 1998.
>
> NEW TOPIC: Recent History
> I am curious about the introduction of such moves as colgadas,
> volcadas,
> and other new close embrace and/or nuevo techniques. Does anyone know
> who invented what???
> Abrazos to all from the Global Warming capital of the world.
> Barbara
> www.tangobar-productions.com
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:32:05 -0400
From: rtara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: <nina@earthnet.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina,
I agree about Daniel Trenner - he must have wonderful archives of the
interviews he did with the maestros who taught during his well known tango
tours. I was there in 94 and 95 with Trenner and my favorite parts of the
trip were these interviews wit the likes of Juan Bruno, Mingo & Ester
Pugliese, Rudolfo & Maria Cieri, Pepito, Eduardo and Gloria, Pupi and
Graciella, and so many others.
There were moments I will never forget - especially the time when Maria
Ciera burst into song during the interview. When she opened her eyes to look
around at the end of the song, everyone in the room was crying, even though
many of us did not have much of an understanding of Castellano.
Robin
Tara Design, Inc.
www.taratangoshoes.com
Toll Free in US: 1-877-906-8272
18 Stillman St.
So. Portland ME 04106
207-741-2992--
> From: nina@earthnet.net
> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:42:02 -0600
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
>
> Greetings, everyone,
>
> The story of "milonguero" style that Barbara Garvey (always a delight to hear
> from you, Barbara!) is exactly how I learned it while living in BsAs. I know
> this story from a person who was very intrenched in then newly-emerging tango
> scene in Buenos Aires when very few people danced.
>
> I think that it is very important to keep these stories. They help new
> dancers
> understand what is what in tango. They alo keep the integrity of the
> evolution
> of tango.
>
> In my NSHO, the true keeper of the stories of tango is Daniel Trenner. I hope
> that he returns to touring one day. Daniel collected the stories and shared
> them as he traveled the world, and they were accurate stories because he
> talked
> with those people himself and knew first hand what happenned in the recent
> evolution of tango and how.
>
> As far as colgadas, volcadas, etc. go, I know that Maestro Gavito danced his
> own
> particular volcada - very stylish, very special - and it got a LOT of
> attention
> in the world of tango. It became his signature movement.
>
> And Julio Balmaceda and Corina de la Rosa danced colgadas many years ago in
> their own performances, long before they and other teachers were teaching it
> in
> the classes.
>
> However, in tango, there is nothing new. Decades ago, dancers did everything.
> It looked different because the style of dancing was different, but the
> movements were the same.
>
> I think that looking at these movements, it is important to make a distinction
> between tango as a social dance and tango as an art form. The two can
> overlap,
> but only with great care.
>
> Thanks for an interesting discussion!
>
> Nina
>
>
>
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>, Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
Tom:
"The Tango Lesson" has an issue date of 1997. It was no doubt filmed earlier than the issue date. Did Fabian and Gustavo make huge strides in the development of Nuevo before the movie was filmed? ("Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the eyes of Fabian & Gustavo...") Or... they aren't dancing Neuvo in the film? Or...
Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
It is nice to get Barbara's older "recent history" from 1993, as
things have changed so much. I don't doubt your observations. I think
you were on the cusp of the change.
By my first trip in 1996 ocho cortados and straight milonguero (as it
now is called) was the norm in many clubs. Probably not at Sunderland
(as you say, out in the neighborhoods). Certainly the milonguero
style dominated at Almagro, which was full of many very good dancers.
It couldn't have sprung fully fletched from the nest, so the style
however it is called, must have gone back further.
I was at Sunderland in 1996 also, but don't remember the style. All I
know is that I was unprepared for the close dancing (salon or
milonguero) and had a lot of difficulty navigation the crowds. I
undertook to learn how to dance close and rhythmic, and by my second
trip (1997 or 1998) I was able to fit in on the dance floor.
Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the eyes of Fabian
& Gustavo. Chicho was learning milonguero.
My sense is that a lot of the old guys always knew milonguero (by
whatever name) but didn't talk about it much, emphasizing the more
elegant, socially-acceptable and family-oriented salon. I think on
their spare time some of them were cruising for ladies downtown, so
maybe there were other things they didn't talk about. I say this
because I've heard some of the older, classic dancers (whom we know
for their teaching of "salon/fantasy") criticize milonguero as just a
way to pick up chicks ("levantar una mina'), and yet I've seen some
of the same dancing straight milonguero.
You will be somewhat shocked at the level of dance these days
compared with the mid 1990s. There are only a few places to go where
the floor-craft is pretty good and the dancers are on the average
excellent. There are a more places where the dancing is fairly okay
with a sprinkling of great dancers, but the navigation is marred by
whirlygigs and zig-zaggers without awareness of people around them,
or perhaps intentionally trying to clear the floor.
Canning, Consagrados, Arrangue and a few others may be a good model
for the future. These milongas have a lot of "normal" people in
attendance: 50 year old guys and 40 year old secretaries. The dancing
is basic, pretty-good social tango, not nuevo or fantasy-dominated
salon. The few foreigners there fit right in.
These days, due to the growth of tango most people on the dance
floors in Buenos Aires have 2-10 years of dance, whereas your
observations in 1993 included milongas where a lot of dancers (the
majority?) had 40-50 years.
On Jul 13, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Barbara Garvey wrote:
> Hi Tom, et al,
> Hope you are doing well -- we've mentioned you to several visitors
> from
> Colorado who turned up in our classes or practicas.
>
> I guess we have to repeat this discussion every time a few newbies
> join
> the List.
> The term milonguero *as a style of dancing* did not exist in Buenos
> Aires before 1993 or 1994, according to our experience. If anyone who
> was dancing there before 1993 has evidence otherwise, please speak up.
> We visited BsAs for about a month at a time in 1987, 90, 91, 92, 94
> and
> 98; in 1994 (93?-- we weren't there in 93) Susana Miller began
> teaching
> and * heavily* promoting the term for close embrace style of dancing,
> mostly Tete's version, as the *only authentic social tango*.
> Dancing in
> a close embrace definitely existed before our first trip, but without
> any bells and whistles;we had heard the term "confiteria"
> occasionally.
> At places like Regin (now El Beso) and Salon Argentina and other
> venues
> in the center that was definitely the preferred style. We noticed only
> salidas, walking, cadencias and weight changes, and back 8's. Not even
> front 8s or 8s cortados. Plus no teachers even acknowledged that
> style,
> much less taught it.
>
> Meanwhile in the neighborhoods, like Mataderos and Villa Urquiza, a
> more
> open, or actually very slightly in&out style (in for walking moves, a
> couple of inches out for turning steps) was, and I hope, still is,
> happening. See old videos of Fino and Teresa. This included sacadas,
> turns, floor boleos, turns, etc, only "on the floor" techniques, but
> never high boleos, jumps, or anything disruptive. This was the style
> used by virtually everyone whose dancing was admired, and by all
> teachers pre 1993 or 4. A large number of these dancers were (are?)
> very
> very good -- see the film TangoBar with Raul Julia. Al and I knew and
> studied with 4 of the couples in the "Como Dios manda" scene. More
> dramatic (fantasia) moves were only used for exhibitions (by non-stage
> dancers as well as professionals) and were strictly warned against for
> use in the milongas by all teachers, including stage dancers.
>
> Eduardo Arquimbau began teaching his club-style sometime in the early
> 90s, but originally he did not stress close embrace. Previously to his
> classes we had found a similar very rythmic style of dancing was a
> natural response to us to certain music, D'arienzo, Biaggi, of
> course.
>
> In the pre-94 years, "milonguero" or "milonguera" *seemed* (I may have
> misunderstood the context) to refer to anyone who went dancing
> frequently; I didn't notice a pejorative meaning although it was
> understood that in the past it had that interpretation. In any case, I
> wonder what term we can use for those of us who dance socially in
> whatever style but actually live a pretty responsible lifestyle (by
> choice, age or accident)????
>
> And those who dance only "milonguero" style, but who are not layabouts
> and womanizers, what do you call yourselves?
>
> And those who insist this is the *only* social style, have you ever
> been
> to Sunderland, Sin Rumbo, and other milongas outside the center of
> town?
> Al and I are planning a trip to BsAs in November and are eager
> (anxious?) to see for ourselves the extent of change since we were
> last
> there in 1998.
>
> NEW TOPIC: Recent History
> I am curious about the introduction of such moves as colgadas,
> volcadas,
> and other new close embrace and/or nuevo techniques. Does anyone know
> who invented what???
> Abrazos to all from the Global Warming capital of the world.
> Barbara
> www.tangobar-productions.com
>
>
>
>
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1?/min.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:08:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>, Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
Tom:
"The Tango Lesson" has an issue date of 1997. It was no doubt filmed earlier than the issue date. Did Fabian and Gustavo make huge strides in the development of Nuevo before the movie was filmed? ("Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the eyes of Fabian & Gustavo...") Or... they aren't dancing Neuvo in the film? Or...
Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
It is nice to get Barbara's older "recent history" from 1993, as
things have changed so much. I don't doubt your observations. I think
you were on the cusp of the change.
By my first trip in 1996 ocho cortados and straight milonguero (as it
now is called) was the norm in many clubs. Probably not at Sunderland
(as you say, out in the neighborhoods). Certainly the milonguero
style dominated at Almagro, which was full of many very good dancers.
It couldn't have sprung fully fletched from the nest, so the style
however it is called, must have gone back further.
I was at Sunderland in 1996 also, but don't remember the style. All I
know is that I was unprepared for the close dancing (salon or
milonguero) and had a lot of difficulty navigation the crowds. I
undertook to learn how to dance close and rhythmic, and by my second
trip (1997 or 1998) I was able to fit in on the dance floor.
Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the eyes of Fabian
& Gustavo. Chicho was learning milonguero.
My sense is that a lot of the old guys always knew milonguero (by
whatever name) but didn't talk about it much, emphasizing the more
elegant, socially-acceptable and family-oriented salon. I think on
their spare time some of them were cruising for ladies downtown, so
maybe there were other things they didn't talk about. I say this
because I've heard some of the older, classic dancers (whom we know
for their teaching of "salon/fantasy") criticize milonguero as just a
way to pick up chicks ("levantar una mina'), and yet I've seen some
of the same dancing straight milonguero.
You will be somewhat shocked at the level of dance these days
compared with the mid 1990s. There are only a few places to go where
the floor-craft is pretty good and the dancers are on the average
excellent. There are a more places where the dancing is fairly okay
with a sprinkling of great dancers, but the navigation is marred by
whirlygigs and zig-zaggers without awareness of people around them,
or perhaps intentionally trying to clear the floor.
Canning, Consagrados, Arrangue and a few others may be a good model
for the future. These milongas have a lot of "normal" people in
attendance: 50 year old guys and 40 year old secretaries. The dancing
is basic, pretty-good social tango, not nuevo or fantasy-dominated
salon. The few foreigners there fit right in.
These days, due to the growth of tango most people on the dance
floors in Buenos Aires have 2-10 years of dance, whereas your
observations in 1993 included milongas where a lot of dancers (the
majority?) had 40-50 years.
On Jul 13, 2006, at 12:08 PM, Barbara Garvey wrote:
> Hi Tom, et al,
> Hope you are doing well -- we've mentioned you to several visitors
> from
> Colorado who turned up in our classes or practicas.
>
> I guess we have to repeat this discussion every time a few newbies
> join
> the List.
> The term milonguero *as a style of dancing* did not exist in Buenos
> Aires before 1993 or 1994, according to our experience. If anyone who
> was dancing there before 1993 has evidence otherwise, please speak up.
> We visited BsAs for about a month at a time in 1987, 90, 91, 92, 94
> and
> 98; in 1994 (93?-- we weren't there in 93) Susana Miller began
> teaching
> and * heavily* promoting the term for close embrace style of dancing,
> mostly Tete's version, as the *only authentic social tango*.
> Dancing in
> a close embrace definitely existed before our first trip, but without
> any bells and whistles;we had heard the term "confiteria"
> occasionally.
> At places like Regin (now El Beso) and Salon Argentina and other
> venues
> in the center that was definitely the preferred style. We noticed only
> salidas, walking, cadencias and weight changes, and back 8's. Not even
> front 8s or 8s cortados. Plus no teachers even acknowledged that
> style,
> much less taught it.
>
> Meanwhile in the neighborhoods, like Mataderos and Villa Urquiza, a
> more
> open, or actually very slightly in&out style (in for walking moves, a
> couple of inches out for turning steps) was, and I hope, still is,
> happening. See old videos of Fino and Teresa. This included sacadas,
> turns, floor boleos, turns, etc, only "on the floor" techniques, but
> never high boleos, jumps, or anything disruptive. This was the style
> used by virtually everyone whose dancing was admired, and by all
> teachers pre 1993 or 4. A large number of these dancers were (are?)
> very
> very good -- see the film TangoBar with Raul Julia. Al and I knew and
> studied with 4 of the couples in the "Como Dios manda" scene. More
> dramatic (fantasia) moves were only used for exhibitions (by non-stage
> dancers as well as professionals) and were strictly warned against for
> use in the milongas by all teachers, including stage dancers.
>
> Eduardo Arquimbau began teaching his club-style sometime in the early
> 90s, but originally he did not stress close embrace. Previously to his
> classes we had found a similar very rythmic style of dancing was a
> natural response to us to certain music, D'arienzo, Biaggi, of
> course.
>
> In the pre-94 years, "milonguero" or "milonguera" *seemed* (I may have
> misunderstood the context) to refer to anyone who went dancing
> frequently; I didn't notice a pejorative meaning although it was
> understood that in the past it had that interpretation. In any case, I
> wonder what term we can use for those of us who dance socially in
> whatever style but actually live a pretty responsible lifestyle (by
> choice, age or accident)????
>
> And those who dance only "milonguero" style, but who are not layabouts
> and womanizers, what do you call yourselves?
>
> And those who insist this is the *only* social style, have you ever
> been
> to Sunderland, Sin Rumbo, and other milongas outside the center of
> town?
> Al and I are planning a trip to BsAs in November and are eager
> (anxious?) to see for ourselves the extent of change since we were
> last
> there in 1998.
>
> NEW TOPIC: Recent History
> I am curious about the introduction of such moves as colgadas,
> volcadas,
> and other new close embrace and/or nuevo techniques. Does anyone know
> who invented what???
> Abrazos to all from the Global Warming capital of the world.
> Barbara
> www.tangobar-productions.com
>
>
>
>
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:36:13 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
I stand corrected. Let's say the nuevo pregancy was coming to term by
1995. The usual dates referenced are simply "the 1990s".
In 1995, the nuevo concepts were still being developed as Gustavo,
Fabian and a few others were practicing and still developing their
analysis. My initial tango instruction in 1995-96 was inspired by
the turns of Mingo Pugliese and the ideas of Gustavo. Specifically, I
was taught Tango as an improvised walk, rather than a choreography.
Also, I have a cameo role in Daniel Trenner's five-tape series of
Gustavo Naveira's Advanced Workshop. I'm the guy leading Gustavo.
This sense of improvisation in the walk and the turn was in contrast
to the other main teaching methodology of the time, namely the 8CB w/
DBS, which was a bit more based in choreographies and variations.
Certainly the mid-90s were very creative period for the "FaGuChi"
crowd. They deserve credit for systematizing a lot of tango concepts,
(most of which already existed) including: of parallel & crossed
systems, alterations (changes of direction), ocho-cortado (?), and
others
Here is an interview with Fabian Salas about the earlier days.
https://www.totango.net/salas2.html
https://www.totango.net/salas.html
On Jul 13, 2006, at 2:56 PM, steve pastor wrote:
> Tom:
> "The Tango Lesson" has an issue date of 1997. It was no doubt
> filmed earlier than the issue date. Did Fabian and Gustavo make
> huge strides in the development of Nuevo before the movie was
> filmed? ("Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the
> eyes of Fabian & Gustavo...") Or... they aren't dancing Neuvo in
> the film? Or...
> ...
> Of course, in 1995 nuevo was still just a gleam in the eyes of Fabian
> & Gustavo. Chicho was learning milonguero.
>
> My sense is that a lot of the old guys always knew milonguero (by
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Barbara,
Perhaps you can also confirm the increase of milongas to
what it is today. I have heard that the milonga scene that
we know today in Buenos Aires is only about 12 years old.
Diego Vepes, Susana Miller's son, started a milonga at
Ideal and, afterwards, milongas began popping up. I have
no doubt that milongas existed before then, but perhaps
they were more like social neighborhood clubs. Now, I get
the sense that they are business enterprises.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
wrote:
> Hi Tom, et al,
> Hope you are doing well -- we've mentioned you to several
> visitors from
> Colorado who turned up in our classes or practicas.
>
> I guess we have to repeat this discussion every time a
> few newbies join
> the List.
> The term milonguero *as a style of dancing* did not exist
> in Buenos
> Aires before 1993 or 1994, according to our experience.
> If anyone who
> was dancing there before 1993 has evidence otherwise,
> please speak up.
> We visited BsAs for about a month at a time in 1987, 90,
> 91, 92, 94 and
> 98; in 1994 (93?-- we weren't there in 93) Susana Miller
> began teaching
> and * heavily* promoting the term for close embrace style
> of dancing,
> mostly Tete's version, as the *only authentic social
> tango*.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:33:35 +0200
From: "Andy.Ungureanu@t-online.de" <Andy.Ungureanu@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
To: tango-l@mit.edu
-----Original Message-----
> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:08:40 +0200
> Subject: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
> From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
>
> NEW TOPIC: Recent History
> I am curious about the introduction of such moves as colgadas,
> volcadas, and other new close embrace and/or nuevo techniques. Does
> anyone know who ?invented what???
the cited "nuevo" developpment in the 90's by Naveira, Salas, Veron
et.al. included changes of direction, extensive use of sacadas by man
and woman (leader and follower for the p.c.'s ;-) , the concept of using
both sides equally and few others, but not giving up the vertical axis.
The tilt of the axis to the inside of the couple begun with the
"milongueros" or however you call them. Susana Miller taught in the
beginning (around 97) the women to lean on the men, even to hang, it was
very hard to dance. Later she changed the concept, giving up the
hanging, but the the couple still lean on each other. Around 2000 this
position was further developped to what now is called volcada.
The tilt of the axis to the outside (colgada) is a completely different
concept. Up to 2000 every teacher emphasized the importance of keeping
an accurate vertical?axis for oneself. I first saw? Naveira and
Giselle-Ane doing an axis turn of the couple were both partners had the
feet nearly in one place in 99 or early 2000. In the workshops he had a
hard time to explain?the dynamic of the move and to convince the women
to lean back and trust the men will not let them fall. He practiced this
himself with every man and woman in the class. Balmaceda did not this
kind of move before, but he used very soon a refined technique to do
several turns in this position. Cicho played around with the idea and a
lot of related movements appeared. Sebastian Arce and other
professionals worked together on developping a basic technique of
colgadas to allow them to be executed with any partner, not only with
the own one. About 2003-2004 every international festival had workshops
on colgadas and volcadas.
I have surely forgotten to mention?some names and missed some years, but
this was the overall developpment as I could observe it.
Andy
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 12:05 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Certainly the mid-90s were very creative period for the "FaGuChi"
> crowd. They deserve credit for systematizing a lot of tango concepts,
>...
> https://www.totango.net/salas2.html
Se?or Salas must die with embarrassment every time he's reminded of that
interview...
Such as his account of he and Gustavo worked for years on e.g.
'systematising' the forward, backward and side steps... by relabelling them
"front", "back" and "open". To arrive at the 'conerstone concept' of there
being just these three positions in tango.
Then going on to invent the name 'cross system'... for a walk that has no
crossing and is not a system.
Quite how a whole generation of teachers mistook this nonsense for a System
of Tango Nuevo will forever remain one of tango's great mysteries ;)
Chris
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 09:20:17 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
Probably the three most influential teaching methodologies today
include the "8CB w/DBS" developed in the 60s or 70s by Todaro/Copes,
the "Improvised Small Elements" of many milonguero teachers in the
90s, and the "Improvised Walk/Turn" developed by Gustavo Naveira and
Fabian Salas also in the 90s.
Each method has value, and has been proven effective at getting
people to learn tango. Yeah, you can point to shortcomings in each
method.
All knowledge is useful, whether you personally partake of it or not.
Chris, you are permitted not have to sip that cup.
On Jul 15, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Chris, UK wrote:
>> Certainly the mid-90s were very creative period for the "FaGuChi"
>> crowd. They deserve credit for systematizing a lot of tango concepts,
>> ...
>> https://www.totango.net/salas2.html
>
> Se?or Salas must die with embarrassment every time he's reminded of
> that
> interview...
>
> Such as his account of he and Gustavo worked for years on e.g.
> 'systematising' the forward, backward and side steps... by
> relabelling them
> "front", "back" and "open". To arrive at the 'conerstone concept'
> of there
> being just these three positions in tango.
>
> Then going on to invent the name 'cross system'... for a walk that
> has no
> crossing and is not a system.
>
> Quite how a whole generation of teachers mistook this nonsense for
> a System
> of Tango Nuevo will forever remain one of tango's great mysteries ;)
>
> Chris
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 04:11 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango, pre 1994
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Tom wrote:
> Probably the three most influential teaching methodologies today include
>... the "Improvised Walk/Turn" developed by Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas
I think you'll find that's a figment of teacher imagination.
What Fabian described is not a teaching methodology. It is merely lesson
material. Particularly, remedial lesson material for teachers:
"In reality, every dancer uses what we discovered. ... But, you go to a
class and nobody tells you what it is ... most of the teachers don't
know what we're talking about. This is the problem."
No surprise these teachers aren't keen to accept this, instead preferring
to believe themselves privileged recipients of a grand pedagogic method.
Around the time Fabian gave that interview in the US, Gustavo was giving
workshops in Europe. In every one that I observed, I saw no sign of a
methodology as you describe.
And in fact very little of that material. Perhaps because none was needed.
As Fabian says in that same interview:
"you go to Europe, most of these people dance the way we do"
> All knowledge is useful
Only to those who sell it, Tom.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Hi Chris
*From:* Cati Mu?ozde Arenillas <Caturra@eresmas.com>
*To:* chrisjj@cix.co.uk
*Date:* Sun, 12 Jan 1992 23:59:25 +0100
?Hola Chris! I promissed you help with your Spanish studies and here I
am. You can ask me any questions, I could correct your exercises,
compositions or whatever you like. I will be very pleased to give you a
hand.
There is one C. Jordan on the Barcelona Tango w/e. Is that you? If so,
have a nice time there.
Take care. Con cari?o: Katy
