5070 Structure of Tango (Was: Four Layers of Tango
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:59:38 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango (Was: Four Layers of Tango
Learning)
I think many of us who have been dancing for a while write and talk about
the structure of tango without really defining what we mean. I'm
expanding on my previous post.
If we think of tango as being made up of individual movements and
sequences of movements (step patterns), the structure of tango is the
fabric from which these movements are drawn. Elements of the
structure of tango were discovered and systemized by two different groups
of dancers/instructors.
One such approach emerged from a group of dancers led by Petroleo (Carlos
Estevez) and Salvador Sciana during the golden age of tango. The group
explored and developed turns. Mingo Pugliese was one of the youngest
members of the group, and he is credited for distilling the group's
thinking into a systematic approach to teaching turns (giros) as
generalized eight-count right and left turns. The system serves as a
frame of reference for creating all turning steps including giros,
molinettes, enrosques and ganchos.
Another approach emerged from a group of dancers led by by Gustavo Naveira
and has included such other dancers/teachers as Fabian Salas, Chicho
Frumboli, and (possibly) Pablo Veron. With
contributions from his then partner, Olga Besio, and some of his
compatriots, Naveira developed a systematic way for looking at all the
movement possibilities in tango. Some of the concepts included parallel
and crossed systems of walking, ochos as part of the system of turns,
boleos as an interuption of turns, and the equivalence between cross
walking and back ochos. Naveira's system serves as a frame of reference
for creating all tango steps. In addition, the system help bring into
visibility some step patterns such as overturn ochos and a change of
direction in turns that were not previously used with much frequency.
These underlying structures can provide a frame of reference and an
encyclopedia of tango movement. Mastery of these structures can greatly
increase the fluidity of a tango dancer's improvisational skills. (What
is required for such mastery, I will leave for further discussion, but it
takes much more than 6 weeks.)
Some of the structural elements of tango are:
Walks (Caminatas)
parallel foot, in line
parallel foot, outside right
parallel foot, outside left
cross foot, in line
cross foot, outside right
cross foot, outside left
arrastres or barridas (drags or sweeps)
Turns (Giros)
forward ocho
backward ocho
giro
giro with sacadas
boleo/amague
molinete (with lapiz)
enrosque
forward enrosque
arrastres or barridas (drags or sweeps)
planeo
change of axis steps
change of direction steps
Sandwiches (Mordidas)
Embellishments (Adornos, Firuletes)
Structural Connections
basic step as a hallway
basic step as a turn
parallel and cross foot walking
interchangability between back ochos and cross-foot walking
lapiz-enrosque
For further reading, I recommend reading Brian Dunn's interview with
Gustavo Naveira:
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg04984.html
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05040.html
For a visual representation I recommend the videos by Gustavo Naveira and
Olga Besio and those by Daniel Trenner.
See: https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Structure
The Pugliese videos might also be helpful, but I find those videos are bit
less direct about the fact they are teaching from a structural system.
See https://www.tejastango.com/bridge_tango.html#Pugliese
Even better attend the Gustavo Naveira workshops that are upcoming
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:09:10 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango (Was: Four Layers of Tango
Learning)
Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org wrote:
> Elements of the
> structure of tango were discovered and systemized by two different groups
> of dancers/instructors.
>
Stephen there are in fact many more people who have proposed or authored
their own
systemization of tango.
- Mauricio Castro's tango discovery system
- Los Dinzels wrote An Anxious Quest for Freedom and also several dance
manuals
- Juan Carlos Copes wrote Bailemos Tango
- Christine Dennisten
- Chan Park "Tango Zen"
Unlike other books on Tango which focus on history, culture, travel or
music, these books
are about dance techniques, body concepts, and lead-follow. Nowadays we
see less
instructors spending time to write down their ideas as they can just
tape the presentation
for their instructional video. But reading the words bring out the
author's intention more
clearly.
Kace
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:42:26 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango (Was: Four Layers of Tango
Learning)
I think Stephen Brown has dug a deep hole for himself and is now struggling to get out. In an earlier post he blithely gave
'Structure of the Dance' as the 3rd of his 4 Layers of Tango Learning and, now, it's becoming increasingly apparent that
he has no real idea about what that means. All he can do is refer to other teachers and make a list of some of the more
common steps and figures that are danced in Tango.
If he either doesn't understand it or just can't explain it - how can it be such an important element im Learning Tango?
'Structure of the Dance' sounds like another ploy to overly-complicate the process of learning Tango. It really isn't that
complicated - just go to class, don't think about it too much and you'll learn how to dance. Leave the theory alone until
you want to start sounding important on Tango-L.
Keith, HK
On Sat Jul 21 4:59 , Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org sent:
>I think many of us who have been dancing for a while write and talk about
>the structure of tango without really defining what we mean. I'm
>expanding on my previous post.
>
>If we think of tango as being made up of individual movements and
>sequences of movements (step patterns), the structure of tango is the
>fabric from which these movements are drawn. Elements of the
>structure of tango were discovered and systemized by two different groups
>of dancers/instructors.
>
>One such approach emerged from a group of dancers led by Petroleo (Carlos
>Estevez) and Salvador Sciana during the golden age of tango. The group
>explored and developed turns. Mingo Pugliese was one of the youngest
>members of the group, and he is credited for distilling the group's
>thinking into a systematic approach to teaching turns (giros) as
>generalized eight-count right and left turns. The system serves as a
>frame of reference for creating all turning steps including giros,
>molinettes, enrosques and ganchos.
>
>Another approach emerged from a group of dancers led by by Gustavo Naveira
>and has included such other dancers/teachers as Fabian Salas, Chicho
>Frumboli, and (possibly) Pablo Veron. With
>contributions from his then partner, Olga Besio, and some of his
>compatriots, Naveira developed a systematic way for looking at all the
>movement possibilities in tango. Some of the concepts included parallel
>and crossed systems of walking, ochos as part of the system of turns,
>boleos as an interuption of turns, and the equivalence between cross
>walking and back ochos. Naveira's system serves as a frame of reference
>for creating all tango steps. In addition, the system help bring into
>visibility some step patterns such as overturn ochos and a change of
>direction in turns that were not previously used with much frequency.
>
>These underlying structures can provide a frame of reference and an
>encyclopedia of tango movement. Mastery of these structures can greatly
>increase the fluidity of a tango dancer's improvisational skills. (What
>is required for such mastery, I will leave for further discussion, but it
>takes much more than 6 weeks.)
>
>Some of the structural elements of tango are:
>
> Walks (Caminatas)
> parallel foot, in line
> parallel foot, outside right
> parallel foot, outside left
> cross foot, in line
> cross foot, outside right
> cross foot, outside left
> arrastres or barridas (drags or sweeps)
> Turns (Giros)
> forward ocho
> backward ocho
> giro
> giro with sacadas
> boleo/amague
> molinete (with lapiz)
> enrosque
> forward enrosque
> arrastres or barridas (drags or sweeps)
> planeo
> change of axis steps
> change of direction steps
> Sandwiches (Mordidas)
> Embellishments (Adornos, Firuletes)
> Structural Connections
> basic step as a hallway
> basic step as a turn
> parallel and cross foot walking
> interchangability between back ochos and cross-foot walking
> lapiz-enrosque
>
>For further reading, I recommend reading Brian Dunn's interview with
>Gustavo Naveira:
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg04984.html
>https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05040.html
>
>For a visual representation I recommend the videos by Gustavo Naveira and
>Olga Besio and those by Daniel Trenner.
>See: https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Structure
>
>The Pugliese videos might also be helpful, but I find those videos are bit
>less direct about the fact they are teaching from a structural system.
>See https://www.tejastango.com/bridge_tango.html#Pugliese
>
>Even better attend the Gustavo Naveira workshops that are upcoming
>
>With best regards,
>Steve
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 15:22:10 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango
To: tango-L@mit.edu
List,
While Stephen has provided some useful info (for some readers here,
anyway), I agree with Keith that he hasn't written of the underlying
structure itself-- which is not the moves per se, but rather what makes
them legible in a closed conceptual system.
E.g., observations like:
* The dancers are always in either parallel (aka normal) or
cross-system, unless someone is standing on both feet (or on their partner)
* Whenever one dancer steps (changes weight) while the other does
not, the system changes
* Walking steps are either "open" or "crossed" (in front or
behind)-- this one I've disputed at length
* Turns/pivots have a center and a circumference
* Both dancers cannot stand in the same place at the same time
* A cruzada is just a step in place on the other side of one's foot
* When it's neither led nor followed, you call it an "embellishment"
(although if you can figure out how to lead it, you get to make up a
stupid nickname)
This is structure-- an expression in all variables, which you cannot
choreograph (as is) because it has no particulars. A list of moves
(which you _can_ choreograph) is simply the tangible material in which
structure, otherwise latent, may be discerned.
I notice that the structure of pivots has not yet (to my knowledge) been
fully explored. My previous posts on analysis began to unravel the
problems of a step-centric structure, but I'm still working on it
intermittently.
Jake
DC
Keith wrote:
> I think Stephen Brown has dug a deep hole for himself and is now struggling to get out. In an earlier post he blithely gave
> 'Structure of the Dance' as the 3rd of his 4 Layers of Tango Learning and, now, it's becoming increasingly apparent that
> he has no real idea about what that means. All he can do is refer to other teachers and make a list of some of the more
> common steps and figures that are danced in Tango.
>
> If he either doesn't understand it or just can't explain it - how can it be such an important element im Learning Tango?
>
> 'Structure of the Dance' sounds like another ploy to overly-complicate the process of learning Tango. It really isn't that
> complicated - just go to class, don't think about it too much and you'll learn how to dance. Leave the theory alone until
> you want to start sounding important on Tango-L.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Sat Jul 21 4:59 , Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org sent:
>
>
>> I think many of us who have been dancing for a while write and talk about
>> the structure of tango without really defining what we mean. I'm
>> expanding on my previous post.
>>
>> If we think of tango as being made up of individual movements and
>> sequences of movements (step patterns), the structure of tango is the
>> fabric from which these movements are drawn. Elements of the
>> structure of tango were discovered and systemized by two different groups
>> of dancers/instructors.
>>
>> One such approach emerged from a group of dancers led by Petroleo (Carlos
>> Estevez) and Salvador Sciana during the golden age of tango. The group
>> explored and developed turns. Mingo Pugliese was one of the youngest
>> members of the group, and he is credited for distilling the group's
>> thinking into a systematic approach to teaching turns (giros) as
>> generalized eight-count right and left turns. The system serves as a
>> frame of reference for creating all turning steps including giros,
>> molinettes, enrosques and ganchos.
>>
>> Another approach emerged from a group of dancers led by by Gustavo Naveira
>> and has included such other dancers/teachers as Fabian Salas, Chicho
>> Frumboli, and (possibly) Pablo Veron. With
>> contributions from his then partner, Olga Besio, and some of his
>> compatriots, Naveira developed a systematic way for looking at all the
>> movement possibilities in tango. Some of the concepts included parallel
>> and crossed systems of walking, ochos as part of the system of turns,
>> boleos as an interuption of turns, and the equivalence between cross
>> walking and back ochos. Naveira's system serves as a frame of reference
>> for creating all tango steps. In addition, the system help bring into
>> visibility some step patterns such as overturn ochos and a change of
>> direction in turns that were not previously used with much frequency.
>>
>> These underlying structures can provide a frame of reference and an
>> encyclopedia of tango movement. Mastery of these structures can greatly
>> increase the fluidity of a tango dancer's improvisational skills. (What
>> is required for such mastery, I will leave for further discussion, but it
>> takes much more than 6 weeks.)
>>
>> Some of the structural elements of tango are:
>>
>> Walks (Caminatas)
>> parallel foot, in line
>> parallel foot, outside right
>> parallel foot, outside left
>> cross foot, in line
>> cross foot, outside right
>> cross foot, outside left
>> arrastres or barridas (drags or sweeps)
>> Turns (Giros)
>> forward ocho
>> backward ocho
>> giro
>> giro with sacadas
>> boleo/amague
>> molinete (with lapiz)
>> enrosque
>> forward enrosque
>> arrastres or barridas (drags or sweeps)
>> planeo
>> change of axis steps
>> change of direction steps
>> Sandwiches (Mordidas)
>> Embellishments (Adornos, Firuletes)
>> Structural Connections
>> basic step as a hallway
>> basic step as a turn
>> parallel and cross foot walking
>> interchangability between back ochos and cross-foot walking
>> lapiz-enrosque
>>
>> For further reading, I recommend reading Brian Dunn's interview with
>> Gustavo Naveira:
>> https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg04984.html
>> https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2006/msg05040.html
>>
>> For a visual representation I recommend the videos by Gustavo Naveira and
>> Olga Besio and those by Daniel Trenner.
>> See: https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Structure
>>
>> The Pugliese videos might also be helpful, but I find those videos are bit
>> less direct about the fact they are teaching from a structural system.
>> See https://www.tejastango.com/bridge_tango.html#Pugliese
>>
>> Even better attend the Gustavo Naveira workshops that are upcoming
>>
>> With best regards,
>> Steve
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:11 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango (Was: Four Layers of Tango
Learning)
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Norm wrote
> Learn that this dance pattern has a noun and a verb and based on
> the syntax (rules) of the language (dance), the verb follows the noun
> .... The latter would be learning the structure of Tango.
Indeed it would... if tango had any such structure. It doesn't. It can't,
because it's not a symbolic language.
> Since different teachers use different approaches, you sometimes have
> to translate what is being taught into your own language.
Sure. Here's the translation of Gustavo's basis for structural analysis:
1) Sentences can be broken down into words.
2) We've given names (symbols) to those words.
This is an attempt to create a symbolic language to represent the dance.
In my opinion the best it can do is misrepresent. This makes it useless...
Keith wrote
> 'Structure of the Dance' sounds like another ploy to overly-complicate
> the process of learning Tango.
... except as a ploy to over-complicate the process of learning! ;)
> Stephen Brown has dug a deep hole for himself and is now struggling to
> get out. 'Structure of the Dance' as the 3rd of his 4 Layers
Steve has put himself in an interesting place ;) but I think there may be
merit in principle in the idea of layers of tango learning, so I'm looking
forward to his further explanation.
> All he can do is refer to other teachers and make a list of some of the
> more common steps and figures that are danced in Tango.
Steve's Layer 3 has a little more than that. To find it, take out all the
steps (as one must, since Steve includes those in Layer 4) and one is left
(correct me if I am wrong, Steve) with what he's proposing as the Structure.
For example, that ochos are a sub-class of turns. So Steve, I'd like to
hear a) why you think ochos are /necessarily/ a sub-class of turns b) and
how this is useful to learning.
> don't think about it too much and you'll learn how to dance.
Agreed.
> Leave the theory alone until you want to start sounding important on
> Tango-L.
...or to start teaching Gustavo-style advanced seminars ;)
--
Chris
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:11 PM
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango (Was: Four Layers of
TangoLearning)
Norm wrote
> Learn that this dance pattern has a noun and a verb and based on
> the syntax (rules) of the language (dance), the verb follows the noun
> .... The latter would be learning the structure of Tango.
Indeed it would... if tango had any such structure. It doesn't. It can't,
because it's not a symbolic language.
> Since different teachers use different approaches, you sometimes have
> to translate what is being taught into your own language.
Sure. Here's the translation of Gustavo's basis for structural analysis:
1) Sentences can be broken down into words.
2) We've given names (symbols) to those words.
This is an attempt to create a symbolic language to represent the dance.
In my opinion the best it can do is misrepresent. This makes it useless...
Keith wrote
> 'Structure of the Dance' sounds like another ploy to overly-complicate
> the process of learning Tango.
... except as a ploy to over-complicate the process of learning! ;)
> Stephen Brown has dug a deep hole for himself and is now struggling to
> get out. 'Structure of the Dance' as the 3rd of his 4 Layers
Steve has put himself in an interesting place ;) but I think there may be
merit in principle in the idea of layers of tango learning, so I'm looking
forward to his further explanation.
> All he can do is refer to other teachers and make a list of some of the
> more common steps and figures that are danced in Tango.
Steve's Layer 3 has a little more than that. To find it, take out all the
steps (as one must, since Steve includes those in Layer 4) and one is left
(correct me if I am wrong, Steve) with what he's proposing as the Structure.
For example, that ochos are a sub-class of turns. So Steve, I'd like to
hear a) why you think ochos are /necessarily/ a sub-class of turns b) and
how this is useful to learning.
> don't think about it too much and you'll learn how to dance.
Agreed.
> Leave the theory alone until you want to start sounding important on
> Tango-L.
...or to start teaching Gustavo-style advanced seminars ;)
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:01:58 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Structure of Tango
Hi Everyone:
I agree with Jake Spatz that if we think of tango dancing as being made
up of individual steps and sequences of steps (step patterns), the
structure is not these steps and patterns. The structure is the fabric
>from which these movements are created. Structure can be discerned
through the examination of step possibilities. But, I also wouldn't
regard the systematic examination of step possibilities as being the
structure. Rather, that is the theory through which structure is
described. Why is it only theory? The systematic examination of step
possibilites is thoughts about the dance that can be confirmed or refuted
by an examination of its elements and not the fabric from which the
movements are created. Such an examination cannot be used as dance
itself.
I think it is quite reasonable to point out as Gary Barnes has done that
many dancers learn without studying the theory of the structure, but such
an observation may be beside the point. As Gary points out, a structure
underlies what the older dancers do and they "have an intuitive or
subconscious understanding [of tango's structure], not a rational one."
The idea is that studying the structure of tango is a quicker means of
learning the knowledge that the dancers of an older generation took 25+
years to master intuitively.
I should be clear that I'm not proposing studying structure in a book as a
formal knowledge as an end in itself. One has to develop the intuitive or
subconcious feel for the movements, and the only way to do so is by
dancing. The idea is to use the conscious mind to help train the
intuitive mind for dancing.
Edgar Degas said, "Only when he no longer knows what he is doing does the
painter do good things."
Charlie Parker said, "Learn the changes and then forget them."
With best regards,
Steve
