3671 On Style and Styles
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:42:13 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: On Style and Styles
On 9 Jul 2005, Nancy Ingle wrote:
>And as for the correct labels of tango styles? I have
>asked probably 100 men in BsAs what they call their
>style and you know what they answer? They say "Es el
>mio" - It is mine. Or, they might say, "Es de mi
>padre/barrio/liso/simple." but they never say 'Close
>embrace milonguero style'.!!!
Jazz pianist Bill Evans offered the following comments about teaching and
learning style.
"When you begin to teach jazz, the most dangerous thing is that you tend
to teach style. ... [I]f you are going to try to teach jazz ... you must
abstract the principles of music that have nothing to do with style, and
this is exceedingly difficult. ... It ends up where the jazz player,
ultimately, if he is going to be a serious jazz player, teaches himself."
Of course, jazz is not tango, but at some point anyone who is going to
become a tango dancer must take responsibility for their own dancing.
Teachers can facilitate that by teaching tango skills that stand
independently of a specific style and by providing an encouragement for
dancers to find and develop their own style.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 14:44:19 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
On 8/8/05, Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> On 9 Jul 2005, Nancy Ingle wrote:
> >And as for the correct labels of tango styles? I have
> >asked probably 100 men in BsAs what they call their
> >style and you know what they answer? They say "Es el
> >mio" - It is mine
There's only one way to develop a personal style: get a partner and
practice every week a few hours in front of a video recorder. Then:
Most important: develop your posture and walk, until you are
comfortable and no more self-conscious. Figures are secondary to
elegance and assurance.
Analyze your moves and correct them, repeating again and again until
you are perfect.
Perfect one move at a time.
Avoid teachers that teach 3 figures/hour every lesson.
Consider a teacher as a coach who can correct your mistakes in your
chosen moves. Don't let the coach impose his/her style and teach you
something new if you did not master what you decided to.
Watch videos. Pick a move that you like, decompose it and start
recomposing until you master it.
You'll be amazed to know how many "teachers" have learned this way.
At the milongas dance mainly what you have practiced over and over: it
is a different experience. Don't mind the crowd.
Remember to think while dancing that "style" is mainly assurance in
posture and movement.
Finally, it helps if you could assume that you are the Queen (or King)
of the evening.
On 8/8/05, Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> On 9 Jul 2005, Nancy Ingle wrote:
> >And as for the correct labels of tango styles? I have
> >asked probably 100 men in BsAs what they call their
> >style and you know what they answer? They say "Es el
> >mio" - It is mine. Or, they might say, "Es de mi
> >padre/barrio/liso/simple." but they never say 'Close
> >embrace milonguero style'.!!!
>
> Jazz pianist Bill Evans offered the following comments about teaching and
> learning style.
> "When you begin to teach jazz, the most dangerous thing is that you tend
> to teach style. ... [I]f you are going to try to teach jazz ... you must
> abstract the principles of music that have nothing to do with style, and
> this is exceedingly difficult. ... It ends up where the jazz player,
> ultimately, if he is going to be a serious jazz player, teaches himself."
>
> Of course, jazz is not tango, but at some point anyone who is going to
> become a tango dancer must take responsibility for their own dancing.
> Teachers can facilitate that by teaching tango skills that stand
> independently of a specific style and by providing an encouragement for
> dancers to find and develop their own style.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:01:53 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: On Style and Styles (2)
There has been continuing controversy over the various styles of dancing
tango, principally between milonguero, salon and nuevo. Interestingly,
enough much of the controversy about styles of tango has been in
confusing instructional methods with the dance styles themselves.
The development of navigational and rhythmic skills is is facilitated by
teaching tango as small rhythmic elements. In addition, a close embrace,
a good connection, rhythmic movement and good\ navigation are the
characteristics of good social dancing.
The genius of milonguero-style teaching has been in conveying tango as
small rhythmic elements that are executed in a close embrace.
Consequently, teaching in this style facilitates the development of skills
that are useful for social dancing.
In contrast, much of the teaching of salon-style tango relies on complex
step patterns executed in a open embrace while 1950s Di Sarli
instrumentals or frilly unrhythmic tangos play in the background. Such an
approach doesn't faciliate the development of skills that are useful for
social dancing in Buenos Aires. Salon-style tango itself is not
characterized by an open embrace nor the execution of complex patterns
without regard to the music, but its most common instructional methods
misrepresent the style. If salon-style instructors are going to succeed
in preparing dancers with skills for dancing socially, they must learn to
teach tango as small rhythmic elements in a close, but flexible embrace.
My preference would be that instructors learn to teach tango independently
of any particular style, and that style remain an individual choice rather
than a group choice.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 19:32:05 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles
We can divide tango into two main divisions: Social dancing and stage
dancing.
Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social dancing "Salon Style"
meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to the one done on stage.
Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will include :
1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most popular form taught by the
largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto, Diego and
Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo Pugliese, the late Todaro, the
late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the best known tango teachers.
This style includes all the others, it allows you to use open or close
embrace according to your preference or the available space on the dancing
floor.
2 - "Milonguero Style" danced only in close embrace. A form taught by Susana
Miller, Tete, Cacho Dante, and many others Argentine and foreigners.
This form includes a subset of steps adapted to crowded dancing floors.
You naturally may dance this form because of preference in places with lots
of room.
3 - "Nuevo Tango" as taught by Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas, Chicho and
others: a pedagogical form, with its own technique, and which includes all
the salon steps and in addition opens possibilities to use many figures that
are rarely done by dancers of other styles (back boleos, colgadas, vocadas,
soltadas, etc).
It is normally danced in open embrace, which at times is very open.
It generally uses tango music of the golden era, some people may use
non-danceable music but then those people will play that sort of music for
any style. They frequently dance the tango choreography with a background
music but they do not dance to the music.
This style called "Nuevo Tango" feels and looks very Argentine, it is as
Argentine as any other form. The only non-Argentine forms are: American
tango, International tango and Finish tango.
The accomplished Nuevo Tango dancer impresses by the skill of his technique
and the richness of the choreography he uses, with frequent sudden,
unexpected embellishments.
It is a style preferred by young dancers. Their milongas flow very smoothly
even in relatively crowded spaces. It looks like a ballet where every
couple moves around the floor, doing all sort of open figures without
disturbing the other dancers. They most certainly dance to the music.
The problem with using Salon open embrace or Nuevo as a social dance form
comes from ignorance and lack of skills.
They are danced socially in places where there is enough room and it is done
by people versed in the art of good navigation of the floor. The dancer is
also skilled enough to modify his direction, extension of moves and
selection of steps according to available space.
I appreciate reading about Timmy's, Trina's and Sean's experiences. I
respect their opinion as the are my personal friends. Respectfully I have
to say that they probably experienced "somebody's version" of Nuevo Tango,
somebody's personal style, hence the impression that Nuevo has to be danced
to "Nuevo Music" and that Nuevo is not as Argentine as the other dancing
forms.
I entirely disagree, Nuevo Tango is as Argentine as any other form of
Argentine Tango, it is generally danced to Di Sarli, Pugliese, Troilo, Calo,
Tanturi, etc, frequently to some Piazzolla at certain moment of the night;
Exactly as it is done with any other form of social dancing.
As to the communication with your partner, (IMO) this a personal matter, a
matter of preference.
Communication varies with your mood, the place, the music, the partner, the
style you favor and many other factors.
I personally believe that it is possible to achieve great communication
dancing any style of tango.
I finally wish to mention that it is best to reserve judgment to that we
know well, rather than to those entities that we ignore or only know
superfitially.
With best regards, Sergio.
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:03:16 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Beautifuly said, as always.
I assume that we share in the premise that the Tango, in Argentina and
for many people around the globe, represents much more than just a
dance. Its social aspects have been studied and widely published, and
this is not the place to present it. Suffice to say that it is a
subculture in Argentina, and for many people the sound of a Tango the
evoques the inner romanticism, mixed with degrees of machoism and
chivalry if tey are men, and maybe cherished memories. The Tango dance
is only a small part of the Tango phenomenon, and Nuevo is a smaller
part of the dance scene. At this point it is important to undrstand
that one can be a Tanguero without being a dancer. I know a Colombian,
a non-dancer who starts singing the lyrics of every old Tango he
hears, from the first note. Was Arminda Canteros a dancer? The impact
of Nuevo, and of Piazzola on these people, and I venture to say that
they are the Tango-loving majority, is minimal. It is probably like
suffering a piece of Schoenberg music on the radio, wiating for the
next classical piece.
Who suffers are the many Tango dancers schooled in the old ways. For
them the dance is the physical expression of their inner yearnings for
romanticism, chivalry, femininity, fleeting love. For many a milonga
was a cocoon where their fantasies could be physically played out. One
can argue that many see the milonga, for a few hours, as a bulwark
against the neon lights, the sirens and the crowds. For them Tango
Nuevo is a barbarian intruder from tahta world, ttearing appart their
cocoon of fantasies....
On 8/9/05, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
> We can divide tango into two main divisions: Social dancing and stage
> dancing.
>
> Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social dancing "Salon Style"
> meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to the one done on stage.
>
> Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will include :
>
> 1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most popular form taught by the
> largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto, Diego and
> Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo Pugliese, the late Todaro, the
> late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the best known tango teachers.
>
> This style includes all the others, it allows you to use open or close
> embrace according to your preference or the available space on the dancing
> floor.
>
> 2 - "Milonguero Style" danced only in close embrace. A form taught by Susana
> Miller, Tete, Cacho Dante, and many others Argentine and foreigners.
>
> This form includes a subset of steps adapted to crowded dancing floors.
>
> You naturally may dance this form because of preference in places with lots
> of room.
>
> 3 - "Nuevo Tango" as taught by Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas, Chicho and
> others: a pedagogical form, with its own technique, and which includes all
> the salon steps and in addition opens possibilities to use many figures that
> are rarely done by dancers of other styles (back boleos, colgadas, vocadas,
> soltadas, etc).
>
> It is normally danced in open embrace, which at times is very open.
>
> It generally uses tango music of the golden era, some people may use
> non-danceable music but then those people will play that sort of music for
> any style. They frequently dance the tango choreography with a background
> music but they do not dance to the music.
>
> This style called "Nuevo Tango" feels and looks very Argentine, it is as
> Argentine as any other form. The only non-Argentine forms are: American
> tango, International tango and Finish tango.
>
> The accomplished Nuevo Tango dancer impresses by the skill of his technique
> and the richness of the choreography he uses, with frequent sudden,
> unexpected embellishments.
>
> It is a style preferred by young dancers. Their milongas flow very smoothly
> even in relatively crowded spaces. It looks like a ballet where every
> couple moves around the floor, doing all sort of open figures without
> disturbing the other dancers. They most certainly dance to the music.
>
> The problem with using Salon open embrace or Nuevo as a social dance form
> comes from ignorance and lack of skills.
>
> They are danced socially in places where there is enough room and it is done
> by people versed in the art of good navigation of the floor. The dancer is
> also skilled enough to modify his direction, extension of moves and
> selection of steps according to available space.
>
> I appreciate reading about Timmy's, Trina's and Sean's experiences. I
> respect their opinion as the are my personal friends. Respectfully I have
> to say that they probably experienced "somebody's version" of Nuevo Tango,
> somebody's personal style, hence the impression that Nuevo has to be danced
> to "Nuevo Music" and that Nuevo is not as Argentine as the other dancing
> forms.
> I entirely disagree, Nuevo Tango is as Argentine as any other form of
> Argentine Tango, it is generally danced to Di Sarli, Pugliese, Troilo, Calo,
> Tanturi, etc, frequently to some Piazzolla at certain moment of the night;
> Exactly as it is done with any other form of social dancing.
>
> As to the communication with your partner, (IMO) this a personal matter, a
> matter of preference.
> Communication varies with your mood, the place, the music, the partner, the
> style you favor and many other factors.
>
> I personally believe that it is possible to achieve great communication
> dancing any style of tango.
>
> I finally wish to mention that it is best to reserve judgment to that we
> know well, rather than to those entities that we ignore or only know
> superfitially.
>
> With best regards, Sergio.
>
!
>
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:37:12 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Dear v0orbuwg1l,
I wish you would sign your contributions with your legal name, especially if you are going to cast aspersions on a subset of the good people on this list.
Tine
www.tangomuse.com
v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM> wrote: Beautifuly said, as always.
I assume that we share in the premise that the Tango, in Argentina and
for many people around the globe, represents much more than just a
dance. Its social aspects have been studied and widely published, and
this is not the place to present it. Suffice to say that it is a
subculture in Argentina, and for many people the sound of a Tango the
evoques the inner romanticism, mixed with degrees of machoism and
chivalry if tey are men, and maybe cherished memories. The Tango dance
is only a small part of the Tango phenomenon, and Nuevo is a smaller
part of the dance scene. At this point it is important to undrstand
that one can be a Tanguero without being a dancer. I know a Colombian,
a non-dancer who starts singing the lyrics of every old Tango he
hears, from the first note. Was Arminda Canteros a dancer? The impact
of Nuevo, and of Piazzola on these people, and I venture to say that
they are the Tango-loving majority, is minimal. It is probably like
suffering a piece of Schoenberg music on the radio, wiating for the
next classical piece.
Who suffers are the many Tango dancers schooled in the old ways. For
them the dance is the physical expression of their inner yearnings for
romanticism, chivalry, femininity, fleeting love. For many a milonga
was a cocoon where their fantasies could be physically played out. One
can argue that many see the milonga, for a few hours, as a bulwark
against the neon lights, the sirens and the crowds. For them Tango
Nuevo is a barbarian intruder from tahta world, ttearing appart their
cocoon of fantasies....
On 8/9/05, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> We can divide tango into two main divisions: Social dancing and stage
> dancing.
>
> Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social dancing "Salon Style"
> meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to the one done on stage.
>
> Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will include :
>
> 1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most popular form taught by the
> largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto, Diego and
> Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo Pugliese, the late Todaro, the
> late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the best known tango teachers.
>
> This style includes all the others, it allows you to use open or close
> embrace according to your preference or the available space on the dancing
> floor.
>
> 2 - "Milonguero Style" danced only in close embrace. A form taught by Susana
> Miller, Tete, Cacho Dante, and many others Argentine and foreigners.
>
> This form includes a subset of steps adapted to crowded dancing floors.
>
> You naturally may dance this form because of preference in places with lots
> of room.
>
> 3 - "Nuevo Tango" as taught by Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas, Chicho and
> others: a pedagogical form, with its own technique, and which includes all
> the salon steps and in addition opens possibilities to use many figures that
> are rarely done by dancers of other styles (back boleos, colgadas, vocadas,
> soltadas, etc).
>
> It is normally danced in open embrace, which at times is very open.
>
> It generally uses tango music of the golden era, some people may use
> non-danceable music but then those people will play that sort of music for
> any style. They frequently dance the tango choreography with a background
> music but they do not dance to the music.
>
> This style called "Nuevo Tango" feels and looks very Argentine, it is as
> Argentine as any other form. The only non-Argentine forms are: American
> tango, International tango and Finish tango.
>
> The accomplished Nuevo Tango dancer impresses by the skill of his technique
> and the richness of the choreography he uses, with frequent sudden,
> unexpected embellishments.
>
> It is a style preferred by young dancers. Their milongas flow very smoothly
> even in relatively crowded spaces. It looks like a ballet where every
> couple moves around the floor, doing all sort of open figures without
> disturbing the other dancers. They most certainly dance to the music.
>
> The problem with using Salon open embrace or Nuevo as a social dance form
> comes from ignorance and lack of skills.
>
> They are danced socially in places where there is enough room and it is done
> by people versed in the art of good navigation of the floor. The dancer is
> also skilled enough to modify his direction, extension of moves and
> selection of steps according to available space.
>
> I appreciate reading about Timmy's, Trina's and Sean's experiences. I
> respect their opinion as the are my personal friends. Respectfully I have
> to say that they probably experienced "somebody's version" of Nuevo Tango,
> somebody's personal style, hence the impression that Nuevo has to be danced
> to "Nuevo Music" and that Nuevo is not as Argentine as the other dancing
> forms.
> I entirely disagree, Nuevo Tango is as Argentine as any other form of
> Argentine Tango, it is generally danced to Di Sarli, Pugliese, Troilo, Calo,
> Tanturi, etc, frequently to some Piazzolla at certain moment of the night;
> Exactly as it is done with any other form of social dancing.
>
> As to the communication with your partner, (IMO) this a personal matter, a
> matter of preference.
> Communication varies with your mood, the place, the music, the partner, the
> style you favor and many other factors.
>
> I personally believe that it is possible to achieve great communication
> dancing any style of tango.
>
> I finally wish to mention that it is best to reserve judgment to that we
> know well, rather than to those entities that we ignore or only know
> superfitially.
>
> With best regards, Sergio.
>
>
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
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Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 17:14:21 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Sergio wrote:
"The problem with using Salon open embrace or Nuevo as a social dance form
comes from ignorance and lack of skills."
That ignorance and lack of skill is likely the result of teaching that
conveys tango as complex step patterns executed in an open embrace while
1950s Di Sarli instrumentals or frilly unrhythmic tangos play in the
background. In Buenos Aires, tango is so ingrained in the culture that
porten~os come to tango with an implicit knowledge of its essential
elements. For them, instruction in steps and figures may be sufficient to
develop the ability to dance tango with skill.
Those of us who learn tango outside its cultural frame of reference are
dependent upon our instructors to a degree that is unfathomable to most
Argentines, including those Argentines who regularly teach tango to
foreigners. The genius of those who originated the teaching of
milonguero-style tango was to recognize and create a pedagogy that
compensated for that dependence. By teaching tango as small rhythmic
elements, the milonguero-style instructors succeeded in developing the
social dance skills of their students.
In the bargain, the milonguero-style instructors packaged a largely
personal style of tango with their pedagogy. Fortunately, a particular
style of tango is not essential to the pedagogy. Adapting the pedagogy to
the teaching of other styles or to teaching that is independent of style
is completely possible.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 23:52:52 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
On 8/9/05, Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear v0orbuwg1l,
>
> I wish you would sign your contributions with your legal name, especially if you are going to cast aspersions on a subset of the good people on this=
list.
>
> Tine
> www.tangomuse.com
Dear Tine,
I hope you are not implying that, God forbid, I am bad? How am I
supposed to know if the people you refer to, are good? Because you say
so - but do I know you? Those that I am casting "aspersions" on do not
share my views, they seem to tolerate distractions on the
line-of-dance of the good, disciplined Tangueros...Witness the spate
of current messages complaining of etiquette corruption. So they are
not "good" in the sense of the main goal of this group, which is to
promote good Tango (or so I hope).
Casting aspersions is good to this group, it enlivens it, lately it
became boring, an exchange of addresses and cruise ads. Don't you think so?
I enjoy my anonymity, it resembles wearing a mask at the carnival in
Venice - you should try it. Maybe I will whisper my name in your ear
one night at Triangulo....
Until then yours respectfuly and sincerely,
John Smith_?
PS. Cheers to all, even those who do not stand up for what they
should, have fun...
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:04:49 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
(1) I take issue with Sergio's claim that milonguero is a subset of
salon.
Well, maybe you can stuff the tango menagerie into this box, but only
if you choose the most "lumpy" definition possible, as in "all
social dancing is salon".
But, that gives us a very weak ability to describe stylistic
differences between teachers or dancers.
(2) So, I continue to claim that Sergio lumps too much into "salon
style open & close".
I've actually watched all but three of his "salon list" teach tango.
I've also seen most of them dance tango socially. The really strange
thing is that many of them dance "social tango" in the milongas, but
in class they teach something closer to stage tango.
Gavito, the Zottos, Diego & Carolina, Nito & Elba are (or were) great
dancers and they teach great stuff, but in class they make extensive
use of choreographic and complicated figures that you just don't see
on the dance floor in Buenos Aires, e.g. the 8-Count Basic, big
leans, molinetes with sacadas, ganchos, boleos, enrosques, paradas, etc.
These elements are very typical of stage dancing, and typical of what
you see in many practices and millongas in the US.
When I first ventured onto a milonga in Buenos Aires almost 10 years
ago, I noticed immediately that much of what I learned had nothing to
do with "how the argentines danced".
(3) The style debate IS NOT ABOUT which style is good or bad.
Certainly, if you plan to go to Buenos Aires, you better have the
appropriate vocabulary and skill for the milongas you wish to attend.
Certainly, if you are going to perform on stage, you need to have the
skills and excitement to make an audience pay to watch you.
On Aug 9, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> We can divide tango into two main divisions: Social dancing and stage
> dancing.
>
> Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social dancing "Salon
> Style"
> meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to the one done on
> stage.
>
> Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will include :
>
> 1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most popular form taught by the
> largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto,
> Diego and
> Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo Pugliese, the late
> Todaro, the
> late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the best known tango
> teachers.
>
> This style includes all the others, it allows you to use open or close
> embrace according to your preference or the available space on the
> dancing
> floor.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:01:33 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
On 8/10/05, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
<snip><see below>
The voice of reason at last! Thanks.
If I may add, dance teaching has become a cottage industry all over
the world. Teachers have to make a living, so do the studios, the
recording industry, BsAs is a tourist trap. The more a teacher shows
off improbable figures, the more he/+she will attract the innocent. A
video is a coup!
Argentines who take up the dance (contrary to what many may think,
Tango danced at milongas is still regarded by many as lowlife In
Argentina) have a more realistic view of it and do not need much
teaching - it is part of their life.
In the US Tango acquired the glimmer and respectability of Broadway
and Hollywood, it is ex-centric (sic) of normal life but for a few.
Mix in the competitiveness of American society, lack of patience for
getting results, the tendance to be duped by marketing,
celebrity-status Tango teachers, ego stroking, lack of grinding
practice in front of a mirror and/or with a genuine coach, and you get
what you see.
To quote Tom Stermitz:
> These elements are very typical of stage dancing, and typical of what
> you see in many practices and millongas in the US.
The attempts by many to emulate stage dance on the social floor,
making fools of themselves in the process, intimidate other people who
do not dance too well, make them feel miserable and ruin their
evening. Ultimately they will quit. Schools are guilty of perpetrating
stage style shows during their open houses, instead of promoting the
fun of the social dance, which should provide their bread-and-butter.
Dancesport New York just conducted this kind of open houses in the
past 2 months. Is it a wonder then that they plan to close in
November?
Tango dance should be fun, not a competion, and unless the teachers
and schools will change their goals and methods, everybody will loose.
John Smith_? (With respects to Tine)
On 8/10/05, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> (1) I take issue with Sergio's claim that milonguero is a subset of
> salon.
>
> Well, maybe you can stuff the tango menagerie into this box, but only
> if you choose the most "lumpy" definition possible, as in "all
> social dancing is salon".
>
> But, that gives us a very weak ability to describe stylistic
> differences between teachers or dancers.
>
>
> (2) So, I continue to claim that Sergio lumps too much into "salon
> style open & close".
>
> I've actually watched all but three of his "salon list" teach tango.
> I've also seen most of them dance tango socially. The really strange
> thing is that many of them dance "social tango" in the milongas, but
> in class they teach something closer to stage tango.
>
> Gavito, the Zottos, Diego & Carolina, Nito & Elba are (or were) great
> dancers and they teach great stuff, but in class they make extensive
> use of choreographic and complicated figures that you just don't see
> on the dance floor in Buenos Aires, e.g. the 8-Count Basic, big
> leans, molinetes with sacadas, ganchos, boleos, enrosques, paradas, etc.
>
> These elements are very typical of stage dancing, and typical of what
> you see in many practices and millongas in the US.
>
> When I first ventured onto a milonga in Buenos Aires almost 10 years
> ago, I noticed immediately that much of what I learned had nothing to
> do with "how the argentines danced".
>
>
> (3) The style debate IS NOT ABOUT which style is good or bad.
>
> Certainly, if you plan to go to Buenos Aires, you better have the
> appropriate vocabulary and skill for the milongas you wish to attend.
> Certainly, if you are going to perform on stage, you need to have the
> skills and excitement to make an audience pay to watch you.
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
> > We can divide tango into two main divisions: Social dancing and stage
> > dancing.
> >
> > Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social dancing "Salon
> > Style"
> > meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to the one done on
> > stage.
> >
> > Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will include :
> >
> > 1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most popular form taught by the
> > largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and Miguel Zotto,
> > Diego and
> > Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo Pugliese, the late
> > Todaro, the
> > late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the best known tango
> > teachers.
> >
> > This style includes all the others, it allows you to use open or close
> > embrace according to your preference or the available space on the
> > dancing
> > floor.
>
>
>
>
> Tom Stermitz
> https://www.tango.org
> 2525 Birch St
> Denver, CO 80207
>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:31:21 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
On 8/10/05, v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@gmail.com> wrote:
> The attempts by many to emulate stage dance on the social floor,
> making fools of themselves in the process, intimidate other people who
> do not dance too well, make them feel miserable and ruin their
> evening.
To sharpen the previous argument: how many of you, accomplished Tango
dancers, don't experience a bit of stage-fright when going to a
milonga in the US? Like going to a dance competition, isn't it? Then
just think what lesser dancers feel. It shouldn't be like this - it
should be fun, like going to a restaurant.
John Smith_? (Tine?)
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 07:36:07 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Dear Sergio, I agree with you 100 percent. I personly
perfer number 3, Nuevo Tango. For me it seems to haue
a bit of everything in it and is the most chalenging,
interesting and fun. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
<sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> We can divide tango into two main divisions: Social
dancing and stage
> dancing.
>
> Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social
dancing "Salon Style"
> meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to the
one done on stage.
>
> Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will
include :
>
> 1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most popular
form taught by the
> largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and
Miguel Zotto, Diego and
> Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo
Pugliese, the late Todaro, the
> late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the
best known tango teachers.
>
> This style includes all the others, it allows you to
use open or close
> embrace according to your preference or the
available space on the dancing
> floor.
>
> 2 - "Milonguero Style" danced only in close embrace.
A form taught by Susana
> Miller, Tete, Cacho Dante, and many others Argentine
and foreigners.
>
> This form includes a subset of steps adapted to
crowded dancing floors.
>
> You naturally may dance this form because of
preference in places with lots
> of room.
>
> 3 - "Nuevo Tango" as taught by Gustavo Naveira,
Fabian Salas, Chicho and
> others: a pedagogical form, with its own technique,
and which includes all
> the salon steps and in addition opens possibilities
to use many figures that
> are rarely done by dancers of other styles (back
boleos, colgadas, vocadas,
> soltadas, etc).
>
> It is normally danced in open embrace, which at
times is very open.
>
> It generally uses tango music of the golden era,
some people may use
> non-danceable music but then those people will play
that sort of music for
> any style. They frequently dance the tango
choreography with a background
> music but they do not dance to the music.
>
> This style called "Nuevo Tango" feels and looks very
Argentine, it is as
> Argentine as any other form. The only
non-Argentine forms are: American
> tango, International tango and Finish tango.
>
> The accomplished Nuevo Tango dancer impresses by the
skill of his technique
> and the richness of the choreography he uses, with
frequent sudden,
> unexpected embellishments.
>
> It is a style preferred by young dancers. Their
milongas flow very smoothly
> even in relatively crowded spaces. It looks like a
ballet where every
> couple moves around the floor, doing all sort of
open figures without
> disturbing the other dancers. They most certainly
dance to the music.
>
> The problem with using Salon open embrace or Nuevo
as a social dance form
> comes from ignorance and lack of skills.
>
> They are danced socially in places where there is
enough room and it is done
> by people versed in the art of good navigation of
the floor. The dancer is
> also skilled enough to modify his direction,
extension of moves and
> selection of steps according to available space.
>
> I appreciate reading about Timmy's, Trina's and
Sean's experiences. I
> respect their opinion as the are my personal
friends. Respectfully I have
> to say that they probably experienced "somebody's
version" of Nuevo Tango,
> somebody's personal style, hence the impression that
Nuevo has to be danced
> to "Nuevo Music" and that Nuevo is not as Argentine
as the other dancing
> forms.
> I entirely disagree, Nuevo Tango is as Argentine as
any other form of
> Argentine Tango, it is generally danced to Di Sarli,
Pugliese, Troilo, Calo,
> Tanturi, etc, frequently to some Piazzolla at
certain moment of the night;
> Exactly as it is done with any other form of social
dancing.
>
> As to the communication with your partner, (IMO)
this a personal matter, a
> matter of preference.
> Communication varies with your mood, the place, the
music, the partner, the
> style you favor and many other factors.
>
> I personally believe that it is possible to achieve
great communication
> dancing any style of tango.
>
> I finally wish to mention that it is best to
reserve judgment to that we
> know well, rather than to those entities that we
ignore or only know
> superfitially.
>
> With best regards, Sergio.
>
> ________________
=== Message Truncated ===
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:26:53 -0500
From: Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9DOTSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles and floorcraft
John,
You ask: "... how many of you, accomplished Tango dancers, don't
experience a bit of stage-fright when going to a milonga in the US? Like
going to a dance competition, isn't it? Then just think what lesser
dancers feel. It shouldn't be like this - it should be fun, like going
to a restaurant."
I'm not sure that I would fall into the "accomplished" category, yet,
but, do I experience a bit of stage-fright? No, not really. At least I
don't think of it as such. Why? Because I'm not in competition with
any dancer out there. I just want the individual with whom I'm dancing
to have had a good enough dance that he wants to ask me for another. Do
I experience a whole lot of irritation? If they are continuously
screwing up the floor craft, you bet I do! Does my partner experience
stage fright? No. Is he an accomplished dancer? Not yet. Does he
experience a whole lot of irritation, frustration and aggravation?
Again, if the floor craft or navigation is not respected, absolutely he
does.
Earlier this Spring, we traveled to Atlanta to their first festival.
The floor craft was very nice. The 3-5 couples who chose to do the more
performance-style of open embrace moved into and stayed into the middle.
The rest entered, stayed and moved in the outside 2-3 lanes. Later this
Spring we went to a weekend workshop in another City. The floor was
relatively small. A fairly well known and very talented performance
style dancer entered the dance floor and stayed on the outside.
Immediately, 6 other couples did the same, with little to no respect.
My partner and I left as did 3 other couples who had traveled a distance
to attend this workshop.
You compared it to being like fun, like going to a restaurant. Let's
take that analogy a little further. It was like dressing up, expecting
to have a nice quiet, enjoyable evening dining with a very special
person and two tables over, someone had brought their 3 kids: ages 2, 4,
and 7. And, those little darlings were running uncontrolled all around
the restaurant, playing hide and seek, running around your table,
yanking on your chair, crawling under the tables, swinging around the
beams, giggling and laughing and having a ball. It certainly diminished
the enjoyment of all those around, except for the parents who are doting
on the little angels saying, "Aren't they cute."
Last weekend, this same fairly well known and very talented performance
style dancer entered the dance floor and again stayed on the outside
line, but this time was not followed by 3-5 other couples. Everyone had
a wonderful time because the floorcraft was respected.
It seems to me that floorcraft can make or break a milonga as it relates
to enjoyment.
Kind regards,
Susan
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 11:43:37 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and floorcraft
Susan,
I enjoyed your message, it warmed up my skeptical outlook.
I would only like to correct my usage of "fun" in relation to Tango.
Although Vals, Milonga and Canyengue are obviously "fun" dances of
different degrees, Tango is not. I have applied, or rather misapplied
the term "fun" to the deep pleasure of participating in a milonga.
SIncere regards,
v0orbugw1l
On 8/10/05, Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9dotsolutions.com> wrote:
> John,
>
> You ask: "... how many of you, accomplished Tango dancers, don't
> experience a bit of stage-fright when going to a milonga in the US? Like
> going to a dance competition, isn't it? Then just think what lesser
> dancers feel. It shouldn't be like this - it should be fun, like going
> to a restaurant."
>
> I'm not sure that I would fall into the "accomplished" category, yet,
> but, do I experience a bit of stage-fright? No, not really. At least I
> don't think of it as such. Why? Because I'm not in competition with
> any dancer out there. I just want the individual with whom I'm dancing
> to have had a good enough dance that he wants to ask me for another. Do
> I experience a whole lot of irritation? If they are continuously
> screwing up the floor craft, you bet I do! Does my partner experience
> stage fright? No. Is he an accomplished dancer? Not yet. Does he
> experience a whole lot of irritation, frustration and aggravation?
> Again, if the floor craft or navigation is not respected, absolutely he
> does.
>
> Earlier this Spring, we traveled to Atlanta to their first festival.
> The floor craft was very nice. The 3-5 couples who chose to do the more
> performance-style of open embrace moved into and stayed into the middle.
> The rest entered, stayed and moved in the outside 2-3 lanes. Later this
> Spring we went to a weekend workshop in another City. The floor was
> relatively small. A fairly well known and very talented performance
> style dancer entered the dance floor and stayed on the outside.
> Immediately, 6 other couples did the same, with little to no respect.
> My partner and I left as did 3 other couples who had traveled a distance
> to attend this workshop.
>
> You compared it to being like fun, like going to a restaurant. Let's
> take that analogy a little further. It was like dressing up, expecting
> to have a nice quiet, enjoyable evening dining with a very special
> person and two tables over, someone had brought their 3 kids: ages 2, 4,
> and 7. And, those little darlings were running uncontrolled all around
> the restaurant, playing hide and seek, running around your table,
> yanking on your chair, crawling under the tables, swinging around the
> beams, giggling and laughing and having a ball. It certainly diminished
> the enjoyment of all those around, except for the parents who are doting
> on the little angels saying, "Aren't they cute."
>
> Last weekend, this same fairly well known and very talented performance
> style dancer entered the dance floor and again stayed on the outside
> line, but this time was not followed by 3-5 other couples. Everyone had
> a wonderful time because the floorcraft was respected.
>
> It seems to me that floorcraft can make or break a milonga as it relates
> to enjoyment.
>
> Kind regards,
> Susan
>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:49:38 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles
Tom says:
"1) I take issue with Sergio's claim that milonguero is a subset
of salon. "
Tete was the first person as far as know, that identified "milonguero style"
as a style worth to be taught as such.
When you ask him ,as I did, what style do you dance and teach he says
"Salon".
If you have his teaching tape at the beginning he defines his style as
"Salon".
By "salon" he means a social dancing form to be differentiated from stage
tango.
From the historical point of view we know that our grandparents danced tango
in a form similar to "Canyengue". They danced in close embrace, with a
pronounced degree of "plie" "arrugue" (bending of the knees), they did
ochos, corriditas, mordidas, sentadas, walks, etc.
Since people learned by observing and practicing with their friends, there
was a great degree of personal differences and styles.
As tango was accepted as a dancing form by society at large the embrace was
changed so that it would be some minimal degree of separation between the
partners.
In the forties, Carlos Alberto Estevez (Petroleo) changed the way tango was
danced; he invented the turn (molinete), contrafrente, boleos, etc. He
adopted a more erect posture.
There were many great dancers such as Todaro (the teacher of Miguel Zotto
and Carlos Copello), El Cachafaz, Virulazo and many others, each one with
his own style and his own steps.
This form of dancing of the forties is the one we call "Salon Style" today.
People continued dancing in open embrace and in close embrace. The
choreography continued to develop.
It makes sense to think that when the floor is crowded you dance in a
compact way in close embrace and without embellishments (cortes or
firuletes). Further more cortes and firuletes were prohibited in such
places, those that used them were labeled "compadritos" and spelled from the
milonga.
Tete identified a dancing form, similar to salon close embrace, that it had
some characteristics of its own:
A very close embrace, and figures modified to be done in very little areas:
ocho cortado, back ochos without shifting of the hips, steppig in place,
balanceo, etc).
He did not call this style by any other name than "salon", since it was one
of the many variations of salon style.
It was Susana Miller who later on decided to call that style "Milonguero". A
bad name since it means many different things.
Tom also says:
"2) So, I continue to claim that Sergio lumps too much
into "salon
style open & close".
"I've actually watched all but three of his "salon list" teach tango.
I've also seen most of them dance tango socially. The really strange
thing is that many of them dance "social tango" in the milongas, but
in class they teach something closer to stage tango."
In Argentina people recognize two dancing form "Salon" (the one danced in
the salons) and "Stage"
the one done in theaters or for exhibition.
"Salon" has an infinite number of styles, as many as there are dancers.
Everybody dances in a different way. Some styles are done by one person
only, others are copied and reproduced by several people, some are very
popular.
Out of that infinite number of styles there are some that are more spread
because somebody decided to teach it.
So I described the three forms that are more popular and specified who
teaches each particular style.
I do not "lump" anything, I do not invent anything. I was born and grew up
in Buenos Aires, I live there half of the year. I live the rest of the time
in Erie,PA. So I am in the unique situation (together with a few more
people) of knowing what is going on with tango in both places.
The Argentine tango instructor teaches what he is asked to teach. He cannot
imagine that somebody is going to bring him (a very well known tango dancer)
all the way from Argentina just to teach social dancing.
There are things that in Argentina are taken for granted but they are not
known by the foreign student of tango.
So if you wish to be taught social dancing say so.
If your milongas are very crowded tell the instructor you wish to learn
tango in small fragments that you may be able to use as you please. When he
teaches a long figure, ask him to dissect the various components so that you
may use them individually and in a different order. If he teaches figures
that move contrary to the line of dancing ask him to modify it so that it
moves counter clockwise, etc.
Summary "Salon tango' is any social form of dancing tango. There are many
styles of Salon tango, some are done by very few people and others are very
popular.
"Milonguero style" and "Nuevo tango" are styles that belong in salon tango
because they are done socially.
Some forms are rich and fluid enough that can also be used for stage or for
exhibitions others are simple and repetitive so that are only done socially
and are not useful for the theater.
I have identified the styles in association with their teachers: Salon: with
Carlos Copello, Diego and Carolina, Nito and Elba, Mingo Pugliese, Todaro,
Virulazo, Lampazo, The Zoto brothers, Carlos Copes, and every body else
since this is the 'root' the 'mother' from where any other form develops by
selection of some of its reach choreography and by adapting its technique to
some specific conditions.
"Milonguero style" Susana Miller . This style is called "salon" by its first
instructor (Tete).
"Nuevo" Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas, Chicho Frumboli, Pablo Veron, Claudio
and Marianita in Mar del Plata. The developers of this style called it
"Salon" they do not like the use of "Nuevo".
So as you can see Tom, I am "lumping" nothing, I am merely reflecting the
reality as seen and described by the developers of those styles, further
more each substyle is correctly and distinctly identified by its association
to its instructors. If we used names instead of such described association
we could be talking about different entities without knowing it.
I could say that you Tom, use a misnomer when you call the Denver Tango
Festival a 'Milonguero affair' when most people there dance salon close
embrace as I have personally pointed to you.
But then anyone can use any names: so Gasoline is called naphta in Argentina
and Bencine in Germany. :))
With best regards, Sergio.
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 08:56:48 -0700
From: Sean de PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles
Hola Sergio,
I very much enjoy your posts. They are always well
considered and informative, and it is a privilege to
have your insiders view. I was not aware that porteqos
label the unique and distinct styles of Gustavo,
Fabian and Chicho as "Nuevo". Other Argentinos have
taught me to believe that this is a North American
label. If we must lump together the three different
styles of these masters under the label of "Nuevo",
then perhaps we need a different name for this other
dance that I have heard called Nuevo. I dont think we
need a label for these three masters. As you pointed
out, "Salon" and "Stage" are adequate to describe all
of the possibilities of the argentine tango. Inventing
new names for personal style just confuses everyone.
To my eyes, the Nuevo I have seen danced in the US and
Canada is not at all like the style of Gustavo, Fabian
or Chicho. Rather it has become some new dance. It is
not fair to call it bad tango, because the people who
dance it are very skilled at what they do. But it is
not danced to tango music, it is not danced with tango
choreography, and it is not danced in a tango embrace,
whether open or closed. Most important, it does not
have the same spirit as argentine tango.
To me at least, argentine tango is very much a dance
between a man and a woman. Each dances an archetypal
role that gives tango its smoldering power. "John
Smith" hits the mark exactly when he refers to the
milonga as a fantasy world. At the milonga, the men
are strong and sure, and the women demure and
feminine. The Nuevo I see does not have this. Just as
in the neon world, male and female energy are blended
in both roles. Hence Trini's assertions that it is not
macho like the tango. The Nuevo dancers do not
threaten our stage act because they are barbarians. It
is their androgyny that shatters our carefully crafted
illusion.
BTW, no one in our region dances this North American
Nuevo. I have not seen it in Miami either. I wonder
where you have seen it? Perhaps your native eyes can
discern some remnant of its argentine roots. But if
this thing is argentine, it is far too subtle a thing
for my North American eyes to discern.
Sean
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:45:03 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - Cayengue
Sergio wrote:
>From the historical point of view we know that our grandparents danced
tango in a form similar to "Canyengue".<
Some notes on Cayengue:
Cayengue was called Paso de Candombe. Paso de Candombe does not have a
flexion of the knees. The Paso de Candombe is performed with straight left
leg forward. Some Cayengue dancers from Buenos Aires move both legs forward
without flexing the knees. Pedro Figari in his portraits left on canvas
vividly the Paso de Candombe. Cayengue was a contemporary dance to Candombe.
The tango orillero and Milonga seemed to have been danced with knees flexed.
The Cayengue shown nowadays does not appear to be the same as the one
performed by afroargentines in the past: when Candombe was outlawed and
retreated to closed quarters. Cayengue means to dance like a black person.
Hardly anybody (whites, criollos, immigrants, etc.) were willing to dance
like a black person because blacks were considered of low status (baja
estofa).
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:05:07 -0500
From: Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9DOTSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - Cayengue
Bruno and Sergio thank you for your edification on Cayengue.
Why isn't Cayengue danced more in the US today? Are you saying Cayengue
isn't danced in Argentina much today for the reasons Bruno articulated?"
My partner and I went to visit a friend of mine last year and he taught
us a little Cayengue. It was a hoot! I don't know when I had so much
fun. It was like two kids playing in a sandbox together. No, it wasn't
like tango, vals or milonga but it was playful and a dance thrown in
occasionally at a milonga seems to me could be a lot of fun.
Thanks,
Susan
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:18:59 -0600
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> I have identified the styles in association with their teachers: Salon: with
> Carlos Copello, Diego and Carolina, Nito and Elba, Mingo Pugliese, Todaro,
> Virulazo, Lampazo, The Zoto brothers, Carlos Copes, and every body else
> since this is the 'root' the 'mother' from where any other form develops by
> selection of some of its reach choreography and by adapting its technique to
> some specific conditions.
>
> "Milonguero style" Susana Miller . This style is called "salon" by its first
> instructor (Tete).
>
> "Nuevo" Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas, Chicho Frumboli, Pablo Veron, Claudio
> and Marianita in Mar del Plata. The developers of this style called it
> "Salon" they do not like the use of "Nuevo".
Hi Sergio,
I think your list of milonguero style instructors is a bit short. I
guess it could be because you specialize in tango Salon you might be
unaware of many others who teach Milonguero in Buenos Aires. To help
you here is just a small sample of other instructors who teach Tango
Milonguero in Buenos Aires for your future reference: Jorge Firpo, La
Academia de Ana Maria Schapira, Hector Falcon, Ricardo Maceiras (El
Pibe Sarandi) y Elizabeth Guerrero, Roberto Graciela, Alicia Pons,
Cacho Dante and Rosana Devesa, Eugenia Cuyas, Ana Gregori, Maria
Plazaola - all of these people advertise themselves as instructors of
Tango Milonguero. There are of course more.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke, helpfully
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:44:03 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Dear Oleh,
> Milonguero in Buenos Aires. To help you here is just a small
> sample of other instructors who teach Tango Milonguero in
> Buenos Aires for your future reference: Jorge Firpo, La
> Academia de Ana Maria Schapira, Hector Falcon, Ricardo
> Maceiras (El Pibe Sarandi) y Elizabeth Guerrero, Roberto
> Graciela, Alicia Pons, Cacho Dante and Rosana Devesa, Eugenia
> Cuyas, Ana Gregori, Maria Plazaola - all of these people
> advertise themselves as instructors of Tango Milonguero.
And do they teach milonguero style as we define it? Or they use the term the
general way, or to attract students?
I've just checked an instruction video from Jorge Firpo (just to assure that
I remember well), what he is doing is a close embrace salón and not the 50s
style. (full fledged ochos, strong v-shape, sometimes lets the lady go
5-10cm away from his body during molinetes/giros)
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
"Follow those who seek the truth.
Run from those who claim to have found it."
"There is more than one way to cook an omlette."
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:07:32 -0600
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Áron, good point.
This is how they promote themselves and how _they_ define their style
(as opposed to Tango Salon for example). I _personnally_ know that the
following instructors teach Milonguero style in Buenos Aires ("as we
define it"): Susana Miller, La Academia de Ana Maria Schapira, Ricardo
Maceiras (El Pibe Sarandi) y Elizabeth Guerrero, Roberto Graciela,
Alicia Pons, Cacho Dante and Rosana Devesa, Eugenia Cuyas, Maria
Plazaola because I either have taken lessons with them or have danced
with their students and have discussed their instructor's style. On
the other hand Muma teaches milonguero style too (as we define it)
even though she advertises simply milonga con traspie lessons.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
On 8/10/05, Áron ECSEDY <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> Dear Oleh,
>
> > Milonguero in Buenos Aires. To help you here is just a small
> > sample of other instructors who teach Tango Milonguero in
> > Buenos Aires for your future reference: Jorge Firpo, La
> > Academia de Ana Maria Schapira, Hector Falcon, Ricardo
> > Maceiras (El Pibe Sarandi) y Elizabeth Guerrero, Roberto
> > Graciela, Alicia Pons, Cacho Dante and Rosana Devesa, Eugenia
> > Cuyas, Ana Gregori, Maria Plazaola - all of these people
> > advertise themselves as instructors of Tango Milonguero.
>
> And do they teach milonguero style as we define it? Or they use the term the
> general way, or to attract students?
>
> I've just checked an instruction video from Jorge Firpo (just to assure that
> I remember well), what he is doing is a close embrace salón and not the 50s
> style. (full fledged ochos, strong v-shape, sometimes lets the lady go
> 5-10cm away from his body during molinetes/giros)
>
> Cheers,
> Aron
>
>
>
>
>
> Ecsedy Áron
> ***********
> Aron ECSEDY
>
> Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
> ICQ# 46386265
>
> https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
> * * * * *
> https://www.milonga.hu/
>
> "Follow those who seek the truth.
> Run from those who claim to have found it."
>
> "There is more than one way to cook an omlette."
>
>
--
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:47:55 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Sergio Vandekier wrote recently a veiled disproval of criticism
directed at the Nuevo style:
> I finally wish to mention that it is best to reserve judgment to that we know well,
> rather than to those entities that we ignore or only know superficially.
Entities - a system, a cuisine, a modus vivendi, a culture, a dance
style, that appeals to us, that we assign it a value and we adopt it
as part of our own personality. Eventually our peers adopt these
same values and then these become a societal trait which, if we
cherish we defend.
Sergio's suggestion to withold judgement on entities we do not know,
etc. meaning Nuevo, counters human nature. Some of our biggest
pleasures are drawn from people watching, dance watching, tanguero/a
watching AND judging what we see - superficially while comparing with
our ingrained values. And if what we see counters those, we may not
appreciate it, and react in an appropriate fashion, which may be as
simple as looking aside, or thundering harmlessly on a mailing list.
It is the normal way to behave.
The corollary of this short exposition is that you shall feel free
judging Tango styles to your heart's content, and if you do not like
what you see, don't be cowed by pundits and name throwing around, and
voice your opinion to milonga organizers.
It should be understood that Nuevo differs from classic Tango with
which it interferes, at the current skill level, at milongas and it
should be given its own space and/or time.
Press on.
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:38:25 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Dear Tom:
I agree with Sergio about so called "milongero style"
being a subset of salon, as is "nuevo style". I think
that a person should be able to enjoy and dance ALL
THE SUBSET styles depending on the circumstances on
the dance floor, and not be restricted to just one. I
like to go directly from an Argentine close embrace
(where my partner is not off, out of balance, to one
side of me, with her eyes closed, or staring of into
out space zoned out, leaning on me for all of her
support) to an open embrace where I can play with some
of the stage stuff for fun when there is room to
spread out on the dance floor. I can only do this
when my partner is on her own balance ALL THE TIME IN
FRONT OF ME!!, looking at me, and paying attention to
what is going on around her. My big problem with the
so called "milongero style" dancers I have known, is
that when I go from close embrace to open, my partner,
the girl, suddenly has to stop dancing and complain
that she does not know what to do, because she does
not know any open embrace stuff at all. This is a bad
thing.
I say that one should be able to dance all subsets of
salon, and not promote a single subset, because it is
totally limiting to a dancer's possibles. Perhaps
this is one reason why the new up and coming young
dancers in Buenos Aires like to play with the "nuevo
tango". It has some "stage stuff adapted to salon,
some "close embrace stuff" and some really "wild
stuff". Good for them. They are including open and
close embrace together, which is great...and they are
experimenting with new stuff, instead of trying to
dance like the older people from years before. Out of
these new experiments, hopefully, yet another brand
new subset of salon will be born, which we can all
talk about in the near future.
Tango grows...it is not stagnant, predictable and
dull. That maybe good for growing a tango group very
large or for planning out a business, but it is bad
for the soul. It is hamburger instead of steak. My
opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 Cell
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG> wrote:
> (1) I take issue with Sergio's claim that milonguero
> is a subset of
> salon.
>
> Well, maybe you can stuff the tango menagerie into
> this box, but only
> if you choose the most "lumpy" definition possible,
> as in "all
> social dancing is salon".
>
> But, that gives us a very weak ability to describe
> stylistic
> differences between teachers or dancers.
>
>
> (2) So, I continue to claim that Sergio lumps too
> much into "salon
> style open & close".
>
> I've actually watched all but three of his "salon
> list" teach tango.
> I've also seen most of them dance tango socially.
> The really strange
> thing is that many of them dance "social tango" in
> the milongas, but
> in class they teach something closer to stage tango.
>
> Gavito, the Zottos, Diego & Carolina, Nito & Elba
> are (or were) great
> dancers and they teach great stuff, but in class
> they make extensive
> use of choreographic and complicated figures that
> you just don't see
> on the dance floor in Buenos Aires, e.g. the 8-Count
> Basic, big
> leans, molinetes with sacadas, ganchos, boleos,
> enrosques, paradas, etc.
>
> These elements are very typical of stage dancing,
> and typical of what
> you see in many practices and millongas in the US.
>
> When I first ventured onto a milonga in Buenos Aires
> almost 10 years
> ago, I noticed immediately that much of what I
> learned had nothing to
> do with "how the argentines danced".
>
>
> (3) The style debate IS NOT ABOUT which style is
> good or bad.
>
> Certainly, if you plan to go to Buenos Aires, you
> better have the
> appropriate vocabulary and skill for the milongas
> you wish to attend.
> Certainly, if you are going to perform on stage, you
> need to have the
> skills and excitement to make an audience pay to
> watch you.
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
> > We can divide tango into two main divisions:
> Social dancing and stage
> > dancing.
> >
> > Most people (in Argentina) call any form of social
> dancing "Salon
> > Style"
> > meaning the one done on the salons as opposed to
> the one done on
> > stage.
> >
> > Salon Style differenrenciated in such a way will
> include :
> >
> > 1 - "Salon close and open embrace" the most
> popular form taught by the
> > largest number of instructors such as Osvaldo and
> Miguel Zotto,
> > Diego and
> > Carolina, Nito and Elba, Pupy Costello, Mingo
> Pugliese, the late
> > Todaro, the
> > late Cieri, the late Gavito and any other of the
> best known tango
> > teachers.
> >
> > This style includes all the others, it allows you
> to use open or close
> > embrace according to your preference or the
> available space on the
> > dancing
> > floor.
>
>
>
>
> Tom Stermitz
> https://www.tango.org
> 2525 Birch St
> Denver, CO 80207
>
>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:01:39 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - it ain't what YOU want
Derik Rawson wrote:
> I like to go directly from an Argentine close embrace
> (where my partner is not off, out of balance, to one
> side of me, with her eyes closed, or staring of into
> out space zoned out, leaning on me for all of her
> support) to an open embrace where I can play with some
> of the stage stuff for fun when there is room to
> spread out on the dance floor. I can only do this
> when my partner is on her own balance ALL THE TIME IN
> FRONT OF ME!!, looking at me, and paying attention to
> what is going on around her. My big problem with the
> so called "milongero style" dancers I have known, is
> that when I go from close embrace to open, my partner,
> the girl, suddenly has to stop dancing and complain
> that she does not know what to do, because she does
> not know any open embrace stuff at all. This is a bad
> thing.
>
Uh, why is this a bad thing? You were the one that broke the embrace and
her trance, you were the one that wanted to entertain yourself - *you*
were the one that screwed up, not her. You're supposed to adapt to what
she wants, not the other way around.
Judging from your description above, maybe you need to be dancing by
yourself? ;-P
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:46:33 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
I think we are all able to _choose_ whether _we want to_ dance any
particular style. (Unfortunately we don't get to choose whether we are
able to!)
Some like to have several styles of tango they can dance, others prefer
to focus on one. Some also do other dances, some do not. I would see
it as a restriction of my tango, for example, if someone thought it
should be compulsory for me to also learn hip-hop and ballet...
Learning from a wider palette can be broadening, or just diluting.
Changing styles within the dancer is a personal choice - If I try to go
from close embrace to open, and my partner, 'suddenly has to stop
dancing' - then I should go back to close embrace and stay there while
I dance with her. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her choice
- but I should choose someone else for the next tanda if I want to
dance open, or mixed.
my 2.2 c (including local taxes)
Gary
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:26:41 -0700
From: Bailar Tango <bailartangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
To new followers, I recommend starting in open-embrace, once comfortable
& fairly fluent, easing into close-embrace, at a time of their choosing. Emphasizing
that they get to choose the embrace, not the leader. Also recommend being
comfortable & familiar with lots of orchestras: new, old, inbetween, as well as
alt.tango. Above all to have fun, meet lots of interesting people, enjoy a community
of dancers & keep an open mind.
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:38:18 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - In Defense of Open-Embrace
On 8/11/05, Bailar Tango <bailartangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To new followers, I recommend starting in open-embrace, once comfortable
> & fairly fluent, easing into close-embrace,
Well, Open-Embrace is getting a bad rap these days. In my opinion as
a man however, nothing can compare with the satisfaction of having a
beautiful lady in your embrace, being able to see her neck, sparkling
perhaps with a bit of jewelry, see her arm, her lips, a lock of hair,
taste her breath, while moving together within an enveloping Tango
melody...
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:55:44 -0400
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - In Defense of Open-Embrace
--- v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> In my opinion as a man however, nothing can compare
> with the satisfaction of having a beautiful lady in
> your embrace, being able to see her neck, her
> [...] arm, her lips, a lock of hair, taste her
> breath, while moving together within an
> enveloping Tango melody...
Yes, there is something better.
In stead of seeing, I rather feel her puting the
aforementioned body parts (and some other) on me,
in a close-embrace dance,
with my eyes closed (most of the time anyway). ;-)
For those whose thoughts are not pure: The above
message is meant to be sensual, not sexual.
Miguel
Find your next car at https://autos.yahoo.ca
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:45:04 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - In Defense of Open-Embrace
To be fair, I was waiting for you...;->
On 8/11/05, Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> In stead of seeing, I rather feel her puting the
> aforementioned body parts (and some other) on me,
> in a close-embrace dance,
> with my eyes closed (most of the time anyway). ;-)
This explains rather graphically why you cannot move away from her and
open - for all to see...
My dear chap, you are already on to the main meal, while in
open-embrace one does not have the problem you have, one eats both the
appetizers and the desserts, then go home for the main
celebration...with encores...
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:19:38 -0600
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - In Defense of Open-Embrace
v0orbodsfs32nmk schemed thus:
> To be fair, I was waiting for you...;->
...
> My dear chap, you are already on to the main meal, while in
> open-embrace one does not have the problem you have, one eats both the
> appetizers and the desserts,
Your craftiness will soon surpass that of Karl Rove, what's-your-name,
keep it up.
Why not go one step further and admire your partner from across the
room then, eating not only appetizers and the desserts, but also
breakfast, lunch and dinner? Why for that matter get out of bed? You
might as well fantasize straight in there.
Intimacy, my dear pal, requires touching each other. It's that little
bit of secret Susana refers to in her article and it is that little
bit of secret of which you obviously remain oblivious.
Dream on, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
On 8/11/05, v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@gmail.com> wrote:
> To be fair, I was waiting for you...;->
>
> On 8/11/05, Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > In stead of seeing, I rather feel her puting the
> > aforementioned body parts (and some other) on me,
> > in a close-embrace dance,
> > with my eyes closed (most of the time anyway). ;-)
>
> This explains rather graphically why you cannot move away from her and
> open - for all to see...
> My dear chap, you are already on to the main meal, while in
> open-embrace one does not have the problem you have, one eats both the
> appetizers and the desserts, then go home for the main
> celebration...with encores...
>
.
>
--
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:33:39 -0400
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - In Defense of Open-Embrace
--- v0orbuwg1l wrote:
> ...go home for the main celebrations....
Dear v0orbuwg1l,
You did not wait in vain, and you did not read the
entire message. Part of my message said "....sensual,
not sexual." :-<
Oh, and yes, I prefer close embrace, but I do dance
open, and I will try this nuevo stuff one day.
Most of the dancer's I've seen to-date seem to be
more preoccupied with themselves than with the
connection. Until I saw Chicho's videos. His
dancing shows that there could indeed be emotional
connection with nuevo (in a more than open embrace).
Seeing Homer and Charity in a demo confirmed it
as well.
To use your metaphor, one could be apple pie, while
the other one tiramisu. Both are deserts, but the
experiences are very different.
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:46:24 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Derik... Derik... Derik:
When you propose to dance with a woman in close embrace you've entered into
an informal contract which she accepted but when you change to open embrace she
has the right to decline and stop dancing. The opposite situation would also
be true. You were wrong to change the embrace without asking her first.
As for your other comment "I am talking about women who dance close embrace
who refuse to learn open embrace and cannot dance it. This is a very different
kind of thing. It is about not "growing" in the dance..... This is a bad
thing." Why should anyone, man or woman be obligated to learn other forms of
tango if they feel comfortable and like to dance only one style of tango? The
last time I checked, we don't live in a dictatorship and you weren't elected
king.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 8/10/2005 17:39:06 Pacific Daylight Time,
rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM writes:
My big problem with the
so called "milongero style" dancers I have known, is
that when I go from close embrace to open, my partner,
the girl, suddenly has to stop dancing and complain
that she does not know what to do, because she does
not know any open embrace stuff at all. This is a bad
thing.
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:57:47 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - Cayengue
Susan Munoz wrote:
>"Why isn't Cayengue danced more in the US today? Are you saying Cayengue
isn't danced in Argentina much today for the reasons Bruno articulated?"<
My 2 cents:
I think one of the reasons why Cayengue is not danced more in the United
States is because the external forces in the way of people and companies
sponsoring and promoting Cayengue music and dance are not there.
Cayengue is not danced in Argentina much today because there is no interest
in learning the dance, history, and music behind Cayengue. It is not
fashionable. It would probably need the music and dance to be reinvented in
other countries such as the United States or Europe.
External forces which in the past created interest among Argentine artists
to promote their own black music and dance such as: the production of
theater plays in the first decade of the 1900's:
- 1867: The Panamanian artist German Mackay performed "El negro Schicoba" at
the Victoria theater in Buenos Aires. This was a play about a black seller
of brooms.
- 1867: The black North-American pianist Louis Moreau Gottscahlk performed
in Buenos Aires interpreting black music from Cuba, Puerto Rico, Brasil, and
Louisiana.
- 1868: The Afro-North American Alberto Phillips, dancer and pianist,
presented in Buenos Aires two successful shows: Ethiopian Carnival and The
River Plate Railway Rambler. Phillips sang music by Stephen Collins Foster
usually accompanied on bass by banjo music.
- (1869 - 1871): The group called the Christy Minstrels (James Diamond,
George Jackson, Carl Steele) accompanied by Alberto Phillips performed
modified versions of afro-argentine music.
- 1889: The famous black violinist Jose White performed in Buenos Aires.
- 1889: Claudio Jose Domingo Brindis de Salas, Cuban, called the Caribean
Paganini performed in Buenos aires.
- 1909: The famous comedian and short person "Little Peter" performed at the
Casino Theater in Buenos Aires, and successfully promoted the Cake Walk
dance in Buenos Aires.
Regards,
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:05 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] On Style and Styles - Cayengue
Bruno and Sergio thank you for your edification on Cayengue.
Why isn't Cayengue danced more in the US today? Are you saying Cayengue
isn't danced in Argentina much today for the reasons Bruno articulated?"
My partner and I went to visit a friend of mine last year and he taught
us a little Cayengue. It was a hoot! I don't know when I had so much
fun. It was like two kids playing in a sandbox together. No, it wasn't
like tango, vals or milonga but it was playful and a dance thrown in
occasionally at a milonga seems to me could be a lot of fun.
Thanks,
Susan
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:21:21 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Sergio, Tom and others have presented some interesting perspectives on
styles of tango.
I often wonder how much the differing perspectives on what succeeds as
instruction for social dancing is the result of masters from one culture
teaching beginners from another. Such a relationship is bound to lead to
very different expectations on the two sides.
Many beginners take up tango as a diversion from their daily lives. If
they are taught in step patterns, they don't know enough to get inside the
big figures and take them apart and make them their own. They simply
collect step patterns thinking that they are learning to dance tango. They
are also unlikely to know enough to ask the instructor to teach tango as
small elements or in any other way that might facilitate a quicker mastery
of rudimentary social dance skills. Moreover, if they were attracted by a
tango show, such as Forever Tango or Boccatango, they may want to be
taught those steamy stage moves without realizing that social tango is
somewhat different.
At the same time, the big-name instructors would be shocked to learn that
they have been brought to town to teach people who haven't a clue about
tango and may never develop a clue. The big-name instructors got inside
tango themselves and made it their own. It doesn't likely occur to them
that it might be easier for the students to learn a simplified or diluted
form of what they know. And if it did occur to them, they may view
offering such instruction as compromising the quality of what they are
teaching--akin to offering by a paint-by-the-numbers approach to learning
tango.
If North Americans are to dance Argentine tango socially with some
semblance of authenticity or skill (as defined by the way tango is danced
socially in Buenos Aires), people are needed who can bridge the gap. The
people in the best position to facilitate such learning are the local
teachers.
But most local teachers are likely to teach the way that they themselves
learned. Because they were able to find their way into tango with the
instruction they received, they don't understand that others may be unable
to follow the same path to mastery. Consequently, we have ended up with a
bunch of local teachers touting their brand of instruction in a way that
has grown tiresome in it is predictabilty.
One group maintains that its style is the only authentic form of social
dancing, and other teachers are teaching what amounts to stage tango.
Another group claims that its style is danced and taught by the best of
the big-name dancers. Yet another group claims that its style is the
direction in which tango is evolving.
Yet across these styles, bigger differences are found in the methods of
teaching and in the ways beginners dance than in those who have developed
mastery. The first group emphasizes small elements, and the beginners
plod along to the music without much quality of movement, sense of form or
inventiveness. The second emphasizes step patterns, and the beginners
attempt to execute complex step patterns without regard to the music or
the ronda. The third emphasizes the underlying structure of tango, and
the beginners spin wildly across the dance floor without seeming regard
for others. In examining the pathologies of how the beginners in each
group dance, we frequently mistake the shortcomings of the instructional
methods for the characteristics of each style of dance.
With persistent work, many people break through the limitations of the
method by which they learned tango, but I think it is much easier to
develop a well-rounded mastery by pursuing all three methods of learning.
Only local teachers can develop a consistent program embracing all three
methods of teaching.
With best regards,
Steve
"Maybe you can live with your conscience, but can you dance with it?" --
James Stone
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:48:35 -0700
From: Trini de PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Susana Miller has a practical way of looking at
things: If you want to be great dancer, then
specialize in one style of dance. If one tries to be
equally good in all of the styles, then one will only
end up being mediocre in any style.
This meshes with something Maria Cieri told us about
the earlier days. Since dancers of her generation
only danced within their neighborhood with the same
orchestra every week, they specialized in dancing to a
particular orchestra. So overall, there was both
more variety and greater expertise than there is
today. She and Rodolfo were Pugliese dancers.
I think it comes down to just how good one wants to
become and what one wants out of the dance. One of
the things I discovered with nuevo was that it allowed
me to enjoy dancing with less experienced partners
that might not be as enjoyable in traditional tango.
For me, that is enough to learn it, though I have no
intention of becoming an full-fledge expert.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:51:10 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles
Trini wrote:
Susana Miller: "If you want to be great dancer, then
specialize in one style of dance. If one tries to be
equally good in all of the styles, then one will only
end up being mediocre in any style".
I do not need to be a great dancer, but I want to be a good one at all
styles of tango.
Do I have any hope, or I just bound to be mediocre?
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:46:44 -0400
From: v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles - In Defense of Open-Embrace
Huh, a bit dense, aren't we? And totally devoid of a sense of
humor...Pity, that's also part of a teacher's skill.....
On 8/11/05, Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@gmail.com> wrote:
> v0orbodsfs32nmk schemed thus:
>
> > To be fair, I was waiting for you...;->
> ...
> > My dear chap, you are already on to the main meal, while in
> > open-embrace one does not have the problem you have, one eats both the
> > appetizers and the desserts,
>
> Your craftiness will soon surpass that of Karl Rove, what's-your-name,
> keep it up.
>
> Why not go one step further and admire your partner from across the
> room then, eating not only appetizers and the desserts, but also
> breakfast, lunch and dinner? Why for that matter get out of bed? You
> might as well fantasize straight in there.
>
> Intimacy, my dear pal, requires touching each other. It's that little
> bit of secret Susana refers to in her article and it is that little
> bit of secret of which you obviously remain oblivious.
>
> Dream on, Oleh Kovalchuke
> https://TangoSpring.com
>
>
>
> On 8/11/05, v0orbuwg1l <gr1ndm1t0u@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To be fair, I was waiting for you...;->
> >
> > On 8/11/05, Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > In stead of seeing, I rather feel her puting the
> > > aforementioned body parts (and some other) on me,
> > > in a close-embrace dance,
> > > with my eyes closed (most of the time anyway). ;-)
> >
> > This explains rather graphically why you cannot move away from her and
> > open - for all to see...
> > My dear chap, you are already on to the main meal, while in
> > open-embrace one does not have the problem you have, one eats both the
> > appetizers and the desserts, then go home for the main
> > celebration...with encores...
> >
DU.
> >
>
>
> --
>
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:58:36 -0700
From: Trini de PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Hee Hee. As long as you can please the lady, does it
really matter?
Happy tangos,
Trini
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> Trini wrote:
> Susana Miller: "If you want to be great dancer,
> then
> specialize in one style of dance. If one tries to be
> equally good in all of the styles, then one will
> only
> end up being mediocre in any style".
>
> I do not need to be a great dancer, but I want to be
> a good one at all
> styles of tango.
> Do I have any hope, or I just bound to be mediocre?
>
> Igor Polk
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:46:52 -0500
From: el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
In my opinion, Steve summarized perfectly what is the problem, and how
we can solve it, along with other postings. This topic comes and goes
in a fluctuation on this list, sometime good to read and learn how
other people see, sometimes it's so sad for me to realize that how
some people don't get the point.
I've completed my 2nd trip to Buenos Aires last week, and I observed
people, talked to them, and exchange the ideas they have. I took
classes, attended practicas, and milongas everyday and every night.
This time i spend almost a month in BsAs, and had chance to see this
magical city with less number of foreigners.
Here is my 2nd BsAs report in the light of some of my observations and
discussions with other local hardcore tango dancers in BsAs.
I don't like to classify things but this would help me explain myself;
- first of all, Tango as "styles point of view" is NOT so diverged as in US.
Regulars of certain milongas tend to have similar styles, they never
go to other milongas. at Salon Canning on every Monday night you see
same people, if you go to el beso on Saturday or Club Espanol on
Thursday afternoons you will same different crowd than La Viruta or La
Marshall regulars. Most of the milonguero(a)s who never taken classes
but learned by heart, never go to the practica. However, in US or in
Europe most of the dancers go to the practicas (I'm hoping of course)
I know this is a big issue for many tango communites, women are into
milongas but men are into practicas more than milongas.
What I'm trying to say is you can pretend like a milonguero(a), and
mimic old Argentine folks, but this is not a sustainable tango for
yourself and any tango community on the planet since outside Buenos
Aires, there is no Tango culture roots spread.
- There is NO cross talk between young dancers and old dancers in
Buenos Aires. Of course I'm not talking about the dances between old
Argentine folks and young female tourists. Young (18-45) dancers are
going to practicas more than milongas, since most of them are not
retired, mostly in the school, or working 8-5 weekdays or so for old
tango dance dancer it's much easier to go to the milongas.
What do you think which category you fit in?
In US, we have this cross talk efficiently, everybody dances with
everybody, there are no inner circles, therefore, styles are being mix
up much more than BsAs milongas.
(Holy triplet: Naveira-Salas-Frumboli)
- Since there is not much of cross talk in BsAs tango scenes, visible
styles are less diverged. (Tango De Salon, Apilado) For instance, the
most known concepts, Gustavo Naveira concepts are mostly applied and
accepted by Professional tango dancers (a.k.a. bailarines) and of
course Tourists not by social dancers(maybe few).
Fabian Salas does not teach on regular basis in BsAs. So, any average
tango dancer in North America or in Europe would have more ideas about
Fabian Salas's concepts than any Argentines in BsAs.
This issue is the same with Chicho, actually more drastic. Since, he
only teaches intensively and regular basis in Europe, North Americans
have not so much and clear idea about his concepts yet.
Does anyone dance (not teach) Nuevo style in BsAs?
(this question is the most shocking one for me.)
Surprisingly, You can find more nuevo dancers in Seattle or in
Paris. I met only one handful tango dancers (3-4) in Buenos Aires
that's all. Buenos Aires tango dancers (I'm talking about normal tango
dancers like us who takes classes, still in the learning process) tend
to follow two main paths. The first, Forever Tango style (not only
dance style but also tango outfits). They are still chasing after SHOW
Tango not that much social tango concept. (ca. %80)
The Second, Nostalgic Tango A.K.A. "estilo milonguero". (ca. %20)
- I've found that Tango Nuevo as style (or sub style) is growing
OUTSIDE BsAs unexpectedly. Most of the Nuevo teachers/dancers are
located in Europe, and they teach their concepts to Europeans more
intensively than to Argentine folks.
-I strongly believe that Nuevo style will grow much faster than we
thought. Since it's not coming from Buenos Aires like Apilado, to
reach the source of learning won't be expensive as much as Nostalgic
Tango. Of course in this case Nuevo teachers would have more
responsibilities to keep the Tango Argentino essence in their teaching
and spread among their students and friends.
- I believe that quality close embrace tango in North America and in
BsAs will be differentiated more clearly in near future.
- I've also found that some countries have massive orientation to
particular style. For Instance, dancers from US mostly take close
embrace classes in BsAs more than any other countries (England,
Netherlands after US).
Dancers from Japan, Turkey, Greece, Russia, Germany, France, or any
other South or Central American countries mostly take tango de salon
classes.
Hopefully there will be some kind of cross talk between different
countries on Tango, when people attend the tango festivals around the
globe.
Have a great day,
burak"el turco" ozkosem
Minneapolis,MN
www.tangoshusheta.com
Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 02:02:34 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles
I allow myself a little speculation about the word "salon" and salon style.
This is just a logical exercise. Fiction.
What is a salon. Salon is a large gorgeous hall with polished floors and
cristal chandeliers located somewhere which 100 years ago can be easily
called "a palace". Upper class people visited the salon. They played cards,
drunk some cognac or campaign, talk politics, prices of grain in Europe, and
marriages of their daughters. And they danced tango. Sure they did. But
special tango. During the dance the look of dancers supposed to highlight
their position of power. Close embrace would be unthinkable there. An it
was. At least in a crowd. Tender shoes, long dress, diamonds, tails. They
danced "salon style tango".
Less prominent people had their salons too. Smaller salons in smaller
apartments. Merchants, bureaucrats, academics, landlords. They wanted to be
as good as those above them. They danced salon too. But occasionally, a
friend came to a family and said "You know what, ..
.. most people are dancing tango on streets. On stones, dirt, and worn
floors. And in whore houses too. They wear boots. And they drink gallons of
cheap wine. They dance close hugging each other - "canyengue". Or open doing
crazy moves to impress their girls, friends, and rivals - "orillero".
..Boy, I have seen such thrilling moves! Let me show you how it works."
Society developed. Productivity went up. More people wanted to enter the
upper class. At least now they could impersonate it. So cloth became
better - suits and so on.. Dancing parties with large orchestras. Their
dancing became more refine, but they did not forget the greatness of close
embrace. "Apilado" was born, a marriage of salons and the street, patricians
and plebs - a truly confiteria style.
I always smile when I see these words together: "salon" and "close embrace".
I am from a canyengue neighbourhood.
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:35:38 -0700
From: Trini de PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles
Hello Burak,
I found your post quite interesting. I am curious
about the 80 show/20 nostalgia split that you mention,
which seems to counter to Tom's recent email about his
experience of 95% milonguero. Was this in the classes
or at milongas?
I also agree that Stephen Brown's post was a nice
summary of the teaching/dancing issues that have
occurred in the States.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- el turco <shusheta@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Does anyone dance (not teach) Nuevo style in BsAs?
> (this question is the most shocking one for me.)
> Buenos Aires tango dancers (I'm talking
> about normal tango dancers like us who takes
classes, still in the learning process) tend
> to follow two main paths. The first, Forever Tango
> style (not only dance style but also tango outfits).
They are still chasing after SHOW
> Tango not that much social tango concept. (ca. %80)
> The Second, Nostalgic Tango A.K.A. "estilo
> milonguero". (ca. %20)
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:47:35 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Stephen Brown wrote:
> But most local teachers are likely to teach the way
> that they themselves
> learned. Because they were able to find their way
> into tango with the
> instruction they received, they don't understand
> that others may be unable
> to follow the same path to mastery.
I have resigned myself to the prolonged discussion
about styles, during which the same people repeat
themselves endlessly (and one person in particular
keeps telling us he agrees with someone). But I am
interested in this issue that Stephen raises, about
how local teachers (or anyone else for that matter)
teach. I have taken classes with a series of "local"
teachers over the last five years, and with a dozen or
two bigger name visiting instructors. I teach as part
of my job, and I have actually worked on learning to
teach. I feel pretty confident in saying that the
only really good tango teacher I have ever come in
contact with was Eric Jeurissen. There are other
instructors I think are good dancers or interesting
speakers or nice people or whatever - Jeurissen is
just the only one I count as a first class teacher.
Now, no doubt there are others; I just haven't taken a
class with them. So, my question is, what have people
done to learn to teach, when they have moved from
taking lessons to giving them? Have any of you who
teach made any particular attempt to improve your
ability to instruct? Have you made changes to your
teaching style to improve the results? Have you taken
a class with someone you thought was a very good
teacher - and what did you admire abut their
technique?
I'll start with Jeurissen: in the classes I had with
him, he was responsive to the level of dance of the
people in the group and adapted his lesson to match
it. He used a standard pedagogical technique and
presented many topics in more than one format: he
explained a brief group of steps, taught a way to
count it, danced it in demonstration, and/or taught a
mnemonic for the rhythm. He then responded to what
different students did individually, trying a series
of techniques until he found which worked for each
one. I saw him lead, follow, lead the leader of a
dancing couple, teach silly rhymes to help remember a
rhythm, and count out in both numbers and by saying
bom-de-bom-bom (or whatever the rhtyhm was). He was
incredible.
What else can people do to improve their ability to
teach?
Marisa
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:41:11 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Hi
I am learning to teach. I teach beginners and pre-intermediate classes to our college and grad students for free. After teaching a bootcamp series (4 consecutive Sundays, 2 hours each), I condcted a survey to inquire about pace, clarity, method, and any suggestions. I try to incorporate the suggestions. I also attend any and all beginners classes with professionals that I can. My own classes are a composite of my own finds and things I've seen various professionals do. Overall I strive to minimize the talking and maximize the dancing, where dancers get to try something out before I bombard them with details.
I thought Luciana Valle and Alex Krebs were great teachers.
BTW I have done a good amount of TAing biology to undergrads and grads and I found that it's important to engage people or they'll space out. I try to be funny and entertaining so they'll listen to my explanations and read my emails.
I am fortunate that the kids who take my tango classes are trained daily to absorb, apply and recall large amounts of complex information and they will immediately understand and remember things like a 270 degree pivot without even thinking about it. They understand the physics of inertia, momentum, balance, center of gravity, center of rotation, centrifugal force, deceleration, etc. So I can be precise and concise and unambiguous in my explanations, and everybody is on the same page. I also don't have to repeat things all the time. This makes my job a lot easier and very rewarding.
Tine
www.yaletangoclub.org
Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Stephen Brown wrote:
> But most local teachers are likely to teach the way
> that they themselves
> learned. Because they were able to find their way
> into tango with the
> instruction they received, they don't understand
> that others may be unable
> to follow the same path to mastery.
I have resigned myself to the prolonged discussion
about styles, during which the same people repeat
themselves endlessly (and one person in particular
keeps telling us he agrees with someone). But I am
interested in this issue that Stephen raises, about
how local teachers (or anyone else for that matter)
teach. I have taken classes with a series of "local"
teachers over the last five years, and with a dozen or
two bigger name visiting instructors. I teach as part
of my job, and I have actually worked on learning to
teach. I feel pretty confident in saying that the
only really good tango teacher I have ever come in
contact with was Eric Jeurissen. There are other
instructors I think are good dancers or interesting
speakers or nice people or whatever - Jeurissen is
just the only one I count as a first class teacher.
Now, no doubt there are others; I just haven't taken a
class with them. So, my question is, what have people
done to learn to teach, when they have moved from
taking lessons to giving them? Have any of you who
teach made any particular attempt to improve your
ability to instruct? Have you made changes to your
teaching style to improve the results? Have you taken
a class with someone you thought was a very good
teacher - and what did you admire abut their
technique?
I'll start with Jeurissen: in the classes I had with
him, he was responsive to the level of dance of the
people in the group and adapted his lesson to match
it. He used a standard pedagogical technique and
presented many topics in more than one format: he
explained a brief group of steps, taught a way to
count it, danced it in demonstration, and/or taught a
mnemonic for the rhythm. He then responded to what
different students did individually, trying a series
of techniques until he found which worked for each
one. I saw him lead, follow, lead the leader of a
dancing couple, teach silly rhymes to help remember a
rhythm, and count out in both numbers and by saying
bom-de-bom-bom (or whatever the rhtyhm was). He was
incredible.
What else can people do to improve their ability to
teach?
Marisa
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
To subscribe to our event emails, please email us or visit our website.
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Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:06:30 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Marisa asked:
"…So, my question is, what have people
done to learn to teach, when they have moved from
taking lessons to giving them? Have any of you who
teach made any particular attempt to improve your
ability to instruct? Have you made changes to your
teaching style to improve the results? Have you taken
a class with someone you thought was a very good
teacher - and what did you admire abut their
technique?"
I will take a shot at this as teaching style has been the source of great
frustration and equally of great satisfaction for. For me, several years of
frustrations were a way of life as I tried to learn to dance, basically swing,
Latin and ballroom. It was a chore. I was introduced to Argentine Tango by
chance, after my wife encouraged me to take American Smooth Tango private lessons.
The instructor I had actually worked me through the trials and tribulations
of learning Ballroom Tango. She did indicate that her preference was for
Argentine Tango. I asked her on my last lesson to show me what the difference was.
She did and the rest is history. I was hooked.
As way of background, I have taught downhill skiing for 15 years and I judge
a good teacher from many of the teaching clinics I have taken over the years
and the experience of teaching. What I found was that know the subject matter
whether it is skiing or dancing, is only part of the equation, equally
important is how you convey that subject matter. Is it a passion or a job? I have
found those who teach with a passion connect with their clientele much better.
The other part and possibly the overriding characteristic is "It is all about
you" that is important. The Student, who believes the teacher is focused on
them and is trying to maximize their enjoyment, will come back for more lessons
(economics is key). I found I got the best results from teaching a group of 8
for two hours was when I learned that I had the ability to simultaneously
deliver 8 private lessons during that two hours. It was an awesome feeling to see
your customers' faces light up and their skills improve.
That is the communications angle, we all have different learning styles, some
of us hear, some of us see, some of us feel and we all probably use each at
very degrees. So a teacher that can see that in a student and adapt their
teaching technique to the individual ends up making a difference.
I think with some of the complaints about certain teachers I have seen on
this list, that is the problem. Teaching and learning styles don't match. Each
turns the other off, and usually it the student that turns off first.
For me Greg and Sara Thomsen have given this to me. No matter, how bad I
screw up a move, they try to help from the point of view of what I did not what I
should have done. Both have a passion for the dance that they always convey
and it is always about us, the student, despite the level we might be at.
Never is there a negative it is always about encouragement. With that said,
there are numerous other great teachers here, some I have taken lessons from and
others I haven't, but none can convey the passion, knowledge, compatible
teaching/learning style that allows me to grow with each lesson. Can I learn from
the others, certainly I try to be open also, but I could not over a long period
of time.
I think this is the style and attitude you describe in Eric Jeurissen
Again just some thoughts,
Bill
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 14:38:43 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Marisa wrote:
>What else can people do to improve their ability to
teach?<
-To be prepared to describe what the meaning of tango essence is to their
students.
-To explain what the true technique of the tango dance is and not those from
other dances or dancers promoting their own as part of tango.
Bruno
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:31:02 -0600
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <tangospring@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Marisa Holmes has asked:
"So, my question is, what have people done to learn to teach, when
they have moved from taking lessons to giving them? Have any of you
who teach made any particular attempt to improve your ability to
instruct? Have you made changes to your teaching style to improve the
results? Have you taken a class with someone you thought was a very
good teacher - and what did you admire abut their technique? ... What
else can people do to improve their ability to teach?"
What a great line of questions.
Well, when I started I have learned from a great local open frame
instructor in Colorado, Scott McClain. Great not because of his
approach to teaching - I actually have struggled for four months
through some rather arcane patterns to Di Sarli before discovering a
different approach and moving on, but because of his passion for the
dance and great advanced open frame classes, which I have rejoined
while trying to do everything in close embrace.
The big breakthrough for me was taking a workshop with Brigitta
Winkler at one of Denver festivals. Suddenly learning patterns was not
required, the steps were simple, simply combined or recombined, and
the emphasis was on communication of lead and follow. Unusual for me
at the time and a lot of fun.
I did not like to learn via patterns so when I started to think about
teaching I did not have a system to pick and use to take people from
complete beginners to advanced dancers. One workshop does not a system
make. I had to spend about three months inventing my own method
deconstructing the way I dance and developing the curriculum (you can
find the high level outline here: https://TangoSpring.com - Warning! It
is the "hidden internet marketing" people keep referring to lately. Do
not click! Do not click!) writing each lesson in 5 minute long
digestible and progressive intervals, selecting the music etc. before
the first lesson.
As a result some of the approaches and progressions are borrowed from
Brigitta (in the first beginner class), some are my own yet always
logical. For instance I do not employ practice frame since developing
leader-follower communication via chest connection from the very
beginning is very important to me. All step progressions are fairly
small to let students to literally feel the difference in
communication in their body. Very important to emphasize rhythm of the
steps and to do all exercises with the music from the very beginning
(doing demo quick-quick-slow counts and some clapping in the beginning
helps too). This way musicality does not become a big issue and
naturally absorbed as classes progress.
I did have to refine the posted curriculum though to slow down the
progress a bit, to introduce a review lesson (people didn't come to
practica), since even though I did let a bit of a slack into the
lessons they still progressed a bit too quickly for some uninitiated
beginners. Tine is right however, when I taught a series of workshops
to students at Colorado College the progress was quicker and
curriculum held in its present form. I have refined the material I
teach once more after returning from Buenos Aires since my style and
appreciation of the dance have changed significantly after the visits.
Reading, thinking and writing to this list helped a bit too.
--
Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:50:33 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
I am not sure that it is at all possible to directly teach the inner
essences of tango. A good pedagogy based on developing a thorough command
of the mechanics of tango movement can support the development of
connection, musicality, improvisation and learning other inner essences of
tango, but the pedagogy only takes the students to the door. The students
must step through the door on their own if they are to become dancers who
fully understand and appreciate how inner essences contribute to tango
dancing.
Teachers can suggest tango has a deeper meaning, but when teachers use
extensive class time to explain their own understanding of an inner
essence, they are likely to be wasting their own efforts and their
students' time. When it comes to movement, knowledge cannot be poured in
a student's ear. Dancers must earn their skills through their own
experience of movement.
With best regards,
Steve
"The tango is discovered little by little, and it chooses you. When it
does, it gives you a glimpse but it remains, as it has forever, surrounded
by a halo of impregnable mystery."
-- Anibal Troilo
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 00:34:47 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Dear Stephen,
> Teachers can suggest tango has a deeper meaning, but when
> teachers use extensive class time to explain their own
> understanding of an inner essence, they are likely to be
> wasting their own efforts and their students' time. When it
> comes to movement, knowledge cannot be poured in a student's
> ear. Dancers must earn their skills through their own
> experience of movement.
I must say this is only true in part. Yes, It is unnecessary to explain your
own philosophy of tango - sure it is going to be different for everyone
else. Personally, I don't have a philosophy. Never had. I don't even know
what it is to have one. I simply attached to the dance (I definitely don't
want to quote the slightly theatrical "tango chose me" line).
IMHO Students can develop a magnitude faster if you deliver the right words
into their ears. I use a lot of metaphors to describe the operation of a
movement and I do talk relatively much. However, it delivers results. The
teacher I was learning tango from when I started was (and still is) a
choreography addict. Even what he calls teaching of technique is really a
set of movements to be copied with meticulous precision - and many of his
students are suprised when a small explanation puts their fruitless hours of
"experiencing the results" right by eg. defining what's cause and what's
effect, which are the key tools to the movement which are just
embelishments, style etc.
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:55:22 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Aron wrote:
>Even what he calls teaching of technique is really a
>set of movements to be copied with meticulous precision - and many of his
>students are suprised when a small explanation puts their fruitless hours
of
>"experiencing the results" right by eg. defining what's cause and what's
>effect, which are the key tools to the movement which are just
>embelishments, style etc.
I am neither advocating that the instructor teach step patterns nor that
the instructor say nothing. What I am advocating is that instruction be
largely in the mechanics of dancing. Explanations should primarily be
directed toward improving dancing skills rather than toward developing a
philosophical understanding of tango.
Those who want the philosophy can read Tango-L or Kiss and Tango. ;-)
With best regards,
Steve
"Maybe you can live with your conscience, but can you dance with it?"
-- James Stone
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:13:38 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
I agree that Eric Jorissen is extremely good. I've watched him take
an entire classroom of mixed levels up a whole notch. No beginner was
lost, and all advanced dancers were challenged.
Brigtta Winkler is the only other teacher I put in the same class
with him.
They both have been teaching since the early 1980s (before the tango
revival in Buenos Aires).
An American challenger is Hsueh-tze Lee.
Any intermediate tango dance can show a step. Any show dancer can
choreograph a difficult figure and impress a class.
The big difference is that these teachers have a well thought-out
pedagogy of instruction. They have an awareness of multiple learning
styles, different languages for multiple understandings.
Also, they are aware of how tango techniques are layered: Details on
top of fundamentals.
On Aug 24, 2005, at 12:47 PM, Marisa Holmes wrote:
> ...teach. I feel pretty confident in saying that the
> only really good tango teacher I have ever come in
> contact with was Eric Jeurissen. There are other
> instructors I think are good dancers or interesting
> speakers or nice people or whatever - Jeurissen is
> just the only one I count as a first class teacher.
> ...
> I'll start with Jeurissen: in the classes I had with
> him, he was responsive to the level of dance of the
> people in the group and adapted his lesson to match
> it. He used a standard pedagogical technique and
> presented many topics in more than one format: he
> explained a brief group of steps, taught a way to
> count it, danced it in demonstration, and/or taught a
> mnemonic for the rhythm. He then responded to what
> different students did individually, trying a series
> of techniques until he found which worked for each
> one. I saw him lead, follow, lead the leader of a
> dancing couple, teach silly rhymes to help remember a
> rhythm, and count out in both numbers and by saying
> bom-de-bom-bom (or whatever the rhtyhm was). He was
> incredible.
>
> What else can people do to improve their ability to
> teach?
>
> Marisa
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:33:32 -0600
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning to teach Was: On Style and Styles
Without dancing around the issues too much:
To me the essence in tango is the embrace. What a couple feels or reacts to
the embrace is besides the dance. We can use tango for our own purposes, but
I think this is not the dance.
The true technique of tango among many other details is that the man and the
woman must know how to stand up well on the dance floor, and for the man to
know how to move with the woman as a couple.
Bruno
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:52:57 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and Learning instead of Teaching
Dear Bruno and All:
It always amazes me how many people on the Tango-L
mailing list want to be paid "so-called" professional
teachers of Argentine tango, instead of unpaid
students of Argentine Tango. It seems to me that
their ignorance of the culture of the country, which
originated the first experience of tango is directly
proportional to their desire to teach others the same
ignorance.
For starters, I would recommend that they go live in
the Argentine culture for about 6 months and maybe
even learn Argentine Spanish, like Sean is learning
from Daniel Lapadula, when he asked me how to say
"brown nose" in Argentine Spanish and was answered in
the Argentine Spanish language of tango, Lumfardo.
Maybe that would be a good start, before one becomes a
paid professional teacher of Argentine Tango.
Also, Argentine Tango is not just steps, so just being
a dance teacher, is not enough knowledge for Argentine
Tango. It is enough knowledge for maybe an US
Americanized form of Tango, but that is all. If these
US American teachers want to tango, maybe it is best
for them to call it, what it is, US American Tango,
not Argentine Tango, because that it what is usually
looks like on the dance floors of the US. The feeling
is totally different, not bad, just different...more
US American. My opinion.
PS- One does not have to be Argentine to teach
Argentine Tango, but one does have to know the culture
well. I think that this is what Bruno is trying to
say to you guys in a nice way, which is probably over
your heads....lol.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 Cell
--- Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET> wrote:
> Without dancing around the issues too much:
>
> To me the essence in tango is the embrace. What a
> couple feels or reacts to
> the embrace is besides the dance. We can use tango
> for our own purposes, but
> I think this is not the dance.
>
> The true technique of tango among many other details
> is that the man and the
> woman must know how to stand up well on the dance
> floor, and for the man to
> know how to move with the woman as a couple.
>
>
>
> Bruno
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:50:56 -0600
From: Chas Gale <hotchango@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and Learning instead of Teaching
----Derik Rawson wrote in part:
"""One does not have to be Argentine to teach
Argentine Tango, but one does have to know the culture
well. I think that this is what Bruno is trying to
say to you guys in a nice way, which is probably over
your heads....lol."""
You are absolutely right, Derik. We "US Americans" respond much better
to sanctimonious brow-beating from Texans spouting ludicrous positions.
It never ceases to amaze me that the favorite pass time of so many
Americans is bashing America and Americans. I guess this is the good
news as well. After all, who better to bash America than Americans?
We are reminded almost daily that tango is peculiar to Argentine
culture, no, wait, actually it is the product specifically of Buenos
Aires, well, except for those who insist that the tango is as much a
product of Montevideo... Well, unless you consider the heavy influence
of Italy, Germany, Africa and Cuba.... OK, it's all clear to me now:
close embrace tango dancers are the only ones who get "it", while open
embrace tango dancers pee on the sidewalk and eat their young. No, wait,
I'm certain open embrace tango dancers are truest to the tango ideal,
and close embrace tango dancers pick their nose and voted for George W,
another exemplary example of Texans showing the rest of we
knuckle-dragging, slop-headed, US American dolts the true path.
Note to Argentine jazz musicians: Please learn to speak US American
English, drink poorly brewed beer and eat Rocky Mountain Oysters. Only
then will your art be worthy.
Speaking of The Rocky Mountains, (stealth marketing warning) Derik,
please come to Denver next week for the 6th Annual Labor Day Tango
Festival. See what a bunch of US American imbeciles (quite by accident
I'm sure) can product. Denver has not one but two of the best tango
venues on the globe. The Tango House and The Mercury Café are, without
exception identified by Argentines as "just like milongas in Buenos
Aires". And do please attend (more stealth marketing ahead) my Advanced
Milonga figures workshop that precedes The Tango House milongas on 9/1
and 9/5. I'll be conducting the lessons in US American English because,
well, we are in US America and only a handful of the 1000+ Argentine
expatriates living in Denver, tango. (not the least bit stealthy
marketing ahead) Please see The Tango House web site for other great
choices during next weeks Denver Tango Festival.
Note to Oleh: Please forgive me for responding to Derik. I don't know
why people do it either but I'm just a po' dumb US American: pity me.
And I hope you will still DJ at my (still more stealth marketing)
practica next Wednesday, 8/31 after the Advanced Vals lesson here at The
Tango House.
Note to potential parents in Texas: If you have babies, be sure to name
them after apparatus found in oil fields.
Chas "Apologies to any Texans injured in the writing of this e-mail."
Gale
https://www.thetangohouse.com
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:34:49 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and Learning instead of Teaching
> Note to Argentine jazz musicians: Please learn to speak US American
> English, drink poorly brewed beer and eat Rocky Mountain Oysters. Only
> then will your art be worthy.
When I read Derik's post earlier, I just shook my head, laughed a little,
and deleted it. I did not want to such a stupid idea any more energy. But, I
loved the response above.. it the most perfect response I can imagine.
I have heard this argument about the culture of tango and find it
ridiculous. Within Tango, there is the dance, the poetry, the music, the
art. The culture of tango is whatever we as tango dancers say it is. It is
going to be different in different places. The culture of tango in BA is one
culture. The culture of tango in Paris is another culture. Culture is
something that is very hard to define. To say that there is one true tango
culture is too limiting.
What is Argentine tango? This reminds me of the US Congressional Hearings on
pornography many years ago. Someone asked one of the Senators, what is
pornography? His answer was, I know it when I see it. Well.. that was the
problem.. what one person sees as pornography may not be what another person
sees. Robert Mapplethorpe would be a perfect example. One person might look
at him and see pornography and another person might see art.
That would be my answer about Argentine Tango, I know it when I see it. Some
people can limit it if they want, they are free to do so, but don't keep
trying to push such a narrow definition onto everyone else.
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
https://www.tangoevolution.com
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:31:08 -0700
From: Sean de PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: On Style and Styles and Leanin instead of Teachin
I know this list is to be reserved for serious tango
discussions. Si estoy meando fuera del tarro me
perdonarma, por favor. (I hope I havent trashed the
tenses too badly and embarrassed Daniel, now that he
has been exposed as mi teacher del lunfardo.)
I almost agree with Clint that Chas made "...the most
perfect response I can imagine..." But I do have one
nit to pick.
I dont have any scientific evidence for the following
observations, and I can even think of a few contrary
anecdotes. But for the most part, it seems that close
embrace dancers are located on both coasts, and in
larger cities in between (the "blue" states); whereas
the mid-west and deep-south (the "red" states) tend to
be the homes of open embrace dancers. Likewise, if
Slick Willy danced tango, we all know he'd be jammin'
in a saxy close embrace. But Junior Bush would have to
dance open. He could never make the contra body motion
necessary in close embrace with that stick up his
a(um, never mind)s.
Given the alleged North American penchant for
pointless labels, Ive taken to calling open embrace
"Republican Tango", and close embrace "Democrat
Tango". "Red Tango" and "Blue Tango" work as well, as
do "Christian Tango" and "Dionysian Tango".
The nit: Given the above, I think Chas has it
backwards when he observes that "close embrace tango
dancers pick their nose and voted for George W,"
(:
Sean
:)
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:17:29 -0400
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and Learning instead of Teaching
Michael, Thanks for the correction.
All the best,
Clint
clint@tangoevolution.com
https://www.tangoevolution.com
> Sorry, Clint. It wasn't a congressional hearing but a famous
> Supreme Court decision, JACOBELLIS v. OHIO, 378 U.S. 184
> (1964) The Supreme Court had a "movie day" where they
> screened films that authorities claimed were pornographic.
> The judges had to come up with a standard. Below is Justice
> Potter Stewart's decision.
>
> MR. JUSTICE STEWART, concurring.
>
> It is possible to read the Court's opinion in Roth v. United
> States and Alberts v. California, 354 U.S. 476 , in a
> variety of ways. In saying this, I imply no criticism of the
> Court, which in those cases was faced with the task of
> trying to define what may be indefinable. I shall not today
> attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand
> to be embraced within that shorthand description; and
> perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But
> I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in
> this case is not that
>
> Michael Ditkoff
>
>
>
>
> Clint wrote
> > What is Argentine tango? This reminds me of the US >
> Congressional Hearings on pornography many years ago. >
> Someone asked one of the Senators, what is pornography? >
> His answer was, I know it when I see it. >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Clint
> > clint@tangoevolution.com
>
>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:03:49 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and Learning instead of Teaching
Here is the proof that this list can be real fun at times... :))
Sean - by the way - take care: blue tango as a label is contradictory! As
there is one under this name in Boston! :)))
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
"Follow those who seek the truth.
Run from those who claim to have found it."
"There is more than one way to cook an omlette."
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Chas Gale
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 8:51 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] On Style and Styles and Learning
> instead of Teaching
>
> ----Derik Rawson wrote in part:
> """One does not have to be Argentine to teach Argentine
> Tango, but one does have to know the culture well. I think
> that this is what Bruno is trying to say to you guys in a
> nice way, which is probably over your heads....lol."""
>
> You are absolutely right, Derik. We "US Americans" respond
> much better to sanctimonious brow-beating from Texans
> spouting ludicrous positions.
> It never ceases to amaze me that the favorite pass time of so
> many Americans is bashing America and Americans. I guess this
> is the good news as well. After all, who better to bash
> America than Americans?
>
> We are reminded almost daily that tango is peculiar to
> Argentine culture, no, wait, actually it is the product
> specifically of Buenos Aires, well, except for those who
> insist that the tango is as much a product of Montevideo...
> Well, unless you consider the heavy influence of Italy,
> Germany, Africa and Cuba.... OK, it's all clear to me now:
> close embrace tango dancers are the only ones who get "it",
> while open embrace tango dancers pee on the sidewalk and eat
> their young. No, wait, I'm certain open embrace tango dancers
> are truest to the tango ideal, and close embrace tango
> dancers pick their nose and voted for George W, another
> exemplary example of Texans showing the rest of we
> knuckle-dragging, slop-headed, US American dolts the true path.
>
> Note to Argentine jazz musicians: Please learn to speak US
> American English, drink poorly brewed beer and eat Rocky
> Mountain Oysters. Only then will your art be worthy.
>
> Speaking of The Rocky Mountains, (stealth marketing warning)
> Derik, please come to Denver next week for the 6th Annual
> Labor Day Tango Festival. See what a bunch of US American
> imbeciles (quite by accident I'm sure) can product. Denver
> has not one but two of the best tango venues on the globe.
> The Tango House and The Mercury Café are, without exception
> identified by Argentines as "just like milongas in Buenos
> Aires". And do please attend (more stealth marketing ahead)
> my Advanced Milonga figures workshop that precedes The Tango
> House milongas on 9/1 and 9/5. I'll be conducting the lessons
> in US American English because, well, we are in US America
> and only a handful of the 1000+ Argentine expatriates living
> in Denver, tango. (not the least bit stealthy marketing
> ahead) Please see The Tango House web site for other great
> choices during next weeks Denver Tango Festival.
>
> Note to Oleh: Please forgive me for responding to Derik. I
> don't know why people do it either but I'm just a po' dumb US
> American: pity me.
> And I hope you will still DJ at my (still more stealth
> marketing) practica next Wednesday, 8/31 after the Advanced
> Vals lesson here at The Tango House.
>
> Note to potential parents in Texas: If you have babies, be
> sure to name them after apparatus found in oil fields.
>
> Chas "Apologies to any Texans injured in the writing of this e-mail."
> Gale
> https://www.thetangohouse.com
>
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:52:39 -0500
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: On Style and Styles and Learning instead of Teaching
Sorry, Clint. It wasn't a congressional hearing but a famous
Supreme Court decision, JACOBELLIS v. OHIO, 378 U.S. 184
(1964) The Supreme Court had a "movie day" where they
screened films that authorities claimed were pornographic.
The judges had to come up with a standard. Below is Justice
Potter Stewart's decision.
MR. JUSTICE STEWART, concurring.
It is possible to read the Court's opinion in Roth v. United
States and Alberts v. California, 354 U.S. 476 , in a
variety of ways. In saying this, I imply no criticism of the
Court, which in those cases was faced with the task of
trying to define what may be indefinable. I shall not today
attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand
to be embraced within that shorthand description; and
perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But
I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in
this case is not that
Michael Ditkoff
Clint wrote
> What is Argentine tango? This reminds me of the US >
Congressional Hearings on pornography many years ago. >
Someone asked one of the Senators, what is pornography? >
His answer was, I know it when I see it. >
> All the best,
>
> Clint
> clint@tangoevolution.com
