2720  the styles discussion

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 15:39:19 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: the styles discussion

I noticed since my childhood as I was growing in Buenos Aires that people
danced tango in different ways. We considered that most people had his or
her particular style of dancing. We called milonguero somebody that was all
the time at the milongas. The only distinction of styles at the time (at
least for us) was "salon" danced socially and stage danced at the theater.

It was in the early 90s. that I came across an article on the newspaper
Clarin of Buenos Aires in which there was a description of three prevalent
styles of tango being danced at the time.
They had a description and a corresponding name accompanied by the names of
someinstructors of each style. They were Salon, Milonguero and Nuevo Tango.
I wrote a note in Tango-L reporting this fact. The names were accepted in
North America but a lot of confusion with respect to what they meant
persisted all along these years.

I attempted to clarify the meaning of those terms on many opportunities to
crash against a wall of misunderstanding, defensiveness, and aggression of
all sorts that would cause me to shrug my shoulders and give up with the
thought that was best to let those people die in total ignorance of their
own ignorance. :)

The reasons of such irrational reactions originated in the fact that
although everybody was happy to know that the style they danced had some
advantages over the others nobody wanted to accept that "their" style could
have some limitations. Further more the instructors cultivating a certain
style were afraid they would start losing students that knowing the
advantages of another style might stampede to learn something else. :)). So
they would gang together in an effort to silence this uncomfortable subject
again and again.

I am glad I was perseverant for this is the first time I could get the
subject to be understood at least by some people.

Oleh says :

"Sergio Vandekier defined the walk in milonguero and salon styles and then
wrote:

"Summary: many dancers of milonguero style dance in a different way than the
one by me described before. I find irrelevant to mention the differences
existing among "milonguero style" teachers at this time."

From what is written above it follows that the definition of the style might
fall apart hence the convenient irrelevance.
and
"It will be very unlikely that you will have interest or ability to dance in
any other style."

I agree with possible lack of interest but where does the lack of ability
come from?

Cheers, Oleh K. "

My answer to these comments is as follows: I described the milonguero
dancing style as taught by Susana Miller. I mentioned that the main
instructors of this style dance differently one form the other. Susana
dances differently than Cacho Dante and both of them dance differently than
Tete does (just to give an example). ***The definition of the style does
not fall apart at all, Milonguero is a well defined style that like most
tango styles has multiple variations. The irrelevance of the discussion of
these details comes from the fact that when one is discussing the
characteristics of the mother " dancing styles", subject that is barely
understood by a great group of dancers it seems to me, superfluous to
discuss differences within the same style.

With respect to "It will be very unlikely that you will have interest or
ability to dance in any other style." my explanation is that close embrace,
be it salon or milonguero have a "different" technique from dancing in open
embrace.
If your initial instruction is "only" in close embrace, (IMO) most people
will be set to dance in that form for the rest of their lives. I have
discussed this subjects with many old time dancers and instructors and they
seem to agree. This happens because there is lack of interest in learning
other styles that they do not practice, styles that have a more complicated
and difficult to learn technique.
This does not mean that if anyone has the purpose to learn open style he
would be totally unable, not at all, is that there will be no incentive to
make the effort of the transition.
The same happens with Nuevo Tango dancers, they use a totally different
technique, once they are set to dance that way, they have little incentive
to learn other styles.

When you learn Salon Open and close embrace as your initial style, on the
other hand this gives you a solid base from where you can learn any other
style if you have the interest and put some dedication and effort. Most of
the dancers of multiple styles like myself learnt Salon first.

Summary: this is my opinion based in my own experience. It is only natural
to accept that every style, like everything else in life has pros and cons.
...will continue.

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:36:53 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: the styles discussion

Since I am tired of this routine of stupid remarks and useless attacks I am
going to call things by their name once and then ignore any further
gratuitous attack and name calling.

In the case of Michael Figart once more he proceeds to repeat everything
that I have said at this time or before with the pretension of making some
important corrections.

I do not know if he does not understand what he reads or he pretends not to
understand. I get the impression that certain people are stimulating him to
do what they have not courage to do personally, putting him in a ridiculous
situation.

Not "brushing" heels, this is the way Susana Miller dances, the form
discussed by Michael is the way Cacho Dante and other milongueros dance.
"Brushing" is a relative term used by most Americans to mean that the heels
pass very close to each other when walking.

"flat footed is the way Susana Miller walks" I should know for she corrected
my way of walking (pure Salon Style)herself in the early 90s. when I first
took private lessons from her, I also had the chance to film and attend her
group lessons in Pittsburgh about a year ago. Michael apparently ignores
that there are many ways to walk in tango, I can assure you I generally walk
as described by me in Salon Tango technique, this is the way most great
dancers and instructors walk. (Nito, Osvaldo Zotto, Diego, and all the
others that teach salon style). I can walk as Susana walks if I want to, it
is totally possible to dance walking flat footed.

Yes there is an external rotation of the foot. This is also done and taught
by most great dancers and teachers. This subject was already discussed by me
in detail in another note.

the dictionary: says:
Dude : a man extremely fastidious in dress and manner : DANDY
2 : a city dweller unfamiliar with life on the range; especially : an
Easterner in the West
3 : FELLOW, GUY

I do not know which definition of that word refers to me.

I can assure that I know what a hip shift is and have experienced it on and
outside the dancing floor multiple times.

Michael says : "Leading by use of arms or hands should never be necessary. I
was very
lucky early on to take lessons with a milonguera who forced me to dance
with my hands behind my back for many, many sessions. Who needs hands or
arms when you have hearts and bodies?"

Leading with hands is done and taught by most of the great dancers of
salon style, I do it regularly and I teach how to do it. My students have a
great acceptance in the USA and also in Argentina. I know most tango
instructors personally,I have dance with them,I have attended multiple
workshops where I officiated as translator or where I took part in. So
Osvaldo Zotto, Nito Garcia, Diego (y Carolina), Carlos Copello, Rodolfo
Cieri, Puppy Costello, Gabriel Misse, etc, etc, they all lead with their
hands. If Michael finds it to be unnecessary this is acceptable to me.

I was instructor assistant (for Nito and Elba) Angel (a fine dancer and
instructor from New York was our translator) at Cosmotango - CITA - this
las March in Buenos Aires. I was dancing with a Japanese girl during a
lesson when she told me all of a sudden "you should lead with your chest -
not with your arms and hands), I laughed and responded, _ "Who is leading? -
you are- she said, then I lead as it pleases me, if you do not like it you
can go an dance with somebody else.

As I said before there are many misconceptions about tango dancing.

Now one thing is to be ignorant another totally different is to have the
arrogance of pretending that you know what you are talking about when your
knowledge is so limited. I was dancing tango before the author of interest
critique even knew that tango existed.

The rest of Michaels long note is a repetition of my concepts as stated
before.

Finally I started the Erie Tango Club of Pennsylvania, I have been teaching
tango, in its three styles, open and close embrace for more than 10 years, I
do this as a hobby for this is not my profession.
My students are very successful dancers here in the three state area an also
in Argentina.

I know in minute detail those styles and how they are danced, now as it is
usual the case, comes somebody that knows only one style and tries to
correct what certainly needs no correction.

This is another subject, I am not going to answer any ridiculous comments as
I stated at the beginning of this discussion.

I am glad most people that know something about tango have sent thank you
notes for the discussion of this impossible subject.

Have a good day.

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:54:50 -0700
From: Jean-Marie Herve Michel <jhmichel@STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: the styles discussion

SO I guess the best approach is to learn Salon and from that expand.

herve
Quoting Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>:

> I noticed since my childhood as I was growing in Buenos Aires that
> people
> danced tango in different ways. We considered that most people had his
> or
> her particular style of dancing. We called milonguero somebody that was
> all
> the time at the milongas. The only distinction of styles at the time (at
> least for us) was "salon" danced socially and stage danced at the
> theater.
>
> It was in the early 90s. that I came across an article on the newspaper
> Clarin of Buenos Aires in which there was a description of three
> prevalent
> styles of tango being danced at the time.
> They had a description and a corresponding name accompanied by the names
> of
> someinstructors of each style. They were Salon, Milonguero and Nuevo
> Tango.
> I wrote a note in Tango-L reporting this fact. The names were accepted
> in
> North America but a lot of confusion with respect to what they meant
> persisted all along these years.
>
> I attempted to clarify the meaning of those terms on many opportunities
> to
> crash against a wall of misunderstanding, defensiveness, and aggression
> of
> all sorts that would cause me to shrug my shoulders and give up with the
> thought that was best to let those people die in total ignorance of
> their
> own ignorance. :)
>
> The reasons of such irrational reactions originated in the fact that
> although everybody was happy to know that the style they danced had some
> advantages over the others nobody wanted to accept that "their" style
> could
> have some limitations. Further more the instructors cultivating a
> certain
> style were afraid they would start losing students that knowing the
> advantages of another style might stampede to learn something else. :)).
> So
> they would gang together in an effort to silence this uncomfortable
> subject
> again and again.
>
> I am glad I was perseverant for this is the first time I could get the
> subject to be understood at least by some people.
>
> Oleh says :
>
> "Sergio Vandekier defined the walk in milonguero and salon styles and
> then
> wrote:
>
> "Summary: many dancers of milonguero style dance in a different way than
> the
> one by me described before. I find irrelevant to mention the differences
> existing among "milonguero style" teachers at this time."
>
> From what is written above it follows that the definition of the style
> might
> fall apart hence the convenient irrelevance.
> and
> "It will be very unlikely that you will have interest or ability to dance
> in
> any other style."
>
> I agree with possible lack of interest but where does the lack of
> ability
> come from?
>
> Cheers, Oleh K. "
>
> My answer to these comments is as follows: I described the milonguero
> dancing style as taught by Susana Miller. I mentioned that the main
> instructors of this style dance differently one form the other. Susana
> dances differently than Cacho Dante and both of them dance differently
> than
> Tete does (just to give an example). ***The definition of the style
> does
> not fall apart at all, Milonguero is a well defined style that like most
> tango styles has multiple variations. The irrelevance of the discussion
> of
> these details comes from the fact that when one is discussing the
> characteristics of the mother " dancing styles", subject that is barely
> understood by a great group of dancers it seems to me, superfluous to
> discuss differences within the same style.
>
> With respect to "It will be very unlikely that you will have interest or
> ability to dance in any other style." my explanation is that close
> embrace,
> be it salon or milonguero have a "different" technique from dancing in
> open
> embrace.
> If your initial instruction is "only" in close embrace, (IMO) most
> people
> will be set to dance in that form for the rest of their lives. I have
> discussed this subjects with many old time dancers and instructors and
> they
> seem to agree. This happens because there is lack of interest in
> learning
> other styles that they do not practice, styles that have a more
> complicated
> and difficult to learn technique.
> This does not mean that if anyone has the purpose to learn open style he
> would be totally unable, not at all, is that there will be no incentive
> to
> make the effort of the transition.
> The same happens with Nuevo Tango dancers, they use a totally different
> technique, once they are set to dance that way, they have little
> incentive
> to learn other styles.
>
> When you learn Salon Open and close embrace as your initial style, on
> the
> other hand this gives you a solid base from where you can learn any
> other
> style if you have the interest and put some dedication and effort. Most
> of
> the dancers of multiple styles like myself learnt Salon first.
>
> Summary: this is my opinion based in my own experience. It is only
> natural
> to accept that every style, like everything else in life has pros and
> cons.
> ...will continue.
>
> FREE!
>
>

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 22:15:47 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: the styles discussion

Hello all,

to me the styles discussion seems more and more ridiculous. The more you
differentiate between styles, the more subdivisions appear, and as has
been pointed out already, no two milongueros dance alike anyway.
To me, only one division makes sense somewhat: whether someone4s personal
style (and it should always be personal) fits into the milonga or not.
If there must be categories, it is probably best just to call it salsn
(for social dancing, which will usually have a more or less close embrace,
con luz or no) or stage tango (fantasia?) - both categories don4t say
anything about style, though. If you really start talking style, the
definitions will start piling up.
If I am asked to describe some dancer4s style, nobody will get any clear
idea if I say "salon" (which is something of a catch-all) or even
"milonguero" (which is a bit narrower probably). I will have to talk about
the nature of the embrace used, posture, apilado or not, stepping style
etc, so in the end I would describe that person4s *personal* style.
Needed to get that off my chest.
(btw, the milonguero/salon/stage (or nuevo?) categorization seems to be
quite unique to the U.S.)

Cheers,
Andreas

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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:37:35 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: the styles discussion

Andreas writes:

> (btw, the milonguero/salon/stage (or nuevo?) categorization seems to be
> quite unique to the U.S.)

Without jumping into the style definition/naming "discussion", the
above statement is definitely NOT SO. My friends in BsAs inform
me quite unequivocally that they dance "Mixed" (Salon with a
close embrace) and are currently learning to dance the "Milonguero"
style !

John G.

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 00:06:20 +0200
From: Andy <Andy.Ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: the styles discussion

Andreas Wichter wrote:

>to me the styles discussion seems more and more ridiculous. The more you
>differentiate between styles, the more subdivisions appear, and as has
>been pointed out already, no two milongueros dance alike anyway.
>

The discussion is, in fact ridiculous, but this is a matter of the style
in which some of the participants react.
It seems to be an academic dispute which way to place the feet belongs
to which style. But there is a very practical use of theories, once you
have a problem. The problem is e.g. you cannot feel comfortable with a
new partner, but you know he / she is a good dancer, so it cannot be a
matter of lack of practice or knowledge. You may give up and say ok, we
do not fit together, or I am not good enough for her /him. But you may
also try to change something to make it fit. If you know that different
styles exist, and you know about the differences, even better if you can
dance them, you can switch to something else and have a good time with
this particular partner.
Of course you can try to change something in your posture, lead etc.
without any knowledge about styles and their names, but at least you
have to know and accept that different people learned different things
from different teachers and that they are not all right or wrong, only
different.
Giving names to things and building classes, categories is a human
necessity, otherwise we couldn't handle the complex reality and we
couldn't communicate. There is always some controversy discussion about
the right names and classifications, maybe we are only at the beginning
and Tango keeps changing, but this is no reason to give up.

Andy

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 02:08:48 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: the styles discussion

Hello Andy, (still up, too?)
I was not saying that "milonguero" does not have a few characteristics
that make it stand out from other salon styles... but knowing the name of
your partner4s style doesn4t mean you can adapt. That4s a matter of skill
and training.
My point was basically that I consider anything that is useful in the
milonga as salon. Milonguero would be a subcategory, otherwise what is
e.g. Villa Urquiza style? To me, a style of salon, and possible precursor
to nuevo (that4s a guess, anybody have something on that?).
My dance, for example, has some characteristics of milonguero (I learned a
bit from Tete and Susana Miller, among others), but I wouldn4t call it
that. I dance salon, and in that category, my own style, which I vary
according to my partner (since the woman can determine a lot about how you
(can) dance), the music, my mood at the moment, the space available and
the antics (or not) of other dancers on the floor.
See ya,
Andreas

> Andreas Wichter wrote:
>
> >to me the styles discussion seems more and more ridiculous. The more

you

> >differentiate between styles, the more subdivisions appear, and as has
> >been pointed out already, no two milongueros dance alike anyway.
> >
> The discussion is, in fact ridiculous, but this is a matter of the style
> in which some of the participants react.
> It seems to be an academic dispute which way to place the feet belongs
> to which style. But there is a very practical use of theories, once you
> have a problem. The problem is e.g. you cannot feel comfortable with a
> new partner, but you know he / she is a good dancer, so it cannot be a
> matter of lack of practice or knowledge. You may give up and say ok, we
> do not fit together, or I am not good enough for her /him. But you may
> also try to change something to make it fit. If you know that different
> styles exist, and you know about the differences, even better if you can
> dance them, you can switch to something else and have a good time with
> this particular partner.
> Of course you can try to change something in your posture, lead etc.
> without any knowledge about styles and their names, but at least you
> have to know and accept that different people learned different things
> >from different teachers and that they are not all right or wrong, only
> different.
> Giving names to things and building classes, categories is a human
> necessity, otherwise we couldn't handle the complex reality and we
> couldn't communicate. There is always some controversy discussion about
> the right names and classifications, maybe we are only at the beginning
> and Tango keeps changing, but this is no reason to give up.
>
> Andy
>
>

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