5403 The Suggested Lead
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 18:18:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I am sure that someone is going to respond with a version of this that doesn't use the word "suggest", but has the same effect. In that case, we are all intending the same thing, but, we use different language. Live and let live ...
A SUGGESTED LEAD
The leader suggests a side step about 18 inches in length.
The follower misreads the suggestion and steps 12 inches in length.
The leader follows the follower 12 inches.
When the step is completed, the follower is balanced.
THE NON-SUGGESTED LEAD
The leader leads and steps to 18 inches.
The follower misreads the lead and steps 12 inches.
When the step is completed, the follower is thrown off balance.
Whoops!
THE EXERCISE FOR NEW LEADERS
The leader leads a step to his left.
The follower moves her right foot, first.
Once the follower's foot has moved outside of the leader's left foot,
the outside of the leader's left foot is not to go past the inside of the follower's foot
until she sets her foot down.
Difficult, at first. But, once he gets it, he will step before his follower less often.
<-- x follower's right foot.
<-- x leader's left foot.
Let me say it, again, this way:
While their feet are moving,
the outside of the leader's left foot is in line with the inside of the follower's right foot.
Thus, he cannot move ahead of her.
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Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 21:25:20 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
TFH:
Sounds like to me the leader has a weak frame. If the man's frame moves 18 inches to the left, the woman should move 18 inches to her right. Regardless, you are correct that the man shouldn't move beyond the woman.
Michael
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:18 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
I am sure that someone is going to respond with a version of this that doesn't use the word "suggest", but has the same effect. In that case, we are all intending the same thing, but, we use different language. Live and let live ...
A SUGGESTED LEAD
The leader suggests a side step about 18 inches in length.
The follower misreads the suggestion and steps 12 inches in length.
The leader follows the follower 12 inches.
When the step is completed, the follower is balanced.
THE NON-SUGGESTED LEAD
The leader leads and steps to 18 inches.
The follower misreads the lead and steps 12 inches.
When the step is completed, the follower is thrown off balance.
Whoops!
THE EXERCISE FOR NEW LEADERS
The leader leads a step to his left.
The follower moves her right foot, first.
Once the follower's foot has moved outside of the leader's left foot,
the outside of the leader's left foot is not to go past the inside of the follower's foot
until she sets her foot down.
Difficult, at first. But, once he gets it, he will step before his follower less often.
<-- x follower's right foot.
<-- x leader's left foot.
Let me say it, again, this way:
While their feet are moving,
the outside of the leader's left foot is in line with the inside of the follower's right foot.
Thus, he cannot move ahead of her.
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:21:08 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
May I ask how does the leader suggest those 18 inches?
I know how I do it, but I am interested in your way.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:18 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
>I am sure that someone is going to respond with a version of this that
>doesn't use the word "suggest", but has the same effect. In that case, we
>are all intending the same thing, but, we use different language. Live and
>let live ...
>
>
> A SUGGESTED LEAD
>
> The leader suggests a side step about 18 inches in length.
> The follower misreads the suggestion and steps 12 inches in length.
> The leader follows the follower 12 inches.
> When the step is completed, the follower is balanced.
>
>
> THE NON-SUGGESTED LEAD
>
> The leader leads and steps to 18 inches.
> The follower misreads the lead and steps 12 inches.
> When the step is completed, the follower is thrown off balance.
> Whoops!
>
>
> THE EXERCISE FOR NEW LEADERS
>
> The leader leads a step to his left.
> The follower moves her right foot, first.
> Once the follower's foot has moved outside of the leader's left foot,
> the outside of the leader's left foot is not to go past the inside of the
> follower's foot
> until she sets her foot down.
>
> Difficult, at first. But, once he gets it, he will step before his
> follower less often.
>
> <-- x follower's right foot.
> <-- x leader's left foot.
>
> Let me say it, again, this way:
> While their feet are moving,
> the outside of the leader's left foot is in line with the inside of the
> follower's right foot.
> Thus, he cannot move ahead of her.
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 04:50:13 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Very good question, Krasimir - given TFH's idea of shortening his own step
to allow for the woman's mis-read lead, I don't think he'll be able to
answer. But let's see. I wait with baited breath.
Keith, HK
On Wed Dec 26 15:21 , "Krasimir Stoyanov" sent:
>May I ask how does the leader suggest those 18 inches?
>I know how I do it, but I am interested in your way.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tango For Her" tangopeer@yahoo.com>
>To: tango-l@mit.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 4:18 AM
>Subject: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
>
>
>>I am sure that someone is going to respond with a version of this that
>>doesn't use the word "suggest", but has the same effect. In that case, we
>>are all intending the same thing, but, we use different language. Live and
>>let live ...
>>
>>
>> A SUGGESTED LEAD
>>
>> The leader suggests a side step about 18 inches in length.
>> The follower misreads the suggestion and steps 12 inches in length.
>> The leader follows the follower 12 inches.
>> When the step is completed, the follower is balanced.
>>
>>
>> THE NON-SUGGESTED LEAD
>>
>> The leader leads and steps to 18 inches.
>> The follower misreads the lead and steps 12 inches.
>> When the step is completed, the follower is thrown off balance.
>> Whoops!
>>
>>
>> THE EXERCISE FOR NEW LEADERS
>>
>> The leader leads a step to his left.
>> The follower moves her right foot, first.
>> Once the follower's foot has moved outside of the leader's left foot,
>> the outside of the leader's left foot is not to go past the inside of the
>> follower's foot
>> until she sets her foot down.
>>
>> Difficult, at first. But, once he gets it, he will step before his
>> follower less often.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Let me say it, again, this way:
>> While their feet are moving,
>> the outside of the leader's left foot is in line with the inside of the
>> follower's right foot.
>> Thus, he cannot move ahead of her.
>>
>>
>> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:17:04 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
TFH,
Your 'suggested lead' approach sounds like a horrible way to dance Tango. To me, a
tanguero should display the masculine qualities of leadership, strength [i.e. in the
frame] and confidence. Your leader sounds weak and hesitent. It's little wonder his
lead was misread.
Wouldn't it be easier to learn how to give a clear lead for the woman to make a step
of 18 inches, without any ambiguity? Michael's reponse sound's correct - your frame
is too weak. Otherwise she wouldn't have stepped short.
Keith, HK
On Wed Dec 26 10:18 , Tango For Her sent:
>I am sure that someone is going to respond with a version of this that doesn't use the word "suggest", but has the same effect. In that
case, we are all intending the same thing, but, we use different language. Live and let live ...
>
>
> A SUGGESTED LEAD
>
> The leader suggests a side step about 18 inches in length.
> The follower misreads the suggestion and steps 12 inches in length.
> The leader follows the follower 12 inches.
> When the step is completed, the follower is balanced.
>
>
> THE NON-SUGGESTED LEAD
>
> The leader leads and steps to 18 inches.
> The follower misreads the lead and steps 12 inches.
> When the step is completed, the follower is thrown off balance.
> Whoops!
>
>
> THE EXERCISE FOR NEW LEADERS
>
> The leader leads a step to his left.
> The follower moves her right foot, first.
> Once the follower's foot has moved outside of the leader's left foot,
> the outside of the leader's left foot is not to go past the inside of the follower's foot
> until she sets her foot down.
>
> Difficult, at first. But, once he gets it, he will step before his follower less often.
>
>
>
>
>Let me say it, again, this way:
> While their feet are moving,
> the outside of the leader's left foot is in line with the inside of the follower's right foot.
> Thus, he cannot move ahead of her.
>
>
>Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:54:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a long step is lead by lowering when you are in the pivot much like you would do if you had to push a car. You have to lower your center of gravity.
In my terminology, on a macro level, there are three things you can do in tango, you can do a side step, back step, front step and pivot. I mention this because I tend to overuse the word pivot. By pivot, in this conversation, I don't mean to turn. It is that place where your feet are together.
As you are together, with your feet together, and you bend the knee of the leg on which you are standing, she knows something is coming. Waiting with baited breath :o) she knows a long step may be coming.
Most of you have had classes where you stand chest-to-chest or, perhaps, in open embrace with your follower's hands on your chest and you attempt to lead different size steps. That is a class in itself. Once you get that feel, that fine communication with your partner, you CAN lead without a frame.
Now, with that said, I HAVE been lead by milongueros with that strong frame. It is quite something else. I use it from time to time. But, there are different ways to lead. The way of leading where you pay so much attention to your follower that you don't often need a strong frame, I am told over and over again, is a beautiful and much appreciated way to lead.
Followers comment that this way of leading is not only soft and full of subtle communications, but also that it is very exact. Typical comments that you can receive from this kind of lead are that she feels like she can?t do anything wrong, that she feels very secure, that she feels like she can do more because you are acutely aware of her balance, she feels like you are paying attention to her and waiting for her.
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Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 09:35:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Ilan <leeilan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hola-
I think (I hope!) folks mean bated breath (i.e. held, restrained) not baited breath (i.e. just had a big snack of anchovies.)
Otherwise the mis-reading of the lead most likely has an entirely different cause. :)
Ciao,
Lee
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Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:45:24 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
The idea of Tango For Her is wonderful - a leader follows the follower after
the lead.
I understand it very well. It is a very strong idea and it works.
But may I ask you a question, Tango For Her,
>>From what teacher did you learn this, who said that:
"We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a
long step is lead by lowering.."
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 10:59:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
>>From what teacher did you learn this, who said that:
"We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a
long step is lead by lowering.."
Too many to answer.
Think about it. If you keep your follower's chest very high, she can only take a small step.
Now, lower your knees. Your follower follows you. Her knees are bent and she can step much further.
You can also think of leading a very short step by moving your center up and down as if you are going over a bump that is a few inches wide and a couple of inches high. We all know that works.
Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
The idea of Tango For Her is wonderful - a leader follows the follower after
the lead.
I understand it very well. It is a very strong idea and it works.
But may I ask you a question, Tango For Her,
>>From what teacher did you learn this, who said that:
"We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a
long step is lead by lowering.."
Igor Polk
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Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 12:31:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Tsk, Tsk, some of you guys seem to be answering as if the
woman is an object. :)
The marca/lead and the movement of the step are two
different things. And what actually happens is a third
matter, which I think is the point of TFH's post. The
woman might decide to shorten the step (or lengthen it) for
different reasons. Maybe the floor is slippery and she
takes shorter steps to maintain her balance. Maybe her
shoe is slipping. Maybe she sees another couple barreling
down and she's trying to avoid a collision. Maybe her foot
gets stuck on a sticky spot when she's trying to glide
across. Maybe she's simply not a skilled dancer. Or maybe
the actual marca was different than the virtual marca the
man had in his head.
Igor:
It might help you to know that the default of the woman is
to keep her free leg straight and trying to reach the
floor. When the man lowers his center of gravity, her free
leg will naturally extend as her standing leg bends with
him. He will, of course, still need to indicate the
direction of her leg extension.
You might also enjoy this article by Sharna Fabiano in
which she uses metaphors of painting and cars to describe
tango, including the woman's role.
Understanding Tango Language and the Follower's Defaults
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
Happy Holidays!
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> The idea of Tango For Her is wonderful - a leader follows
> the follower after
> the lead.
> I understand it very well. It is a very strong idea and
> it works.
>
> But may I ask you a question, Tango For Her,
> >From what teacher did you learn this, who said that:
> "We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising
> your center and a
> long step is lead by lowering.."
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:15:25 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sound great,
But still, name couple of the most known teachers?
Igor
**************
>>From what teacher did you learn this, who said that:
"We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a
long step is lead by lowering.."
Too many to answer.
Think about it. If you keep your follower's chest very high, she can only
take a small step.
Now, lower your knees. Your follower follows you. Her knees are bent and
she can step much further.
You can also think of leading a very short step by moving your center up
and down as if you are going over a bump that is a few inches wide and a
couple of inches high. We all know that works.
Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
The idea of Tango For Her is wonderful - a leader follows the follower
after
the lead.
I understand it very well. It is a very strong idea and it works.
But may I ask you a question, Tango For Her,
>>From what teacher did you learn this, who said that:
"We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a
long step is lead by lowering.."
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:21:14 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
To Trini
I did not say that. That was Tango For Her.
Please, be careful with quotations.
Besides, if you not like thinking about a woman like an object,
would it be better for you to think about her like a subject? ;)
Aha, Sharna Fabiano used painting and cars as metaphors, I'll check it out
for the brainstorming..
Igor Polk.
Tsk, Tsk, some of you guys seem to be answering as if the
woman is an object. :)
The marca/lead and the movement of the step are two
different things. And what actually happens is a third
matter, which I think is the point of TFH's post. The
woman might decide to shorten the step (or lengthen it) for
different reasons. Maybe the floor is slippery and she
takes shorter steps to maintain her balance. Maybe her
shoe is slipping. Maybe she sees another couple barreling
down and she's trying to avoid a collision. Maybe her foot
gets stuck on a sticky spot when she's trying to glide
across. Maybe she's simply not a skilled dancer. Or maybe
the actual marca was different than the virtual marca the
man had in his head.
Igor:
It might help you to know that the default of the woman is
to keep her free leg straight and trying to reach the
floor. When the man lowers his center of gravity, her free
leg will naturally extend as her standing leg bends with
him. He will, of course, still need to indicate the
direction of her leg extension.
You might also enjoy this article by Sharna Fabiano in
which she uses metaphors of painting and cars to describe
tango, including the woman's role.
Understanding Tango Language and the Follower's Defaults
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/
Happy Holidays!
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:46:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Sorry, Igor. I did not mean to suggest that either you or
TFH were responding with the woman as an object. I was
just a little disturbed that TFH offered a very nice
exercise that could be useful to the newbies on this list.
However, the responses could muddle it up for the newbies
instead of making it clearer and helpful to them.
If I am misreading the spirit/intention of some of the
posts, my apologies to the posters.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> To Trini
>
> I did not say that. That was Tango For Her.
> Please, be careful with quotations.
>
> Besides, if you not like thinking about a woman like an
> object,
> would it be better for you to think about her like a
> subject? ;)
>
> Aha, Sharna Fabiano used painting and cars as metaphors,
> I'll check it out
> for the brainstorming..
>
> Igor Polk.
>
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:12:18 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
TFH,
I think we all agree that the longer the step, the greater the lowering action. This is simple body mechanics. However, your description
of the lead seems to be that the lowering action takes place, and is completed, before the commencement of the step. I.e. the amount of
lowering directly leads the length of the step. I don't think I agree with this approach.
Yes, the actual commencement of the step will be preceded by some lateral and lowering movement of the body, i.e. the lead. However, and
especially in the case of a long step, the lateral and lowering movement of the body will accompany the step. What this means is that the
lateral movement of the body will determine the length of the step. The lowering movement is simply necessary to accomplish the length of
the step and to assist in its lead.
For the man to lead an 18 inch step, he must move his body 18 inches. In your previous post, you said a man could lead an 18 inch step
but then, due to a mis-reading of the lead by the woman, change his own step to a 12 inch step. I still don't see how this is possible.
If the man moves his body 18 inches and then steps 12 inches, he's going to be way off balance and, in turn, will pull the woman off
balance. Of course, what would actually happen is that the man might intend to lead an 18 inch step but, when he feels the woman's foot
go down after 12 inches, he changes his lead to match the woman's step. But that means he never actually led the 18 inch step and
everyone is happy.
Keith, HK
On Thu Dec 27 0:54 , Tango For Her sent:
>We have all learned that a short step is lead by raising your center and a long step is lead by lowering when you are in the pivot much
like you would do if you had to push a car. You have to lower your center of gravity.
>
> In my terminology, on a macro level, there are three things you can do in tango, you can do a side step, back step, front step and
pivot. I mention this because I tend to overuse the word pivot. By pivot, in this conversation, I don't mean to turn. It is that place
where your feet are together.
>
> As you are together, with your feet together, and you bend the knee of the leg on which you are standing, she knows something is
coming. Waiting with baited breath :o) she knows a long step may be coming.
>
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:43:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I actually didn't state enough detail for you to disagree to any great extent. My concepts are correct and yours added to them. You see, don't make assumptions that I would have done something wrong just because I didn't complete the entire flow of action. I would rather you just add to what I said as you did, below.
As for the last paragraph, if my partner steps 12 inches, then, me too, period.
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Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 06:26:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Michael wrote:
"If the frame is weak, she can't track the center."
I just wanted to clarify ... if you go to the extreme
of providing no frame for your follower, here is what
happens:
1. She follows the best that she can.
2. You become acutely aware of where she is, how she
is following, her timing, and a lot more.
Your dance become about a myriad of small
communications. It is a beautiful awareness.
Now, add just enough frame to correct for the places
where the connection broke down and ... well, see for
yourself! I can tell you that I will never go back to
leading with a strong frame, except for during the
occassional move that warrants it.
--- Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> You are correct that your frame doesn't move the
> woman. She has to move herself. HOWEVER, your
> frame's direction indicates the direction she should
> move and the distance your frame moves indicates how
> much she should move.
>
> An alternative explanation is if the leader's center
> moves 18 inches to the left, she should move 18
> inches to the right. The leader's frame is supposed
> to keep her in the center. She should follow the
> leader's center. If the frame is weak, she can't
> track the center. She won't move 18 inches because
> she can't feel 18 inches of movement unless the man
> sweeps her like a broom and forces her to move 18
> inches to her right.
>
> Michael
> I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tango For Her
> To: Michael ; tango-l@mit.edu
> Cc: Michael
> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
>
>
> On the contrary, I believe that the lead comes
> from our centers. My frame is to let her know that
> I am there for her / with her. My frame is not to
> move her.
>
> If she misread my lead, then, it is my belief that
> I lost my concentration. Next time, I will correct
> for it, show my intention a little stronger, with
> just my body movement and we'll see what happens.
>
> However, I could respond in a different way. If
> you mean that she should have felt my right arm,
> with a strong frame, then, if her body reacts to it,
> correctly, then, we will both move the correct
> distance. However, if she felt it and, still didn't
> move the full distance, I would prefer to follow her
> to the completion of her step.
>
> Thanks for the response!
>
> Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> TFH:
> Sounds like to me the leader has a weak frame.
> If the man's frame moves 18 inches to the left, the
> woman should move 18 inches to her right.
> Regardless, you are correct that the man shouldn't
> move beyond the woman.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
> I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tango For Her"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:18 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
>
>
> I am sure that someone is going to respond with
> a version of this that doesn't use the word
> "suggest", but has the same effect. In that case, we
> are all intending the same thing, but, we use
> different language. Live and let live ...
>
>
> A SUGGESTED LEAD
>
> The leader suggests a side step about 18 inches
> in length.
> The follower misreads the suggestion and steps
> 12 inches in length.
> The leader follows the follower 12 inches.
> When the step is completed, the follower is
> balanced.
>
>
> THE NON-SUGGESTED LEAD
>
> The leader leads and steps to 18 inches.
> The follower misreads the lead and steps 12
> inches.
> When the step is completed, the follower is
> thrown off balance.
> Whoops!
>
>
> THE EXERCISE FOR NEW LEADERS
>
> The leader leads a step to his left.
> The follower moves her right foot, first.
> Once the follower's foot has moved outside of
> the leader's left foot,
> the outside of the leader's left foot is not to
> go past the inside of the follower's foot
> until she sets her foot down.
>
> Difficult, at first. But, once he gets it, he
> will step before his follower less often.
>
> <-- x follower's right foot.
> <-- x leader's left foot.
>
> Let me say it, again, this way:
> While their feet are moving,
> the outside of the leader's left foot is in line
> with the inside of the follower's right foot.
> Thus, he cannot move ahead of her.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 03:50:48 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Tango-L@Mit.Edu, Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
Tango for her wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> "If the frame is weak, she can't track the center."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I just wanted to clarify ... if you go to the extreme
> of providing no frame for your follower, here is what
> happens:
>
> 1. She follows the best that she can.
>
> 2. You become acutely aware of where she is, how she
> is following, her timing, and a lot more.
>
I can tell you that I will never go back to
> leading with a strong frame, except for during the
> occassional move that warrants it.
>
If I have no frame, I'm not aware of where the woman is and
what foot she is on. I never wrote to dance with a strong
frame. If anything, dance with a firm frame. Strong and firm
are not the same. A firm frame is like a cast on an arm. It
gives support to the arm and the arm moves when the upper
body moves. An alternative explanation is the the man's
right arm is like a seat belt that keeps the woman in the
correct position relative to the man. If the frame is weak,
she doesn't move with the man's frame and is left behind.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Picking up my bus ticket to NY today for New Year's Eve at
www.celebratetango.com
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:54:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Tango-L@Mit.Edu
If the frame is weak, she doesn't move with the man's
frame and is left behind.
Try having a weak frame, or no frame at all. Your
follower, being aware of your center, will follow you.
She will not be left behind. She might not follow
you 100%, but, she will follow you. And, if she does
not follow you 100%, then, it is your job to stay with
her. You both become more connected because of it.
Now, add just a little more frame, and your connection
will be better than before this exercise.
Try it OFTEN. It really does make for a much better
dance.
--- Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> Tango for her wrote:
>
> > Michael wrote:
> >
> > "If the frame is weak, she can't track the
> center."
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> > I just wanted to clarify ... if you go to the
> extreme
> > of providing no frame for your follower, here is
> what
> > happens:
> >
> > 1. She follows the best that she can.
> >
> > 2. You become acutely aware of where she is, how
> she
> > is following, her timing, and a lot more.
> >
> I can tell you that I will never go back to
> > leading with a strong frame, except for during the
> > occassional move that warrants it.
>
> >
> If I have no frame, I'm not aware of where the woman
> is and
> what foot she is on. I never wrote to dance with a
> strong
> frame. If anything, dance with a firm frame. Strong
> and firm
> are not the same. A firm frame is like a cast on an
> arm. It
> gives support to the arm and the arm moves when the
> upper
> body moves. An alternative explanation is the the
> man's
> right arm is like a seat belt that keeps the woman
> in the
> correct position relative to the man. If the frame
> is weak,
> she doesn't move with the man's frame and is left
> behind.
>
> Michael Ditkoff
> Washington, DC
> Picking up my bus ticket to NY today for New Year's
> Eve at
> www.celebratetango.com
>
> I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:53:18 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Tango For Her wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> "If the frame is weak, she can't track the center."
>
>
> I just wanted to clarify ... if you go to the extreme
> of providing no frame for your follower, here is what
> happens:
>
No.
If you provide no frame, there is no way to communicate at all. It's like
having a conversation about philisophy with someone with your mouth
taped over.
What you name "no frame" is actually just as much a frame. It's
just one that uses little static resistance and one with a little
flexibility and little jerk (as defined in physics - the derivative
of acceleration).
It's not weak, it's light.
If it's really weak, then the follower really has no way if knowing
where you're going, and she has to feel it when it's too late (the
tango equivalent to bungee jumping) when an (incorrect) framing
relationship is eventually re-established.
No doubt it keeps the follower in her toes, but not in a good way.
Shock and awe should be reserved for military uses.
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:49:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Feel free to start a thread on "The Frame". Sure, you
can say that going through the practice of leading
with no arms is still a frame. But, it takes away
>from the point of my post:
To illustrate the suggested lead and an example of
practicing the finer points of leading.
The intent is for the follower to follow my center, my
chest. I suggest with my chest, she follows as far as
SHE figures out to follow and I follow her to that
end-point. Actually, there is a lot of finer back and
forth communication that goes on during this exercise.
It creates a heightened awareness for the leader and
the follower.
By calling it shock and awe, I guess it is being
strongly stated that you should not try this at home!
However, it is, actually, an exercise that will
improve your dance.
It keeps the follower and the leader on their toes and
a fantastic way: heightened awareness.
When I dance, I dance with a very light frame, most of
the time. However, this topic was about an exercise
that is very beneficial.
Also, in a milonga, yes, in a milonga, sometimes, when
our connection is poor, I will make my frame so light
that it is almost not there.
- It makes ME more aware of leading with my center.
- It makes ME pay more attention to what she is doing.
- It makes my follower more aware of following my
center.
Then, when I strengthen my frame, the dance is much
more beautiful.
This is an example of doing the exercise with
extremely little frame and has been proven over and
over, again.
THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK
I don't mind the counterpoint arguments. But, I just
want to be clear, for those who are looking for ways
to improve their lead, this method works wonders.
To the many of you who write back to me, personally,
and tell me that these principles work, thank you for
your feedback.
I think that we all find that:
(1) those who agree don't write back to the group
(2) those who don't agree do write to the group.
So, don't let the one or two people who want to say
"No! No! No!" detour you from learning the finer
points of the dance.
--- Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
> Tango For Her wrote:
> > Michael wrote:
> >
> > "If the frame is weak, she can't track the
> center."
> >
> >
> > I just wanted to clarify ... if you go to the
> extreme
> > of providing no frame for your follower, here is
> what
> > happens:
> >
> No.
>
> If you provide no frame, there is no way to
> communicate at all. It's like
> having a conversation about philisophy with someone
> with your mouth
> taped over.
>
> What you name "no frame" is actually just as much a
> frame. It's
> just one that uses little static resistance and one
> with a little
> flexibility and little jerk (as defined in physics -
> the derivative
> of acceleration).
>
> It's not weak, it's light.
>
> If it's really weak, then the follower really has no
> way if knowing
> where you're going, and she has to feel it when it's
> too late (the
> tango equivalent to bungee jumping) when an
> (incorrect) framing
> relationship is eventually re-established.
>
> No doubt it keeps the follower in her toes, but not
> in a good way.
> Shock and awe should be reserved for military uses.
>
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:30:19 -0500
From: "Jacob Eggers" <eggers.pierola@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<dfa4cf020712310830t4a3a6102ka3badb7f941aab2@mail.gmail.com>
I want to second TFH's advice.
Dancing without a frame has been very helpful for me.
j
On Dec 31, 2007 10:49 AM, Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Feel free to start a thread on "The Frame". Sure, you
> can say that going through the practice of leading
> with no arms is still a frame. But, it takes away
> from the point of my post:
>
> To illustrate the suggested lead and an example of
> practicing the finer points of leading.
>
> The intent is for the follower to follow my center, my
> chest. I suggest with my chest, she follows as far as
> SHE figures out to follow and I follow her to that
> end-point. Actually, there is a lot of finer back and
> forth communication that goes on during this exercise.
> It creates a heightened awareness for the leader and
> the follower.
>
> By calling it shock and awe, I guess it is being
> strongly stated that you should not try this at home!
> However, it is, actually, an exercise that will
> improve your dance.
>
> It keeps the follower and the leader on their toes and
> a fantastic way: heightened awareness.
>
> When I dance, I dance with a very light frame, most of
> the time. However, this topic was about an exercise
> that is very beneficial.
>
> Also, in a milonga, yes, in a milonga, sometimes, when
> our connection is poor, I will make my frame so light
> that it is almost not there.
> - It makes ME more aware of leading with my center.
> - It makes ME pay more attention to what she is doing.
> - It makes my follower more aware of following my
> center.
> Then, when I strengthen my frame, the dance is much
> more beautiful.
>
> This is an example of doing the exercise with
> extremely little frame and has been proven over and
> over, again.
>
> THANKS FOR THE FEEDBACK
>
> I don't mind the counterpoint arguments. But, I just
> want to be clear, for those who are looking for ways
> to improve their lead, this method works wonders.
>
> To the many of you who write back to me, personally,
> and tell me that these principles work, thank you for
> your feedback.
>
> I think that we all find that:
> (1) those who agree don't write back to the group
> (2) those who don't agree do write to the group.
>
> So, don't let the one or two people who want to say
> "No! No! No!" detour you from learning the finer
> points of the dance.
>
>
>
>
> --- Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
>
> > Tango For Her wrote:
> > > Michael wrote:
> > >
> > > "If the frame is weak, she can't track the
> > center."
> > >
> > >
> > > I just wanted to clarify ... if you go to the
> > extreme
> > > of providing no frame for your follower, here is
> > what
> > > happens:
> > >
> > No.
> >
> > If you provide no frame, there is no way to
> > communicate at all. It's like
> > having a conversation about philisophy with someone
> > with your mouth
> > taped over.
> >
> > What you name "no frame" is actually just as much a
> > frame. It's
> > just one that uses little static resistance and one
> > with a little
> > flexibility and little jerk (as defined in physics -
> > the derivative
> > of acceleration).
> >
> > It's not weak, it's light.
> >
> > If it's really weak, then the follower really has no
> > way if knowing
> > where you're going, and she has to feel it when it's
> > too late (the
> > tango equivalent to bungee jumping) when an
> > (incorrect) framing
> > relationship is eventually re-established.
> >
> > No doubt it keeps the follower in her toes, but not
> > in a good way.
> > Shock and awe should be reserved for military uses.
> >
>
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
>
>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:42:46 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Tango For Her wote:
"I think that we all find that:
(1) those who agree don't write back to the group
(2) those who don't agree do write to the group. "
There is at least one additional possibility...
Some of us disagree but realize that there is no
possiblity of changing your mind, and have decided
not to waste our time.
Nevertheless...
In my opinion "the finer points of dance" have nothing
to do with NOT creating a physical connection. That
physical connection is what enables both haptic
communication and our perception of our partner and
their relationship to us.
Encouraging people to use visual clues can distract
them from learning to use both propriopercption and
their ability to sense changes in pressure where they
are in physical contact with their partner. Those changes
indicate the "lead", or "where the partner is" in relation
to the lead and the leader.
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:30:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I NEVER ENCOURAGED ANYONE TO USE VISUAL CUES. Do the
exercise in close embrace with your eyes closed!
In the end, this exercise teaches you to create a
better connection and a softer dance.
No matter how much you try to tear pick holes in an
exercise that has great results, it is still an
exercise that has great results!
--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tango For Her wote:
> "I think that we all find that:
> (1) those who agree don't write back to the group
> (2) those who don't agree do write to the group. "
>
> There is at least one additional possibility...
>
> Some of us disagree but realize that there is no
> possiblity of changing your mind, and have decided
> not to waste our time.
>
> Nevertheless...
>
> In my opinion "the finer points of dance" have
> nothing
> to do with NOT creating a physical connection.
> That
> physical connection is what enables both haptic
> communication and our perception of our partner
> and
> their relationship to us.
> Encouraging people to use visual clues can
> distract
> them from learning to use both propriopercption
> and
> their ability to sense changes in pressure where
> they
> are in physical contact with their partner. Those
> changes
> indicate the "lead", or "where the partner is" in
> relation
> to the lead and the leader.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
> fast with Yahoo! Search.
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 16:59:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead/Frame
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Actually, I have to agree with TFH that practicing without
the arms is great, if it is done correctly. It is done
correctly if the couple still move in unison. It is not
correct if he gets ahead of her. For women, this practice
technique makes them more aware of their balance, makes
them move themselves (be more active), and can encourage
them to be creative. For men, it makes them wait for the
woman and really be aware of her.
Michael, if you have problems finding a woman's axis, the
problem could be with the woman. She always needs to
convey to the man where her axis is. I don't believe that
a man should assume responsibilities that aren't his,
otherwise, the dance could become a chore for him instead
of fun. Others may have different opinions. Since you
don't dance open-embrace, you might not have explored using
no embrace but doing so will help your close-embrace.
But an interesting aspect is WHEN the frame needs to be
strong and when it can lighten up. When I lead, I make
sure it is firm for the intial lead, but I lighten up a
touch when the woman starts moving so that I can adjust for
what she actually does. I lighten up a bit so that the
woman can move freely and find her own balance point. I
might stay firm if I know I want to control her weight
shift, but that usually isn't the case.
What I often find is that men usually have a much firmer
embrace than is necessary. They seem to confuse
maintaining contact with keeping a firm embrace. My best
dance partners are those who can maintain contact (I feel
cared for in his arms) but who don't try to control me.
Happy New Year!
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tango For Her wote:
> "I think that we all find that:
> (1) those who agree don't write back to the group
> (2) those who don't agree do write to the group. "
>
> There is at least one additional possibility...
>
> Some of us disagree but realize that there is no
> possiblity of changing your mind, and have decided
> not to waste our time.
>
> Nevertheless...
>
> In my opinion "the finer points of dance" have nothing
> to do with NOT creating a physical connection. That
> physical connection is what enables both haptic
> communication and our perception of our partner and
> their relationship to us.
> Encouraging people to use visual clues can distract
> them from learning to use both propriopercption and
> their ability to sense changes in pressure where they
> are in physical contact with their partner. Those
> changes
> indicate the "lead", or "where the partner is" in
> relation
> to the lead and the leader.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast
> with Yahoo! Search.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:07:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead/ Visual cues
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I NEVER ENCOURAGED ANYONE TO USE VISUAL CUES. Do the
> exercise in close embrace with your eyes closed!
And what is so wrong with using visual cues? It's still
one of the 5 senses. I see it as a useful tool until the
sense of touch or kinethetics is further developed. To me,
cutting off part of your body to learn this dance doesn't
make much sense.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 17:31:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead/ Visual cues
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Thanks for pointing that out, Trini.
I didn't say to use them or not to use them. I was
just commenting on the exercise. (And, actually, the
exercise could be done using visual cues.) Thanks,
again!
Have you ever heard of Jose Garofolo? That man has
some fantastic moves based on visual cues and and they
are a lot of fun!
I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO USE ALL KINDS OF CUES! See
what makes you a better dancer. Keep learning! And,
for goodness sake, go out tonight and dance some soft
tango!
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
> --- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I NEVER ENCOURAGED ANYONE TO USE VISUAL CUES. Do
> the
> > exercise in close embrace with your eyes closed!
>
> And what is so wrong with using visual cues? It's
> still
> one of the 5 senses. I see it as a useful tool
> until the
> sense of touch or kinethetics is further developed.
> To me,
> cutting off part of your body to learn this dance
> doesn't
> make much sense.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s
> most popular social dance!
> https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
>
>
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 14:56:54 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
First a note to the the list... I have communicated with
Tango for Her regarding the questions and concerns about
my previous post.
Now...
To me the discussion about visual clues is one of do you
encourage people to use them, or not, and how much.
More on propiorerception, this time from a magazine dealing
with dance.
Words in parens are mine.
Proprioperception is largely unconscious.
Honing this sense can also improve your balance.
We learn more quickly and effectively when we pay attention
to the feeling of new movement as well as what it looks like.
You can detect changes in muscle length and joint angle and
position (and balance). When the information from these sensors
is combined, you have a clear picture of how your body is moving
(or where it should move to).
Regarding "the Frame"... I'll let someone else start the Frame thread.
Let me pitch this, and see what the reaction is.
Simply stated, "the Frame" collapses when in close embrace / apilado /
milonguero. The physical contact through the torso replaces the arms /
hands as the point of haptic communication between partners.
The "embrace" continues, of course.
As the embrace opens, or becomes less symmetric (the Frame expands),
communication moves into the the arms/ hands.
The imprecision of our vocabulary creates lots of discussion. Does thinking
of the Frame as collapsing and expanding and being the conveyor of
information, or not, help any?
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Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:59:05 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead/ Visual cues
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> --- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I NEVER ENCOURAGED ANYONE TO USE VISUAL CUES. Do the
>> exercise in close embrace with your eyes closed!
>
> And what is so wrong with using visual cues?
When your toddler is learning to walk, it's well know that
baby walkers aren't helpful - they make it too easy and
hinder development of the leg muscles.
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:22:26 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Tango For Her wrote:
> Feel free to start a thread on "The Frame". Sure, you
> can say that going through the practice of leading
> with no arms is still a frame.
Oh, I'm not offering a counterpoint because I think
you're wrong in thinking that trying to determine what
I'd call the *minimal* frame is a worthwhile endeavour -
in a frame, less is more; having a conversation
isn't exactly more pleasant when you shout.
But speaking softly isn't the same as shutting up ;).
In other words, I'm playing a bit on the semantics to crystallise
exactly what we all mean.
I just wouldn't want others to be left with the impression
that the absence of frame (as I'd define it - something
delimiting the freedom of movement of both partners so
that they can move together) is something to be excused.
I see an absence of frame (in particular, with the leader
moving to somewhere and expecting the follower to figure
out everything by divination, often because some move
"obviously" follows) more often than I see suffocating embraces.
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 00:35:17 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Tango For Her wrote:
> The intent is for the follower to follow my center, my
> chest.
Actually, from where I'm standing, it's an exercise in
*correct* framing.
The frame moves "desde el alma" (from the soul) - or should; the
chest moves and the rest of the frame follows (adjusting only
when you intend to change the space in which the follower is allowed
to move).
Your exercise is indeed a very good exercise to avoid people leading
with what they call "a frame" but really isn't one, when the end
points are dissociated from the "alma" and try to communicate
as autonomous agents, connected to the brain but not the soul
(and more prosaically the chest).
It doesn't only help leaders: do this exercise and the follower will
>from then on be acutely aware of any dissociated lead (and very
intolerant of it) when it's inflicted upon them. Some leaders
(the ones who want to learn and indeed "tango for her") will appreciate,
some others will not ;).
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 00:14:22 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Apologies for nit picking ...
There is no such word as proprioperception
The correct term is proprioception.
Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 12:43:00 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: jayrabe@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu
No apologies required!
Try as I might, I know I'll never be perfect.
I think it would be worse to NOT point out an error!
Thanks
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Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:57:54 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Suggested Lead
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I apologise in advance that this is off-topic, but I guess many
people, like me, have received a message from the List Owner asking
us not to include the whole of the previous message when replying.
I think the operative word here is ... 'whole'. Surely a part of
the message can be included otherwise some, like that below, make
no sense at all, unless we scour through previous posts.
Keith, HK
On Thu Jan 3 4:43 , steve pastor sent:
>No apologies required!
> Try as I might, I know I'll never be perfect.
> I think it would be worse to NOT point out an error!
> Thanks
>
