2289 Taking the blame as a leader
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:31:55 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Taking the blame as a leader
I agree with Carlos
Carlos wrote:
"Just be patient (for a few years), take your time, practice and listen
to what your partner(s) tell you. If you are a leader, then my strong
advice is:
Learn from now to take blame for all and any mistakes in the dance
floor".
"Even when you think or know that is her fault. The sooner you can do
this, the sooner your dance level will improve, when a follower tells
you that she did not understand the lead, then take it as a challenge
and think how you could have done it better, practice until she is
satisfied."
- - - -
My leader clearly just didn't have that attitude recently when *she*
repeatedly told me sternly: "See where I am? I'm way over here. You need to
take bigger steps to match mine." Hmm. I didn't feel her taking me with
her when she took those big steps. I didn't feel any lead, yet I was made to
be wrong.
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 23:34:58 -0800
From: Richard Guzinya <richard_guzinya@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking the blame as a leader
Axiom: The leader should accept responsibility for all mistakes.
Corrollary: If the leader doesn't accept responsibility,
the follower shouldn't whine about it.
By the way, what kind of a lead did you expect? The
leader to push you somewhere? As I understand it,
in simple terms, the leader leads by moving or turning
the body - the follower attemps to stay in front of the
leader.
Regards,
Dick
>From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
>Reply-To: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Taking the blame as a leader
>Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 19:31:55 -0800
>
>I agree with Carlos
>
>Carlos wrote:
>
>"Just be patient (for a few years), take your time, practice and listen
>to what your partner(s) tell you. If you are a leader, then my strong
>advice is:
>
>Learn from now to take blame for all and any mistakes in the dance
>floor".
>
>"Even when you think or know that is her fault. The sooner you can do
>this, the sooner your dance level will improve, when a follower tells
>you that she did not understand the lead, then take it as a challenge
>and think how you could have done it better, practice until she is
>satisfied."
>
>- - - -
>
>My leader clearly just didn't have that attitude recently when *she*
>repeatedly told me sternly: "See where I am? I'm way over here. You need
>to
>take bigger steps to match mine." Hmm. I didn't feel her taking me with
>her when she took those big steps. I didn't feel any lead, yet I was made
>to
>be wrong.
Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S.
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:17:57 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Taking the blame as a leader
Well, it's all caught up in that 'should' isn't it?
In tango, I think a large part of the creativity, spirit, and ultimately
deep 'connection' between partners, comes from how we deal with it when what
'should' happen, doesn't.
> As I understand it,
> in simple terms, the leader leads by moving or turning
> the body - the follower attemps to stay in front of the
> leader.
I don't think this is true. The follower doesn't attempt to 'stay' anywhere,
except on their balance. They are led (or invited, if you like) to move by
the leader. The embrace or frame, formed by the leader and the follower
together, determines where the follower is in relation to the leader.
In certain forms of close embrace, the chest to chest contact(or belly to
belly, depending on your anatomy) is the main part of the frame. In this
case, the follower is led through that connection. But still, if the leader
takes a big step, but fails to communicate that movement through his upper
body, the follower will be left behind.
Summary there is not a sufficiently strong frame, used by the leader to
communicate, they can move or turn as much as they like, and the follower
will stay put.
Or at least, they 'should'....
just my 2c
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:27:28 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Staying close together (Was taking the blame as a leader)
With postings on top of postings, I can't figure out who originally
wrote:
"As I understand it, in simple terms, the leader leads by moving or
turning the body -
the follower attempts to stay in front of the leader.
>
In certain forms of close embrace, the chest to chest contact(or belly to
belly,
depending on your anatomy) is the main part of the frame. In this case,
the follower is
led through that connection. But still, if the leader takes a big step,
but fails to
communicate that movement through his upper body, the follower will be
left behind."
Up to now, I haven't read anything about the importance of the man's
right arm, so I'll do so.
For close embrace, it's very important that the woman fit tightly into
the crook of the man's right
elbow. I have found that unless the woman is in there, she can slide
along the man's right
arm without really feeling where she is supposed to be. Being in the
crook of the elbow "cements"
the woman's location relative to her partner. One of the reasons open
boxes are lead so terribly
is that the man doesn't keep the woman close to his chest. As he starts
to go around the woman,
unless the woman is snugly fit into the crook, the man will begin to move
backwards without the woman. Eventually, he will pull (not lead) the
woman forward and she will feel like she's being swept off
her feet.
The man's right elbow is like guardrail on a highway. Guardrail is
supposed to prevent a car from
going off the road into a ditch. The right elbow keeps the woman firmly
in place, against the
man's chest. In the posting above, if the woman isn't firmly attached to
the man's chest,
she can't feel the size of the man's steps (big or small).
Since I like trains, I'll compare close embrace to running a train. An
excellent engineer will run the train
"with the slack run out." This means that the couplers between the cars
are fully extended
so the cars aren't slamming into each other and then separating from each
other.
Passengers aren't jolted forwards and then backwards.
The right arm keeps the woman near the man and serves as a receiver of
information from the
woman. The man can feel which foot the woman is standing through the
right arm.
Maybe now I can go back to sleep.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Only three more weeks to the marathon (tango, not running)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 07:34:43 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking the blame as a leader
> I don't think this is true. The follower doesn't
>attempt to 'stay' anywhere, except on their balance.
As someone who both leads and follows I feel this
little dispute about who is at fault very keenly - I
guess it must always be me. :-)
I think it's better, truly, if something goes wrong,
to ask yourself what you did that contributed to the
problem (assuming you're in a position to work on it,
of course). So, if I lose the follower when I'm
leading, I ask myself if I'm letting my right arm go
slack, if I'm barging ahead feet first without giving
a (chest) lead, if I'm actually turning my chest away
from where I want the follower to go rather than
towards that place, if I'm turning my body in such a
way as to block her passage to where I need her, etc.
When following, if I get behind the leader, I ask
myself if I can feel the lead any sooner, if I can
place myself more precisely in front of the leader's
chest, and if I can propel myself to where I am led
more efficiently.
And what Dick says is quite right, in this regard -
the follower should make an effort to stay in front of
the leader, and to put herself there in response to
the lead, ideally landing on a beat. This is, I
think, especially important to stress at a certain
point in the follower's learning (the sooner the
better, really). In my experience "wait for the lead"
was stressed so hard by my instructors that I was
quite surprised, several months into trying to learn
tango, to hear that I was supposed to get myself to my
next position by my own efforts. I somehow understood
"wait for the lead" to mean "wait for the leader to
move you" - and I tell you, I found things to go an
awful lot more smoothly whan someone finally managed
to convey to me that the lead was an indication only
and that I needed to move myself.
Cheers!
Marisa
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:02:07 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Staying close together (Was taking the blame as a leader)
Michael B Ditkoff wrote:
"The right arm keeps the woman near the man and serves as a receiver of
information from the woman. The man can feel which foot the woman is
standing through the right arm."
Not me. I feel my partner's feet with my torso. Right arm _helps_ to
maintain the connection. However it is not necessary at all. Good follower
is quite capable to keep herself near the man.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
>Reply-To: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Staying close together (Was taking the blame as a
>leader)
>Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 04:27:28 -0500
>
>With postings on top of postings, I can't figure out who originally
>wrote:
>
>"As I understand it, in simple terms, the leader leads by moving or
>turning the body -
>the follower attempts to stay in front of the leader.
> >
>In certain forms of close embrace, the chest to chest contact(or belly to
>belly,
>depending on your anatomy) is the main part of the frame. In this case,
>the follower is
>led through that connection. But still, if the leader takes a big step,
>but fails to
>communicate that movement through his upper body, the follower will be
>left behind."
>
>Up to now, I haven't read anything about the importance of the man's
>right arm, so I'll do so.
>For close embrace, it's very important that the woman fit tightly into
>the crook of the man's right
>elbow. I have found that unless the woman is in there, she can slide
>along the man's right
>arm without really feeling where she is supposed to be. Being in the
>crook of the elbow "cements"
>the woman's location relative to her partner. One of the reasons open
>boxes are lead so terribly
>is that the man doesn't keep the woman close to his chest. As he starts
>to go around the woman,
>unless the woman is snugly fit into the crook, the man will begin to move
>backwards without the woman. Eventually, he will pull (not lead) the
>woman forward and she will feel like she's being swept off
>her feet.
>
>The man's right elbow is like guardrail on a highway. Guardrail is
>supposed to prevent a car from
>going off the road into a ditch. The right elbow keeps the woman firmly
>in place, against the
>man's chest. In the posting above, if the woman isn't firmly attached to
>the man's chest,
>she can't feel the size of the man's steps (big or small).
>
>Since I like trains, I'll compare close embrace to running a train. An
>excellent engineer will run the train
>"with the slack run out." This means that the couplers between the cars
>are fully extended
>so the cars aren't slamming into each other and then separating from each
>other.
>Passengers aren't jolted forwards and then backwards.
>
>The right arm keeps the woman near the man and serves as a receiver of
>information from the
>woman. The man can feel which foot the woman is standing through the
>right arm.
>
>Maybe now I can go back to sleep.
>
>Michael Ditkoff
>Washington, DC
>Only three more weeks to the marathon (tango, not running)
>
https://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 14:37:19 -0800
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Staying close together (Was taking the blame as a leader)
> Michael B Ditkoff wrote:
> "The right arm keeps the woman near the man and
> serves as a receiver of
> information from the woman. The man can feel which
> foot the woman is
> standing through the right arm."
--- Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
>
> Not me. I feel my partner's feet with my torso.
> Right arm _helps_ to
> maintain the connection. However it is not necessary
> at all. Good follower
> is quite capable to keep herself near the man.
Sorry Michael, i would have to agree with Oleh. If you
have to use your right hand to keep her close it's
probably because you are sticking your head forward
thereby pushing her away and pulling her close
simultaneously. Sounds like your chests aren't that
connected, perhaps if you turn your head to the side a
bit she'll have space to move in closer to you.
Robin
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 15:04:05 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Staying close together (Was taking the blame as a leader)
I am against anybody who is in favor, and I am in favor of anybody who
is against.
There I said it!
Just a little fun to sign off, I am going for Buenos Aires this week and
will be unsubscribing to the list temporarily.
Happy dancing and stay away from taco bell.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:47:40 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Taking the blame as a leader
Thanks Marisa for a thoughtful response - and an especially valuable one
from someone with a foot in both camps.
Tango is a cooperative dance. If either party is resisting this cooperation,
or is blaming the other for all problems, then at best it will be ugly and
uncomfortable. Especially at a milonga (as distinct from practice), everyone
needs to be trying to make it work - even if the other person is doing stuff
you find weird!
(BTW here I have used 'he' for leader and 'she' for follower - shorthand
only, no proscription implied!)
I agree that a follower needs to actively step to where the leader is
leading her - not wait to be 'put' there. I would express this as something
like 'if your centre is moved by the leaders embrace [or frame], step
cleanly, clearly and musically to the new centre'. It is a difficult skill
for a follower to learn the right balance between 'waiting for the lead' yet
not being a sack of potatoes that the leader has to shift. She also has to
learn to feel how far she is being asked to step or turn. This is
particularly the case with pivoting actions - feeling how much to use the
momentum provided by the leader to turn her lower body while her upper body
turns less, and how much to just allow herself to be rotated by the leader's
position.
However there are many occasions, especially in open embraces, where she is
_not_ being asked to step directly in front of the leader. In a very close
embrace, her chest will always be in front of his, but her feet may be being
led somewhere else by that same chest's momentum.
Hmmm, maybe someone can express that better than I...
Perhaps a better instruction, especially in open embrace, might be 'the
follower should attempt always to be in the centre of the frame' - ie not
fighting the frame on either side, or front or back, but stepping or turning
to stay in centre.
But overall, I think the key point for me is the strong and active
involvement of both people in the dance, with both actively trying to make
it good, whatever that takes! After all, we are trying to have a good
time...
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
it seems that around 02/03/04 2:34 AM, Marisa Holmes at mariholmes@yahoo.com
wrote (among other things):
> And what Dick says is quite right, in this regard -
> the follower should make an effort to stay in front of
> the leader, and to put herself there in response to
> the lead, ideally landing on a beat. This is, I
> think, especially important to stress at a certain
> point in the follower's learning (the sooner the
> better, really). In my experience "wait for the lead"
> was stressed so hard by my instructors that I was
> quite surprised, several months into trying to learn
> tango, to hear that I was supposed to get myself to my
> next position by my own efforts. I somehow understood
> "wait for the lead" to mean "wait for the leader to
> move you" - and I tell you, I found things to go an
> awful lot more smoothly whan someone finally managed
> to convey to me that the lead was an indication only
> and that I needed to move myself.
