1425 Talking during the dance
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:25:30 +0200
From: Bernd.Monitor@MMS.DE
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
>What is the list's opinion about talking during a dance?
>Lois Donnay
>Minneapolis
Dear Lois,
I like to talk during the dance, but I am not using my mouth for it.
-)
Bernd
Bernd Monitor
Eiffestr. 598 b.monitor@mms.de
20537 Hamburg
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:45:39 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
I like this response, Bruno!!!
Leaders - if you don't like your partner talking during a dance, how can
you let her know in a nice way? The reason this came up is that recently
I was told about a leader who tells a woman who talks during the dance
to "Don't talk". I think somewhere he was given permission to say this
by the "rules of tango". (This isn't extended conversation, BTW. What
the women were saying was, in one instance "Please don't lead that, it's
not comfortable" and in another "I don't understand what you want me to
do".)
I've been "nominated" to tell him that we don't think he should do this
anymore, but I don't want to hurt his feelings or upset him. However, he
did hurt the feelings of the women to whom he said this. (They are
fairly new to tango)
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis
>
> >What is the list's opinion about talking during a dance?
>
> >Lois Donnay
> >Minneapolis
>
>
> Dear Lois,
>
> I like to talk during the dance, but I am not using my mouth for it.
>
> -)
> Bernd
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:41:16 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
> I was told about a leader who tells a woman who talks during the dance
> to "Don't talk". I think somewhere he was given permission to say this
> by the "rules of tango". (This isn't extended conversation, BTW. What
> the women were saying was, in one instance "Please don't lead that, it's
> not comfortable" and in another "I don't understand what you want me to
> do".)
>
What did Tom Stermitz write a while ago ? Teaching on the dance floor is
just one form of male powerplay? What this leader here seems to do, sounds
like the ultimate in power play: abusing the rules of tango to justify and
get away with his own selfish behaviour. Or does he tell her to shut up and
then oblige to her requests at least ?
Was it also Tom who wrote a while ago, that some men mistakenly think, that
tango is a dance made for men so that they have a chance to order women
around ? (and that part of the fun is, that the woman has to follow ALL of
the time ?)
Well, whatever, let me get off this unpalatable subject.
Actually, what I had meant to write before Lois revealed the motives behind
asking her question:
Yes, talking takes away from the dance experience, and vastly, at times.
But:
What about whistling ?
On Sunday I danced with a Japanese-Argentine (originally 50% Okinawan, now
over here from Argentina as a soccer pro). We got into such interplay with
our feet, intricate little moves, communicating with each other and enjoying
the music, that after a while he had me grinning into his ear with abandon.
Then he started whistling....along with the music. To me, this was a sign
that he was enjoying himself as vastly as I did. Great fun.
So, uh, as another question put forth to the tango ethics committee: Is
whistling ok ?
Astrid ; )
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 11:42:39 -0400
From: Alan McPherron <mcph+@PITT.EDU>
Subject: Talking during the dance
There's an old anecdote:
Woman: "Hey, I'm talking to you!.
Man: "You may be talking, but I'm dancing!"
Alan McPherron, Tangueros-Unidos de Pittsburgh
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 14:50:49 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
Friends,
Nice thought, Bernd.
I never talk to Lois when we dance. With our sweet, clear connection
there's absolutely nothing to add. But with other partners there may not be
that lovely calm where we feel each other's breath and pulse. In that case
what's left? Most likely, a bunch of problems! For example, somebody in
the couple doesn't seem to hear the beat or the phrasing or any music at all
(especially obvious if she's talking). Or, somebody in the couple is
nervous as a racehorse. Or somebody in the couple doesn't feel as if she's
dancing unless she's being 'pushed'. Or, maybe she has an agenda or issues
of some kind. These problems are, of course, the leaders fault (!) thus it
is the leader's prerogative to try to correct them.
If one obviously can't communicate with one's bodies, THEN... Why put on
airs or go into denial? Why not hum, or sing or even talk to try to get
together? IMHO it's better than stoic suffering 'within the rules'. Maybe
the NEXT song will go better and you can enjoy the music together in
silence.
...just keep it movin' down the LOD!
Frank - Mpls.
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:40:09 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
> There's an old anecdote:
>
> Woman: "Hey, I'm talking to you!.
> Man: "You may be talking, but I'm dancing!"
>
May I summarise what happened:
Woman says:"Please don' lead that, it's not comfortable."
Man: "Don't talk."
Man ignores what she said, goes on doing the same thing.
Another woman asks tango-l whether this is behaviour ok.
Several men chime in: "There is an old quote: You may be talking but I am
dancing. So what he is saying, is just the same like what this great old
Argentine did in 19...".
Great, you guys. The world has not changed, has it ?
Astrid
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 01:43:52 +0200
From: Peter Bengtson <peter.bengtson@MUSIKELIT.NU>
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
Astrid wrote:
> May I summarise what happened:
> Woman says:"Please don' lead that, it's not comfortable."
> Man: "Don't talk."
> Man ignores what she said, goes on doing the same thing.
> Another woman asks tango-l whether this is behaviour ok.
> Several men chime in: "There is an old quote: You may be talking but I
> am
> dancing. So what he is saying, is just the same like what this great
> old
> Argentine did in 19...".
>
> Great, you guys. The world has not changed, has it ?
No, in that respect it hasn't. A good follower still knows that a good
leader wouldn't lead the 'uncomfortable' steps -- at least not more
than once -- because he would sense that it is awkward for the woman.
Talking has very little to do with this particular situation.
Communication, on the other hand, has. Communication of the non-verbal
kind.
/ Peter
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:14:02 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: talking during the dance
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:41:16 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
> I was told about a leader who tells a woman who talks during the dance
> to "Don't talk". I think somewhere he was given permission to say this
> by the "rules of tango". (This isn't extended conversation, BTW. What
> the women were saying was, in one instance "Please don't lead that, it's
> not comfortable" and in another "I don't understand what you want me to
> do".)
>
At first glance, this bit seems that man acted incredibally rude.
But we should keep in mind how little information we have.
Here is a fictional story that would include the conversation above, but
from a different perspective:
Omar, one of the nicer profesional dancers from Argentina, sees a pretty
young woman that is dancing. His english is not that good, but he wants to
dance with her, so he goes up and says "Tango?" She nods her yes, gets up
and they begin to dance.
In the course of his dance, he does drags her foot.
The woman, never having done this before, and being a bit stiff, does not
bend her knee.
This is of course awkward, and uncomfortable.
He sees, this, and wants her to do it right, so he repeats the dance step.
Then she says something he does not understand, and he replies
"Dont Talk", but does not remember the english word for "inglis".
He continues to try and get her to do the step right, eventually giving up.
While I was not there, that is at least one possibility of the full story.
It is not neccesary for the man to be a rude fellow at all. Yes, it is
quite likely that the man was just being very rude, and not likely that this
story is true, but do not be so quick to judge.
P.S. I have never seen a man dance with a woman in such a way as to force
her to do something uncomfortable. I am sure it is possible, but it would
in fact look very ugly and people would stop and say "How can they dance
with her in a full nelson????"
I have however seen a situation where a man leads a certain step, and the
women try to follow it but once she steps where she thought he meant her to
go, find out it is uncomfortable.
You can do one of three things when that happens.
1) Assume the guy was trying to hurt you, get angry, and possibly walk away
in the middle of the floor.
2) Repeat the same step that you KNEW was going to be uncomfortable and
suffer again.
3) Assume you misread the lead, and the next time he leads that, do NOT step
in the same place, instead pick another place. Maybe try going backwards
instead of forwards. If you have to, open the embrace a bit. Let go of the
death grip you have on his right hand that is currently cutting off his
circulation. (If you watch the fancy shows, notice how occasionally they
actually BREAK the embrace? Ever watch Moira and Javier in NYC? If they
tried to maintain the embrace for all their dance, they would come away with
two broken arms.) Or simply stand still and wait for the guy to realize his
mistake.
I strongly suggest that you do option 3. It is by far the best solution.
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 21:56:49 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: talking during the dance
Wow, Mr. Coleman - I think you have a great future in the Public
Defender's office!!
OK, more info. The gentleman speaks perfect English, as does his
partner. He was trying to lead traspie in a milonga, something she had
never heard of. I guess it was her decision that it was uncomfortable.
Gentlemen, if you cannot see a bad lead and an uncomfortable partner
from the sidelines, ask a lady to help you watch for these. Sometimes
it's easy for beginners to be swayed by showy dancing that really is no
fun for the woman.
Sergio brings up a good point - why is there a "rule" against talking?
Is there? Who decided?
My mother always said the rudest behavior is to point out other's
rudeness. If I can point out to this guy that there is no such rule,
maybe he'll be less rude to his followers. In any case, I'm sure I'll be
in trouble again!
Lois "Defender of the Follower" Donnay, Minneapolis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of A Coleman
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 3:14 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] talking during the dance
>
>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:41:16 +0900
> From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
> Subject: Re: Talking during the dance
>
> > I was told about a leader who tells a woman who talks
> during the dance
> > to "Don't talk". I think somewhere he was given permission
> to say this
> > by the "rules of tango". (This isn't extended
> conversation, BTW. What
> > the women were saying was, in one instance "Please don't
> lead that, it's
> > not comfortable" and in another "I don't understand what
> you want me to
> > do".)
> >
>
> At first glance, this bit seems that man acted incredibally rude.
> But we should keep in mind how little information we have.
>
> Here is a fictional story that would include the conversation
> above, but
> from a different perspective:
>
> Omar, one of the nicer profesional dancers from Argentina,
> sees a pretty
> young woman that is dancing. His english is not that good,
> but he wants to
> dance with her, so he goes up and says "Tango?" She nods her
> yes, gets up
> and they begin to dance.
> In the course of his dance, he does drags her foot.
> The woman, never having done this before, and being a bit
> stiff, does not
> bend her knee.
> This is of course awkward, and uncomfortable.
> He sees, this, and wants her to do it right, so he repeats
> the dance step.
> Then she says something he does not understand, and he replies
> "Dont Talk", but does not remember the english word for "inglis".
> He continues to try and get her to do the step right,
> eventually giving up.
>
> While I was not there, that is at least one possibility of
> the full story.
> It is not neccesary for the man to be a rude fellow at all.
> Yes, it is
> quite likely that the man was just being very rude, and not
> likely that this
> story is true, but do not be so quick to judge.
