1908  Tango - gender - sexroles

Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:08:20 +0200
From: Melina Sedo <melinasedo@ONLINEHOME.DE>
Subject: Tango - gender - sexroles

Hi all,

Sergio wrote:
"There are cultures where to talk about sex or body functions, or the
use of
certain words make people very uncomfortable such as in the USA.
There are other cultures where conversation on those subjects is
socially
acceptable and discussion is done routinarily in proper form.
This was obvious recently when Antonio Cervila Jr. attempted to
discuss
sex , psychoanalysis and tango. He was not only misunderstood but also
ridiculed and attacked. I personally think that sex, gender role,
psychoanalysis and tango could be extremely interesting subjects."

Well, you're right.
Refering to sex in the context of Tango is thought to be vulgar. Even
mentioning that in Tango (like any other field where people meet) there
may be possibilities to find a partner for bed or life does seem to be a
sacrileg to this highly intellectual and spiritual dance.

I wrote my psychological dissertation about "Sex roles in Argentine
Tango".
Therefore I developed a questionnaire which was distributed all over
Germany containing questions about the ideal tango dancer (male or
female), the tango etiquette and the numerous reasons why people dance
tango... (In addition to that in contained a german version of Bem's
sex-role-inventory.)
And guess what: Altough in Germany a lot of singles are dancing tango
(in my poll: 100 of 170) the connection between Tango, sexuality and
finding a partner is not a strong one:
71,1 % of the questioned people do renounce the possibility of finding a
partner in the tango contect.
But: For 41,2 % Tango also means passion and erotics. May this be only
the passion of the Tango shows?

Funny, funny: there are this places where you get in a real close
contact to sexual compatible people, where erotic experiences can be
made. But: do not dare mentioning to a men or woman that you are
interested to share this intimacy in bed! No one will dance with you any
longer! ;-)

Women coming from holidays in Buenos Aires often mention the frequency
of men trying to get friendly to them and one of the most important
themes in argentine Milongas seems to be the relations between men and
women. And: Tango lyrics mostly refer to men and women! But we
non-argentine only speak of tango! ;-)

Cultural differences? Social differences?
In Europe, USA and other non-argentine places tangueros and tangueras
seem to be mostly people with high school or university degree. In my
poll 136 of 170 tangueros had high school and 125 of them university
degree..
Well, most of the argentine tango-dancers coming to teach in Europe and
the milongueros in Buenos Aires are no university graduates. And their
approach to Tango and sexuality seems to be a little more relaxed than
ours, does it not?

Will I be tared and feathered now??? ;-)))

Melina

Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:07:31 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango - gender - sexroles

Melina Sedo

>

Refering to sex in the context of Tango is thought to be vulgar.
<

Well, there is sex/uality in tango and the sex precipitated by tango. To
speak eloquently of the former requires (in my so-called humble opinion) the
right touch. As to the latter, fine, but I feel it is wise not to advertise
it too loudly. (Lest there be less of it later?) Most people are wise enough
to chose where, if at all. Now, Melina is studying it academically. That is
different. No kiss and tell, or methinks thou talkest too much. Hi Melina
Johnson-Masters!

Cheers,

Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:38:22 -0400
From: Antonio Cervila Junior <junior@CERVILA.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - gender - sexroles

Here comes again. The untalkable "theme".
I will not talk about my university degrees beside my dancer career, but as
I could understand in your e-mail, the european tangueros are more
intelectual than sexual. And in Argentina, the opposite.
Interest, but I rather be an ignorant then.
Maybe some intelectual people forget their feeling about sex when they live
thing about work, money, mortgage, money, business, money, bla bla bla.
In your questionnaire you said: 71,1 % of the questioned people do renounce
the possibility of finding a
partner in the tango contect. So, what is the reason that most of German
people start dancing tango?
And for me, sexuality is not (as you say in your e-mail) the possibilities
to find a partner for bed or life. It is beyond that.

Thanks

Junior





----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 6:08 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango - gender - sexroles

> Hi all,
>
> Sergio wrote:
> "There are cultures where to talk about sex or body functions, or the
> use of
> certain words make people very uncomfortable such as in the USA.
> There are other cultures where conversation on those subjects is
> socially
> acceptable and discussion is done routinarily in proper form.
> This was obvious recently when Antonio Cervila Jr. attempted to
> discuss
> sex , psychoanalysis and tango. He was not only misunderstood but also
> ridiculed and attacked. I personally think that sex, gender role,
> psychoanalysis and tango could be extremely interesting subjects."
>
> Well, you're right.
> Refering to sex in the context of Tango is thought to be vulgar. Even
> mentioning that in Tango (like any other field where people meet) there
> may be possibilities to find a partner for bed or life does seem to be a
> sacrileg to this highly intellectual and spiritual dance.
>
> I wrote my psychological dissertation about "Sex roles in Argentine
> Tango".
> Therefore I developed a questionnaire which was distributed all over
> Germany containing questions about the ideal tango dancer (male or
> female), the tango etiquette and the numerous reasons why people dance
> tango... (In addition to that in contained a german version of Bem's
> sex-role-inventory.)
> And guess what: Altough in Germany a lot of singles are dancing tango
> (in my poll: 100 of 170) the connection between Tango, sexuality and
> finding a partner is not a strong one:
> 71,1 % of the questioned people do renounce the possibility of finding a
> partner in the tango contect.
> But: For 41,2 % Tango also means passion and erotics. May this be only
> the passion of the Tango shows?
>
> Funny, funny: there are this places where you get in a real close
> contact to sexual compatible people, where erotic experiences can be
> made. But: do not dare mentioning to a men or woman that you are
> interested to share this intimacy in bed! No one will dance with you any
> longer! ;-)
>
> Women coming from holidays in Buenos Aires often mention the frequency
> of men trying to get friendly to them and one of the most important
> themes in argentine Milongas seems to be the relations between men and
> women. And: Tango lyrics mostly refer to men and women! But we
> non-argentine only speak of tango! ;-)
>
> Cultural differences? Social differences?
> In Europe, USA and other non-argentine places tangueros and tangueras
> seem to be mostly people with high school or university degree. In my
> poll 136 of 170 tangueros had high school and 125 of them university
> degree..
> Well, most of the argentine tango-dancers coming to teach in Europe and
> the milongueros in Buenos Aires are no university graduates. And their
> approach to Tango and sexuality seems to be a little more relaxed than
> ours, does it not?
>
> Will I be tared and feathered now??? ;-)))
>
> Melina
>
>

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 00:22:13 -0400
From: Antonio Cervila Junior <junior@CERVILA.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - gender - sexroles

> A major part of German tangueros are computer specialists. Some of them

say,

> tango is the same, sqares, triangles, connection points... And they want

to

> touch somebody after spending all day in front of the screen.
>

Touch somebody after work does not have anything to be with sexuality?

By the way. I have computer analisis degree and I found a very good method
to teach these kind of people. But I always say that if tango was only
squares and triangles, any robot could dance or any computer program could
be a choregrapher. After having these squares and triangles only black or
white, you have to put curves, smoke, grayscales, colours, liquid and soul.
Otherwise you only doing steps. That's not dancing.

;-)

Junior

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 05:45:49 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango - gender - sexroles

Astrid berated me privately for "being nasty to Melina". I was wholly at a
loss even about which Melina she meant, but eventually I figured that it must
be Melina Sedo, in my previous posting under this heading.

In case Astrid is not alone, let me clarify: I meant literally what I said.
There is a sexual link in tango, as in dance in general, and art in general.
It is a subtle one, embraces and all.

Any intimate personal involvement, or like personal experience, resulting
from tango or a meeting in tango, is nobody else's business. I suggested,
with just a hint of a justification, that the wrong kind of talk about either
aspect can be a bit problematic. (Perhaps I am playing Chicken Little, but
that is how I have felt.)

I also said, and I meant it, that the kind of study that Melina reported is
nothing like idle talk, and I obviously very much approve of it.

The touch of humour of alluding to Virginia Johnson (Masters former
co-researcher, once married to him) was certainly not meant to be derogatory.
I trust that many L members know her name as a prestigious one in the
scientific study of human sexuality.

Cheers,

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:55:23 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Tango - gender - sexroles

Antonio Cervila Junior wrote:

>>A major part of German tangueros are computer specialists.

where did you get this from? It must have been a private message, I
checked the archives of the last days for the case I deleted something
too fast, but nothing there.
Fact is, there are no more computer professionals among the tangueros
than in the average population. In Melinas report, only 29% of the male
dancers had technical professions. If you take the users of mailing
lists, the percentage might be slightly higher, but the biggest german
tango list has about 500 members and this is not representative for the
many thousands of dancers in the country.

> Some of them say, tango is the same, sqares, triangles, connection points...

As far as I know, the theory of squares and triangles was developed by
argentinians like Naveira and Salas and not by german computer
specialists :). I don't believe they developed it for the purpose of
instructing the "patas duras" ;).

Andy
(dancing in Heidelberg, near to the biggest german IT company, SAP)

Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:37:44 +0100
From: John Ward <jmward@BUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango - gender - sexroles

Yes - in discussions of tango it seems to be all about art and intellect.
Only once have I ever seen anyone mention sex. It is in N.A. Numminen's
"Tango is my Passion":

"I myself feel passion while walking with my cheek against my partner's
cheek. Passion sometimes reaches excessive levels. My penis rises and
interferes with the dance. Then, especially in the countryside, I hasten
immediately after the dance into the woods, break off a little birch branch
and punish my penis with many sharp little blows. The chastisement makes it
calm down, and I can then go and invite a new girl onto the floor. In the
town I have to hasten into the toilet, take a special penis whip from my
back pocket, and lash the stiff organ with vigorous strokes. This makes it
calm down."


So ladies, if you have ever wondered why your partner dashes off immediately
the tanda has ended, now you know exactly what he is doing.

John Ward
Bristol, UK