4128 Tango initiation methods
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:13:30 +0200
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Tango initiation methods
For God's sake guys, that was just utterly childish!
No-one said, that what was going on tango-l before was "hogwash" (whatever
that means), just recently the dicussion was not SO interesting as this one
(tango styles thingy for the zillionth time, the slightly too intellectual
grammar and tango stuff). Also, I do reserve the right to be enthusiastic
about something and less enthusiastic about others. If you don't like that
use that delete button...
As for Tine's omitting of certain figures at a _crash tango course_ of 4
lessons: I do not believe that any one (including me) has any right of
critizicising her for that, as we do not know what the results are. If her
students do well and happy without them, then she is damn RIGHT. I was
merely asking for reasons, not justification. For instance I do know about
certain well known argentine masters teaching the 8CB including back step on
their hilariously expensive DVD, while that tool is widely critizised. Who
cares? The question always is: does it work. If yes, why? I also have the
professional pride to be efficient and have my students perform well at
tango, but I also want them to have fun. It's not that easy. In Hungary
80-90% of students don't learn tango to actually go to milongas and dance,
but just to have fun taking classes. They don't give a shit about how well
educated they are, the only point is that they want to have fun. If you set
the level too high, they'll quit or change teacher.
I am still interested in methods of what you start with... Any more?
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Sergio Vandekier
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 5:07 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango -L
>
> Aron says:
>
> Hi Tine!
>
> The first really interesting subject since quite a while on
> tango-l! :))
>
> To which Tine answers:
>
> Hi Aron
>
> " Thanks, I got back on the list a week or 2 ago but have
> been regretting it somewhat - it's the same old hogwash being
> recycled all over again.
> Evidently
> the list hasn't gotten anywhere new in the past half year.
> I'll probably not stay. Still, I'm here tonight."
>
> *Those of us that wrote something during the last week have
> the following choices, I returned one week ago to the USA and
> to the list.
>
> 1 - to apologize. Dear Aron and dear Tine we humbly
> apologize for writing
> about things that do not interest you and that are recycled hogwash.
>
> 2 - To remind everyone that this is a list to discuss any
> aspect of Argentine Tango, composed by over a thousand
> members coming from different countries, different cultures,
> different degree of knowledge and education, different
> dancing skill, different areas of interest and different needs.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:21:00 +0100
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Tango initiation methods, teachers, grammar, nuevo systems etc.
Who was it who said: those who delight in tango's simplicity show it in
their dancing - those who delight in tango's complexity show it in their
teaching.
Tango is simple. A blessing for dancers, but a curse for teachers who've
chosen the bulk-teaching lesson model, denying to them only medium
through which the fundamental simplicities can be communicated, the
medium of tango itself: touch. Instead they rely on visual demonstration
and verbal instruction, through which tango appears very complex indeed.
No wonder it is the minds and methods of such teachers that have become
refuge to just about every crackpot concept of tango imaginable. Notions
that despite being so unworkable as to be rejected from the dance floor
by the natural force of a thousand "No thank you"s, still manage to keep
an intellectual grip on their victims. And that then seek alternative
fulfilment through the only other available outlet - the tango classroom.
This debate has shown us many examples. From trying to teach back ocho
to novices who've not even learnt to pivot, but "never" teaching the
front ocho that is simply the same move reversed, to the "gems" of the
Grammar of Tango in its many varied forms, the believers in which seem
to be exclusively teachers.
Here's an example of tango grammar from a big-name international teacher
- a "method of teaching the eight types of gancho" (!). "Imagine the
obvious gancho on #3 of the basic. Now execute that at the same point on
all combinations of basic/cross basic, leader/follower,
normal/LR-mirrored, making 2 x 2 x 2 = 8. There - 8 types of gancho!"
I kid you not. More astonishing than the internal flaws (the types it
omits, and more importantly ones it includes but which you'd never want
to inflict on your partner except in kung fu) is the whole idea that
this is of any use whatsoever in teaching someone to dance. Here we have
a lesson that is about ten times more complex than the material it is
trying to teach. So much for tango grammar illuminating the essence of
the dance.
Why are so many teachers enraptured by notions that turn what is as
simple as riding a bike into something as complicated as piloting a
jumbo jet? Not least because someone who communicates the simplicity of
tango through the direct feeling of the dance itself is not called a
teacher, but a dancer. Neither the dancer or the dance delivers lessons,
but instead offers something far more valuable - genuine opportunity to
learn.
Beginners take note: if it feels wrong, it is wrong. If it feels like
nothing, it is nothing. And if it feels complicated, it is not tango.
Chris
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:43:14 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Chris' Tango initiation methods[..] - Post of the Year
This posting by Chris gets my vote. Tellingly no teacher was able to answer
the charges...
Seth
On 4/13/06, Chris, UK <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> Who was it who said: those who delight in tango's simplicity show it in
> their dancing - those who delight in tango's complexity show it in their
> teaching.
>
> Tango is simple. A blessing for dancers, but a curse for teachers who've
> chosen the bulk-teaching lesson model, denying to them only medium
> through which the fundamental simplicities can be communicated, the
> medium of tango itself: touch. Instead they rely on visual demonstration
> and verbal instruction, through which tango appears very complex indeed.
>
> No wonder it is the minds and methods of such teachers that have become
> refuge to just about every crackpot concept of tango imaginable. Notions
> that despite being so unworkable as to be rejected from the dance floor
> by the natural force of a thousand "No thank you"s, still manage to keep
> an intellectual grip on their victims. And that then seek alternative
> fulfilment through the only other available outlet - the tango classroom.
>
> This debate has shown us many examples. From trying to teach back ocho
> to novices who've not even learnt to pivot, but "never" teaching the
> front ocho that is simply the same move reversed, to the "gems" of the
> Grammar of Tango in its many varied forms, the believers in which seem
> to be exclusively teachers.
>
> Here's an example of tango grammar from a big-name international teacher
> - a "method of teaching the eight types of gancho" (!). "Imagine the
> obvious gancho on #3 of the basic. Now execute that at the same point on
> all combinations of basic/cross basic, leader/follower,
> normal/LR-mirrored, making 2 x 2 x 2 = 8. There - 8 types of gancho!"
>
> I kid you not. More astonishing than the internal flaws (the types it
> omits, and more importantly ones it includes but which you'd never want
> to inflict on your partner except in kung fu) is the whole idea that
> this is of any use whatsoever in teaching someone to dance. Here we have
> a lesson that is about ten times more complex than the material it is
> trying to teach. So much for tango grammar illuminating the essence of
> the dance.
>
> Why are so many teachers enraptured by notions that turn what is as
> simple as riding a bike into something as complicated as piloting a
> jumbo jet? Not least because someone who communicates the simplicity of
> tango through the direct feeling of the dance itself is not called a
> teacher, but a dancer. Neither the dancer or the dance delivers lessons,
> but instead offers something far more valuable - genuine opportunity to
> learn.
>
> Beginners take note: if it feels wrong, it is wrong. If it feels like
> nothing, it is nothing. And if it feels complicated, it is not tango.
>
> Chris
>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 04:45:40 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Chris' Tango initiation methods[..] - Post of the Year
> This posting by Chris gets my vote. Tellingly no teacher
> was able to answer the charges...
>
> Seth
>
Don't be so hasty to vote. It's only April.
Michael
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:30:58 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango initiation methods, teachers, grammar, nuevo systems etc.
>From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
>Tango is simple. A blessing for dancers, but a curse for teachers who've
>chosen the bulk-teaching lesson model, denying to them only medium
>through which the fundamental simplicities can be communicated, the
>medium of tango itself: touch. Instead they rely on visual demonstration
>and verbal instruction, through which tango appears very complex indeed.
While I agree with you on some points, I think you might be oversimplifying
things and devaluing the work of many conscientious people. Tango is simple
but it's not easy.... If it was easy, everybody would dance it right away
after seeing it for the first time without the need for any instruction. We
know that's simply not true... Not many people are willing to take private
lessons with a variety of teachers until they learn to dance. Group lessons
are quite useful and many people learn to dance tango in a group class
setting, calling them "bulk" lessons, cheapens and denigrates the concept.
>Why are so many teachers enraptured by notions that turn what is as
>simple as riding a bike into something as complicated as piloting a
>jumbo jet?
Yes, tango is simple as riding a bicycle, yet learning to ride the bicycle
is not so easy for many people. Some never learn.... Oh yeah, have you ever
seen the trick riders of BMX bikes or the trials riders? What they do is
simple too, but incredibly challenging and well beyond the capacity of 99%
of all bicycle riders.... Simple does not equal easy.... These simple skills
take lots of practice and instruction (albeit self instruction) to master.
It's the same with tango.
>Beginners take note: if it feels wrong, it is wrong. If it feels
Send
>nothing, it is nothing. And if it feels complicated, it is not tango.
Not necessarily true, your words are usefull to a point, but for a beginner
many things that are quite "right" in the tango dance will feel "wrong" for
simple lack of familiarity. Also, what feels complicated might indeed be
tango... Performing simple giros and ocho cortado can be terribly
complicated to a beginner... Just walking to the cross can be a challenge to
those who do not know how.
Respectfully,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:43:21 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango initiation methods, teachers, grammar, nuevo systems etc.
Sean here. I really liked Manuel's response to Chris -
kudos! I would like to add a note about learning
styles.
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
<snip> a curse for teachers who've chosen the
bulk-teaching lesson model, denying to them only
medium through which the fundamental simplicities can
be communicated, the medium of tango itself: touch.
<snip>
Chris has described quite clearly the Tactile or
Tactile/Kinesthetic learning style. A few days ago,
Sergio touched on a Visual learning style. It is
widely accepted that different people learn in
different, distinct ways. Tactile learners like Chris
have a definite advantage for learning tango. Visual
learners can learn from Videos. (Which are useless to
me.) Many people also need a verbal component in their
learning. They will not learn without it.
If you teach, and are not familiar with this concept,
Google "Learning Styles" and do a little research. And
for Chris and the rest of the tactile learners, don't
be too smug. The rest of the world never had to touch
a hot stove to find out it hurts. :O
Sean
