5708 Tango is Argentine
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:45:26 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Bettina says:
"Finally - as food for thought - I personally do ask why everyonethinks it is "Argentine" : much of the music
originates of the Black culture that was "imported" slave labor there at the time (rhythm),the bandoneon came from Germany (that much for the soul of a germanthat invented those kind of strings), and those compadritos for the most part were Italians and Spaniards (passion and nostalgia) . . .Most women in those bordellos were "imports" from Russia, Italy, Spainand so forth. There were actually only few "real" Argentines, as stilltoday those Argentines are missing a true identity as they areImmigrants for the most part (over 70%)."
Dear Bettina, Food for thought? I think that it is rather for an indigestion.
The music was composed by Argentines, born on Argentine soil, that music is a reflection of the Argentine culture. Most of the musicians were first generation Argentines, descendants of Italian Immigrants.
The music is soo Argentine that although musicians of almost every country have composed tangos, none of them sound Argentine, and you immediately recognize them as foreign. (Many of them are beautiful tangos, like Jealousy, composed by the Danish composer Gades).I have a colection of Turkish, American, japanese, Russian, French, Italian, etc, tangos.
If tango was the creation of 'Black or Europeans' it would have been born in Africa or in Europe, but it did not happen that way, it was created in Argentina, the only place, where it could be born.
The same way as Samba was created in Brazil, Cumbia in Colombia, Rumba, Bolero, Mambo, in Cuba, Fox-trot, swing, Blues, Country Western in the USA. Salsa in Puerto Rico, Merengue in the Dominican Republic.
Polka in the Czech Republic and Waltz in Austria. Fado in Portugal and Rebetika in Greece.
Each dance is a reflection of the culture that originated it.
The bandoneon came from Germany, (Bandoneon, by the way dear Bettina is not a string instrument), the guitar from Spain,the violin, the bass, the flute, the piano came from other places. You can put all those instruments and all the ones that exist in the world together in some other place than Argentina and Tango will not be created. The same as Jazz could not be created outside the USA. ( I mean originaly).
The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil. The women in the bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the tango. They danced with their clients.
Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
North Americans were also born on American soil, it does not matter were their ancestors came from, they were nurtured by a strong culture different from any in the world. A unique culture that originated some of the most interesting music of the world.
Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they are.
Summary: Tango is as Argentine, as the other music an dances belong to the cultures that originated them
Tango has a Universal appeal, that does not make it less Argentine.
Best regards, Sergio
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Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:00:15 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
One word jazz. Totally American in its' roots melded also a fusion music.
Ok two words rock and roll. Make that three and four bluegrass and blues.
All a product of fusions all distinctly American. Which is the definition of
cultural fusion being an immigrant based country.
That's why the tango is Argentine. It is what is known in the
ethnomusicological field as colonized people's music. The circumstances in
play to create each unique fusion would not have been present in any other
part of the world based on our history as a species. Consider it the musical
equivalent of Darwin's evolutionary concept.
_AJ
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, Tango-L
<a6baf9ab0908051425k3ed25658mcfc7d969037ada79@mail.gmail.com>
Sergio, I do not question that today Argentine Tango has its roots in
Argentina. But I nevertheless want to point out that in those days,
when the Tango originated, those "Argentines" were to the most part
Immigrants, speaking all the nationalities that nowadays Argentineans
seem proud to refer back to, Like Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia,
Poland and so forth. They cam in those days Tango was born as well. In
those days, this country was vastly empty and those foreigners were
lured by the upper classes to come to Argentina. It was those people,
mixed with elements they found in Argentina (the rhythm of the Blacks,
the knife fight elements in the steps of the gauchos etc),
What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
of the elements that developed in Tango.
Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
:-)
What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation in the upper
class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . .. shown by the rich boys
who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?
Sergio:
> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil. The women in the
> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the
> tango. They danced with their clients.
>
> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world
> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct
> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they
> are."
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 19:43:41 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Tango is Argentine
<a6baf9ab0908051543q4213afd7k6bf62edb44553e35@mail.gmail.com>
So maybe, rather than
call it Argentine it is in reality "colonized people's music and
dance" ? - finally, many of the lyrics are about those missed Loved
one's at home . . . " Who could sing that? An aching Italian having
left his family at home being shipped off to the end of the world and
have no money to come back home? What about acknowledging that Italian
in those lyrics . . . ?
in the conversation about identity and roots, isn't that still fueled
by the desire to still find identity - so, where is it? - isn't it a
rather human question of many people's being spread all over the globe
and separated - like as the Tango in Finland gives expression to that
? So the definition of "Argentinean by origin", mainly today, is
really a mix of "colonized people" that got "imported" based on the
idea - of the class in charge - to define the future of Argentina by
European standards, rather than their own Indian heritage, while the
true inhabitants of Argentina, just like in America, got killed off by
those perpetrators. So the question of "true identity" in Argentina is
a real question, especially in the younger generation. On the other
hand, what may be "truly" Argentinean today, maybe simply the very
fact of its very mix of many cultures into one melting pot.
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:17:11 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>, Sergio
If anything the sounds hold their largest roots in Spain and Italy and then
in the middle east and India. Germany is by far the most removed of the
influences. You hear much more the gypsy and flamenco influence than you do
a waltz or a polka.
Take this from someone who has studied music and its' connected cultures
for 25 years and after all it is a music first and a dance second. By the
way my mother having grown up in Argentina, the girls were more likely to
learn flamenco than anything else. Spanish culture with an Italian twist is
the predominant cultural trait. They'd all be eating brat wurst and goose
stepping were this not the case.
Like in the US there are infleunces and then there are dominant roots.
Mediterranean roots Europe are the strongest in Argentina.
-Adriel
> From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
> To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, Tango-L
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>
> Sergio, I do not question that today Argentine Tango has its roots in
> Argentina. But I nevertheless want to point out that in those days,
> when the Tango originated, those "Argentines" were to the most part
> Immigrants, speaking all the nationalities that nowadays Argentineans
> seem proud to refer back to, Like Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia,
> Poland and so forth. They cam in those days Tango was born as well. In
> those days, this country was vastly empty and those foreigners were
> lured by the upper classes to come to Argentina. It was those people,
> mixed with elements they found in Argentina (the rhythm of the Blacks,
> the knife fight elements in the steps of the gauchos etc),
>
> What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
> 50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
> passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
> danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
> clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
> of the elements that developed in Tango.
>
> Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
> certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
> originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
> :-)
>
> What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
> ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
> massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
> Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
> the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
> from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
> beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
> Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
> in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation in the upper
> class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . .. shown by the rich boys
> who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
> it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?
>
> Sergio:
>> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil. The women in the
>> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the
>> tango. They danced with their clients.
>>
>> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world
>> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct
>> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
>
>> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they
>> are."
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 19:43:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<61656.65.93.195.175.1249515785.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>
AJ wrote:
> Germany is by far the most removed of the influences.
Of course one understands what Al meant and I do not wish to quibble.
However ...
Herr Band's little "improvement" on his accordion, which became the pillar
and soul of the tango when it arrived in Argentina, ought to be a crucial
modifier in what his statement implies. Methinks.
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 17:49:34 -0600
From: "Nina Pesochinsky" <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
Hello, everyone.
Interesting discussion.
Is tango sensual? It can be, but does not have to.
Is it passionate? It can be, but does not have to, and does not need to be.
It is difficult at times to participate in something sensual or passionate
on cue.
I am convinced that this discussion and many others have been influenced by
an absence of at least two factors.
First, it is important to understand that throughout the century of
development of tango music and dance, women were valued much more than they
are now. Sorry ladies, but women are now dime a dozen and all are hungry to
dance. Those who know tango well as a dance, know that men created the
movements to please the women. The dance was created because of the women
and for them and in no authentic movement of tango, salon, milonguero,
fantasia, stage, etc., is the woman and her movement is secondary.
This factor is lost in the current tango experience of most. The quantity
of dancing women has devalued their presence for the men. As a consequence,
the social culture of the dance has sufferred. Neither men nor women
actually know experientially the emotional content of the dance at a time
where women were not so available.
The second important factor to consider is not just that there were many
European influences, but that tango actually belongs to the immigrant
culture (of Argentina), which is much different than the pure influences of
other, well-defined cultures.
Immigrants are different people, regardless where they came from. They
embrace and reject cultural values and rules according to different sets of
perceptions. Immigrant cultures remain illusive to those who do not belong
to them. Immigrants are a different kind of people, regardless from what
country they came from. They are different from those who remain in those
countries. I don't know if it is the psychological makeup, the personality
or the emotional content that makes immigrants different, but they are very
different.
We will never know what the immigrant culture of the time was in Argentina
and we will never know what exactly were the perceptions. But what is very
clear in tango music and dance is that the immigrant culture allowed people
tremendous creativity that may not have been nurtured by any one defined
culture. It is that creativity, that harmonious blend of many influences
that we feel now, dancing again and again to the same recordings a thousand
times. These things cannot be taken apart. The best that we can do is
honor the elements by acknowledging their influence and that is all.
All the best,
Nina
>> From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300
>> To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, Tango-L
>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>>
>>>> What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the
>> 50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it
>> passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially
>> danced together. To say that those women just "danced with their
>> clients" is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50%
>> of the elements that developed in Tango.
>>
>> Sorry about saying "string" I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner,
>> certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds
>> originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . .
>> :-)
>>
>> What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the
>> ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a
>> massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of
>> Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to
>> the "paris from the South" which I think in reality is a far cry away
>> from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such
>> beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly
>> Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted
>> in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation in the upper
>> class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . .. shown by the rich boys
>> who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so
>> it is not all and only that Argentine, is it?
>>
>> Sergio:
>>> "The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil. The women in
>>> the
>>> bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create
>>> the
>>> tango. They danced with their clients.
>>>
>>> Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the
>>> world
>>> but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a
>>> distinct
>>> and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other.
>>
>>> Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who
>>> they
>>> are."
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 20:05:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<61929.65.93.195.175.1249517121.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>
Nina's post was interesting to read. But, exasperating.
I hope other women (and men) don't believe it has currency.
I, of course, can only speak for myself. But I believe most men who can
dance tango reading her post would want - like me - to run grovelling to
every woman partner in the Universe protesting her every word about women
are a dime-a-dozen and all that.
Nina's view is her view.
It ain't that way at all looking through a man's eyes.
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 20:51:29 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tango would have been tango even on kazoo.
Guitar is considerably more Spanish than bandoneon at the root level of the
culture origin. Gardel is guitar based not bandoneon. That said bandoneon
like the secondary cultures did have an important impact in the following
tango eras.
As a general rule instruments do not make the style they are only vehicles
for expressing the style.
A-
> From: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>
> Reply-To: <keith@totango.net>
> Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:43:05 -0400 (EDT)
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>
> AJ wrote:
>
>> Germany is by far the most removed of the influences.
>
> Of course one understands what Al meant and I do not wish to quibble.
>
> However ...
>
> Herr Band's little "improvement" on his accordion, which became the pillar
> and soul of the tango when it arrived in Argentina, ought to be a crucial
> modifier in what his statement implies. Methinks.
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:15:32 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>>From the posts, it's amazing the number of tango perceptions that exist.
Each 100% correct. Please stand up the person who has the authority to
contradict any of them. There truly is a land of Oz.
Nina's post, like many others, absolutely makes wonderful sense. I just
cannot bring myself to accept her closing line - " The best that we can do
is
honor the elements by acknowledging their influence and that is all."
USA, the home of baseball! Practically in the DNA of every citizen. An
activity awash with the influence of immigrants from around the world. An
activity that eventually became appealing to other nations and cultures. The
country sent its best teachers to help the enthusiastic pockets of
practioners in these other nations. Over time the cultural imperatives of
the individual nations began to impinge on the activity. One nation felt it
was better to reduce the distance between the bases to accommodate their
dress code of long ground level robes. Another nation felt that the
symbolism of a double triangle could offend their religious beliefs, so
implemented a circular pattern of bases. Another banned the participation of
women, even as spectators. Yet another decided that using a hard ball was an
unacceptable risk and hence allowed only soft balls to be used. An
enthusiastic cricketing nation decided that already having a plethora of
straight faced bats, they would ban the use of round bats. Etc etc etc. But
the good news was that American baseball was everywhere! Call it nuevo
American baseball or the evolution of American baseball, with my cricket bat
under my arm, I'm off to the States to show 'em how to play ball!
PS: Any reference to places or cultures real or imagined is purely
accidental and fictitious and not intended to offend any progressives,
reactionaries, fanatics, purists or fundamentalists.
Anton
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 21:38:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60076.65.93.195.175.1249522717.squirrel@webmail3.pair.com>
AJ:
> Tango would have been tango even on kazoo.
Gasp
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 22:39:07 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<a6baf9ab0908051839v790c936bvc017dc4cf40c3a23@mail.gmail.com>
Nina, thanks for the shared view on the Immigrant factor.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:34:01 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Cc: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>, Sergio
Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
don't forget the eastern europeans who had enormous influence on the
music... particularly the virtuoso violinists, not to mention the many
eastern european lineage composers who gave us much of the music...
Ilene
AJ Azure wrote:
>If anything the sounds hold their largest roots in Spain and Italy and then
>in the middle east and India. Germany is by far the most removed of the
>influences. You hear much more the gypsy and flamenco influence than you do
>a waltz or a polka.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:03:03 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Which brings us back to my gypsy reference starting in India affecting the
Moors, melding with Jewish culture in Spain, up to eastern Europe and then
back, i.e. the spice trail.
_Adriel
> From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 12:34:01 -0400
> To: Adriel Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
> Cc: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>, Sergio Vandekier
> <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>
> don't forget the eastern europeans who had enormous influence on the
> music... particularly the virtuoso violinists, not to mention the many
> eastern european lineage composers who gave us much of the music...
>
> Ilene
>
> AJ Azure wrote:
>
>> If anything the sounds hold their largest roots in Spain and Italy and then
>> in the middle east and India. Germany is by far the most removed of the
>> influences. You hear much more the gypsy and flamenco influence than you do
>> a waltz or a polka.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 11:18:44 -0700
From: Norman Tiber <natiber@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine (AJ Azure)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
format=flowed
A. J. Azure?s iintriguing post regarding ?cultural fusion? in America
began with ?one word jazz.? IMHO, the odyssey should begin with ?one
word ragtime.?
In addition, it is interesting to note the similarities in
?circumstances? (i.e. influence of black music and large immigrant
populations) that led, during the beginning of the 20th century, to
tango music/dance in Argentina and ragtime music/dance in America.
Both set off a music/dance craze that spread around the world.
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:58:09 +0000
From: c.roques@mchsi.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
<080620091858.16533.4A7B27C0000CDEF900004095223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C0A9A9E019DD20C@mchsi.com>
<<<Which brings us back to my gypsy reference starting in India affecting the
Moors, melding with Jewish culture in Spain, up to eastern Europe and then
back, i.e. the spice trail.>>>
Regarding the origins, the trail is being traced back to ridiculous extremes with this line of thought and is missing Sergio's very valid point; that is wasn't so much the original Indo/European cultures that produced tango. It was the mixing together of these cultures once they were in the New World in a way that would not have happened back in the Old World. Tango did not come from those origins; tango is a New World product that came from Argentina. It is not a Sephardic or Indian folk dance. You can't just keep tracing back farther and farther. (The English language has roots in Sanskrit but that doesn't mean it is Indian.) If that were the case, you could carry this back to the Neanderthals and to the caves at Altamira (in Spain) and look for tangueros on the walls. Hybridization occurs because of several factors, but place and time (and timing) are probably two of the most important ones.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:16:09 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine (AJ Azure)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Yep!
> From: Norman Tiber <natiber@charter.net>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 11:18:44 -0700
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine (AJ Azure)
>
> A. J. Azure?s iintriguing post regarding ?cultural fusion? in America
> began with ?one word jazz.? IMHO, the odyssey should begin with ?one
> word ragtime.?
> In addition, it is interesting to note the similarities in
> ?circumstances? (i.e. influence of black music and large immigrant
> populations) that led, during the beginning of the 20th century, to
> tango music/dance in Argentina and ragtime music/dance in America.
> Both set off a music/dance craze that spread around the world.
>
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:22:38 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
We're talking musical origin not dance origin. Apples and other apples ;)
The musical reference serves the point that new influence mutated the form
so in that sense it's the dance but, if you refer back I was talking about
the music. No one is saying that IS Indian or gypsy but, you can identify
stronger flavors in a style of fusion. It's about studying grades of nuance
not slap in the face obviousness in the music.
-Adriel
> From: <c.roques@mchsi.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 18:58:09 +0000
> To: <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>
> <<<Which brings us back to my gypsy reference starting in India affecting the
> Moors, melding with Jewish culture in Spain, up to eastern Europe and then
> back, i.e. the spice trail.>>>
>
> Regarding the origins, the trail is being traced back to ridiculous extremes
> with this line of thought and is missing Sergio's very valid point; that is
> wasn't so much the original Indo/European cultures that produced tango. It
> was the mixing together of these cultures once they were in the New World in a
> way that would not have happened back in the Old World. Tango did not come
> from those origins; tango is a New World product that came from Argentina. It
> is not a Sephardic or Indian folk dance. You can't just keep tracing back
> farther and farther. (The English language has roots in Sanskrit but that
> doesn't mean it is Indian.) If that were the case, you could carry this back
> to the Neanderthals and to the caves at Altamira (in Spain) and look for
> tangueros on the walls. Hybridization occurs because of several factors, but
> place and time (and timing) are probably two of the most important ones.
>
> Cheers,
> Charles
>
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 16:34:24 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
<a6baf9ab0908061234q66075472se05c8f28f006ccf4@mail.gmail.com>
Thank you everyone engaged here in this quite enlightening and
humorous and interesting conversation! I get one thing from it - it is
not all as black and white as some folks may want to think it is,
Tango is a large mystery and it circles all around CONNECTION, union
in a greater sense, and we all know what that kind of bliss feels like
to be in total synchronicity God forbid out of the blue even with a
stranger that may not fit the bill otherwise . . . The very gift of
Tango, it is not to be analyzed as is, but to be experienced and
enjoyed, and I do believe, not to be owned, but honored. It comes from
the streets and has universal origin. It goes back out into the world.
So while some of us - or many - may be afraid it loses its essence if
we don't think of it so much as Argentine (like the Nuevo talk) but
rather a universal quality, who knows what comes of it, in terms of
art, expansion, evolution . . . yes there is beauty to the origin and
tradition, but also limitation, and we are in a changing world and
tango is evolvig with it . . or maybe we are evolving with more
discovery of tango . . .
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:48:24 -0400
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
Life and and the very nature of human culture is evolution and fusion. There
are very few bastions in the world left untouched. It's good to have a foot
in the old world and a foot in the new. Balance.
-Adriel
> From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 16:34:24 -0300
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
>
> Thank you everyone engaged here in this quite enlightening and
> humorous and interesting conversation! I get one thing from it - it is
> not all as black and white as some folks may want to think it is,
> Tango is a large mystery and it circles all around CONNECTION, union
> in a greater sense, and we all know what that kind of bliss feels like
> to be in total synchronicity God forbid out of the blue even with a
> stranger that may not fit the bill otherwise . . . The very gift of
> Tango, it is not to be analyzed as is, but to be experienced and
> enjoyed, and I do believe, not to be owned, but honored. It comes from
> the streets and has universal origin. It goes back out into the world.
> So while some of us - or many - may be afraid it loses its essence if
> we don't think of it so much as Argentine (like the Nuevo talk) but
> rather a universal quality, who knows what comes of it, in terms of
> art, expansion, evolution . . . yes there is beauty to the origin and
> tradition, but also limitation, and we are in a changing world and
> tango is evolvig with it . . or maybe we are evolving with more
> discovery of tango . . .
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 23:48:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
> From: "c.roques@mchsi.com" <c.roques@mchsi.com>
>
> Regarding the origins, the trail is being traced back to ridiculous extremes
> with this line of thought ...>
This has to be a first for Tango-L. Never thought we'd be discussing
whether Tango is Argentine or not ... Very strange!
Jack
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 20:59:28 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
"This has to be a first for Tango-L. Never thought we'd be discussing
whether Tango is Argentine or not ... Very strange!
Jack"
Maybe it's a case of whether it's still appropriate to refer to the tango as
mostly danced around the globe as "Argentine Tango".
Anton
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 05:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
> From: Anton Stanley <anton@alidas.com.au>
>
> Maybe it's a case of whether it's still appropriate to refer to the tango as
> mostly danced around the globe as "Argentine Tango".
>
> Anton
>
When I talk to Tango people, I'll just say 'Tango'. If I talk to non-tango
people I'll say 'Argentine Tango' to avoid confusion - they may think
I'm talking about Ballroom Tango or American Tango.
But I sincerely hope that, one day, the whole world will understand that
'Tango' means Argentine Tango..
Just as everyone understands that?the 'The Open' means the British Open
and 'The Derby' means the Ascot Derby and 'Football' means soccer ;-)
Jack
