5422 tango schizophrenia
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:12:43 -0500
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C702152821@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
And now for something completely different. Cant recall seeing this
discussed.
How does one move past mimicking influential icons and into the realm of
developing a unique personal style in tango, or any other art form? How
do you contribute something new to the tango?
I am severely afflicted with split personality. I want to dance Disarli
like Gustavo, Darienzo like Chicho, Piazzola and alternative music like
Sebastian, Pugliese like Osvaldo, Vals like Julio, and Milonga like
Javier. Help!! Is anyone ever anything but a mixed soup of those
artists they admire most? How do you break free ? Is it a futile and
maddening pursuit of perfection if you are not blessed with genius or
world class talent?
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:20:05 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
It is not advisable to try to dance like So-and-ao. Just dance all of them
exactly the way Martin expriences the music.
Eduardo Saucedo gives lessons on the differences on how to dance Pugliese
and D'Arienzo. SDo, if you need advice, watch or find someting on youtube.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 4:12 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
> And now for something completely different. Cant recall seeing this
> discussed.
> How does one move past mimicking influential icons and into the realm of
> developing a unique personal style in tango, or any other art form? How
> do you contribute something new to the tango?
> I am severely afflicted with split personality. I want to dance Disarli
> like Gustavo, Darienzo like Chicho, Piazzola and alternative music like
> Sebastian, Pugliese like Osvaldo, Vals like Julio, and Milonga like
> Javier. Help!! Is anyone ever anything but a mixed soup of those
> artists they admire most? How do you break free ? Is it a futile and
> maddening pursuit of perfection if you are not blessed with genius or
> world class talent?
>
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 12:51:18 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: tango-L@mit.edu
I think that with tango, as with life, it's about the journey - not the
destination.....I never think of being perfect - I constantly think
about getting better.....
My father described golf as a game that takes minutes to learn and a
lifetime to master - and that is very much how I think about tango...it
is chasing the elusive perfection that makes every night, every
partner, every dance, a new experience and challenge and, for me, that
is want makes it so addictive.
It seems that I hear from men - much more than women - that they want
to "dance like (pick a name or their instructor)...."; whereas women
usually talk about a particular step or adornment they have seen - is
that just me?
b
Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:25:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>, Tango-L
--- "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
> I am severely afflicted with split personality. I want to
> dance Disarli like Gustavo, Darienzo like Chicho,
Piazzola and alternative music like Sebastian, Pugliese
like Osvaldo, Vals like Julio, and Milonga like
> Javier. Help!! Is anyone ever anything but a mixed
> soup of those artists they admire most? How do you break
free ?
Or perhaps Gustave, Chico, Sebastian, et al are dancing
like you. :)
I'm glad that my original post wasn't accepted by the
moderator (I had left your entire message intact) because
it allowed me to change my post. Perhaps, Martin, you've
already developed your own style but are not aware of it.
I'd suggest checking in with your regular dance partners.
I bet they can sense your personal signature in all of
those dances.
There have been lots of times when I've danced with a man
and think "Aha! He's been studying with so-and-so
recently. This move feels just like so-and-so." Over time
that flashback disappears and that same move changes to
suit the man, rather than the other way around. Come to
think of it, my own male students all have different
signatures even though they go through the same training
with me, have the same dance partners, attend the same
workshops, and are all trained to lead the way I like to be
led.
Obviously, you're finding different things to like in each
of those dancers for different reasons. I'd suggest
continuing to explore those specific things. Is having one
particular attribute necessarily exclusive of having
another? Perhaps one attribute becomes more appealing than
the other and you can start focusing on what's more
important to you. Sometimes, certain physical realities
can bring about some focus, as well.
So, don't worry too much, and enjoy the process.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:11:52 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "'Nussbaum, Martin'" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>, "tango-l@mit.edu"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643C22@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Martin>How does one move past mimicking influential icons and into the >realm of developing a unique personal style in tango,
'Style' is a much misused word just like 'milonguero', so this is a discussion fraught with danger. They are both tainted with their use as marketing terms and at the end of the day all you can really measure is what works to make a nice dance for the follower and what does not, based on follower feedback. However I have been thinking about the S word a lot since a teacher from BsAs recently said to my wife and I that we have our own 'style'. What does that mean and is it a good thing? So here goes...
I don't think in Martin's post he is talking about style. What he is saying by contrasting the strong areas of Chicho, Julio and the like is just that every iconic dancer has their strengths and weaknesses. That is to be expected and is just like every other area of human endeavour. Take a group of leaders in a local community, for instance. They all get taught the same steps at the same time, but for whatever reason some seem to be able to do colgadas without a problem but just don't get it with boleos and then others are really comfortable in open but just don't cut it in close. So you see guys struggling for years to master the area in which they are weak. Say for argument's sake it is boleos. They get all worked up when they have to do one. They force themselves to do it. Through years of effort it eventually becomes textbook perfect, but is it enjoyable - no, because it is always going to be a little forced and unnatural. Arguably, the effort is wasted and they should j!
ust acknowledge what they are good at - some people are born sprinters and others are long distance runners. However I don't think this tells us anything about style. It is just a question of aptitude.
I was lucky enough to have a lesson with Milena Plebs on the weekend. I apologise in advance in case I misrepresent her, but this is my recollection of what she covered. She said a lot of interesting things and had a bit to say on the topic of developing your own tango style. At one point she said that there are many young professional dancers who can do way more complicated steps than milongueros, but the 'mysterious' quality which makes the old guys what they are is that if they execute the same step as everyone else, they do it in a way which is unmistakably individual to them. So she taught us a pretty simple sequence and then invited us by various suggestions to explore different individual ways of executing it. As she explained it (paraphrasing somewhat) a process of natural selection has to go on here fuelled by the leader's individual input. Critically, they can't get this from anyone else, it has to come from the leader him or herself according to Milena. She also s!
aid the whole style thing is a really subtle concept, so I doubt it is something that would necessarily be apparent from performances on youtube which are designed to be spectacular for visual effect.
I think professionals like performers, teachers and choreographers are actually at a disadvantage in some ways because they have to work on everything, develop spectacular routines and follow popular trends, not just develop what is required for a nice dance. My own personal goal is just to make a nice dance, so I choose not to think about style at all when I am dancing. I don't think it is going to do anything to get me a better score card from my follower. Instead I make some promises to my follower each and every time I get up to dance. The first promise is not to do anything that does not feel nice to the follower. That means accepting my own limitations and having the courage to drop things out of my dance if I can't get them to work or they feel forced. I can always try them again later after a couple more years :-). Secondly, I promise to try something new and unexpected every day. Some of this stuff won't work, but whatever is left over will be mine. Cool, now I just!
need another thirty years of dancing and I will magically have a style no problems ;-).
Victor Bennetts
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Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 18:21:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Martin>How does one move past mimicking influential
icons and into the realm of developing a unique
personal style in tango,
I believe the question was: "How do you create your
own style?"
I had my various private lessons and I studied from
videos. But, what really shaped me was 3 different
sets of private lessons, all with a focus and all from
different teachers and all in close embrace.
(1) The first set taught me to be dynamic. Lessons
included:
- She was my paint brush and the canvas my floor.
(Sorry, all! But, to this day, I still use it when I
feel like I am dancing a bit heavy and it works
wonders ... and, by the way, my partner is a
red-blooded woman whom I treat like a woman, not a
paint brush.)
- Another was to picture someone in the community who
dances large and dynamic and dance like him. (After
that one, she told me it's the best dance she ever had
with me.)
-In another, she told me, "You're afraid to touch me.
You're afraid to hold me. etc. (That broke me of a
bit of my shyness.)
- etc
After this set, followers commented that they had
never been so balanced.
(2) The second set taught me about tortion and dancing
like Chicho. He also refused to let me resolve
(finish) any patterns. For example, I couldn't go to
the cross. After that series, there were no more
patterns, unless you call turns patterns. At any point
in the dance, there was only the side, back and front
steps and the pivots and what I chose to do with them.
After that set, women commented that my lead was so
much fun.
(3) At the beginning of the third set, I told the
teacher that all I wanted to do was to be able to walk
to the music and have it be her best dance ever. She
was a master at tweaking the smallest things.
After that set, I was truly leading soft, passionate
tango.
After each of those sets, everyone noticed big
changes. After each one, I was told that I had
something unique that noone else had. So, MY advise
is to seek those "body mechanics", as I call them, and
know that they have a distinctive theme in mind for
your lessons.
If your partners don't see a huge change after your
set, consider trying a different teacher.
Also, consider that if you are being taught in open
embrace, or with a partner, that you aren't getting
the biggest bang for your buck.
If you want your style to emerge, put your chest on
the chest of a very, very, very good teacher and cough
up the bucks.
There are a slew of teachers out there. The trick is
to sort them out.
And, by the way, the teachers that build the biggest
communities, or have the most success in class, are
not necessarily the best for privates. They might be,
but not necessarily.
Good luck!
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:16:57 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "'Tango For Her'" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, "tango-l@mit.edu"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643C37@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
That is really good advice TFH, but those things are all about dancing well, not about developing your own particular style (whatever that might mean). If you are aspiring to develop an individual style, I think it is assumed you can already dance tango confidently.
Victor Bennetts
>>Martin>How does one move past mimicking influential
>>icons and into the realm of developing a unique
>>personal style in tango,
TFH>I believe the question was: "How do you create your
>own style?"
...
>(1) The first set taught me to be dynamic. Lessons
>included:
...
>(2) The second set taught me about tortion and dancing
>like Chicho.
...
>(3) At the beginning of the third set, I told the
>teacher that all I wanted to do was to be able to walk
...
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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 05:16:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
>
> That is really good advice TFH, but those things are
> all about dancing well, not about developing your
> own particular style (whatever that might mean). If
> you are aspiring to develop an individual style, I
> think it is assumed you can already dance tango
> confidently.
>
> Victor Bennetts
>
Actually, I have always been told, since those
lessons, that I have a style of soft tango that noone
else has (in the places that I have danced). So, I
was trying to relate that my style really did emerge
>from finding the right teachers and working on what I
wanted. Well, except for the second teacher who was
one of those geniuses (not just in tango) that you
come across once in a great while. So, anything that
he said, I wanted to hear.
I already danced well before the lessons. But, I
AFTER those lessons, followers always comment on my
style.
I am proud that my followers comment on how balanced
they are and the exactness of my lead. That came from
my first set of lessons.
I know that I am free from thinking in terms of
patterns. That was distinctly from my second set of
lessons.
I am extremely happy that I receive comments about the
softness of my tango. That was, most definitely, from
my third set of lessons.
So, my advice about developing your own style is to
find the greatest tango minds that you can, shell out
the bucks, put your chest on theirs in private
lessons, and do what they say!
Those lessons were close to 10 years ago. Good close
embrace private lessons definitely do have a lasting
effect.
... Actually, I if it is nuevo tango, exchange of lead
and follow, or something of that nature that you want,
then maybe the close embrace aspect wouldn't apply. I
am just saying that I developed the style that I
wanted through these lessons. The original posting
asked for examples.
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:17 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
>
> That is really good advice TFH, but those things are
> all about dancing well, not about developing your
> own particular style (whatever that might mean). If
> you are aspiring to develop an individual style, I
> think it is assumed you can already dance tango
> confidently.
>
> Victor Bennetts
>
Actually, I have always been told, since those
lessons, that I have a style of soft tango that noone
else has (in the places that I have danced). So, I
was trying to relate that my style really did emerge
>from finding the right teachers and working on what I
wanted. Well, except for the second teacher who was
one of those geniuses (not just in tango) that you
come across once in a great while. So, anything that
he said, I wanted to hear.
I already danced well before the lessons. But, I
AFTER those lessons, followers always comment on my
style.
I am proud that my followers comment on how balanced
they are and the exactness of my lead. That came from
my first set of lessons.
I know that I am free from thinking in terms of
patterns. That was distinctly from my second set of
lessons.
I am extremely happy that I receive comments about the
softness of my tango. That was, most definitely, from
my third set of lessons.
So, my advice about developing your own style is to
find the greatest tango minds that you can, shell out
the bucks, put your chest on theirs in private
lessons, and do what they say!
Those lessons were close to 10 years ago. Good close
embrace private lessons definitely do have a lasting
effect.
... Actually, I if it is nuevo tango, exchange of lead
and follow, or something of that nature that you want,
then maybe the close embrace aspect wouldn't apply. I
am just saying that I developed the style that I
wanted through these lessons. The original posting
asked for examples.
________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:27:52 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643C49@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
TFH, you may have your own style, but I don't believe people develop a style from taking lessons. Private lessons are great at helping you fix problems with your body, like if you are looking down and watching your feet while you are dancing, or not dancing with a straight back, or stepping inelegantly, or not leading with the chest. This is ensuring your body is actually moving in a way that is technically correct. I would call this the physical element of dancing tango.
The other thing you get from lessons is a repertoire of steps you can use, some guidance on how to fit them to the music and points on things like floorcraft. This is what I would call the intellectual element of tango. Style then is a third element and, in my opinion at least, something different to both of those other things. I should add that a categorisation of tango into these three elements is not an original thought of mine. I got this from a lesson with Hugo Daniels, but the rest of my comments about 'what is style' are all my own ;-).
Based on my observations, most people already have a distinctive way of dancing from the very first time they step on the floor. It is really amazing how in many cases this 'style' actually reflects their personality and is very revealing about them as a person. Sure, it evolves a bit as they work on perfecting their technique, increase their repertoire of steps etc, but if they started out as a solid dancer usually they stay a solid dancer and just get clearer and lose any wasted movements out of their dance over time.
By way of example, some followers I know are really earthy and grounded and dancing a milonga with them, for example, is great because they give you so much push back it is like you are spring loaded. Others are so precise and delicate always stepping delicately *here* or *there* in an ocho, for instance, so it really is like you are both dancing on little hearts. Still others love gently squeezing you to do slow sexy embellishments so dancing with them is a bit like flirting. And all of these tendencies seem to be established very early on from what I can tell.
To take one extreme example, someone who comes to tango after a long period dancing ballet in their teens is going to dance very differently from someone who has never danced before. They are going to tend to be turned out, for a start, which has an impact on the way they step and the way they feel. Also, a tall person's dance is going to be shaped in many ways by the efforts they make to deal with the issue of height difference to most partners, so this will impact their embrace and hence the way they feel. There was a thread a while back talking about how jazz drummers interpret music differently - another example :-).
So I apologise in advance to all the teachers out there, but these observations lead me to conclude that this ineffable thing we are calling 'style' actually has a lot to do with body shape, aptitude and attitude rather than what you may or may not learn in lessons.
Victor Bennetts
>>
>> That is really good advice TFH, but those things are all about
>> dancing well, not about developing your own particular style
>> Victor Bennetts
>>
TFH>Actually, I have always been told, since those
>lessons, that I have a style of soft tango that noone else has (in the
>places that I have danced).
Victor Bennetts
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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:50:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Well, all I can say is that I was lucky to have the
lessons that I had. Before those lessons, followers
would complement my dance in a rather generic way.
After each of those lessons, I got complements on very
distinct styles that had evolved. I absolutely did
not have those styles before the lessons and my
dancing is very distinct afterward.
So, let's just agree to disagree.
And, yes, while they were at it, they corrected things
like my posture.
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:56:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Actually, before those lessons my style was:
A gentle lead that was nice, but too light, not
dynamic enough, and a little playful.
Yaaaaawwwwnnnnnnn .......
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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:08:05 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 12:27:52PM +1100, Victor Bennetts wrote:
> To take one extreme example, someone who comes to tango after a long period dancing ballet in their teens is going to dance very differently from someone who has never danced before. They are going to tend to be turned out, for a start, which has an impact on the way they step and the way they feel. Also, a tall person's dance is going to be shaped in many ways by the efforts they make to deal with the issue of height difference to most partners, so this will impact their embrace and hence the way they feel. There was a thread a while back talking about how jazz drummers interpret music differently - another example :-).
>
> So I apologise in advance to all the teachers out there, but these observations lead me to conclude that this ineffable thing we are calling 'style' actually has a lot to do with body shape, aptitude and attitude rather than what you may or may not learn in lessons.
I agree that ones background and even body shape has a huge impact on style, I am 6'4 :)
I am personally under the impression that one should learn Tango like the great visual artists or even in terms of martial artists. That only out of disciplined copying of a master will you be able to then create your own style and add your own inspiration. Of course this does mean you need to choose your teachers accordingly. The couple that I am taught by both have ballet backgrounds and this is one of the main reasons I choose them. Both of their footwork is impeccable and attention to detail is something I truly admire. As one learns to copy I believe it opens up the doors to experimentation and inspiration. I realised that trying to do things my own way (at my current level) is actually self-defeating as really one is just encouraging bad habits or sloppy form justifiying it by saying it is "just my style." I think it is harder to copy someone else's style to perfection then just making up your own.
I do know though that since my background is in a music form far removed from Tango this comes out in my dance but I do keep it within the boundaries of what I learn from copying my teachers style.
Once I have mastered the foundational style I can then build upon it. I truly believe you need to choose foundational style, much like the martial artists and great painters and then out of that find your own.
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> one should learn Tango like the great visual artists or even in terms of
> martial artists. That only out of disciplined copying of a master will
> you be able to then create your own style and add your own inspiration.
Mash, I do wonder what could have lead you to this conclusion. Great tango
salon dancers do not learn by "disciplined copying of a master". They
acquire their own style through many years of dancing their own dance from
their particular feeling for the music.
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 09:16:40 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Chris,
By ... "Great tango salon dancers", I assume you're referring to the old
milongueros, who rarely give credit to any teacher and say they just learned
by dancing. If that is true, I'm sure it's simply because great teachers
were not available to them. All the younger great tango salon dancers always
give credit to their teachers.
I'm certain that by following his chosen method, Mash will end up as a far
superior dancer than one who follows your proposed method of trying to learn
Tango just by dancing. And he'll still end up with his own style, which, I
agree, he will develop by just dancing his own dance.
Keith, HK
On Wed Jan 9 20:40 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>Mash, I do wonder what could have lead you to this conclusion. Great tango
>salon dancers do not learn by "disciplined copying of a master". They
>acquire their own style through many years of dancing their own dance from
>their particular feeling for the music.
>
>--
>Chris
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:26:20 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 12:40:00PM +0000, Chris, UK wrote:
> > one should learn Tango like the great visual artists or even in terms of
> > martial artists. That only out of disciplined copying of a master will
> > you be able to then create your own style and add your own inspiration.
>
> Mash, I do wonder what could have lead you to this conclusion. Great tango
> salon dancers do not learn by "disciplined copying of a master". They
> acquire their own style through many years of dancing their own dance from
> their particular feeling for the music.
You have to learn to dance before you can dance. Before one steps in style; one steps.
It is better in my mind then to learn from somone who steps well.
Reducing it down... if a step say consists of how you rotate the foot, point the foot and then place the foot.
The style becomes evident. If I am taught to point my toe on the step then that is the style. I need to base my steps on some foundation so I choose the style which I feel is most pleasing. Thus if I want to incorperate a particular style I search out those who master it. Then by copying I start building a repertoire of skills to have as my foundation, in my case smatterings of ballet which I find quite beautiful when brought into Tango.
I think this coincides with the original post about someone wanting to dance the way a various number of dancers do.
I am not saying that we should become little mirrors of our teachers and remain. I am saying we should mimic those who know more then us and grow from that. My personality rebels against a pure "ballet like" style but if KNOW how to point my foot just right, then any deviation in terms of "free style" will always be in my mind controlled and polished. Foundation is key.
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 06:58:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Keith wrote:
"I'm certain that by following his chosen method, Mash
will end up as a far superior dancer than one who
follows your proposed method of trying to learn
Tango just by dancing."
So, you're CERTAIN that Mash will be far superior than
everyone in the world who learns tango just by
dancing? Damn! I want Mash's autograph! ;o)
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:04 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> the old milongueros ... say they just learned by dancing. If that is
> true, I'm sure it's simply because great teachers were not available
Fascinating theory, Keith.
We can only imagine how much better would have been the dancing of
everyone from Petroleo to El Chino, had they not been cruelly handicapped
by being born too early to benefit from the teachings of Gustavo Naveira,
Mauricio Castro and the like.
;) ;)
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:04 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> if I want to incorperate a particular style I search out those who
> master it. Then by copying I start building a repertoire of skills
I have to say this reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of this dance
and the process by which it is learnt. Copying the style of another does
not build a repertoire of skills. At most it builds simply a copy of the
style of another.
Tango dance style is not something that can "incorporated" from others. It
is an expression of the dancer's personality, developed from within.
Mash, as for your "copy someone else's style /to/ /perfection/" (my
emphasis)... well, after you've actually been dancing for a year or two, I
think you'll discover quite how little such "perfection" is actually
worth. Even and /especially/ as a means to an end.
--
Chris
PS A spirited ;) performance of Pacienca by Juan D'Arienzo and
Alberto Echag?e: https://youtube.com/watch?v=rXVgQA5_ByE (video 2m40s).
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:43:50 +0100
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
> We can only imagine how much better would have been the dancing of
> everyone from Petroleo to El Chino, had they not been cruelly handicapped
> by being born too early to benefit from the teachings of Gustavo Naveira,
> Mauricio Castro and the like.
>
What makes you think they didn't?
Just because they do not have a "master" or that they don't take lessons
directly, it does not mean that they are not copying elements, moves,
style, technique from others. In BsAs many dancers don't even know how
to spell nuevo, but that doesn't mean they don't USE it's benefits (and
of course most of them will never admit that there is any connection -
probably they don't even know or understand, because they can't care
less about exact classification).
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-24-071
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 16:57:21 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 04:04:00PM +0000, Chris, UK wrote:
> > if I want to incorperate a particular style I search out those who
> > master it. Then by copying I start building a repertoire of skills
>
> I have to say this reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of this dance
> and the process by which it is learnt. Copying the style of another does
> not build a repertoire of skills. At most it builds simply a copy of the
> style of another.
>
> Tango dance style is not something that can "incorporated" from others. It
> is an expression of the dancer's personality, developed from within.
>
> Mash, as for your "copy someone else's style /to/ /perfection/" (my
> emphasis)... well, after you've actually been dancing for a year or two, I
> think you'll discover quite how little such "perfection" is actually
> worth. Even and /especially/ as a means to an end.
I think it must be easier to think in terms of your own style after many years of dancing, I can understand that. But for somone like myself who has a year and a half experiance "choosing style" is not something one really has the ability to do so easily.
I totally agree with your point about how little perfection actually means in terms of the bigger picture, but I would say for some like myself, we get our confidence from knowning that we have placed our foot just right. Like knowning when you hit a golfball or tennis ball just right. It is at some level only when we are able to feel stable that then we can just relax.
But as always, each to there own and I think it is naive of anyone to think that there is a set way of learning as we all learn to learn in different ways.
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:08:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
What I see in what Chris and Mash are writing is ...
You observe others to learn and, in incorporating
other people's movements into your own dance, you
strive to "perfect" YOUR interpretation of YOUR
movements. As you "perfect" your movements, you are
working on your style.
In my private lessons, I am getting help perfecting my
movements and, therefore, working on my style.
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:26:09 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>, tango-l@mit.edu
'Mash wrote:
> but I would say for some like myself, we get our confidence from knowning
> that we have placed our foot just right.
If you're worrying about placing your foot "just right" after a year and a half
then in my opinion you aren't focusing on the essentials.
The foot follows the "alma". Its main function is one of (literally) support,
and if a foot is trying to show off it needs to know its place ;). Foot placement
first and foremost should be taken to enable you to move forcefully (i.e.
without ambiguity) and smoothly. The rest is style.
> Like knowning when you hit a golfball or tennis ball just right.
I don't think it's a good parallel. A good parallel would be wondering about what kind of
strings to put on your racket or what brand of clubs you're going to buy. If
you're already a champion you might need to worry about it, but it's not what's
going to make or break you as a champion.
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 17:40 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> What makes you think they didn't?
Because, as Keith said: "great teachers were not available".
The only historical evidence I've seen or heard of professional teachers
of social tango to natives of that time is of dance schools that served a
minority who had no family or friends to learn from and so had instead to
pay for lessons. As Sergio recently recounted on this list, though these
schools made a lot of money (especially from distance teaching based on
graphics and descriptions), the result was:
very few, would learn from this type of studio but generally speaking
those were the worst dancers and they had the characteristic of dancing
the same way.
Not much has changed, eh?
If anyone has any historical evidence of any teachers - great or otherwise
- of social tango prior to the (re)invention of Tango As A Foreign
Language classes in the 1980s, I'd love to hear it.
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 13:15:26 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Yes I guess it is only something that we can imagine.
But it surely can't just be coincidence that in the biographies of all of
today's great young tango dancers, they list their teachers.
Can anyone name a great, young, present day tango dancer who is fully self-taught?
Keith, HK
On Thu Jan 10 0:04 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>Fascinating theory, Keith.
>
>We can only imagine how much better would have been the dancing of
>everyone from Petroleo to El Chino, had they not been cruelly handicapped
>by being born too early to benefit from the teachings of Gustavo Naveira,
>Mauricio Castro and the like.
>
>;) ;)
>
>--
>Chris
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:50 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Keith wrote:
> But it surely can't just be coincidence that in the biographies of all
> of today's great young tango dancers, they list their teachers.
All of those who likewise are tango workers, you mean. Indeed, it is not
coincidence - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme .
As for the old milongueros under discussion, no you will not find them
with biographies listing their teachers, if any.
--
Chris
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 19:41:51 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA025664FF64@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Chris>The only historical evidence I've seen or heard of professional teachers
>of social tango to natives of that time is of dance schools that served a
>minority who had no family or friends to learn from
I don't know a great deal about the history of tango, but a teacher out of BsAs who started dancing in the late 70s, early 80s, before the resurgence of tango, recently gave me the benefit of her recollections. She told me that when she started dancing, the milongueros of the time all danced completely differently. She said at one of the infrequent milongas of the time you might only dance with three leaders all night and she could remember being amazed at how different those three leaders could be. Apparently the leaders were very conscious not to dance the same steps as other well known dancers, because that would be like infringing their copyright or admitting the other guy was better or something like that.
Interestingly, at that time there was only one regular milonga a month (Sunderland) and it was a revelation apparently when a weekly practica started up. Its hard to imagine BsAs without El Beso, Canning etc. I think she said Gricel was the only one of the current milongas running back then, but it mainly played cumbia (?) with just one set of tango maybe as a break! I believe this particular teacher was classically trained so that is how she came to dancing, but she said no one thought to work at tango in any formal way back in the early 80s because there was no expectation anyone outside of Argentina would ever be interested in it or that anyone could ever make a living out of it.
She said that by comparison, the leaders of today are very similar one to another with just what she described as 'some variations' between dancers. So that is an objective evaluation of differences between modern leaders who might model themselves on Javier, Julio, Chicho, etc from someone who is in a position to make a comparison between modern tango leaders and the milongueros of the 80s. This tendancy to standardisation is not all down to teachers and individual performers I am sure. A dance form must just mature over time and modern technology would hasten that process. Youtube, for instance, would have an enormous impact. Take the colgada craze of a couple of years ago. They came from nowhere and suddenly everyone was dancing them. The craze has subsided, but now they are an accepted part of the standard tango repertoire, with a pretty standard way for them to be led and accepted variations to fit them into various different social dancing situations. So take your pick!
of who you want to model yourself on. Maybe it doesn't really make much difference anyway.
Victor Bennetts
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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:34:38 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
--- Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So, you're CERTAIN that Mash will be far superior than
> everyone in the world who learns tango just by
> dancing? Damn! I want Mash's autograph! ;o)
So TFH and Chris, UK, have either of you ever danced with a
guy who only learned tango by just dancing? I have. With
old Argentine guys who have danced for years. It's not so
fun. The ones I have enjoyed took lessons or went to
practicas with other guys. They didn't simply dance at the
milongas.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:58 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> So TFH and Chris, UK, have either of you ever danced with a
> guy who only learned tango by just dancing?
Does Tete count?
> I have. With old Argentine guys who have danced for years.
> It's not so fun.
You should hear what they say about you, Trini.
--
Chris
PS
> The popular misconception re Gardel is well
> illustrated by Chris's contribution.
Why thank you, Andy! ;)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:40:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > So TFH and Chris, UK, have either of you ever danced
> with a guy who only learned tango by just dancing?
>
> Does Tete count?
A few months ago in Ann Arbor, Tete was good enough to give
a charla on tango. He mentioned learning with friends and
how he would get hit on the head by the older kids if he
wasn't doing it right. So, he didn't learn by "just
dancing".
That's the same with all of the older gentlemen with whom I
found dancing pleasurable. They went to practicas when
they were younger or were taught by their parents or
friends.
> > I have. With old Argentine guys who have danced for
> years. It's not so fun.
>
> You should hear what they say about you, Trini.
They've been complimentary to me and have even ask for
second tandas, thank you.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 00:14 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> he would get hit on the head by the older kids ...
> So, he didn't learn by "just dancing".
You aren't familiar with the "hit on the head" dance move that was all the
rage when Tete was a kid? ;)
Really Trini, you're slipping. You could be teaching it to your pupils in
seminars for $50 a time!
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:44:13 +0100
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
>> I have. With old Argentine guys who have danced for years.
>> It's not so fun.
>>
>
> You should hear what they say about you, Trini.
>
>
Well, there goes oximoron #2.
If the marvellous milonguero is able to please any female dancer with a
working pair of legs and enough willingness to _try_ to follow, then how
come that it comes up so often that if a girl doesn't enjoy dancing with
a (usually older Argentine) milonguero, it is her fault. (ohh, and it
does come up...)
I see nice little castle made of thin air here. Good old sentimental
type of "traditional" tango is nice the same way as a 1940s car is nice.
It has the style, the form and all the nostalgia. It is so nice, that
you might even accept how badly it sucks to drive it without a servo (it
is part of the experience, no?), that it has no air conditioning
(breathe in the ambience!), that it is guzzling fuel like a Boeing 747
(it has that ancient power) or that in case of even a low speed frontal
crash, you'd be dead no matter what (the danger of the wild)...
If you accept that tango is for both parties to feel great, but you
believe that learning must be done through trial and error and must be
personality driven, then you must also accept that there is no such
thing as a good dancer. There are only matching couples. It stems from
the basis assumptions: a good dancer must make the partner feel great,
but he may only use his own resources. Also, because of the added
stylistic restraints, this dancer will not be able to please all
partners. There will be partners who have different needs. So there is
no single measurement for being a good dancer, therefore the only thing
you can estabilish from someone, that X is a very _popular_ dancer,
which is completely performance based. However, this type of performance
will never be influenced by either preferred style, technique, preferred
teachers or the lack of them, only the hard facts, whether partners love
to dance with them or not.
Of course, this will not allow anyone to protect their egos through
creating artificial classification system to justify that what they do
is great and all others are loosers. Most Argentines I talked to never
classified tango in absolute terms. They classified individual people or
their styles. And mostly these classifications were moving along the "I
like it - Don't like it" line (and there was an interesting twist of
this that went like "I like it, so it means it's great!" - of course
with more explanation, but if you approach it with a little cynism and
discard all definitions that were recursive...).
Maybe there is one generalization there: foreigners suck at tango. :)
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-24-071
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:16:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
--- Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote a lot in a
previous post that gets me to thinking ....
Here's a much better psychology to have in dance:
If any of my partners has a bad dance, or sucks then,
it wasn't that she was a bad dancer or she sucks!
Rather, if any of my partners has a bad dance, then,
it was me who did not find a good connection with her.
Therefore, if anyone didn't have a great dance with a
milonguero, it's best that the milonguero looks at it
as his short-coming and the follower should look at it
as her short-coming.
That's the way that I improve my dance. I see
everything as something that I can improve. Like I
said, "Women can dance!" It's up to me to find a
connection with each and every one of them.
... where's that "Don't Blame the Follower" thread?
...
Be a better friend, newshound, and
